What misogyny?

[BainsBane]

People sometimes ask what misogyny exists online. Of course there are extreme examples, rape threats, stalking, death threats, but it can also be more pervasive. The best-known definition of misogyny is hatred of women, but it can also refer to a pervasive climate of sexism.

Macquarie Dictionary added "entrenched prejudice of women" to augment the established "hatred of women," according to the BBC. The expanded definition will appear in the next edition, the Australian reported.

Macquarie Editor Sue Butler said (Australian Prime Minister Julia) Gillard's remarks remarks highlight how the term has evolved from a pathological loathing of the gender. "We decided that we had the basic definition, hatred of women, but that's not how misogyny has been used for about the last 20, 30 years, particularly in feminist language," she told ABC Radio. "Sexist does seem to be moving towards this description of surface features and misogynist applies to the underlying attitude."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18/julia-gillard-misogyny-definition_n_1979009.html

Misogyny can be extreme and intensive or chronic and pervasive. Among the positions some feminists identify with sexism and misogyny are the following:


Insisting the SCOTUS Hobby Lobby decision isn't a big deal
Insisting men should have the right to compel a woman to abort a fetus
Insisting a man's having to pay child support equates with the state's efforts to prohibit abortion
Insisting men are more oppressed than women
Adopting the GOP idea of forcible rape vs. other rape and insisting the later (usually child rape) is less serious.
Insisting that large numbers of women invent false rape charges
Insisting rapists should not be punished with jail time
Frequently taking the side of accused rapists over their victims
Insisting women's issues and feminism aren't important and don't constitute real politics
Insisting women who object to rape porn or prostitution are uptight right-wingers
Calling feminists prudes and Puritans
the sex-negative label
Calling women c...t and b....s
A whole slew of derogatory or sexualized comments about women's bodies
Portraying a view of women that makes it clear someone sees their only purpose as to provide them sex
anti-choice positions
opposing ACA's covering of women's reproductive care
blaming women for their own sexual assaults
arguing that violence against women isn't important
arguing that rape isn't a societal problem
Insisting a misogynistic mass murderer had real concerns about how bad off men have it today
denying sexism and misogyny
arguing that women in the US should be content with what they have
Citing a study held out by an MRA big-wig that claims women say no when they really mean yes
Insisting consent is "elastic"
Insisting that consent is assumed.
Insisting there is no such thing as male privilege
Men telling women they aren't real feminists because they disagree with them on an issue like porn or prostitution.

[niyad]

1. it is really depressing that we keep having to explain this over and over and. . .

[el_bryanto]

2. On the plus side it's possible that a few more people catch on each time

I mean I have to admit that I haven't always been where I am on some of those issues - in particularly on white privilege and male privilege - the first time i was presented with the idea I rejected it out of hand - but I've come to a more accurate understanding of the world over time.

Hopefully each time this discussion happens a few more people start looking at things differently.

Bryant

[BainsBane]

3. Right. Weren't you the one who posted the OP in HOF

Saying you thought members had exaggerated the level of misogyny, but when you saw responses to the SI business, you realized otherwise?

[el_bryanto]

5. If I did it was a long time ago - but it is certainly possible.

As I have had my eyes opened over the time being here. Sometimes people do say stupid things without thinking, but when they double and triple down, their real opinion of women becomes pretty clear.

Bryant

[KitSileya]

35. No, that was Bjorn_Against

But el_bryanto is a consistent poster on the progressive side of gender politics. A good ally to have.

[BainsBane]

38. Okay, thanks

Yes, both are very cool guys.

[Gormy Cuss]

87. If only there were a way to explain it only once...

say by emulating Fark and including it in the TOS.

[seabeyond]

88. not like the whole of the net has not exploded on this issue. women demanding more....

not less. hmmmmm

[cyberswede]

96. There's a thought!

[AverageJoe90]

4. Some truth here. With a few caveats, however.

Insisting women who object to rape porn or prostitution are uptight right-wingers

Rape porn is pretty much opposed by everyone, but yes, sadly, it is true that the large majority of people opposed to legalized prostitution are very much uptight right-wingers(usually men), and has very largely been a right-wing cause for most of this country's history. Of course, to be fair, there are legitimate reasons to disagree with prostitution, but history tells us that right-wing social reactionaries have been at the forefront of keeping it illegal.

the sex-negative label

Sex negativity is a real thing, to be truthful; I learned that firsthand when I first became a feminist thru the YouTube community a little while back(divinity33372 is one person I learned from in particular).

Insisting there is no such thing as male privilege

Well, here's the thing: many feminists actually DON'T believe in male "privilege" per se.

Calling feminists prudes

To be fair, this label can be abused, and when it is, it should be called out. There are, however, a few feminists who truly could be called prudes.

With that said, however, there's no doubt that misogyny and other types of sexism remain a problem in society in general, and Julia Gillard deserves some real kudos for standing up.

[el_bryanto]

8. If they don't believe in male privilege than what is the point to their feminism?

I don't really understand that. Male privilege is the concept that males get some bonuses from society because they are males. Legal bonuses and social bonuses - if you think that the sexes are pretty much equal - what sort of feminism are you practicing?

Bryant

[BainsBane]

11. I think the issue there is the same with objecting to white privilege

They want to believe that misogyny and sexism, like racism, is all about others, like Republicans. The term privilege implies they benefit in some way, and they like to pretend the problem is entirely external to them.

[BainsBane]

10. Because you are the ultimate authority about women's rights and concerns.

[LeftyMom]

18. Dude, free money. nt

[AverageJoe90]

21. Erm....what, exactly?

eom.

[LeftyMom]

22. Go check your replies from yesterday. The internet wants to make you an offer you can't refuse. nt

[JTFrog]

25. Thread win. n/t

[cyberswede]

32. !

[XemaSab]

71. That was my first thought, too

[Gormy Cuss]

84. Cha-ching! n/t

[seabeyond]

89. wha??? i do not get it. i want in. someone link???? nt

[Gormy Cuss]

94. A variant of the ALS ice bucket challenge

where the choice is to refrain from saying something or pay $50 for the privilege each time. Or the opposite, get paid to shut up.

see here, the whole subthread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5452606

[seabeyond]

95. omg... lol lol. thank you gormy. nt

[BainsBane]

122. I just read that other thread

So I finally get the joke. Yeah, if only.

[BainsBane]

19. Why should a few feminists be called prudes?

What makes you think you have a right to shame women's sexuality? How can you claim to be a feminist while engaging in sexual shaming of women?

Sex negative is an insult and is intended as such, just as you used prude in your post to insult feminists who dare to espouse views that don't conform to your demands.

[gollygee]

20. No no no

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 10:52 AM - Edit history (1)

"Prude" is the exact same as "slut" only in reverse. But they are both about putting women "in their place" by slamming her about her sexuality. There is no legitimate use for either word. Sex-negative is the exact same thing, but trying to sound more intelligent.

The rest is equally idiotic, but I had to call that out.

[treestar]

80. +1

[Gormy Cuss]

90. +1 n/t

[Scootaloo]

23. *Checks watch* Right on time, AverageJoe

[JustAnotherGen]

151. To Be Honest

To Tell You The Truth -

That's a fair and accurate assessment.

[redruddyred]

26. I'm left-winger,

and I believe in the nordic model. prostitution is nothing but sexual abuse imo and has no place in a civilized society. it's not about regulating morality, it's about human decency. repubs have it right on that one.

"There are, however, a few feminists who truly could be called prudes."
it's likely that they're also victms of sexual abuse in which case your label is misplaced...

"Well, here's the thing: many feminists actually DON'T believe in male "privilege" per se. "
blatantly false.

[AverageJoe90]

27. I think the Nordic model has some upsides to it.

But I don't think it'd work too well here in the States, though, to be honest with you. Culture's too different, it seems.

[redruddyred]

34. what is that supposed to mean?

we're too far back in the Dark Ages to agree that women are not a commodity, to be bought or sold? or perhaps you are unwilling to relinquish your right to buy sex, free of legal harrassment?

women go to prison for being hookers. prison. they have kids who need them, but they're in prison instead.

furthermore, prostitution is primarily a crime of poverty, althought there is also a sexual abuse route. these women are victims, not criminals, and ought to be treated as such.

[AverageJoe90]

37. May I try to clarify a few things?

I am all for helping women who want to get out of the sex trade, btw.
However, though, if I may ask, what of those women who became sex workers entirely on their own prerogative, and actually enjoy their work? They are out there.

In any case, I do agree with you on this: these women, regardless of their situation, are not criminals. At all. However, though, I've come to believe that the stigmatization of prostitution is actually part of the problem. By legalizing sex work(and doing it right), we can cut down on victimization.

In all truthfulness, however, I believe that this is only one step. Cultural changes need to happen as well; then maybe our dream can be achieved.

[redruddyred]

40. not from what I've read.

most recently a memoir of an irish woman who was prostituted as a teenager. I'm not sure she'll ever get over it. by and large the sex industry is exploitive, as the women who are considered most "f*ckable" are the very youngest ones.

wish you would clarify a bit on why you think the nordic model would not work here.

[shaayecanaan]

148. Probably best to ask the sex workers themselves

"Its bad to have to sell sex to pay the rent. Its worse to be homeless because one can no longer sell sex."

I imagine that the Nordic model works reasonably well in Nordic countries because those countries have good services and adequate safety nets for people to live on in the absence of income that they may have made from prostitution.

The United States has neither of those things.

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/aug/31/three-sex-workers-stage-protest-at-festival-of-dangerous-ideas

[redruddyred]

149. where do you think this is coming from?

I read their blogs. check it out: http://theprostitutionexperience.com/

so you are saying that women ought to prostitute themselves because there is not the political will to help them find other options? that's outrageous.

but that's not what's keeping women in prostitution; in fact they're often physically, economically coerced into doing so. what doesn't make sense is to penalize the victims.

andrea dworkin believes that the economic oppression of women is such so that men will have easy access to sex (if by paying for it) and I think she's absolutely right.

there will be women who will say prostitution is okay just as there are women who are against feminism. that doesn't mean that it doesn't benefit them tho (they're just too ignorant to realize).

[shaayecanaan]

150. Your post is probably one of the most misogynistic things I've read here...

particularly this part:-

"they're just too ignorant to realize"

I'm glad they have someone like you to look after their interests; clearly they are incapable of thinking for themselves.

so you are saying that women ought to prostitute themselves because there is not the political will to help them find other options? that's outrageous.

I am uncomfortable depriving people of their income unless I am convinced that those other options are already being provided. That was the "other half" of the Nordic model, the part that Americans conveniently forget.

But by all means take your message to the streets, pitch it to some sex workers if you like. They will no doubt greet you as a liberator.

[redruddyred]

154. and suggesting that prostitution is an acceptable profession

for impoverished women isn't? come on now.

I have friends who were hookers, and they freaking hated it. I've never met a single person who entered that profession willingly. and, yes, there are alternatives, but not when one's piece of crap boyfriend is pressuring you to get that money now.

but you are correct that there is a cultural problem, esp when men mistake other working women for hookers as well. in these parts of the country, avoiding the profession is indeed inescapable.

[shaayecanaan]

155. I'll tell you a story

There was once a liberal reformer who took umbrage at the fact that there were children working in the textile mills. This liberal was a great campaigner against child labor, and over a long period of time persuaded the textile mills to stop employing children. This was considered a great success by all of his bourgeois liberal friends, and the liberal reformer basked in the satisfaction of a job well done.

A short time later the liberal was walking in the street when he was stopped by a child. "Are you the person who stopped children working in the factories", the child asked. "yes", he beamed proudly, leaning down to smile at her. The child cuffed him across the face as hard as she could. "Because of you, I can no longer work. We only had just enough before, and now without my wage my whole family has been sent to the spikehouse."

It is very blithe of you to insist that there are always alternatives, when for many women there simply aren't any, or if there are they are even worse. When I lived in Africa, I would see half the township women, waist deep in offal and shit trying to collect enough recyclables to eke together enough money for a meal. The other half would be trying to turn tricks. Who are you to deem one path more "acceptable" than the other?

[redruddyred]

156. yeah that's how ayn rand got her point across too.

fiction.

poor fiction, at that.

[shaayecanaan]

157. It is a truth played out every day

create the alternatives before, not after, you deprive people of their livelihoods.

[redruddyred]

167. do note that we no longer have child workers

and I'd say that children are not the worse off for it.
maybe even the better.

[gollygee]

158. Are you really bemoaning the end of child labor?

[shaayecanaan]

159. The end of child labor?

When did this happen?

[gollygee]

160. OK so children's lives were made horrible by child labor laws because they couldn't work anymore

but they're still working.

You need to find a nice group of libertarians to discuss this stuff with.

[shaayecanaan]

161. Yes

International Labour Organisation (ILO) suggests poverty is the greatest single cause behind child labour.[15] For impoverished households, income from a child's work is usually crucial for his or her own survival or for that of the household. Income from working children, even if small, may be between 25 to 40% of these household income. Other scholars such as Harsch on African child labour, and Edmonds and Pavcnik on global child labour have reached the same conclusion.[14][61][62]

Lack of meaningful alternatives, such as affordable schools and quality education, according to ILO,[15] is another major factor driving children to harmful labour. Children work because they have nothing better to do. Many communities, particularly rural areas where between 60–70% of child labour is prevalent, do not possess adequate school facilities. Even when schools are sometimes available, they are too far away, difficult to reach, unaffordable or the quality of education is so poor that parents wonder if going to school is really worth it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour

[gollygee]

162. OK so you're talking about American child labor laws being bad because children can't work

legally in America anymore, but now you're talking about internationally, in places that might not even have child labor laws.

[shaayecanaan]

164. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse...

Last edited Mon Sep 8, 2014, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)

but to give you the benefit of the doubt - the elimination of child labour in the UK was successful because they provided families and children with alternatives - a living wage for the adults and comprehensive education for children.

Likewise, any success that the Nordic model has had (and recent indications are that it has not been dramatically successful) is because it provided sex workers with alternatives.

Simply banning either child labourers' or sex workers' method of subsistence is not doing either of them any favours, it is just giving them one more kick when they're down.

[redruddyred]

169. actually, the social safety net is failing our children

but they still don't work... because we've made it illegal.
hookers can find other avenues of opportunity. the chronicallly ill community goes camping, for instance.
anyhow, if prostitution is so great, how come they have to kidnap 15 year old girls to service truck drivers? how come the kids escape at the first chance they get? it's a job, right? a good job? a good enough job for fifteen year old girls?

[shaayecanaan]

170. Sure...

and people can't buy cocaine or pot anymore, because we've made it illegal.

hookers can find other avenues of opportunity. the chronicallly ill community goes camping, for instance.

So instead of telling them to eat cake, you'd tell them to go camping. I'm sure they'd be thrilled.

For the most part, the absence of child labour in the US is mostly because the industries that used to employ child labour have moved overseas (textiles, light manufacturing, etc) - where they employ someone else's kids.

To get back to my original point, there is a vast difference between the US and Sweden (not least the fact that sex workers in Sweden even before the laws were almost all migrants). You can't simply transplant a law from one place to another without taking into account those differences.

[redruddyred]

172. and yet they make do somehow

I think you're seriously underestimating the women who make a living from prostitution.

[Hippo_Tron]

163. I'd suggest listening to this episode of Dan Savage's show where he talks to sex workers...

http://www.savagelovecast.com/episodes/387#.VA2cvGRdVhg

There are so many women, girls, and less often boys and men who are forced into the sex work either by trafficking or by having no economic alternatives.

But there are people out there who choose to engage in sex work, simply because they want to.

It's not a black and white issue.

[redruddyred]

168. my sense of it is that it's willingness coupled with poor alternatives.

by the same token, I've had friends who have decided to avoid prostitution, and have done so successfully.
sex work is a trap. for many women, most of their profits go to pimps. some of them do no better than low-wage retail workers.
and then there are the cultural factors, the "grooming"; sexual abuse of women throughout childhood, harrassment on the job. one comes to view oneself finally as just a piece of meat, an object.

[TDale313]

36. Ya know what?

Grown-ass women don't actually need you to explain misogyny to them or tell them how they're doing feminism wrong (or right, for that matter) Just so ya know.

[treestar]

79. IMO it's one of those politics can make strange allies

Feminists vs. fundies are against porn and prostitution for different reasons. In fact, there is little alliance.

[AverageJoe90]

102. There is some truth to that.

To be truthful, I think it's mostly that many anti-porn and anti-prostitution feminists probably honestly don't realize the past history behind the two movements, as both of them have indeed primarily been supported by right-wingers, including some of the type, that feminists would normally be totally opposed to.

[seabeyond]

81. averagejoe, honestly, you gave us another example how you do not get womens issues.

you are consistent, anyway, tbh.

[AverageJoe90]

100. "how you do not get womens issues." I actually do, thank you very much.

I'm sorry that you may perhaps so strongly disagree with certain beliefs & views of mine that you feel compelled to say such things, but I'm afraid it doesn't change the facts here. Nor does it diminish my understanding of women's issues(which isn't perfect, of course, I'll admit that.).

[seabeyond]

104. if you feel the need, privilege, entitlement degrading women thru sexuality, then no, you do not

[AverageJoe90]

105. Degrading? Where have I degraded women? nt

[boston bean]

115. by telling them how wrong they are about their experiences

and how they verbalize those experiences is wrong, and that you know best, and you don't stop and keep going on and on and on and on and on...

[AverageJoe90]

116. You need proof for these allegations.

I have never ONCE, by the way, denied that people have had certain personal experiences. In fact, quite the opposite, as I've actually tried directly and openly empathizing with people on several occasions.....which hasn't always worked too well with some.

[boston bean]

117. They are personal experiences that many women have. It's not just one woman or one black person

(as you have this same twisted thinking in regards to black persons) who experiences this bullshit.

Don't you bring issues, that are important to groups of people and movements are built on down, to an individual level in an effort dismiss and diminish their experiences. That must be how you allow yourself to do this. You think it's just one person here, one person there... Well, you couldn't be more WRONG.

You just do not stop. You just gotta keep on going telling everyone how wrong they are and how right you are, in the face of their lived group experiences that they relate to. You are outside that group and your posting shows you don't get it.

And it is offensive and degrading to people when you keep telling them they are wrong and you are right when you don't even have to walk in their shoes. It's one thing to understand and relate to groups shared experiences, but you don't think those experience exist on anything other than a few certain persons personal experiences. That is offensive and degrading, to have a white male tell black persons, and tell women, that the words they use to define their group/shared experiences is wrong. It takes a lot of chutzpah and I've had my fill.

PLEASE STOP.

[nomorenomore08]

145. As with other topics, you seem to come at this solely through your own narrow prism.

And while you may claim to be open to others' views, your unequivocal insistence upon your own (very possibly erroneous) interpretation of things, indicates otherwise. Maybe in other contexts this approach wouldn't be so bad, but as a man discussing feminism, or a white person discussing racism, it's bound to paint you in a bad light.

[Glassunion]

6. But what about misandry?

You know I open every difficult jar and take out the trash every Tuesday AND Thursday!!!!1!1!!

Oh woe is meeeeeee!

Oh! And I HAVE to kill all the bugs!!!

[delete_bush]

50. My brother from a different mother...

Do you also..... have to water the plants/flowers? Grocery shop?

[betsuni]

7. Oh, this is going to be good! *runs into kitchen to make popcorn* n/t

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

9. No it's not.

[mindwalker_i]

14. No Beavis

That will also suck.

[Jamaal510]

28. Uh huh huh...cool...uh huh huh...nt

[mindwalker_i]

41. ....

[chervilant]

33. Your post is not amusing.

Nor is the subject of misogyny herein, or throughout our species. In most societies those in power (men) have codified the derision and disdain with which we women are made to believe we are soiled, manipulative, evil, and less-than. This institutionalized power imbalance is damaging to all.

But, you go ahead and munch your popcorn. I doubt you've an interest in addressing misogyny in this forum.

[betsuni]

43. What? I'm a huge fan of BainsBane and enjoy these threads

because of the smack-downs the misogynists get. But no, you know best, I'm a big sexist jerk just like in all my comments, which I'm sure you have checked some of, because you're confident of my interests and knowledge. This is why I fear posting here, because a simple sentence is taken in some sort of horribly negative way. Thanks a lot.

[BainsBane]

46. I didn't take it badly because I have a sense of your broader posting history

but I can see why she interpreted it as she did.

[betsuni]

48. Well, I don't get it.

I don't understand the other replies to my comment either. I don't get anything. I am Internet forum challenged.

[BainsBane]

49. I think it has less to do with your response per se

than the fact it is so often the guys who are, shall we say, less progressive on women's issues who respond with the popcorn emoticon.
I don't know about your other comment. I'll have to look at it.

[betsuni]

55. I mean the same comment's replies,

when I said this was going to be good, they said "No, it isn't" and "No Beavis." I've never seen that show, those references mean nothing to me. Did those guys think I was one of them? Don't know. The popcorn remark I've seen all over, on Gawker, Jezebel, here (by women), everywhere and it simply means an exciting thread. I haven't seen it only used as mean snark on DU at all. Now I know. Don't mention popcorn or get nasty comments.

[BainsBane]

57. I don't understand the Beevis comments myself

so I'm with you there. Usually it's snark here. I think that is why she responded that way. You're correct that it's unwise to jump to conclusions that way. I've had similar things done to me about innocuous comments. But I also know that it appears as snark so often in threads about women, that I can understand where she was coming from. I think we just ought to chalk it up to miscommunication.

I have no clue about that Beevis exchange though.

[betsuni]

78. By the way,

Just one of the many examples of the popcorn comment by others, July 10th of this year -- "Fred M appreciation thread": "Pass the popcorn, will you, my dear rug?" "Of course ... and have a Rasinet." Why is the popcorn comment fine for some but not for me? It's like the song, "They're passing popcorn, dear, but not for me." I am sad, and now obsessed with popcorn comments.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Thanks for the info. nt

[ancianita]

15. Presumers of male privilege & power maximize their political/class power, minimize women's power.

Through "speech." Your above list of verbs reveals the degrees of manipulation and silencing going on.

Presumers of male privilege tell women how to think in ways that not only preserve their world views, narratives and values, but make sure they out-earn and therefore outspend whatever it takes to amplify their message, drowning out all other voices.



Playground bully dominance behaviors, misogyny's toolbox, are constantly in evidence in adult settings -- commanding space, public communication content and style, political interests, pay grades, opportunities.

[BainsBane]

47. "commanding public space, public communication content and style"

Including in this very thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Is your intent to shame people out of those views or take the teeth out of the term "misogyny"?

If the definition of a misogynist is one who denies misogyny... then the house of cards has completely fallen apart.

This has become a self-parody.

[BainsBane]

17. Someone asked for examples of misogyny

I provided a list. Someone else PMed me to suggest I make it an OP. I did so. My intent is to show the many ways in which misogyny manifests itself. Yes, denying misogyny is key to it's perpetration, just as denying racism is key to the maintenance of white supremacy.

As the Australian dictionary noted, they have updated the definition to accord with the word's use among feminists for the past thirty years. The point is a persistent climate. Anyone can make an untoward comment or hold an unfortunate position, but when people double- and tripe-down and persistently show their hostility to women's concerns, they choose to expose themselves. Obviously spreading MRA arguments is a clear indicator of misogyny.

[MannyGoldstein]

54. Can you provide a link to the request for examples?

And no, "call outs" are not against the rules.

Thank in advance.

[BainsBane]

56. No, there is no reason to

It has no bearing on the substance of this OP.

[MannyGoldstein]

58. Then why did you feel compelled to bring it up? nt

[BainsBane]

63. Are we really at this level, Manny?

Do I need to explain to you what you just read? This really is tiresome. You're obviously not interested in the subject matter, so don't strain yourself.

[MannyGoldstein]

119. You're avoiding my question

Interesting.

[boston bean]

120. She may not have answered your

leading/loaded question, but she did not ignore you.

No one owes you an answer. The OP and her response are quite self explanatory. Aint much interesting about it, or at least in the way I presume you mean interesting.

She didn't give you an answer, or she gave an answer that was unsatisfactory to you. Happens a lot.

[pnwmom]

64. Why do you feel compelled to write any of your OP's? n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

118. You either didn't read through the thread

Or one of us has a reading comprehension problem.

[MineralMan]

134. Why ask that question, Manny?

Clearly the poster had a reason for posting. You may have actually read the OP. Whatever her reasons for posting, they are her reasons.

She is not obligated in any way to do things the way you would prefer. She has said so. Continuing to ask could be construed as badgering.

Perhaps you should start your own thread.

[JustAnotherGen]

152. Thank you mineral man

This is kind of the crux of the op - a little gem in an excellent response -


She is not obligated in any way to do things the way you would prefer. She has said so.

We are allowed to speak and write our truth here, there, online, in real life -

And we don't need to get clearance from anyone on how we express ourselves.

This op needs no links - its bigger than DU.

[ismnotwasm]

29. What has?

You're not making sense

[BainsBane]

66. Turns out the shame rhetoric

comes from a well-known source. http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/how-some-feminist-shaming-tactics-discredit-feminist-theory/

[redruddyred]

24. was it andrea dworkin who insisted that anti-feminists were in fact misogynists?

well, anyhow, she was right.

[Harmony Blue]

30. Shaming tactics never work

and haven't worked the last 20 years. Maybe time to try something different which is more inclusive instead of divisive?

The other day I was trying to wrap my head around as to why the WAF movement is gaining traction lately and I think this is a textbook example of why. But I will let the women in the WAF be more specific about their feelings and opinions. Just an observation of mine as an outsider.

[BainsBane]

39. Divisive?

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 01:24 AM - Edit history (2)

As opposed to telling people a mass murderer who hated women had a point? http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4995511 You think that was unifying? Women, if only you would provide sex on demand to every psycho that comes along, they wouldn't need to kill you.


Part of what is revealing about the shaming comment is that it assumes everything is written for your benefit. You can't imagine that women might want to talk about issues themselves. A number of people have said they find the list helpful. I can assure you, I would never in a million years imagine I could persuade you on women's rights or anything else. You have made your views on the subject perfectly clear. This is intended for people who care. You don't own this site or me. I'll post what I want. If you don't like it, put me on ignore.

I have no idea what WAF's are. Given your approval of them, I'm guessing they are similar to Red Pill Reddit types.

[Harmony Blue]

143. You are projecting what your objectives are

but my motivation to post is entirely different. My goal when I post is to make people think and it is often offering different opinions and view points which offers critical thinking. If you want to continue to make posts making bold black and white proclamations you may do so. A lot of feminists that are third wave have problems with a lot of your list s well as WAF (Women against Feminism). But I will let them speak up as to why that is the case.

Disagreement makes beliefs stronger not weaker because it forces you to think in new ways to reinforce, re-affirm or verify your beliefs or belief system.

[BainsBane]

45. Let's examine your efforts at "unifying"

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 02:06 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024995511
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025177737
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025187058
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024831601
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024120155
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024175836
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025188947
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528019
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024550887
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024947948

[davidpdx]

59. ....

Shaming tactics never work
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5459033

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I think openly advocating against feminist should be a ban-able offense. This poster's history of attacking feminists is rude, insensitive, over the top and inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Aug 29, 2014, 06:27 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post wasn't attacking feminism, instead was discussing the feelings contained in the parent post served to increase the popularity of the Women Against Feminism Movement (WAF). The post discusses the issue without launching into any attacks on anyone. It is on topic. Finally I would remind the reporter that this forum is for the discussion of democracy and politics, and is not strictly a feminist board.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "openly advocating against feminis(m)" is in no way an accurate description of this post.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A different point of view.
Not enough to hide.

[NaturalHigh]

166. Who would possibly think that post should be hidden?

If someone posts an opinion on a discussion board, there is a good chance that someone else will post a differing opinion. Hence the "discussion" on said board.

At least the alerter got a 24-hour break from alerting thanks to the 7-0 verdict.

[alp227]

103. "inclusive instead of divisive"?

Sorry, sometimes truth and calling shit shit outweighs comforting and accommodation.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. Then there's slut shaming and acting like women are not as smart as men....

And those that are,...are acting like men.

These two are related as there is an accompanying desire to punish the woman for offenses against men.

[BainsBane]

42. Yes, good points.

[Purveyor]

51. BainsBane = Ignore List Enough already. eom

[BainsBane]

53. What? You mean someone with your fascination

with all things Putin isn't interested in learning about misogyny? Say it ain't so.

[BainsBane]

52. With two responses using the word "shaming"

I had to look it up. Low and behold, where did I find it but at A Voice for Men.

Yet, for decades, perhaps longer, one of the most reliable shaming tactics feminists and other women’s advocates have used to bully or silence men (and some women), is the accusation of misogyny. Say something a feminist doesn’t like? You’ll get called a misogynist. Criticize feminism’s theories or actions? Misogynist. Disagree with feminism’s analysis of a problem, or object to their proposed solution? You filthy misogynist. You’re only saying that because you hate women. Even if you’re a woman, you don’t get let off the hook–nope, you suffer from internalized misogyny, dontcha know? And oddly enough, up until not that long ago, this shaming tactic was really effective–especially against men

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/how-some-feminist-shaming-tactics-discredit-feminist-theory/

Now, I'm sure it's just a total coincidence that a couple of DUers would just happen to invoke language used at Paul Elam's site.

[BainsBane]

61. Exactly

That's why the list includes everyone whose favorite color isn't purple, who doesn't love to swim, and who doesn't know dogs are far better pets than cats.

[BainsBane]

65. This is supposedly your second post

and you're telling me to leave? You're tired of my divisive bullshit and know I'm friends with redqueen?
Dyn-o-mite!

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Julia Gillard's speech was one of the most awesome speech's I've ever seen in Parliament...

Every word she said was true. I disagreed with some of her stances (opposition to gay marriage and blind support of Israel) but she was amazing with that speech. She scored so much abuse and contempt because she's a woman that no male PM would ever have got. From insulting her because she didn't have children (honestly, who cares?) to Tony Abbott standing beside a 'ditch the witch' sign that some homegrown tea party types had at a protest...

Here's the clip of the entire speech for anyone who never saw it...

I'm in agreement with most of the ones in yr list, but that last one shouldn't be limited to just men. Women have told me I'm not a real feminist because I disagree with them on issues like porn or prostitution.

[Laelth]

68. Thanks for putting together this list.

It's useful.

-Laelth

[theHandpuppet]

69. Excellent post!

[seveneyes]

70. Another take with melody

[stevenleser]

72. I think 95% of this list are excellent points.

But you also included items that are not agreed upon by both male and female feminists and its unfortunate you did that.

By doing so, you actually are saying third wave women are not real feminists and their views are illegitimate.

[boston bean]

74. No, that is not what she said.

She never said once that "third wave women" are not "real feminists".

I would like to understand what the 1.4 examples you are claiming said this.

Within feminism the usage sex negative/sex positive is discussed often on both sides. And if people are honest with themselves, just the wording itself is problematic, ie... positive/negative. The connotation of one denotes something "negative".

However, people using sex negative in a way in which to shame womens sexuality is misogynist if a male or female uses it in that way. Even if they call themselves a feminist, it is misogynist. You know feminists and women are not living in a bubble and society does effect us all. Also, calling women prudes is as bad as calling them sluts.

I suppose those are two examples to which you are referring to?

I'm going to ask that you open your mind a bit and look at this from two sides. Using the terms sex negative/sex positive are not helpful as they focus on women as sexual beings, one in a positive way, another in a negative way. Yes, there is much to be said about women having autonomy and not being viewed as a slut for having sex. But there is also much to be said for turning that back in on women who fight for feminist causes, which like it or not, do include the sex trade, prostitution and pornography. Those are disagreements within feminism, but it doesn't mean someone isn't a feminist, on either side.. The way the wording is used by person will determine if it is misogynist. I think that is what the OP was getting at.

In others words, when people are hip hip hooraying for women they deem to be sex POSITIVE and slamming other women for, in their mind, being sex negative, there is a problem. I would hope you could agree with that.

[stevenleser]

75. It's interesting you say "that's not what she said" and then hit right on the examples.

I don't want this to be about the disagreement, because I agree with the vast majority of this list. But I think including the items on which 2nd and 3rd wave disagree about was not necessary.

[boston bean]

77. I know from reading your prior posting.. and put two and two together.

I am not disagreeing that there are disagreements between feminists. I thought that was clear in my post. I was hoping to get you to possibly see something or get you to listen to something and get you to understand something you might not have taken the time to really absorb.

[BainsBane]

86. What is interesting is that you do not read

My post:

Among the positions some feminists identify with sexism and misogyny are the following:

Violet's post (and you've made it very clear you think her a feminist far superior to me):

I'm in agreement with most of the ones in yr list, but that last one shouldn't be limited to just men. Women have told me I'm not a real feminist because I disagree with them on issues like porn or prostitution.

The last entry on the list which is really at the heart of your critique:

Men telling women they aren't real feminists because they disagree with them on an issue like porn or prostitution.

[stevenleser]

97. I read it thoroughly and found those parts troubling from several standpoints.

To define misogyny you used examples that feminists do not agree about and were absolutely not necessary to define misogyny.

Its like if in the 1960s, African American civil rights movement groups supporting either Dr. King or the Nation of Islam used in a definition of racism, viewpoints that are expressed by the other group with which they don't agree. And then, to make it worse you make the leap, if we are continuing to use the metaphor of the 1960's civil rights groups, that a white supporter of either group is a racist because they support the viewpoints of the other group.

In fact, I don't doubt that such things may have happened on a small scale in the 1960s, but I hope you can see how counterproductive they are.

Third wave feminist beliefs are not misogynist no matter whether men or women express them.

[boston bean]

99. You should try to see this from the other angle, Steve.

Calling women sex negative and prudes and not feminists is doing exactly what you are stating is wrong.

Women who discuss the effects of pornography, prostitution and the sex trade upon women, are not prudes, and they are not sex negative.

As a matter of fact, most feminists agree on many of the issues brought about by the above which are misogynistic, but have disagreements on how to deal with it.

[Rex]

107. Women who discuss the effects of pornography, prostitution and the sex trade upon women

are very good human beings. Human beings with empathy always worry about those that could be suffering from the global flesh trade...I would be very wary of anyone that dismisses those very real threats to all women around the globe.

I've seen men dismiss the flesh trade as not real, that pornography never hurts anyone and that prostitution can be empowering. All three of those (imo) sound like bullshit MRA talking points. SADLY I've even seen it here on DU...which is what most women here are trying to point out (I think).

If it happens HERE on a daily basis (a site for progressives)...just think how prevalent it is in the world-at-large?

And that should be cause for concern imo, not more labeling and dismissal.

[BainsBane]

114. All feminists agree on nothing

No entirely of any group agrees on anything. To insist speech must be uniformly agreed upon to be permissible is to work to delegitimize speech. It is a common and transparent excuse used to silence women's speech that men find threatening or inconvenient. The argument is entirely self-serving, as is your claim you are speaking on behalf of Third Wave feminists. You know that Violet says she agrees with the list, but that doesn't stop you from chastizing me because I dare express ideas that don't serve your interests. You know I said "some feminists." You know I didn't claim to speak for all feminists. What you object to is that I hold ideas that don't meet your approval.

To use your analogy, you go run into the African American forum and tell them they can't post about issues that concern them because not all blacks agree. The difference is most people know that would incredibly offensive. Yet you feel entitled to position yourself as the arbiter of feminism and insist my speech as unacceptable. That is all about male entitlement. Feminism is first and foremost a women's movement. Feminists come from many different schools and hold many different opinions, yet the only people who insist speech that "everyone doesn't agree on" should be silenced are anti-feminists. Moreover, the argument is vapid since no one agrees on anything. It is entirely without logic.

There are many approaches to feminism, and all contribute something. I never called a third wave feminists misogynists. I never said they weren't feminists. I do not believe I have ever once told another woman she wasn't a feminist. I have never once insisted she didn't have a right to express her ideas. I have disagreed, as people do, as is my right and their right.

The points about above are not about other women but men, about situations precisely such as this, where someone like you displays his impenetrable sense of entitlement in announcing what is and isn't acceptable feminist speech. You have NO right to command what women may say and do. Feminists are not put on this planet to cater to you, and your determination to delegitimate my speech because you don't like my views is unacceptable.

You have stepped well over the line. I resent your cynical use of the mantle of feminism to seek to silence speech you disagree with. I will not again discuss this issue with you because I do not accept your unyielding determination to exert control over public discourse on feminism and my right to speech.

[el_bryanto]

76. That's a very clear statement - well worded. nt

[BainsBane]

83. Thanks for the mansplaining, steve

You clearly missed the use of the word "some" in the top. It was not meant to be inclusive.

I'll just point out that a poster who identifies herself as Third Wave endorsed the list. You naturally ignored that for the far more important purpose of putting in her place a woman who isn't the right kind of feminist.

Here we have you, a man, telling me what I am allowed to care about as a feminist. Once again a woman fails to meet her primary responsibility in life. How dare I articulate my own concerns, while failing to realize my only purpose in focus on what men want. I should have realized I have no right to post a list that doesn't pass the approval of my male superiors.

These threads are always useful in that the responses provide real time examples of the points in the OP.

[seabeyond]

85. and actively uses the terms sex negative addressing a group of women on hof.

the thing. we have been talking to each other for years. just like sittin on my porch and saying i am sex negative. fuckin say what? really? is any man going ot get away with that, looking me in the eyes, and telling me i am negative about sex. hey.... just call me a prude. then i think sex is icky.

no no

no passive aggressive there. hey.... i am dealing with a family of passive aggressive. trying to understand it. and like i choose to talk to you, lol. all analytically/logical..... to extreme. so instead of wooo woo trying to do, clinically. lol. we know each. when someone says some, we know. i am not going to pretend otherwise. but... passive aggressive is civil. i have been literally told this. i am deciding we live in a word of passive aggressive. i see nothing civil about it.

[stevenleser]

98. Thanks for the negative gender stereotyping Bains.

I hope you can see yourself in the 1960s metaphor I used above.

[Violet_Crumble]

129. I don't identify as anything, and I didn't endorse yr list. I disagreed with the last bit...

Last edited Sat Aug 30, 2014, 03:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Most of it was stuff that not only feminists, but all left-wingers would agree with. But that last one was something where women have made out I and others who support legalised prostitution and porn aren't really feminists. Y'know, stuff like saying that holding those views are 'anti-feminist' and me being told I care more about pedophiles and rapists than DUers. There's a lot of insults and abuse aimed at women who hold those views on porn and prostitution, and there shouldn't be...

I recall you getting upset when someone called you a second wave feminist. That's when I told you that I don't view myself as anything either, but I'd once done a quiz that said I was third wave. That's in no way identifying myself as anything, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't label me, nor use me to try to score points against a DUer I like a lot...

Thanks...

on edit - another thing. A few feminists are prudes and puritans. There's nothing shocking about saying that. Just like every other group, feminism contains a few very silly types, including some I've seen who have no issue dancing way too close to either embracing transphobia or totally ignoring that those they champion were transphobic. It's no different than what I've found being pro-Palestinian. There's some who are anti-Semitic, and they shouldn't be ignored or protected, because just like feminism, the cause is a good one that doesn't need that shit clinging to it...

[Violet_Crumble]

131. I told you I did a quiz, and I said I identified as a bit of both...

Yep, that bit's there in what you copied and pasted. It's the bit that says ' but after reading about them all, I think there's bits of each that I agree with... '

I'd written a lengthy response, but after the disgusting and lengthy attack on me, all of which is completely untrue, I don't think it deserves a response. One bit in particular really upset me because of things that happened when I was a kid. If I said what I thought of you for saying what you did, I'd end up with a hidden post, and yr just not worth it...

[TBF]

73. Great post -

you have been working hard this week. I hope some of these OPs are getting through to folks.

[Calista241]

82. You forgot to put the fact

That football is on both SATURDAYS and SUNDAYS! Fucking misogynistic bastards.

[seabeyond]

91. wtf are you even talking about?

[BainsBane]

92. It's an attempt to minimize

a comment best ignored.

[seabeyond]

93. it is factually stupid, also. seeing women are approaching at least 50% in usership,

watching, and over 50% i believe in buying the merchandise.

man

us women stepped into another man space they cannot have all to themselves, again.

[GeoWilliam750]

101. Excellent post

Excellent starting list

[BainsBane]

128. Thank you

Feel free to add anything you think appropriate.

[Kurska]

106. "Calling feminists prudes and Puritans"

If someone insists on attempting to control other people's consensual sexual activities, they are being a puritan and or a prude. It has nothing to do with whether they claim to be a feminist or not, especially since those controls restrict female sexuality right along with men's.

Claiming to be a feminist does not give you carte blanche immunity from being called out for seeking to control the genitals of anyone but yourself.

Saying all feminists are prudes or puritans, ridiculous and misogynist. Calling an individual a puritan? Self identification with a political movement never affords someone immunity from criticism that is valid for anyone else, sorry.

Wish you wouldn't ruin your otherwise good list by putting in divisive garbage like that.

[boston bean]

108. is the depiction of something like rape porn, that is ALWAYS non consensual in real life

and the discussion surrounding that make one a prude or a puritan.

Ie, any criticism of that makes one a prude or a puritan? Or are they discussing society and how they feel the existence and market for that is misogynistic?

Same thing goes for porn that films actual shitting in womens mouths, drowning them in the toilet, ripping hair out, punching them in the face, tearing their anus.

Does an objection and discussion surrounding that make one a prude or puritan?

eta in case of a jury... we have to define what it is we are actually discussing to further the conversation. I do not post this to rude or insensitive. I want to define what it is we are actually discussing.

[seabeyond]

109. i understand that we must wrap it all up in a "pretty woman" little bow to make it easily

digestible. applaud it, but do NOT discuss it. is the only way. otherwise, it becomes too offensive on this progressive board and results in a hide.

[Kurska]

110. We're not talking about rape porn or even really porn.

Not liking rape porn doesn't make you a prude or a puritan. Hell, I've never had a problem with criticizing any kind of pornography. You don't like it, more power to you. Advocating banning any kind of fiction though is pretty wrong in my book, though.

We're talking about whether or not calling a feminist a prude or puritan (which is above all a self-designation, given last time I checked no one was handing out official feminist club laminated cards) is misogynistic. Without cause, sure, but what we saw was delivered as an absolute statement.

[boston bean]

111. making judgment about women based on a perceived cultural

stereotype is wrong.

It is the opposite of slut. I assume you don't go around calling women sluts? And if you don't why? I assume it is because it is judging a woman based on her sexuality. Don't then use the opposite to do the same thing.

[Kurska]

121. No one is making a judgement based on a social stereotype

They are making a judgement based on a behavior.

Are you seriously saying a woman can't be puritanical in regards to sexuality? A woman can't be overly controlling and concerned with other people's sexuality? A woman can't be overly judgmental of the sexual practices of others?

The statement has nothing to do with her own sexuality, but how she views the sexuality of others.

[boston bean]

123. people who call women sluts will tell you they are making

a judgment based on behavior. Do you call women sluts? I presume not.

[Kurska]

125. The term slut is about judging a woman's personal sexual behaviors.

What we're talking about is something being judgmental and controlling of someone elses behavior, big ole difference there.

I'm gay, I couldn't give the slightest damn about any woman's sexual behaviors to be honest. Whatever sex they may or may not be having is completely irrelevant to my life. What matters to me is whether someone else is excessively interceding in what is consensual activity of other people.

That is a puritanical mindset to me, nothing to with personal behavior.

[boston bean]

126. and prude is not?

If you say so... lol

[Kurska]

127. Prude is a more troublesome term, I concede that.

One which I've decide probably isn't a good one to use, because of the implication therein.

[seabeyond]

112. a person who is or claims to be easily shocked by matters relating to sex or nudity.

that would be the definition of prude.

this would be the definition of puritan.

Word Origin
noun
1.
a member of a group of Protestants that arose in the 16th century within the Church of England, demanding the simplification of doctrine and worship, and greater strictness in religious discipline: during part of the 17th century the Puritans became a powerful political party.
2.
(lowercase) a person who is strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so.
adjective
3.
of or pertaining to the Puritans.
4.
(lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a moral puritan;

no one on du that i know of fit ether description. though, you try to make it more academic then the reality in the use on du, even the academic version fits no one on du, that i have seen

[Hippo_Tron]

171. Television and movies frequently depict things that don't fly in real life

That's the difference between fantasy and reality. In fantasy, Dirty Harry gets to gun down the bad guys without any consequences to him or to anybody else. In reality, taking a human life has all sorts of consequences morally, emotionally, and legally.

Also in reality, you can't punch someone in the face and shit in their mouth, without their consent. Anyone who does do this should go to prison for a long time. Two consenting adults can, however, carefully choreograph how to role-play this scenario where the person being punched and shit in pretends that they're being forced to do this against their will and the person who is doing the punching and shitting will stop the second that a safe-word is spoken.

The people in that sort of porn have choreography (a script) and safe words while they're engaged in that kind of sex, it's just that the discussion of it isn't shown in the actual film. This creates a fantasy where somebody is getting punched and shit in their mouth without choreography and safe words, even though it isn't really happening (just as Dirty Harry isn't really killing anybody).

Now that being said, here's where we probably come to an agreement. The vast majority of this sort of porn probably isn't being produced for the punch in face and shit in mouth fetish communities. If it was, you would see more men getting punched in the face and having their mouths shit in. It's being produced for the Elliot Rodgers of the world, who like seeing depictions of women being beaten and abused because they hate women. The fact that we have an industry that caters to and profits from this hatred is problematic for me.

I also wouldn't use the terms prude or puritan in these discussions as I do think they carry problematic connotations. The sex positive vs sex negative dichotomy is something I do find hard to get past (though if you have an alternative, I'm all ears). But again, I wouldn't assign sex negative to someone who raises objections to the porn industry.

tl;dr version: There's nothing wrong with producing face punching mouth shitting fetish porn. But the vast majority of porn that depicts this isn't fetish porn, it's hate porn.

[YoungDemCA]

113. The Internet has so much open, blatant misogyny that it can be overwhelming to process it all..

Of course, there are also lots of subtle things that don't seem very significant in and of themselves, but are a part of a broader culture of misogyny that exists online (as you pointed out in your OP).

K&R.

[Wella]

124. Misgyny should be taken as seriously as racism is

Maybe even more so, since it transcends race.

[boston bean]

133. You got a link to someone call you a misogynist over your niece's death?

I would really like to read that.

[boston bean]

136. Oh, I thought Bainsbane said this to you.

I see that it was a male from Fort Wayne Indiana that made that despicable comment.

I'm not sure this person identifies as a feminist. I've never seen him around. But what he said was disgusting.

Very sorry about your niece.

[NuclearDem]

137. That comment was absolutely indefensible.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

[seabeyond]

144. Baines could not reply...

I'm very sorry for his loss. I believe that insensitive comment was by a gunner seeking to deflect from the gun issue and that it is a mistake to assume that is reflective of feminists' concerns about misogyny? I would never say such a thing, and I doubt many feminists would.

[stupidicus]

138. I know what you mean

I recently argued that underage kids sometimes make bad choices (for example http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/25/youngest-american-life-without-parole/) whether they are legally/competently able to or not while debating the merits or lack thereof of legalized prostitution -- and was accused of "advocating for pedophilia" by one. The only reason I bring it up, is because one of their arguments against legalized prostitution (which appears to be coming from the same group) seems to be that it "facilitates" a host of other undesirable things like underage prostitutes, sex slavery, etc.

Who knew the DU admins were so tolerant of us imaginary pedophilia and misogyny advocates, no?

I think you're entirely correct in your assessment here. Some are largely paving a way to hell with their good intentions because they shoot first with no apparent desire to even ask questions later when it gets down to the interpersonal interaction level with those who challenge anything they post in any way. And indeed, I use to read from rightwingers about how criticisms of Palin just had to be sexist/misogynist -- the same flawed illogic.

Some of them simply don't see themselves becoming similar to what it is they are objecting to with the kinda conduct from them we've experienced.

My condolences over your niece, and thanks for the example showing that my experience is not as bad as it can get around here with some of these people. They should be rooting out their bad spokespeople with the same vigor and rigor they're attempting to do with those they can reasonably charge with the crime in this case.

[seabeyond]

139. didnt you state a child had the right, should be given the right to make the choice of prostitution

and that it was a viable career choice for said child. that none of us should have issue, let alone speak out against this practice of child prostitution?

i wasnt in the mess. not sure about recalll

[stupidicus]

140. nothing remotely like that

I made the same point I made here -- that some of them choose it whether they are able to legally make that choice or not due to competency considerations that consent of that kind are limited by.

As a father and grandfather, I'm as appalled by and against the idea and practice of child prostitution as any do-gooder here, and a supporter of the age consent restraints the competency thing places on children and the adults that would take advantage of them.

All you're repeating here is either a grossly inept or dishonest deconstruction of what I wrote that another posted, where meaning was found by them or completely made up where none existed or was intended -- just as the poster I responded to here fell victim to.

I was arguing for legal prostitution for adults, and will again should the desire arise.

[seabeyond]

141. well. you had your say here. i am not going to hunt the post down. nt

[seabeyond]

142. i found the post. people can decide themselves, though...

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025346527#post121

*

I went to high school with more than one girl like that four and a half decades ago. Just because they aren't of age to "consent" to such, hence the statuatory rape charge, hardly means many haven't made that choice compelled by nothing but what the monetary gain would provide.

I'd bet any of my 8 sisters knew more of them than I did too, so go find a clue.

What's next, that type has a scarlet "P" branded on their forehead or something?

indeed, do run along

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i can see the issue jury had, and the alerter, and others.

[StevieM]

146. Our society's efforts to promote relinquishment by unmarried pregnant women is misogynistic.

Allowing a woman to sign adoption papers when she is drugged on pain killers is misogynistic. Bringing adoption papers to a woman in the hospital and asking her to sign 24 hours after giving birth is misogynistic. Not having safety measures in place to prevent coercion is misogynistic.

[JustAnotherGen]

153. This is an excellent list

And it's greater than DU - and I can't understand why folks would need a lot of links at DU when all they need to do is to step away from the site and look around themselves. The world is bigger than this message board.

[William769]

165. Unfortunately it exists way more than people think (or want to believe)

Case in point, just look at DU (although I will say some of it is being cleaned up unfortunately some can only be cleaned up by a select few).

I say Cut it out like the cancer that it is and then discard it.