Burgers and Bullets shutters Four days after a 9 year old girl accidentally killed an instructor

[kpete]

Burgers and Bullets shutters

Four days after a 9 year old girl accidentally killed an instructor on the Burgers and Bullets range with a fully automatic Uzi sub machine gun, and one day after the range operator told Chris Hayes that his business would stay open, it closes indefinitely.

VIDEO & MORE:
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/burgers-and-bullets-shutters-323020355921

[handmade34]

1. I wish

people would stop saying the "girl killed an instructor" ... THE GUN killed the instructor

[Warren Stupidity]

3. The culture of gun fetishism kills people ever day.

[SidDithers]

9. No, the girl killed the instructor...

she didn't intend to kill the instructor, but she was wielding the gun, and it was her finger that initiated the firing of the gun that she was unable to control.

She may not be legally responsible for the killing of the instructor, because she's not old enough to take ownership of her actions, and she was acting under the direction of an adult. But there's no doubt that her actions resulted in the death of the instructor.

I feel bad for this 9 year-old girl. She'll have to live with the knowledge of what she did for the rest of her life. A sane society that isn't obsessed with gun culture would never have afforded her the opportunity to be involved in this tragedy.

Sid

[handmade34]

14. we can agree to disagree

on the verbiage

[SidDithers]

20. I can live with that...

Sid

[rock]

31. None of the following statements are in contradiction with any other

1. The girl killed an instructor;
2. The gun killed the instructor;
3. The bullet killed the instructor;
4. The culture of gun fetishism killed the instructor.

[FarPoint]

35. I pick option number 4.

[irisblue]

40. #4 nt

[rock]

44. I too pick #4

[rock]

51. Also possible is

#5 Second Amendment Rights killed the instructor.

[RobinA]

72. Horrendous Judgment

on the part of the instructor killed the instructor.

[rock]

86. Very good!

I like your take!

[TheBlackAdder]

83. Actually: The Instructor Failed to Properly Assess The Abilities Of The Girl, Leading To His Death.

Saying that the girl killed the instructor is akin to saying that a student driver or student pilot was at fault for an accident when they were under the direct tutelage of an instructor--someone directing and controlling the student's actions and that of the equipment.

Though it was the girl's finder on the trigger, though the girl appeared to lose her left hand grip on the weapon...

It was the instructor's job to assess the student and determine if she was capable to fire the weapon.

===

While the parent's exercised poor judgment, it was up to the business and instructor to determine whether the girl was capable to handle the equipment--and if not, they should have denied her request or given her another weapon to use. They used the lame, it was on her bucket list' as an excuse to say that a 9yo was old enough to make this choice.

The instructor might have been under pressure to let her fire the weapon, for the sake of the sale, but it was not the girl's fault in any way. The girl did not know what to expect, the site offered NO protections to anyone nearby, in the event something went wrong. The weapon could have easily spun and killed the girl or others.

[jmowreader]

93. The instructor was also in the wrong place

Uzis have a "vertical recoil" - aka "muzzle climb" - that goes up and to the left at pretty close to a 45-degree angle. Watch this video, and pay particular attention to the gun's muzzle:

These are gun pros, almost all with Uzi experience, and their gun has the special Israeli Army anti-climb handgrip. All of them are experiencing muzzle climb in the "auto" setting.

Here's the question: This man had to have known what Uzis do when you set them to auto and pull the trigger sharply to the rear. Why was he standing in the path of the muzzle?

[Duckhunter935]

101. correct

first the Uzi should have had only a few rounds in it

Second he should have been on the right

Stupid in all respects. That Uzi should never have been fired by a child.

[ksoze]

102. The right is in the path of the shell ejection

Clearly better than getting hit with a bullet, but also good way to get hit with ejected shells. I"m not sure where I would stand with a 9 year old with an Uzi in AUTO mode, but I'm gonna guess far away.

[jmowreader]

106. I would have put a brass deflector on it, if it was mine

The M16A1 had a big problem for left-handed shooters - it ejected the empties to the rear, so anyone firing it left-handed had to attach a deflector to keep the brass from hitting them in the face. It was fixed in the A2.

Where would I have stood with a 9-year-old and an Uzi? On my own two feet and told her air-headed parents, "she can fire an M-249 or an M-60, either of which is more fun than the Uzi, but nothing smaller."

[TheBlackAdder]

103. Does it go left because the right trigger arm is angled inward? Will a leftie track to the right? nt

[Crunchy Frog]

99. The instructors' actions resulted in his own death.

I hope the girl can get a good therapist who will help her understand that she bears no responsibility for this at all.

[MH1]

104. NO, The "instructor" KILLED HIMSELF. Using a 9 yr old.

It may have been an "accident" but he killed himself as surely as if he had been doing something as irresponsible as playing with the loaded Uzi while he was also heavily loaded. (drunk that is.)

He didn't handle the situation remotely properly, if there ever is a proper way to train a NINE YEAR OLD to handle an Uzi loaded with 32 rounds. A guest on one of the talk shows, who is supposedly also a gun instructor, pointed out that where he had his hand wasn't even correct for showing someone how to shoot, and was of no use if the shooter lost control, as she did. As an instructor, Vacca should have known this.

[RiffRandell]

13. I thought the same thing because of the mantra "guns don't kill

people, people kill people". Bullshit, and this proves it.

[still_one]

34. The girl did kill the instructor due to negligence of the instructor and parents who saw no problems

with providing the UZI.

If a person is driving a car and kills someone, it is not the car that caused the death, but the operator, whether intentional or not. That is the reality of the situation

[tblue]

53. The car analogy

makes it crystal clear. That poor girl, and her stupid parents. They share a huge part of the blame even if they were nowhere nearby.

[still_one]

59. no question about it

[Crunchy Frog]

98. The instructor killed the instructor.

By putting an Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old, he bears full responsibility for the consequences.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. In my opinion people who think Burgers and Bullets is

a place they would choose as a family destination have serious problems. I want nothing to do with the culture that identifies with this sort of depravity.

[hlthe2b]

10. Maybe they should vacation in Somalia....

Honestly such obsession over guns is beyond the pale.

[Initech]

70. They were selling giant gun safes at my local Costco last week.

All I could think when I saw that was that if you own enough guns and ammunition that you need a $1500 safe to secure it all, you've got a problem.

[ManiacJoe]

75. Are you saying that $1500 is too much for the price?

[Warren Stupidity]

88. No - if you own that many guns you have a serious mental problem.

I get it that gun nuts don't understand that a large segment of the American population thinks they are seriously deranged, but we do. We hate gun culture, everything about it, top to bottom. We think taking your kid to "burgers and bullets" is sick, depraved, criminally irresponsible. We think owning a freaking arsenal is bizarre.

[ManiacJoe]

95. The price of the safe is not about the number of guns in it.

The price is based on the strength and fire-proofing of the box.

If all you want to do is keep your 3-year-old out of the gun box, then you need not spend more than a few hundred dollars. Keeping out the burglars requires something more substantial and more pricy.

[Jim Beard]

94. They sell guns safes at the local John Deere dealership

They always have three on display and they said they sold quit a few of them.

[underpants]

4. Coming bankruptcy to avoid lawsuit

Also the amount if liability insurance probably just , excuse me, shot through the roof.

[Blue_Tires]

11. +1

He's probably also been hiding his money...

[FarPoint]

37. Wouldn't this fall under workers compensation?

Death claim....? If I understand the concept of workers compensation, you can't file a lawsuit with the employer...safety violation penalties can be applicable...

[underpants]

39. Don't know

Workers comp only pays $xxx while a lawsuit could be more.

[FarPoint]

47. In Ohio...probably elsewhere as well...

The concept of workers compensation was established due to employer lawsuits from injuries occurring in the course of employment. That said, this situation appears to fall into this category... I understand each state may vary. It will be interesting to see if a new company emerges to replace this one...

[Cha]

5. "Burgers and Bullets".. Geeze, I live a sheltered life.. I ha NO idea such

stupidity existed.

[CBGLuthier]

12. In my town they are talking about opening a combination bar and gun range

They claim they will have a system that keeps you from shooting once you have started drinking but I am sure that will work as well as putting an Uzi in a nine year old's hand did.

Since this idea sounds totally insane here is an article that proves it is true. Insane but true.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/09/smallbusiness/gun-range-alcohol/

[Bluzmann57]

17. A bar and gun range combo?

Yeah that'll work real well. Nobody gets into fights at a bar.

[Whiskeytide]

19. A Darwin Award bonanza!! n/t

[Cha]

24. So Shoot First.. and toast later.. right. Oh, I believe it.. I'm just surprised they're

separating the guns from the alcohol.. "Guns being the new Golf" and all.

[Takket]

29. or... instead of needing such a system... you could just not serve guns and booze in the same place

[hifiguy]

63. Brilliant thinking there.

As if anything good could possibly come of that brain fart.

Thirty-five years ago Devo said the human race was devolving. Time has only proven them spectacularly correct.

[dickthegrouch]

73. At least there won't be any jurisdiction fights over any accidents

ATF will have jurisdiction over all of it

[libdem4life]

97. Just call it Gunsmoke or Rifleman...conservatives still yearning for the good ol' days.

TV was black and white and the cops were getting kittens out of trees and Mom was in the kitchen baking apple pie while Dad went to work. Kind of Ozzie and Harriet/Dick Van Dyke days.

[Paladin]

22. This is the sort of thing that happens when guns are reduced to toy status.

Today's out-of-control gun culture is to blame. Firearms used to be regarded as serious objects; not anymore. Guns with pink hardware. Guns openly carried into burger joints and shopping malls. Guns styled like military armaments, so middle-aged individuals can continue playing soldier games. And, God help us, shooting ranges where fully-automatic guns are available to 9 year-olds. All of these unfortunate trends are relatively recent, they are the creation of a militant, almost wholly right-wing gun culture, and innocent lives are the price being paid, on a daily basis.

[Cha]

27. I know, Paladin.. the wild west all over again.

[whathehell]

33. Exactly...As someone said about places like Burgers and Bullets,

"It's not Disneyland".

[greatlaurel]

43. Very well said.

The marketing of guns and gun related merchandise is a very well researched marketing campaign to separate people from their money disguised as the Second Amendment. It is clever, but like most ideas created by corporations the consequences have been and will continue to be horrendous. The percentage of people who fall for this marketing strategy goes down every year, so the same people have to be convinced to buy more guns and ammo to keep the corporate profits increasing.

Most of these folks who fall for this type of marketing probably cannot understand how ridiculously easy their are being manipulated for corporate profit.

The marketing of guns as toys and entertainment is obscene.

[marions ghost]

55. +++

ditto

"the marketing of guns as toys and entertainment is obscene."

That's the right word for it.

[Trajan]

56. LOVES me some Paladin ...

Esteemed veteran of the Gungeon Wars ...

Tip of the hat to ya, Budlet ...

[Paladin]

61. You're entirely too kind. Much appreciated. (nt)

[malaise]

96. Seriously I didn't know this crap existed

until TheCowsCameHome posted the link.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025447498#post17

[FarPoint]

6. Some choose to learn life lessons the hard way...

Tragic lesson....

[hlthe2b]

7. GOOD

What an absolute cretin was the owner who went on tv to deny there was anything wrong or worrisome about letting a child handle a fully automatic gun like that.

[upaloopa]

85. He spoke in that calm self assured condescending

"I'm more intelligent than you" gunner style that gets under my skin. Just the facts mam just the facts all point to guns are good more guns are better.

[3catwoman3]

107. The idea that shooting a gun...

...of ANY kind is on a nine year old's "bucket list" is ridiculous. A bucket list for someone that age should be sleep away camp, or making the travel soccer team, or winning the 4th grade spelling bee. I was totally disgusted when he said that.

The very name of the place betrays a much too casual attitude toward guns. Burgers are a casual food, easy to prepare, and not requiring much effort to plan. Handling firearms would seem to have nothing in common with casual, easy and not much effort required.

[Iggo]

8. "Burgers and Bullets."

Who are these fucking idiots?

[ksoze]

15. They unfortunately supply a need

The fascination with machine guns and large weapons is more wide spread than you may think - it's not backwoods hicks. The media, games and the gun culture have created an excitement about blasting away with an automatic weapon. That desire is in many young people who would and do pay to shoot a machine gun. How a 9 year old can be allowed by both the parents and gun range is perplexing and a result like this cannot be unexpected.

[brush]

28. You would think there would be an age restriction . . .

on the use of automatic weapons in the shooting range part of this business just as there is an age restriction on the alcohol intake side of Burgers and Bullets.

But that would make too much sense.

[enough]

60. Not sure I would call it a "need." A market, yes, but not a need. (nt)

[randome]

16. It would be nice to think that people were staying away because they were rethinking...

...taking their children there.

Sadly, it's probably because they're worried about their own lives.

(Not going to watch the video at work so someone feel free to set me right if I have it wrong.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. Everything about this story is batshit crazy.

I had no idea the place was called "Bullets and Burgers".

Curious, I googled it. There's another one in Las Vegas, and its Trip Advisor rankings listed it as the highest ranked attraction in Las Vegas. Out of 575 attractions.

Now, I'm not someone who finds Las Vegas to be the center of high culture, but certainly there are more worthwhile places in the city to visit than a combination restaurant/gun range.

I don't get some people. I really don't.

[ksoze]

21. The desire to shoot machine guns has wide appeal

Those TA reviews are an small example of what the media and gaming focus on these guns has created - read them. These people are not just crazed backwoods people - the curiosity and desire to blast away at something has been sensitized in our culture.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. The number two Tripadvisor ranked attraction in Vegas is a place called "Battlefield Vegas"

And what it is, is that they pick you up in a Humvee and take you out to a range where you shoot off all sorts of military grade weaponry so they get a chance to shoot all the things that our troops shoot.

Yes. They've actually done it. They made a tourist attraction out of war, and apparently people looooove it.

I find this so incredibly insulting to veterans of actual wars as well as anyone who's ever been affected by an actual war. War is truly hell. it scars people emotionally, deeply. Why would anyone in their right mind want to make it a tourist attraction?

[ksoze]

25. The attraction to playing "War" is not new

you played war with toy guns and so did I. Our kids played it with video games and now it is played with real hardware. The military uses the hardware to recruit soldiers and there is no shortage of people who will pay to relive their boyhood games with real guns and tanks. I would guess the military is not insulted by these attractions at all.

[HERVEPA]

54. Actually, not everyone did play war with toy guns. I didn't, my kids didn't.

[bullwinkle428]

26. This is a fantastic point that should be made into an OP -

I would happily K&R it.

[logosoco]

30. I had to check that out and it IS real.

What has this country come to?
The cheapest package was $99. There was one seemed to be aimed at kids for $109. They even had "cutesy" names. Who has that kind of money to spend on something that is ... what? I don't get it?
I hope this is not going to get any bigger of a thing.

[underpants]

38. Gun Tourism

See my post #36 below. People travel from around the world and within the US to states that allow ranges to have these weapons. Lots of recent articles on it.

[logosoco]

48. Wow. Of all the beautiful and cool things to see in this country.

We went on a family road trip this summer, following roughly the old Route 66. I was tickled to see things like a giant rocking chair and a whale and the Cadillac ranch. I don't know what I would have thought if we had come across one of these places.

[underpants]

36. It's called Gun Tourism

You can google it - several recent articles as you can imagine.

The use of fully automatic weapons is still quite restricted. The cost of such a weapon could be $1-2k if you are allowed to own one. Ranges, with their *ahem* safety procedures and qualified instructors, are allowed in some states to have different weapons. I heard an indoor gun range here in Richmond advertising on RW radio a 4th if July blast-a-thon or something like that. Nevada is another. Going to Vegas? Why not go pay $200 or so, instead if buying one - if you can, and blast away. Apparently Hawaiian gun ranges of this kind are very popular with Asian tourists.


Just letting you know.

[Lurks Often]

67. You are WAY low on the costs

No civilian can buy a fully automatic weapon if it was manufactured after 1986. It has to have been made before 1986 for it to be transferable, which requires a $200 Federal tax stamp, a background check by the ATF and for an UZI about $12,000 dollars.

The really low end ones, the MAC-10's and WWII Sten guns run about $4500

[underpants]

68. Okay thanks

I knew it was a prohibitive cost. Thanks for the detail.

[Lurks Often]

69. No problem

the bigger belt fed machine guns will run $40,000 and up depending on what kind it is and how much historical significance it has.

Generally requires someone with deep pockets

[jmowreader]

58. It's actually the same place

The Arizona Last Stop truck stop, which is 60 miles from Vegas (and which has the apparently-very-good burgers), has a machine gun range. Bullets and Burgers is in Vegas; they take people from Sin City to Arizona to shoot. Whether the two businesses belong to the same people, or someone in Vegas realized he could make lots of money by taking people out there, I don't know.

[Egnever]

90. You dont have to leave Vegas

There are several here just off the strip.

[jmowreader]

91. For this one specific range, you do

I can kinda see why you'd choose this one - included in the price of your range day is a visit to the Hoover Dam.

[malthaussen]

65. I'd call that a succinct summary.

I keep coming back to a line in Pournelle and Niven's Oath of Fealty. "Think of it as evolution in action."

-- Mal

[Egnever]

89. Oh there's many more than one in Las Vegas

Gun ranges have been popping up here like 7-11's I can think of five of these places just off the top of my head all offering the same shoot the biggest gun we can find BS.

It has been puzzling me for a couple of years now how these places stay open but they keep opening new ones so it must be doing well.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. Somewhere, Jefferson and Madison weep

"MAAAAAHHHHH RIIIOOOTS ARE BEING INFRINGED!!!!!"

I hope Sister Sarah addresses this travesty.

[TwilightGardener]

41. This is only going to boost their competitor, Hot Dogs and Swords.

[cbayer]

42. To say nothing of Smoothies and Spears.

[pinboy3niner]

45. And Bunnies & Bombs

[Buns_of_Fire]

52. Kittens & Kalashnikovs!

[Beaverhausen]

84. Shotguns & Subs!

[corkhead]

62. meatloaf and Maces

&

[smokey nj]

71. If you're in the mood for Italian you should try Sickles and Spaghetti. They make a puttanesca

that's to die for.

[Phentex]

80. and Laser Taser...

[greatlaurel]

46. They spent the days since the accident raiding the assets, so the widow will get no compensation.

What a nasty person to create such a vile idea. He will surely pop up again with a equally foul marketing idea.

[itsrobert]

105. Yup, probably moving everything to another "business person"

into a shell outfit with a figure head. It probably will reopen as a "different" company.

[ksoze]

49. I am shocked there have not been more incidents

These type of attractions are prevalent and as many here now learn, popular with the masses. The fact that minors are allowed to handle these military grade weapons is hard to believe when one views the video and sees how dangerous it is. I am not sure of the state or federal reporting requirements, but I am willing to bet that there have been more close calls. You could not pay me enough to stand near a minor holding an automatic weapon and I am curious as to what was behind her - we know her mom filming the incident and appears that she could just as easily been killed or injured as would anyone near her.

[librechik]

50. sounds like the perfect place to get CAD and a GSW

[lunasun]

57. Besides Gun Tourism I have noticed an increase in general stores of a plethora of gun fan magazines

At one store which never had it before, there was an entire kiosk set up with about ten different gun fan magazines. Everywhere I go now I see an increase in this similar to how there are so many more fitness magazines than there were say 20 years ago

OK this a free country and you can read what you want , I am just commenting on the increase and how popular this is now with Joe and Jane Q Public.
This seems to be a new popular pastime

Read the mag see suggestions and ads for gun vacations I guess.

[Sienna86]

64. If they had liability insurance, it's now gone.

Who would insure such a place that allows 9 year olds to fire an Uzi? No one.

[ecstatic]

82. yep. nt

[Blue Owl]

66. Well I'll just head over to Hotdogs and Howitzers then

Last edited Sat Aug 30, 2014, 12:30 AM - Edit history (1)

[steve2470]

77. then next week we'll try Tanks and TurkeyBurgers !

[moondust]

78. Followed by Bazookas and Brats!

[jmowreader]

92. Your nine-year-old would be far safer at Hotdogs and Howitzers

A howitzer can't rear up and shoot someone standing behind the gunner.

[gldstwmn]

74. I can't believe they were still open. n/t

[steve2470]

76. good ! nt

[thelordofhell]

79. Four Days Too Late..........

[liberal N proud]

81. Four days too late

[In_The_Wind]

87. Too late to save a life.

[aikoaiko]

100. They really screwed up. Closing and dissolving would be a wise move.

The UZI accident in Massachusetts should have been the wake up call to gun ranges.