How do you feel about religion in the OR?

[trof]

This is kind of a cross post from Seniors.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11831337

I had cataract surgery/lens placement Thursday.
My ophthalmologist/surgeon is a very nice, young (hell, they all look young to me now), personable guy.

Just before they rolled me into the OR he came over, leaned down, and said "I like to say a short prayer before each operation. Do you mind?"
Although I'm happy with folks believing whatever they want as to religion, I'm an atheist.
This, however, was not the time to go into that.
"I don't mind.", I said.

He said a short prayer asking for success and a good outcome for the procedure I was about to undergo. IIRC it was non-denominational, just to his god, no mention of Jesus.

I was a bit touched. In a way, it was kind of sweet.
But at the same time thought "Damn, I could have done without that." I want to believe that this guy is good because of his training, and intelligence, and expertise, and skill, and not because he thinks he needs some divine assistance in what he's about to do.
To me.



So they roll my gurney into the OR.
I had heard that many surgeons like music in the OR.
My guy was no exception.
It was a Christian music radio station.
(As you might deduce, we have many here in Alabama.)
Half way through the operation one of the nurses started softly singing along with a hymn. Another said "We sing that in church." and joined in.
Oh boy.



I have no problem with 'believers'.
Miz t. is a devout Episcopalian/Catholic Lite (lapsed Catholic...birth control, child sexual molestation, etc.).
We agree to disagree.
We've been happily married for 43 years.
She prays for me.
Fine.

Just a question:
If you were a non-believer, how would you have felt?

[randys1]

1. Crap...I had a religious dentist who told me healthcare is for those who can afford it and

Climate change wasnt real, I have a new dentist now

Cant go to a person of science who does not believe in science

[NYC Liberal]

59. I'd have asked that one how much Jesus charged the sick people he healed

and whether he only healed those who had the cash.

[Lars39]

2. I would have felt cornered and obliged to be polite and had a BP spike.

*Your* health comes before the religious beliefs he was foisting on you.

[LiberalAndProud]

3. Really pissed off.

Which would cause my blood pressure to rise, which would complicate the procedure. It would not be a good place for me to be. Not even.

Beyond your puzzlement, how did you feel?

[trof]

16. I guess I felt "WTF, just go with it."

As I said, this was no time for a philosophical discussion about religion.
He is a very nice guy.
Called me that night to make sure I was doing OK.
I'm guessing this is SOP, and a bit CYA, but still...it was nice.
I do not begrudge him his religious beliefs.
To each, his own.

But, IMHO, one's religion is (should be?) a personal thing and should not be brought into the workplace of a professional.

[LiberalAndProud]

19. Incense.

If they had lighted incense, I'd have been okay with it. It would introduce a shaman flavor to the whole thing. That would have been a more comfortable environment for me.

As for to each his own, sure. But the absence of any sort of reciprocal respect would rile me. If he wants prayer, swell! put the music on headphones and pray in the closet.

Of course, I'd have told him that when he showed up at my bedside offering a prayer. And his god should help him if my reaction should cause his knife to slip.

[pnwmom]

82. Why would you be pissed off that the guy about to cut into you

asked permission to say some words that would help HIM clear his head before he did so?

[LiberalAndProud]

93. Because I have no patience for public displays of piety.

Maybe it has to do with Jesus' admonition to the Pharisees. That passage speaks to me even today as a nonbeliever.

I don't think it was for the doctor's benefit in clearing his head. if that were the case, he could do that without patient participation. I am fairly certain this would have annoyed me even when I believed.

There was no discussion until the procedure was about to begin and seems to me to be extremely disrespectful. Honest to pete, pnwmom, I would have had to get up and walk out. I can't necessarily explain this logically. It is an emotional response.

[pnwmom]

94. When I was contemplating my first childbirth, I had ideas and preferences about what position

I wanted to give birth in. But then another pregnant woman, who happened to be a doctor herself, said she wanted to be in the position that the doctor was most comfortable with so he'd do the best job. And that made sense to me.

This seems similar.

The doctor can't explain logically to you why he needs to pray out loud. Seems like you're both in the same situation -- but he's the one about to cut into you.

If that unnerves you, I guess it would make sense to call if off.

[LiberalAndProud]

96. That's an interesting point of view.

Given those parameters, wouldn't it have been possible to find an obstetrician who felt comfortable delivering in the position you might have preferred. Trof's doctor's position and mine are simply incompatible. I don't need to shop for an atheist to treat me. I do need to feel some measure of mutual respect between my physician and myself.

[pnwmom]

97. Yeah, maybe. But there are lots of factors that go into choosing a doctor,

and I never expect any of them to be perfect.

[LiberalAndProud]

98. I don't expect perfection either.

I've had some bad experiences with ophthalmologists that have nothing to do with their religious practices. Still, this behavior would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. I guess I would be OK with it. I've never had a surgeon talk that way to me.

Whatever helps the doc do his work, I guess.

What would you have done if he'd mentioned his religious views in your office visits?

[Wait Wut]

5. It would creep me the fuck out.

Religion doesn't creep me out, but my doc praying over me would. I'm glad everything worked out, with or without God's help. I would suggest you send a note to the doc with a little helpful hint, give people the heads up on that shit BEFORE you have them strapped to a gurney.

And the nurses going all Christian choir? Hell no. Again, it's not the religious aspect, it's the "I've seen that horror movie before" aspect. Just as I'm getting sleepy, someone goes full fanatic and starts screaming to some unseen angel that they've caught the demon. Nope.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Again, super glad you came out okay and the OR didn't get struck by lightning, or anything.

[RKP5637]

7. I found it really creepy too. n/t

[madokie]

6. I would have probably said

so that is the guy who I see hovering over you right now

[malthaussen]

8. Nurses having a singalong in the OR would disturb me...

... whatever they were singing. I'd wonder if they were paying attention to their work. Still, I suppose it could be justified as nothing different from "dum de dum de dum," but I think I would react unfavorably.

The surgeon, not so much. So long as he didn't try to coerce me to pray with him. That would be over the line.

-- Mal

[tularetom]

9. I might have welcomed it

I had the same operation and my doc mumbled to himself all the way through it.

The only way I kept myself from going nuts was counting the number of times the blood pressure machine pumped up and released. It went on 2 minute intervals and I knew the procedure was going to take about 30 minutes so I had a pretty good idea how much longer I was going to have to listen to him.

Of course I was sedated so it wasn't near as annoying as it otherwise might have been.

[Arugula Latte]

10. I had the same experience with LASIK, but I had been warned.

My friend told me that the doctor asked if he could say a short prayer before every operation. I almost booked a different guy, but this one was very experienced and reputed to be the best in the area, so I bit the bullet, and I did get a great result.

It was definitely freaky, and the nurses joined in. I was wondering if they really believed the mumbo jumbo or if they felt they needed to go along because it was their job.

But, really, who is going to say: "Uh, yeah, doc, don't pray over me" right before an operation? You don't want to piss off or rattle the doctor in any way, shape, or form.

I think it's highly unprofessional.

[stevenleser]

11. I would have been very upset.

I'm good at forcing myself to stay calm, but that would have taxed that ability considerably.

I do not like people forcing their religion on me. I really makes me upset.

[moriah]

12. I'm Wiccan, not an atheist or agnostic, but I would have been fine with it.

To me, good wishes are good wishes, and if it puts him in a better frame of mine to cut me without doing damage, I'm cool with pretty much whatever it takes. If a prayer makes him feel better, sure.

[trof]

17. OK. Guess I could go with that...but

I still don't feel comfortable with a medical professional calling on divine intervention/assistance.
Whatever 'divine' he's calling on.

[madamesilverspurs]

13. Nope.

To be perfectly honest, my problems have always been with the doctors who think they have all the answers; it's taken others to fix the problems they created.

In one case, years ago I went for a follow-up appointment with the very well-reputed surgeon who repaired my spine. After the exam, which included walking and sitting and bending, I told him how glad I was for his ability. He looked at me and said, ''You told me that a lot of people were praying for you and I believe it. I'd hoped to relieve your pain, I never dreamed that you would walk. I'm good, but I'm not that good. So tell 'em to keep praying!"

And a friend had been having increasing seizures, something to do with a mass growing inside his head. After several months of lots of doctors, we packed up all his documents (including the X-rays of the growing thing) to a hospital in Denver. They'd flown in a highly specialized surgeon from back east to remove the mass; my friend was given a 5% chance of not being in a vegetative state afterward. We'd gathered to celebrate knowing him, and he entered the hospital having received several hundred hugs. I stayed with him until his parents arrived, then kissed him goodnight, thinking it was really goodbye. In the morning, I went to sit with his parents during the surgery, and was shocked to find my friend sitting on his bed, fully dressed. His parents were beaming, his mom with tears streaming down her face. The surgeon came in and handed over the discharge papers, and I noticed his hands were shaking (not a good thing in a surgeon, I was thinking). He explained that they'd taken my friend for the pre-operative X-rays, and there was nothing there; they used every machine in the facility, and all they saw was a small space where the thing used to be. He had no explanation, shrugged his shoulders, shook his head, and said "Sometimes..." while he pointed up. And he smiled.

Got a few more like that, but to answer the question: no, I have no problem with faith in the OR.

[LiberalAndProud]

40. So for you, this doctor would have been a very comfortable fit.

And perhaps his prayer was made generic enough to not offend someone of other religious sensibilities. It's a safe bet in our country that a person is likely to be a believer of some flavor, so 98 times out of 100 this won't be an issue at all. Not even an issue of puzzlement.

It's we two of the 100 that receive little to no consideration because belief trumps unbelief. And that, dear madamesilverspurs, sucks when you're on this side of it.

[ecstatic]

14. the odd thing was that he announced it

Prayers can be done privately, anytime, anyplace and nobody has to know (depending on the situation). I would wonder what made him feel the need to announce it (does he do that with everyone or did he know you were an atheist and wanted to convert you somehow?).

[trof]

18. Well, yeah. Why tell me? Good point.

No, we had no discussion about religion during any appointment.
Why did he feel the need to pray aloud in front of me?
Hmmm...

[PADemD]

48. Did the hospital ask your religious affiliation?

The hospital I frequent usually asks on the admission papers.

[REP]

73. I get asked IF I have a religious affiliation when I have surgery

It's asked in a neutral way, and it's pretty obvious it's to accommodate me: make sure I'm left alone or make sure the appropriate clergy is sent, depending upon my answer. I think it's a standard question that gets asked, but probably gets asked in a more judgy way in some places.

[trof]

109. No. Not in any way.

[DrDan]

15. I am a non-believer - but comfortable in allowing others their own personal beliefs

[trof]

20. Sure, same here.

But I felt this was inappropriate.
Why not say a silent prayer?
For believers, do you have to vocalize for god to hear you?

[DrDan]

22. I certainly cannot speak for him - but perhaps he feels it brings comfort and confidence

to his team

it would not offend me if he spoke his prayer aloud

[trof]

25. I was not 'offended'. Just somewhat taken aback.

I'm no expert on what may or may not reach god's ear, but I was raised in the Christian church.
We did silent prayers.
We were told that they were just as acceptable, maybe more so, than spoken prayers.

Is there not a bible verse about praying privately, in a closet, as opposed to declaring your prayers for all to hear in a public place so others may know how pious you are?

[DrDan]

31. I was certainly not implying you were offended - you asked how other non-believers felt - just

sharing my personal thoughts

I think that if I were to pray, I would do so silently, as you suggest. Just not sure what drives others to do otherwise.
I would like to think that at least some are doing so without a thought of impressing others. I am sure there are
plenty that want others to know how truly "pious" they are.

[2naSalit]

78. In my

vast experience with religions and proselytizers is that they are something close to required to attempt to "bring others (the uncleansed) into the "fold" sort of belief and practice.

I would have been upset with the singing of the nurses. That IS truly unprofessional and seems somewhat coercive.

I have my spiritual understanding but I feel that such things are private and should not be expressed in the presence of others in that context. The initial prayer might have been okay but the rest, not. Not the piped in hymns and not the nurses' choir.

[DrDan]

87. and there are non-believers who feel it is their mission in life to "convert" the believers

we have some right here in our community.

No difference as far as I am concerned - no proof either way.

[Arugula Latte]

80. He could have said it silently, or before he was in the operating room.

I feel like it's religious grandstanding.

[DrDan]

83. he certainly could have

you know - it really works both ways.

There are many non-believers who also feel the need to loudly express their beliefs (we have our share of these here on DU). And there are those who are comfortable in doing so silently.

Not much difference imo. No scientific proof either way.

[Arugula Latte]

86. I'd wager that very view non-believing doctors look at a patient on an operating bed and say:

"You know what's stupid? Religion. Okay, nurse, let's put this guy under!"

[DrDan]

90. well I guess you are more comfortable in predicting religious views of OR docs than am I

I can't argue with your statement, now can I.

[catnhatnh]

21. I'm reminded of the OR scene in the movie "Cold Turkey"...

Dr. Proctor: I've never operated without having a cigarette first.
Man on operating table: For God's sake, let him smoke!

In short-whatever floated his boat or tuned his karma....I would want the guy bringing his "A" game.

[trof]

23. BINGO!

[pnwmom]

85. Absolutely. If saying a few words will steady this surgeon's hand, then go for it!

[DrDan]

91. bingo - a voice of reason

if it brings him just a hint more of comfort and confidence, then go for it.

[Brickbat]

24. I would have felt intensely annoyed, my opinion of his professionalism would have dropped, and I

would have seriously considered a complaint against him.

[Skittles]

28. he should have mentioned it before the operation

it does seem unprofessional

[trof]

38. If he had prayed for me in initial consultations I would have hauled ass.

By the time of the operation I was committed.
I sure as hell didn't want to do anything to rub him the wrong way then.

Here in Alabama, when you meet new folks, many times their first question is "What church do you go to?"

[Skittles]

39. I hear ya

I'm in Texas which is not too much further down the sanctimony scale

[laundry_queen]

32. Same here. nt

[eridani]

51. For surgeons, professionalism is following established procedures

It's pretty rare these days for believers to invent anything, or in any way think outside the box, but this is not an issue here at all.

[malaise]

26. I wouldn't allow it

No one is violating my rights.
I once ran some nuns out of my friend's hospital room on her instructions.

[Arugula Latte]

81. To some extent I agree, but, having been in that same position

(for LASIK, which is a fast procedure but requires precision) and I did not want to do anything that would make the doctor react in a negative way and take it out on my eyes, either consciously or subconsciously. (And I really HATE the forcing of religion down others' throats -- the fucking Pledge of Allegiance really pisses me off, too, for example.)

[philosslayer]

106. What right is it exactly that is being violated in this situation?

n/t

[NightWatcher]

27. Before we put our science, education, and experience to use, let's get the sky dude's blessing

I just hope the anesthesia kicks in soon and takes me away.

[Arugula Latte]

84. Well, luckily the sky dude is always benevolent and kind and has humanity's best interests

at heart (please disregard war, famine, disease, natural disaster and the existence of Dick Cheney).

[former9thward]

29. So go find yourself an atheistic surgeon

if that is your highest priority in medical care.

[RebelOne]

30. I am in Georgia and had the same cataract operation in March on both eyes.

My surgeon never said anything about praying. I mentioned that I was a vegetarian and he said he was too. Maybe if I said I was an atheist, he may have agreed he was also.

[frogmarch]

33. I wouldn't like it, but

I’d have said I was fine with it to avoid any “Sorry, the knife slipped because you wouldn’t let God guide my hand” eff ups.

[MADem]

34. This has nothing to do with being a believer or a non-believer....

I would be HORRIFIED.

It would leave me with a bad feeling.

Isn't the point of religion to practice it modestly/privately?

That seems a bit self-aggrandizing to me. An "all about meeeeee" doc would trouble me. The singing in the OR would terrify me. Ya don't want Jesus to take the scalpel, you want someone with a firm grip.

I wouldn't care for it one bit. I might be inclined to leave and find another doc.

It gives me a Big Ick. I'd go to some of those doctor review websites and let others know about it--and let them know you were uncomfortable with it.

[REP]

74. You've captured what I couldn't quite put my finger on

Yes - the "look at me" part of it. Surgeons have a reputation for ego*, but that's a bit too much for me. Being forced to listen to terrible music and an amateur sing-along while undergoing eye surgery is barbaric.

*something I've always heard but never experienced

[MADem]

75. Someone who is schooled in the Bible can probably quote that piece I'm thinking about

that I have heard down the years--it has something to do with being private in prayer. It's the antithesis of these "Look at MEEEEEEEE" evangelical, lights-camera-action-Marjoe Gortner-style "Ewww Laaaaaaawwwwwd, Weee hum-blee pray..." religions, something about going into the closet to pray, or something...!

I often wondered if the whole "in/out of the closet" concept came from that bit!

[REP]

77. Matthew 6:5-6

[Thinkingabout]

35. I try to take the Constitution stand, try to be tolerant of others religions or the lack of religion

I have my own thoughts and expect others to be tolerant of my thoughts so I give the same respect.
If the world was tolerant of religious beliefs there would be less wars.

[DesertFlower]

36. i'm an atheist but it wouldn't bother me.

when my husband was dying i found the hospital chaplin to be wonderful and comforting even though i told her we weren't believers. she didn't push any kind of religion.

[Uben]

37. I could handle the prayer, maybe the music, but the singing is over the line

I want that nurse thinking about what to do next, not what the next verse is.

[KT2000]

41. to be honest - angry

It was considerate that he asked first and what he did was not wrong in my book but a lifetime of religious show-offs has conditioned me to anger when it is assumed I believe as they do.

[notadmblnd]

42. I definately would have said something about the music.

But then again, depending on my mood, I might have asked him if he thought he was incapable of doing his job without praying- because if he was, I'd find someone else to do the job.

[hunter]

43. If I was cutting people's eyeballs I'd probably have some weird routines too.

Lucky underwear, spin around three times, saying a quiet prayer, who the hell knows?

It's his stuff, not yours.

Whatever makes the surgeon comfortable... all I care about is the results.

Imagine living 40,000 years ago. If the shaman properly sets a broken bone or picks the right herbs for what ails me, it's all win. Who cares which gods were consulted?

I'm guessing the prayers are for the doctor's comfort, and may also be comforting for coworkers and patients who share his beliefs.

If you don't share those beliefs, no big deal, don't sweat it.

It's a human thing. Questioning people motive's isn't always the best path.

[Xyzse]

113. This is where I'm at.

[TheMightyFavog]

44. I would have been tempted to ask the surgeon if he could put some Slayer on.

[Alkene]

45. His behavior was inappropriate.

If I were in that situation, however, I would'a said about the same thing while thinking- do what you gotta do, Christian Soldiers; just don't fuck up my eyes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. I would want my surgeon to feel as relaxed and comfortable and as sure of himself as possible.

It would not bother me in the least.

[freshwest]

65. Same here. I only got in trouble with some believers at a doctor's office who took umbrage...

Because of an agreement that I would be treated for free as I was broke then. After a few months of this I decided I wanted to try to pay something, make a payment I could afford.

The doctor was doing it for free, also traveling to Africa to give free help on her own funds. She was well off from her practice in that town as most could pay well.

My desire to pay her offended her sense of... I'm not sure what... and she refused the payments and then got hostile. So I stopped going. I know the joy of giving, myself. But if someone said No, I'd accept that.

One of her employees also objected when I turned her down for her offer to take me to Israel and another time she wanted me to go and take a month at a health spa. I didn't have the money for that, said there was no way I could do it and she took it as a lack of faith.

It was too hard for me to keep up with things I was being offered, like meals that I paid, but could not afford it. They wanted to do it their way, perhaps a sense of pride on my part got in the way.

They really did like to give things to others but my desire to pay made them angry and hostile. I've always paid my own way for things, but then I met this group and liked their company for some time and they were a great help to me at times.

Any idea why they got so angry with me (because I'm not sure, despite speculating)?

Anyway, I moved away and wouldn't go back for anything. The eye doctor guy seems harmless. But I would be worried about the nurses not paying attention. Just sayin'

[Tuesday Afternoon]

69. ( Any idea why they got so angry with me ) =

I really don't know unless it really messed up paperwork. There is a lot of paperwork in the health *industry* and people have to go into the *proper* slot. I guess you would have been creating a *new* slot and, that would have been a hassle.

About the nurses singing ... and not paying attention ... what I find weird about all this is that trof was not under general anesthesia so he was aware of what was going on.

I am sure they do more than just sing in the OR .... tell jokes, talk about what's for lunch. What they did last night. All that general conversation. They know when they get to the critical part of the job and how much concentration is needed for which part of the process. So, No, the singing did not bother me either.

[freshwest]

111. Actually, they created the slot for me, off the books. Christian charity sort of thing.

And after refusing a shot of Demerol before surgery after having had a bad reaction before, I decided to stay lucid.

I was doing my usual thing, cracking jokes, since I was going to be awake until the magic green stuff in the IV hit my bloodstream.

I got the operating room crew to sing their version of Amazing Grace. Then I did the countdown as I watched for the knock out to happen. I did a 'Here it comes! 1... 2...3!'

And didn't remember a thing after that.Woke up puking from anesthesia as usual and demanded to go home. Also usual...

[BlueJazz]

47. This Atheist would have thought: "Aww...no big deal..pray all you want"

Sometimes it's appropriate to just Go-with-the-flow.

[davidpdx]

49. That is a hard question

I think people in the thread had some interesting views.

I would describe myself as agnostic. Steve mentioned that he doesn't like religion being pushed on him and I feel the exactly the same way. However if it is done quietly and in a respectful way, I'm flexible about it.

I'll provide a few examples:

1) I live in a large apartment complex in a suburb of Seoul. Often we have people come door to door and knock during the day. It is usually older women who are doing that. Although my ability to speak Korean isn't that great so I usually open in the window and say "no thank you".

2) Near our complex (as you walk out toward the stores nearby) groups of "church ladies" will camp out in the park and stop you. I find this HIGHLY annoying. One incident that happened last summer where I was stopped the woman trying to show me a video and I started arguing with her (she spoke English, so the conversation was in English) about whether she had the right to proselytize in the park and bother people. She went along with it for a bit before giving up. Most of the time I steer clear of them, but I guess that one time I just had a bug up my ass to pick a bit of a fight.

3) I was hired on at a Christian university and I was asked if I was Christian and said "yes". I figured if I kept my mouth shut and just worked hard, no problem. They told me after I was hired that I was required to pray prior to the start of every class. This made me uncomfortable. I decided to do a moment of silence. Needless to say I stayed a year and then left.

So there you have it.

[eridani]

50. Whatever keeps their hands steady, sez I n/t

[JEB]

52. I'd rather have them sacrifice a rooster

mix his blood with urine and sprinkle it over the operating table to drive away bad spirits.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. It would have put me off a bit, though I probably wouldn't have said anything.

I suppose that if a surgeon feels a prayer makes his hands a little steadier I guess I wouldn't stop him, though it seems to me that he could have taken care of that in private, while he was scrubbing. I don't think bringing one's religion into one's workplace is very appropriate, and there's something about people who advertise their beliefs to others that grinds my gears a little. If there is a god (at least as Christians traditionally understand that entity to be), presumably he/she/it knows your thoughts, and your silent, mental prayer should be perfectly good.

[gwheezie]

54. I'm an atheist It wouldn't have bothered me

I work in a catholic hospital. They pray at the drop of a hat where I work. Before meetings, at the start of every shift, over the loud speaker. They're always praying for me.
My husband died last week where I work. They prayed for him. He was catholic so he appreciated it. I was with him when he died and they called the priest for me. I did say why on the world would you assume I wanted a priest but turns out he was a lovely man. I told him I was atheist so he didn't offer to pray but we talked about my husband. I found it helpful.
Religious people don't bother me unless they want to run the country. Most of them mean well. I find some if them downright weird but most seem harmless.

[woodsprite]

55. I probably would have just gone with it as well.

I'm religious to a point as well, and if he felt better performing that ritual before surgery, OK by me.
I'd just be glad he didn't feel he needed a drink to steady his hands.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. I'd want the people taking me apart as happy and calm as possible

Wouldnt really care, especially once I was unconscious.

[840high]

57. I'd be fine with prayer. Can't hurt.

[Xolodno]

58. I'm a USDA Grade A, Select Choice, Guaranteed and Verified....Heretic.

I reject the Trinity Doctrine and all Ecumenical Councils (and no...I'm not Mormon or JW). In another time, I would be burned at the stake in a slow and painful death...or racked, intestines slowly pulled out, etc. (you atheist would be lucky, they wouldn't waste their time and give you a quick death).

With that said...his prayer is not a reflection of my beliefs. If prayer makes him more confident and sure of himself in his abilities...so be it. I couldn't give a rats ass if he prayed to Vishnu, Bhuda, Zeus or the Babylonian goddess of fire. I have my beliefs and he or she has theirs.

The successful outcome is not going to change my beliefs because of his prayers....only reinforce my own in that my view of God was watching out for me....because hey....my God was guiding his hand, right?

But since you're an atheist, his confidence was helped by believing in what you view as a myth. Ultimately...would you want a surgeon who is confident...or apprehensive? So who cares if you see his beliefs as a myth, its only a problem if he relies on them instead of being a professional.

[Warpy]

60. A little uncomfortable but not as uncomfortable as I'd have felt

if the doctor had wanted me to join in.

As long as that doesn't happen, I don't care. My own taste in music tends to the spiky and weird, so I'm used to work music being something I'm not nuts about. But not my circus, not my monkeys and they can listen to whatever they want to, especially when I'm knocked out.

The truth is that we atheists live in a world where we are vastly outnumbered and if you're anywhere in Dixie except a few college towns, you're ridiculously outnumbered.

So as long as they don't bully me to join their circus, I'm only minimally uncomfortable.

[Nye Bevan]

61. I wouldn't care at all. Whatever ritual he is used to for getting the correct mindset

to perform the operation, is fine with me. And I'd rather the nurses sing a hymn than sing Miley Cyrus songs.

[SheilaT]

62. I would mind a great deal.

I want any doctor to be devoted to science, NOT to some superstitious clap-trap.

I'm reminded of when in natural disasters people will come out an thank Jesus for saving their lives, and I always want to ask, what kind of a sadistic bastard is this Jesus fellow that he randomly kills.

The surgeon's responsibility is to the patient, to knowing how to do the procedure correctly. If he wants to pray, he can do it on his own time.
What if instead, the surgeon wanted to recite some sort of terrible misogynist or racist screed. Is that okay?

I am a non believer and all of the supposed studies that show prayer heals have actually been discredited, although it's almost impossible to find that information. What works is science and real medicine. Just think about the parents who pray for their sick kids to be healed, and those kids die. When they would have lived had they gone to a doctor.

Anyway, good for you that it didn't bother you, but it is completely inappropriate for a doctor to do that.

[cbayer]

63. While harmless, I think it's really inappropriate.

First of all, he is assuming you are just like him, which is wrong.

He can say his prayer silently and turn off the music if the patient is put to sleep.

I would say something to him during your next visit. I'm sure he means well, but this is not right.

[WinkyDink]

66. Doc OUGHT to have prayed silently to himself. Didn't need a human audience (See: Matthew 6.6).

http://biblehub.com/matthew/6-6.htm

King James Bible
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

[3catwoman3]

79. ExACTly!!!

I am no biblical scholar, but I am familiar with, and in total agreement with, that verse from Matthew. I am a health care professional myself, and think this is totally inappropriate and presumptuous, altho I have no doubt it is meant well. I can only imagine the shocked looks I would get from the mothers of my patients if I prayed out loud before every prescription I wrote for ear infections or strep.

The surgeon waiting to announce this ritual until you are strapped down on the OR table puts you is a very awkward position, and leaves the doc with all the power. How many people would be inclined to get up and walk away at that point in the situation. I'd love to know if that has ever happened to this guy.

[pnwmom]

88. Saying the few words out loud is what helps this doc to clear his head.

"Ought to" doesn't apply. It's just based on the doc's feelings, if you're an atheist. So what's the harm?

I'd want the doc to feel as confidant as possible before cutting into my body. If saying some words out loud helped him, fine.

[randome]

103. Amen! (That's irony. Or sarcasm. Or whatever.)

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[WinkyDink]

104. I do get that, really. I just think it's weird.

[greatauntoftriplets]

67. I'd figure that if the surgeon thought it'd help him, go for it.

After all, it was you eye that he was messing with. I've had cataract surgery on both eyes (was first diagnosed in my early 40s -- young, but there's a long family history) and my guy played Gordon Lightfoot through both procedures. I wanted to sing along.

[randome]

68. Prayer is mostly a way for one part of the brain to communicate with the other.

I wouldn't worry about it. What 'they' call prayer, we call 'reflection'. It's really the same thing operating by a different process.

That being said, I despise organized religion on general, intellectual principles.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[seveneyes]

70. I believe in medical science, both believers and non-believers think they know, but they don't

If more people were guided by facts, life would be much more realistic.

[DrDan]

95. I agree with you - I am as irritated with non-believers trying to loudly argue their

positions as I am with believers.

No proof either way.

[customerserviceguy]

71. Thanks for starting this discussion

I admit, it would have creeped me out a bit, too. Not just because I'm an atheist, but because in all my prior medical treatment (I admit, I've not needed much) I've never found a preachy medical practitioner, and it would weird me out to finally have that experience.

However, some of the folks who have answered above have given me reason to not fear this happening some day, and to accept it with respect for the people who feel that they need whatever it takes for them to do a good job for me. As long as I'm free not to reciprocate in kind, they can express their faith traditions in whatever way they want. I used to go to an orthodox Jewish opthamologist (he's since retired) and there were mezzuzahs on the doors inside the office (except the restroom doors, of course), and it didn't creep me out.

[Oilwellian]

72. The same thing happened to me before having cataract surgery

It was during my last office visit before the surgery. He had just gone over the procedure and then asked if he could say a prayer. I thought it was kind of weird, but didn't feel offended. I try not to sweat the small stuff. If he had proselytized, I would have cancelled the whole thing and started over with a different doctor. Saying a simple prayer wasn't worth going several more weeks without being able to see clearly.

[panader0]

76. The prayer issue aside, how did the operation go?

Well I hope.

[trof]

110. Great. Absolutely painless.

Vision still improving.

[Rex]

89. Agnostic here...if it makes the surgeon feel more confidence or better, then I am all for it.

I've never seen any harm in someone wanting to pray to their selected deity.

[cherokeeprogressive]

92. I couldn't imagine in a thousand years being even slightly concerned about it one way or the other.

[Tikki]

99. Nobody is as uncomfortable as me when it comes to religious zealots and me interacting...

but, I have rarely gotten but a minute or two to talk to the actual surgeon the times I've had surgery.

I am putting my health in his/her hands and I am trusting my General Practitioner or Specialist to guide me to the best surgeon
for my procedure.

My GP would never talk about religion with me but I have to trust her judgment and I do.

So, yes my surgeon can be a religious person...all religions included...

Tikki

[GusBob]

100. hope your surgery went well but the surgeon will likely alter this strategy

Worked in an ASC for years and we have Drs did this. Sooner or later something will go wrong. A patient will freak out., " why are you praying? Is there something wrong?" Phaco is a simple procedure they are told time and again why does the Dr have to pray? There are other scenerios as well none of them pleasant nor necessary.

The worst case is a bad surgical outcome which happens. The prayed over patients are always more angry than the others. Livid and they ain't blaming God.

The wiser surgeons amended their habit and asked the pts. If they could pray with them in the exam room in the days or weeks before their surgery. Its more private and face to face no masks gowns etc. No problems either

[Quayblue]

101. he had the decency to ask

And to me, that speaks volumes about a persons character.

glad everything went well for you.

peace

[JustAnotherGen]

102. I'm a UU

Other people's faith doesn't bother me.

Now I'm married to a UU - former - just a believer in Spirit. He's a juried artist. But his artistic abilities showed at a very young age - try 3.

He believes it's something from Spirit.

But even though his talent is he feels 'spirit' - he believes science is of human beings. I read your post to him. He agrees. And he would have been nervous.

Art is spirit, wine and weed - science just is.

[bigwillq]

105. As long as I am not forced to participate, I have no issue with it (nt)

[KinMd]

107. A gambler would refer to this as"covering your bets"...cause ya never know..

[quaker bill]

108. I have no problem with religion

but I always hope the guys with the scalpels know their job and are not in any need of divine intervention.

[Xyzse]

112. Well, I for one think people have their own superstitions.

If the Doctor has those, heck, I'd let them do whatever, if it makes them feel more at ease.

If they feel more confidend in doing whatever they are doing, particularly any sort of operation, I am all for it.
It is like touching a 4 leaf clover before preparing for something that might be dangerous.

So yeah, I don't care much as long as they can do the job, and if it makes them feel better equipped to do something, go right ahead.

[LanternWaste]

114. Traditions, rituals, customs, or habits, if benign, are of no real concern to me one way or the othe

Traditions, rituals, customs, or habits, if benign, are of no real concern to me one way or the other. Had he wanted to wear his lucky boxers, or rub a rabbit foot, or spend ten minutes chanting-- I'd say more power to him if he's better centered from it.