Popular Gamers website tells misogynists to go away.

[sufrommich]

When it comes time to make a point about an important issue the tool I usually default to is humour, or satire, because I find it’s easiest to change people’s minds if you can make them laugh along with you. A lot of awful things have happened this week, and in the week before, and I’ve tried a few times to think of a clever way I could write them up while still getting the point across that, hey, things are really bad. I can’t. So here we are.

This week, Anita Sarkeesian had to leave her home after receiving horrific death and rape threats online. Her crime? She made a video that suggested maybe, just maybe, video games could treat women better. Game developer Tim Schafer linked to the video on his Twitter account, urging people to watch it, and in response people literally told him to go and kill himself.

Last week, indie developer Zoe Quinn had her personal life spilled over the internet in its entirety by a jilted ex-boyfriend. Now she’s being chased all over the internet and out of her house by more death and rape threats, subjected to a barrage of public condemnations of her private sex life, and being held up by angry human garbage as an example of how feminism is destroying video games. Fez developer Phil Fish had his website hacked and his entire life, his social security numbers, his financial details, everything, dumped online. His crime? Speaking up in support of Zoe Quinn.

This isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened, of course. This crap just keeps going. People who proudly call themselves “gamers” everywhere have been harassing and trying to exclude women for the last ten years, citing every pathetic excuse in the book from a “feminist agenda” to “gamer culture is under attack”. It’s disgusting and it’s awful, and it doesn’t even make sense. What are these people even afraid of?


http://games.on.net/2014/08/readers-threatened-by-equality-not-welcome/



Really an excellent article.Fark and now this website,I hope this is a trend.

[Warpy]

1. Sniveling males who never grew up emotionally

will always have 4chan. I think even Reddit is getting a little tired of them there.

I always loved Fark but I was never much of a presence there. That might change now that they've told the woman hating little boys to go fuck themselves elsewhere.

[seabeyond]

4. and the glaring elephant on du.... as this becomes a hot topic across the net. nt

[sufrommich]

12. Yep.

[Luminous Animal]

14. +1

[sufrommich]

8. I post on Fark and I'm a woman.I was glad to see Fark

make that decision.

[LeftyMom]

2. DU is behind the times on this one, and it shows. :/

[Scootaloo]

13. I was just gonna say n/t

[malthaussen]

3. Be nice if it were a trend.

I don't spend a lot of time around gaming sites, but I'm always startled when somebody starts some totally OT misogynistic rant. Dude, we were talking about inventory management, where did that come from?

-- Mal

[sufrommich]

6. I see that on websites too. I'd hate to have people like that

in my real life.

[mythology]

16. You probably do have people like that in your real life

But in real life, their face might run into somebody's hand, or they might get fired, or dumped by their significant other or otherwise have a real life consequence so they don't say that sort of thing.

Online, they don't think there's a consequence and so idiots feel free to mouth off.

[MotorCityMan]

84. I worked xbox customer support for two years, this is a very real problem

I spent two years working xbox support; hated it, not a customer support person. I had multiple calls from younger females who were being harassed constantly online. One was playing Call of Duty with a couple of young men. She ended up kicking their asses in the game, so they proceeded to pile on the anti-female abuse on her. They managed to locate her every time she was online, and continued with the abuse.
Another call was even scarier. The young woman was getting threatening messages from another gamer. He had her name, address and phone info. The threats she was receiving were getting progressively worse. I told her to save her messages and contact her local police.
I always felt so helpless in these situations. All we could do was to have them block contact with the gamer (which never seemed to work) and for them to file a complaint on their gamertag. Microsoft would review the complaints, and ban gamertags if it was warranted.

[justiceischeap]

5. I'll have to start visiting that game site

I was actually surprised with a recent Reddit thread about how great and inclusive Borderlands 2 is. One jackass went the way of the turd and I called him out on it and he got down voted too.

I've seen a lot of horrible comments on Reddit in general but the Borderlands communities there are pretty mellow.

[seabeyond]

7. borderland and.. gears of war seems to me. you play that one? nt

[NuclearDem]

19. I wouldn't say Gears of War.

From what I remember, there were about three female characters in that game, and one of them just gets used as a plot device for one of the male characters.

[seabeyond]

20. my husband often played one of the female roles, and they seemed

as competent and able as the men. he plays on line. but, it was just watching him, not playing at all myself.

bummer. i thought they were a good one.

[justiceischeap]

22. I tried GoW but didn't like the game mechanics

I play video games mostly to relax and when a games mechanics stress me out, I'm pretty much done with it.

I will say though that games are getting better (or I'm becoming more selective). GTA will always be sexist, that's what the franchise was built on. Mass Effect is a fairly female positive franchise as is Dragon Age.

Of course, most video games aren't gonna win any feminist awards but I mostly play games that I can play a female gendered character and I find those games tend to be more female positive.

[DonCoquixote]

27. a lot more games are getting females

andf not just cheescake either. Tomb raider was given a full rehab by a female game maker. Bioshock Infinite, whos emain weakness was the idiot hero Booker Dewitt, was given a new shine when the fromer princess to be rescued, Elizabeth, got the spotlight and proved to be three times her dad.

[sufrommich]

10. I don't post on Reddit,it's layout annoys me.But yeah,from what

I've read on Reddit,they've got a real infestation over there.

[demmiblue]

9. Damn, that was a forceful and definitive statement!

Very, very refreshing... I hope this trend continues!

[sufrommich]

11. Yeah,it was great! nt

[lovemydog]

15. Thank you.

I'm gonna check out that site. I love games, loved Borderlands 2 & am looking forward to playing the next installment which will be out mid-October. It's witty title is Borderlands 2: The Presequel!

[Politicub]

17. The owner of the site is awesome

[ancianita]

18. Thanks for this. Though I'm no gamer, I mentioned Sarkeesian in another thread, got no response.

I read that Sarkeesian was attacked for refusing to be marginalized in game reviewing of sexist tropes.

My son and friends, as gamers, mentioned these problems at least five years ago.

It's scary to me because I thought this age group was so far ahead of older people on gender equality. Sad to think they've just replicated sexism in the tech realm and been such public misogynists.

Just one of a few articles I've read so far. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian

If DU's behind on this, maybe gamers could post more about these issues?

[justiceischeap]

23. You'd be surprised at the age range of gamers

And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the older gamers that are the majority of the problem.

[ancianita]

24. I'm aware. If the average age of gamers is over thirty, that's still late Gen X and Millennials.

Are game designers, coders and production people also old?

I'm not trying to assign generational blame, but just registering a disappointment, having believed that the gaming industry presents itself as a world by and for the young. Given the current situation, I hope the vast majority are not immature.

I've learned that technology doesn't necessarily improve people's judgment, morals or behavior; that simply because technology builds some capacities, that it's still either a tool or a weapon, depending on its user.

[justiceischeap]

25. I think the age if the producers don't have much to do

With it as much as writing and producing to the majority of their demographic. I do know it's mostly a male industry, so the thinking and writing tends to be very one sided.

[shaayecanaan]

29. used to be a staunchly male subculture

In a sense, it mirrors the "disco sucks" reaction from white males when rock music got kicked off the front page. These days, candy crush makes way, way more money than any given fps or RTS game. So developers are chasing the casual gamer dollar and male gamers are feeling jilted.

[jamzrockz]

48. To tell you the truth

Real gamers do not consider players of candy crush and farmville to be gamers. The console games are still mainly male and mostly under the age of 20. I play a lot of console and PC games and I can tell you that 80%+ of the hardcore gamers (read not cell phone games) are still male and young.

I remember by days playing the mmo game Anarchy online and good twinkers, pvper and raiders were still in those demographic. The older players were the casual types, never come out for pvp unless org towers got attacked and never really cared about farming the top gears.

[shaayecanaan]

49. the developers regard them as gamers

because they pay, and the developers are the ones that matter.

[jamzrockz]

70. I guess

they are gamers the same way solitaire and poker players are gamers too.

[Initech]

64. The older gamers are definitely a problem on other boards.

I'm a moderator on a tech forum and the older gamers definitely don't get that racism, sexism, misogyny, and posting insane conservative conspiracy theories isn't OK, and I've banned people left and right for it. It's definitelya problem and there's no easy solution for it.

[Initech]

21. Death threats for suggesting that we all get along?

Sorry but that only disproves her point.

[DonCoquixote]

26. like any bunch of trolls

these guys are whining because they see their power is going. Many of the million-dollar designers, like Uncharted's Amy henning, are the ones IN CHARGE. The best video game critics are folks like Morgan Wenn and jessica Chobot, and many of the best Pro gamers are LADIES! Of course, now that they realize that white male is no longer the defualt setting for dominance, they whine.

Get used to being on the losing side bastards! Yes, I am Male, but frankly, I do not need to be associated with weaklings like you.

[arcane1]

57. Back so soon?

I figured you would have found a life by now. But if this is the highlight of your week, more power to you.

[trueblue2007]

59. I think anti-women stuff on DU needs to stop

PLEASE STOP

[hrmjustin]

61. .

[arcane1]

62. Agreed. If I ever see any white male bashing on DU, I'll speak out about it.

Welcome back.

[hrmjustin]

65. you have nothing better to do?

[arcane1]

66. It's tough work being the superior race AND superior gender!

It apparently takes up most of their Sundays

[hrmjustin]

67. Poor fella!

[hrmjustin]

69. And so your mission is to constantly sign up to tell us this?

[DonCoquixote]

74. pardon me

but who the bleep is this person that keeps saying "message removed?" Did I attract a secret admirer or something ?

[hrmjustin]

75. Someone who wants us to know whiite people are oppressed.

[DonCoquixote]

77. oh joy

yet discussionist will gladly take his money.

[hrmjustin]

78. This is why I rarely post there.

[AverageJoe90]

72. As would I.

However, though, it seems to me that 90% of these trolls don't actually genuinely care when it DOES happen. And most of the time, they just cause trouble for the hell of it. They are there for themselves, and none other than themselves.

[DonCoquixote]

28. hey skinner, note this part

"So, here’s another change for you: if you really think feminism, or women, are destroying games, or that LGBT people and LGBT relationships have no place in games, or that games in any way belong to you or are “under attack” from political correctness or “social justice warriors”: please leave this website. I don’t want your clicks, I don’t want your hits, I don’t want your traffic. Leave now and please don’t come back."

I would tell DU to "grow a pair" and follow this example, but that WOULD be sexist, so how about showing a third of the fortitude of the feminists on here, who, thanks to you letting the MRA's run ramshod, both here and at that other site, have made many good people want to leave, but do not. Frankly, you would do better to use these ladies as examples of guts than ant of the manchildren you are allwing to damage this site!

[Jim Lane]

31. Skinner's problem is that "eliminate misogyny" is not a self-executing statement.

You're upset because, in your opinion, Skinner is "letting the MRA's run ramshod, both here and at that other site...." But who exactly should get the banhammer?

I don't consider myself a misogynist but I've been accused of posting "MRA baloney." If everyone so accused is banned, then some good people will be gone, either because they're banned or because they leave in disgust at the resulting enforced conformity in which even legitimate difference of opinion is criminalized if it inconveniences some posters' agendas. On the other hand, if some of those so accused are nevertheless allowed to remain, then people who disagree with that decision will complain that DU is behind the times in allowing misogyny to flourish.

It's just not accurate to state the problem as being simply whether Skinner has guts or not.

[DonCoquixote]

37. my retort

Look, I know ince in a while people can be accusedd of something, and part of a process is to determine guilt or innocence, however, let's be honest, some people show repeated patterns of behavior that are not accidents, and if you want a list, let's see how dogpiles on a feminist next time, all the usual names, all the sual reasons, all the links to sites that say women are evil.

It is accurate to question guts, as yes, Skinner did open the door for these people at that other site, and they brag about how they plan there to target people HERE. He can say "look, I do not want your money if you cannot play nice" like the site mentioned in the OP did.

[Jim Lane]

38. I'm curious about what you report about Discussionist

I've spent very little time there. Are you saying there are posts there about how to harass and/or alert-stalk people on DU? I'd really love to see a link if you have one handy.

[DonCoquixote]

39. it would tak e a while but

http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1015&pid=3207

In this thread, peopel discuss ways to avoid being banned or caught. It also praises anti leftists:

http://www.discussionist.com/10153043#post4

"4. JacksBack24 will be a fucking hero for taking the slings and arrows of the leftist horde and being the first to go down. lol...

It's an honor I think, being the first. "

or this:

24. Yes... I would like to know if multiple registrations (sock puppets) are disallowed here...
If they are, then, see ya. People who have multiple active accounts just to agree with themselves--or argue with others simultaneously. are pretty low, IMO.

or 42. No, everyone who gets two posts hidden in 12 hours or less gets reviewed.
The software makes the assumption that if the community has hidden two or more of your posts in 12 hours or less, you are having some kind of meltdown or are otherwise not participating constructively and need a time out.

or 29.
http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=1421

Anti male Hoffer group have destroyed DU
I am convinced at least one is a RW spoiling the pot

Just as one negative person can demoralize an entire department at a business the HOF group have done to DU. I know several liberal women who left DU over being attacked by the group

So you have a bunch of threadsa were people are deoicated to attacking DU attacking women, and adivsing each oither how to beat the system. And skinner wants me to give him m,oney so that he can helps THESE people?

[Jim Lane]

46. Thanks for making the effort, but I didn't find a Strategic Disruptor Command planning center.

The first thread you linked is very hard to follow because of all the deleted messages. The heart of it seems to be someone complaining that he was banned from DU while other people try to explain to him the his DU account was merely suspended for review. In the course of all this there are posts explaining DU's process, which would provide useful information for prospective disruptors, but the same is true of the pages here that explain the various rules. Maybe I'd form a different impression if i could see the whole thing or if I were more familiar with the cast of characters.

The second thread interested me because I've seen so many posts on DU trashing Discussionist. That thread has a fair number of posts expressing a preference for Discussionist over DU. Well, it takes all kinds.

[DonCoquixote]

50. You will find what you wish to find

I saw people adivsing people how to beat DU policy, and praising people as heroes who "were taken down by the liberal horde." Also, the sheer amount of deletes then reposts than deletes showsa mouse trying to avoid a cat.

The point is that people on discussioniosts are bragging about causing mischief here, either by praising those who do, or getting advice and encouragment. Now, if Joe or Jane X wanted to make a blog to do that, that's their thing, but do you know DU is not only helping folks who brag about hurting us, but giving them the nice snazzy new site to do it, is enough for me to say that at the very very least, we are being treat like unwanted stepchildren, when WE are the people that gave Skinner the money to go forward.

But none of that will be useful until you find what you see as a " Strategic Disruptor Command planning center." I would say thanks for making the effort, but I do not see much effort made other than to defend a previously held position.

[Jim Lane]

83. Your criticism of me is based on misreading what I wrote.

You write, "I do not see much effort made other than to defend a previously held position."

What previously held position would that be?

If you look at my posts in this thread, you won't find one where I said that Discussionist is innocuous. Instead, you'll see that I said I didn't know much about the site, and that my lack of knowledge prevented me from really understanding the thread you linked to.

My reference to the "Strategic Disruptor Command planning center" was a joking way of saying that, although (as I stated) I did see some posts that could be helpful to right-wingers plotting to troll DU, I didn't see the level of coordination that I'd been expecting. That doesn't mean it isn't there. When I say I didn't see it, it means I didn't see it, and I chose not to spend the time to wade through a bunch of Discussionist threads to form an overall opinion of the site.

That's why I have no previously held position to defend.

I was kind of surprised to see you refer to our exchange as a "sparring match". It can't be much of a sparring match when the other guy doesn't even lace up his gloves.

[DonCoquixote]

52. by the way

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125549985
Here is more of that command center you did not find.

[seabeyond]

41. sometimes, we know some of our beliefs do not fall under the banner. so, we shut up about it.

out of respect to the board as a whole, and self preservation. their are democratic areas i am not totally on board. and i keep it to myself. in the past, there was a clear line on what was allowed and what was not. yes, we knew there were men that di not tow that line. but, htey shut up about it or faced repercussions.

that is being a part of a progressive democratic board.

[DonCoquixote]

42. I do not think anybody is 100 percent anything

I am mostly leftist, but when people speak of North korea as a wonderful place, I laugh. All the same, there are people whose patterns show behavior that , at the very least, is NOT progressive. These folks are NOT the offshoots, the one timers, the people politely asking "hey, I do not get this."

and I am sorry having to dredge that Discussiont stuff up, but some people will demand noithign less than the proof. I would not mind if discussionist was some other site, but they are a haven for people who did bad stuuf here. Dodge and Chevy are owned by GM, differenmt cars, but if Dodge made a ad that said "hit a Chevy driver today" yes, I would be upset if I was a Chevy driver.

[seabeyond]

40. what a fuggin awesome twist that i LOVE.

you are brilliant. simply, brilliant. too interesting. i might steal that one, lol. thanks don. always.

[DonCoquixote]

43. no problem

It is an honor, duty,priviledge and pleasure for this Don Quixote to charge at the windmills of the mediocre. If that makes me a "white Knight" then fuck it

[Prophet 451]

30. I hope but doubt it becomes a trend

Fact is, the majority of websites are whores for clicks. If it raises traffic, even in a negative way, they don't really care about the content.

While we're on teh subject, there also needs to be some way to report some of the misogyny that's dished out IN game. I'm not talking about the normal trash talk you find in any competitive environment. That's fine and a normal part of gaming. I'm talking about the misogynistic slurs and occasional threats that seem to crop up with worrying regularity. Some games have mechanisms for reporting and banning people who do that but most don't.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. I always play titanfall as a female pilot. Never thought about it, just do.

If there are any misogynists, it probably messes with their heads when I wax their asses.

[Prophet 451]

33. My SO plays League of Legends

And she routinely gets all kinds of gender-specific slurs from the opposing team and, on at least a couple of occasions, rape threats.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I have limited experience, but generally the games I play it seems like most people dont talk at all

I don't. Not that I wouldn't, but I have headphones on for the sound and usually dont want to bother anyone else in the house.

If someone is being a jagoff on the chat i usually just quit - or mute them.

[temporary311]

35. I think the general assumption,

at least with some online games, is that female characters are played by dudes until proven otherwise.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Probably.

Actually in that game in my experience you really dont have time to figure out the gender of the people who are trying to blow you up, and vice-versa.

[Jamaal510]

44. Now that's what I like to see.

Prioritizing principles over clicks...too bad YouTube won't/can't do the same with their comments sections. Even the modest steps that they have taken to fight bigotry there do a horrible job at wiping out the problem.

[Cha]

45. Imagine that! Online "misogynists" not liking that and threatening people with their

LIVES!

"This week, Anita Sarkeesian had to leave her home after receiving horrific death and rape threats online. Her crime? She made a video that suggested maybe, just maybe, video games could treat women better. Game developer Tim Schafer linked to the video on his Twitter account, urging people to watch it, and in response people literally told him to go and kill himself."

mahalo sufrommich

[steve2470]

55. mahalo Cha, hope your weather is good ! :) nt

[nomorenomore08]

47. This paragraph I especially like:

"The problem here is that these squealing man-children, so desperate to keep women out of their precious games, want it both ways. They want gaming to be taken seriously as a culture and art form, while at the same time throwing an unbelievable tantrum when subjected to serious criticism. This is ludicrous and immature on so many levels. Gaming isn’t for you, anymore. Gaming is for everyone. Everyone gets to have their say, to make their criticism, and gaming doesn’t need you to defend it."

[DonCoquixote]

51. exactly

Esoecially as frankly, the age of girls not being gamers died in the 90's, a well deserved death. I have had the pleasure of gaming with many females,( Oh snarky types people I knew were females, btw, because I talked with them over skype afterword. ) They are as great as any. Of course, I have given example of great designers and great game critics, people who, like it or not fanboys, will leave their mark on the medium.

[steve2470]

54. DU and all privately-owned websites need to do this, imho

There's no excuse for it in the 21st century.

[AverageJoe90]

71. I'm glad they took a stand.

I've desired more diversity in games myself, even before I joined this site, really.

There are indeed a small, if highly vocal, subset of gamers who truly can't stand the idea of LGBT characters, or same-sex relationships, or well-written female protagonists, etc. Well, as a gamer myself, I'd honestly rather these people just screw off and go away. Honestly speaking, I'm no fan of SJWs anymore than I am MRAs(believe me, some of the most hardcore SJWs can be pretty damn screwy in their own right, though usually more pathetic than downright nasty), but all the vast majority of feminist gamers of either gender really want is more diversity, and more variation in female characters, etc. That's hardly endangering gaming, and, in fact, just the opposite: it will *help* us in the long term. All of us.

[jamzrockz]

73. I have to caution people

reading this story that there are always 2 sides to every story. This reason why the whole gamergate is blowing up in the console and PC gaming community is because the whole incident exposed what gamers have always suspected was the problem with game journalism. And that is game developers being in bed with game journalists. This is not about misogyny but all about corruption.

Also Zoe Quinn is not that innocent to begin with, she has doxxed(sp) other people's personal information that she has had a problem with, she has smeared the whole wizardchan(a website for depressed male virgins) just because of what 2 posts with anonymous tag said to her. I am not entirely sure what her problem with "The young fine capitalists" was but she and her pals in the game journalism destroyed that group which was a group of female game developers who started a contest to help female gamer developers with a gaming concept to bring their idea to life.

Again, please do your research before calling everyone criticizing the whole the quinnspiracy a misogynist.
As for Anita Sarkisian, I will leave this very well made critic of her for you all to watch.

Lastly for anyone who thinks gamers are just paranoid about the feminist influence infiltrating their gaming community, you just have to watch this clip below. These gaming communities are just about the only place left for guys to be guys and you bet some guys are worried when they see these people who are not really part of their community trying to change things.

Please try and watch quinnspiracy theory - in and out edition to get the other side and believe you me, there is another side to this story

[DonCoquixote]

76. 2 side, maybe 3?

I do not need to like or agree with the females who critique games to know that they do not deserve to be threatened with RAPE. Hell, I do not do that to Ann Coulter, despite the fact that she has called for much worse to be done to us liberals, and has encouraged real life violence that is beyond any fucking video game. And if she happens to have a lot of ideas which may or may not be odd, let them be discussed, one female pundit versus several dozen males is not going to threaten males, nor should it even if it was 5 to 5 or 6 to 4 even, because truth is truth.

[jamzrockz]

80. The people that threatened her with

rape are not representative of the gaming community. These people are troll who get off from winding people up. Not saying they should be ignored but the real problem comes when she gives the mainstream non gaming public the impression that all the criticism she is getting are of that sort.

[DonCoquixote]

82. it is easy to say

"these people are not ours" however, to have any more meaning, to have credibilityt, those not like the bad guys need to speak LOUD and CLEAR. Otherwise, it's just is the 99th variant of the old "no TRUE Scotsman would ever do such a thing" line.

And no, she is NOT to blame. Yes, she may give impressions, a lot of them based on some very real nastiness, but you do not ever, ever get to say words that are a slippery slope to "she was asking for it" which of course, leads to "you should not have worn that dress."

Let me take it further, I would not care if she put up a ad in the New York Times that said "abuse me", No means no, it does not matter if she was doing things that would make Lady Gaga gag and Madonna blush, the minute she says no, it means "NO." Not that she did anything remotely microscopically close, but even if we were to say she did, it would still make the actions of these hackers and rape threateners completely, clearly, and yes, absolutely without excuse, period.

Or, as the feminists would say "what part of No is not understood?"

[valerief]

79. I didn't realize the gamer world was full of so much digital and human garbage. nt

[jamzrockz]

81. Its not full of digital human garbage

You cannot judge a group of people by what the trolls in it do. Just imagine reading a couple of misogynist youtube comments and then making the conclusion that youtube community is filled with misogynists. Do you think that would be a fair assessment of the youtube community?