Should there be litmus tests for being a liberal?

[Prophet 451]

Or for being a "proper" liberal?

Should it be our standard that there are certain things you must accept before we consider you one of the tribe? Things like anthropogenic climate change, evolution, white privilege, race realities, patriarchy and so on? I'm not talking about quibbling over fine details, that's all well and good and helps theory evolve. But if you outright reject these things, can you still be considered a liberal in the DU sense of the word?

[napi21]

1. I don't believe in ANY litmus tests for anyone.

That's one of the things that upsets me most about the Pubs. THEY make demands like that!

[Scootaloo]

10. Is John McCain a liberal, then? Dick cheney? Who are you to say they're not?

...see the problem here?

Political ideologies have meanings and definitions and stances and standards. You can't be part of the club if you don't abide by the basics of membership, you know?

The question is, "what are those basics" and... well... that's a good question and I think I'll sit that one out

[lonestarnot]

2. I know what you're getting at, but why the need to box people in? Bottom line is how do you vote.

That is how I chose my friends, associates and products these days. Prolle crazy.

[Prophet 451]

3. The need to box people in

is because, if the party accepts people who don't embrace these values, it soon stops having any cohesion. It stops being "we believe in X" and starts being "vote for us because we're not them" (which is a valid argument in itself but that's a different story). And it leads to the party being dragged further to the right.

[lonestarnot]

4. Just like herding cats, hasn't changed.

[applegrove]

5. Democrats are a big tent. For sure the

GOP would love it if we copied their worst practices and had constant purity tests. Plus it may scare off some independants. That too would please the GOP. Here‘s my purity test for the DU: don‘t do things that please the GOP.

[RKP5637]

30. +1, n/t

[RobertEarl]

6. Either ya are or ya aren't

If liberals can't make the case on the items you listed and garner majority support, then something is wrong.

Well, something is wrong. Why is it wrong and what can we do to make correction?

We have come along way, but much of the path remains before us. Being as most of our best leaders from the 60's were assassinated, we have since then lost direction and are wandering in the woods, as it were.

As for DU, we can all get inside this little box and wave our flags, or we can bring in the independent voters and those willing to listen to our cause and make them feel at home here.

I think we have had great success with that, and why we now have so many authoritarian trolls taking up bandwidth. They hate us for our success.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Where's that fine line between a litmus test and a definition?

We do perhaps spend far too much time boxing ourselves into categories, but that's how humans make sense of things.

Hardly anyone bothers to dig into the philosophical underpinnings of political ideas, so we have these lists. For the most part they work, but blind acceptance seems to be the opposite of liberalism.

[Kalidurga]

8. No

But, if someone sounds a lot like a conservative, I will look at em funny.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. Yes, but loose ones.

There are some positions so egregious that no-one who holds them should be considered liberal - supporting apartheid, for example.

But, beyond things that extreme, it should be an average - if someone is liberal on most issues, but mildly or moderately illiberal on a few, on balance they're still a liberal.

[AverageJoe90]

11. Only a few basic things.

Last edited Wed Sep 3, 2014, 06:08 AM - Edit history (1)

They would include:

1.)Do you accept that all people deserve to be treated fairly, regardless of their race, religion, gender, gender orientation, or nationality, etc.?

2.)Do you accept that women, children, and people in general deserve to be protected from rape, beatings, belittlement, and other forms of abuse?

3.)Do you accept that all the peoples of the world have equal worth?

4.)Do you believe in protecting worker's rights?

5.)Do you believe that humanity should always strive to maintain the progress that we have made?

To be truthful, you don't have to be a liberal to believe any of these things. But I can say that if one does not believe ANY of one of these things, then one is NOT a liberal. Or a progressive.

[Heidi]

15. Why should only children

"be protected from rape, beatings, belittlement, and other forms of abuse"?

[AverageJoe90]

18. You're right, of course. Didn't mean to imply just children.

I'll edit the post to clarify things.

[Live and Learn]

12. I don't believe in tribes or labels.

That being said, I score pretty darn high on any liberal litmus test.

I think much of the quibbling here is less on our belief of the realities of your list but on what prioritization we give them.

In addition, I think we often forget the importance of trying to walk in each others shoes.

For instance, a poor white person may not see themselves as ever having benefited from 'white privilege' even if they have when compared to a person of color in the same class because the difference may not be very apparent since both suffer immensely.

Many groups of people and individuals have and still continue to suffer in our society and we should never negate their suffering even if it isn't at the top of our list of important issues.

[lovemydog]

13. No

[Ken Burch]

14. Well, there should be SOME standards.

It shouldn't just be "it's enough that I SAY I'm a liberal".

For example(speaking in Democratic Party terms) we should NEVER have another presidential nominee as far to the right as the one we had in 1992, for example. It should be a bare minimum requirement that our candidates will defend the poor when they are under slanderous attack and will stand with the unions against all attempts to weaken them.

If there are no expectations at all, the term gets reduced to the last verse of the classic Phil Ochs song:

"Once I was young and impulsive,
I wore every conceivable pin.
Even went to socialist meetings,
learned all the old union hymns.
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
AND THAT'S WHY I'M TURNING YOU IN!
So love me, love me, love me...I'm a liberal."

[get the red out]

16. No

When I see this it disturbs me. We don't march in lock-step like Republicans; we think.

[leftynyc]

17. Who gets to decide?

Who gets to stand judge and jury over someone's political beliefs and see if they fit some arbitrary definition set up by.......who?

[whistler162]

19. There is and we have decided you fail

the litmus test! Please turn in your decoder ring.

Who decides who "passes" the test?

[Prophet 451]

22. Shit! Well, hardly the first club I've been kicked out of n/t

[Shankapotomus]

20. If the Romans had a litmus test

for being Roman, like say only those born on the Italian peninsula, would they have conquered and controlled as much territory as they did? Three quarters loyalty to a broad ideology is better than zero loyalty.

I think it's fine to leave the definition of Liberal or Democrat somewhat open. The finer questions of whether someone is or isn't a climate change believer or feminist ally or evolutionist or advocate of racial equality will naturally have their own standards for inclusion and sets of punishments.

But if you are talking about a liberal message board having such standards for participation, there is nothing stopping anyone from setting up such a forum. You can make the ideological requirements for participation in a message board anything you like. And as much as I agree with the recent feminist push for changes at DU, it would be far easier to just set up a political forum with the rules you want it to have than battling the policies of any existing forum.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Personally I don't think any true liberal would support capital punishment,

especially given the way that it is implemented in the US today. However, I know that there are plenty of DUers (including you) who disagree with me on this, and I am opposed to litmus tests.

[Prophet 451]

23. True enough

Although my support for the DP is conditional upon absolute proof of guilt. Needless to say, the way the US implements the DP falls a long way short of that standard.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i agree. nt

[Starry Messenger]

24. Words have meanings.

Trying to stretch a word to fit an ideology that is normally found on the other end if the spectrum.

There are certain core qualities in liberalism, like believing in reforming capitalism. (Which is why I'm a socialist, not a liberal.) But if someone espouses free market bullshit, why do the get to claim they are liberals?

[dembotoz]

25. i have never been proper

the very idea of it makes me want to rebel

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

26. I think we haver to remember

the name of this site is Democratic Underground. Not "Liberal' Democratic Underground..........

[BKH70041]

27. Human Nature

"My opinion is the correct opinion. Everyone else is either too far left or too far right."

At least that seems to be the viewpoint of about 95% of those posting here. This place is a giant amusement park, but there are some great laughs to be had.

[tularetom]

28. There should be two

For economic policy: people before profits.

For foreign policy: peace before war.

[el_bryanto]

29. Yes and no

Definitive answer I know.

First of all there is a wide range of issues which liberals care about - and everybody has things they care about more than other things. There are certain political issues I just can't get worked up about - and other ones that I care deeply about. That's probably true for everyone.

Secondly, just because I disagree with a person on one issue, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other issues we might well agree on; I personally think it's better to focus on the positive rather than the negative.

Thirdly, sometimes people haven't been exposed to an issue or an idea enough to decide exactly where they come down on it - particularly with controversial issues there might be a need for some evolving, and allowances should be made to allow that evolution.

Fourthly - sometimes people at DU treat it as hostile territory - while we do have disruptors, most people are here because they are generally liberal. The fact that someone disagrees in one area doesn't necessarily indicate that they are a bad person or a dishonest person.

That said - I think if you generally support Republicanism or Libertarianism - than yes, you aren't a good liberal. If you support inequality for some classes of people, than you aren't a good liberal. If you forward misogynist or racist arguments, than you aren't a good liberal.

Bryant

[Inkfreak]

31. There isn't. And I could give a damn about one.

I vote blue. And I know what I stand for. Having random anonymous people on the internet declare "your not so and so if"...Means nothing to me. At all.

[kcr]

32. Should there be litmus tests for being a chair?

I mean, it isn't fair to exclude cotton balls. Or blenders, or airplanes, or rainbows. Why can't they be chairs, too? It doesn't make sense, definitions. So restricting.

[HERVEPA]

33. Yes

Not one for being a Democrat, but one for being liberal.

Pro-choice
Pro strong gun control
Pro equal rights for all
Pro high minimum wage
Pro environment
and a bunch of others

[JustAnotherGen]

34. I like your list

Because it's not a flowery 'philosophical' load of nonsense. These are tangible things that we can legislate to.


I think with the millenials we are going to have a challenge in that some of them had hardcore - You're okay. I'm okay. Everyone has to feel good. Your personal self esteem is important. Everyone gets a trophy!

^Not realistic - Not helpful^

Your list - realistic, tangible, get it done!

I'm adding against the Death Penalty to your list though.

[HERVEPA]

35. Thank You

And adding the no death penalty is a good idea also.

[LadyHawkAZ]

39. ^This

[G_j]

36. OK, somebody had to do it...

"Love Me I'm a Liberal" by Phil Ochs

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
And I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to the civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
And I'm glad that the commies were thrown out
From the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
And I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Ah, the people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
Now I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Yes, I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I attend all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
And I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Sure, once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[FLPanhandle]

37. There are hundreds of topics and thousands of solutions

Some people are passionate about some, indifferent about others, against some.

I would bet there aren't two people here that agree on each and everyone one of them.

[raouldukelives]

38. Reality is the litmus test.

Those with empathy and intelligence, who have the ability to walk in others shoes and who are well informed of the facts will see the truth and react according to their internal nature.
I don't think the modern definition of being a liberal is anything more than common sense at this point. There are facts staring us in the face and people can either look them in the eye or avert their gaze.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Pigeon holes are for pigeons.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. it's not a litmus test, but i think acknowledging that demographic differences impact lives severely

is a cornerstone of being a liberal in america