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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow positive are you of Zimmerman's guilt or innocence?
Last edited Wed Apr 11, 2012, 06:13 PM - Edit history (1)
I just read several threads on FR on the subject, and they all seem to be 100% certain of what happened.
How about you? Do you know for certain what happened?
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)That is the appropriate and accepted word.
janx
(24,128 posts)Trayvon Martin was a 17-year-old. Not a child, but a very (barely) young man. What are you saying here?
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)janx
(24,128 posts)Trayvon was unarmed, but he was not a child. He was, however, an adolescent--not quite an adult.
Iggo
(47,577 posts)He was a child, walking home from the store, with a bag of candy, when he was attacked by a man with a gun, who shot him. And now he's a dead child.
He was never a man and he'll never be one.
Because George Zimmerman shot him dead.
MADem
(135,425 posts)parents. Why are you so eager to morph him into an adult?
Becka2515
(58 posts)nt
BklnDem75
(2,918 posts)which is still a child.
madokie
(51,076 posts)i was fixing to say the same
Ian David
(69,059 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,769 posts)That can be determined because he decided to chase him down.
It might be 2nd degree, depending on the evidence.
bayareamike
(602 posts)I'm guessing it's either going to be voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree murder. I'm leaning toward voluntary manslaughter.
Baitball Blogger
(46,769 posts)I am happy for the Martin family because this is going to be the first step towards acceptance of the horrible thing that has happened to their family.
cali
(114,904 posts)iscooterliberally
(2,863 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)But I do know that in these United States as currently (ahem) constituted, if enough people (or the right people) agree that Zimmerman's a very, very bad person, we can have him summarily executed.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts).. is whether Zimmerman tried to tackle / detain / assault Martin.
And I think that's what the case will hinge on.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)because their hasn't been a trial yet where evidence has been presented.
I don't know the guy either, so I can't prescribe motives or tell you what his thoughts may or may not have been.
Certainly doesn't stop many here from telling you all sorts of things about the guy that they "know".
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)People who weren't within 1000 miles of the shooting somehow know EXACTLY what happened and PRECISELY what was in Zimmerman's heart.
Mysfyt
(50 posts)you do know you are an endangered specie don't you?
+10 for the sarcasm
rbixby
(1,140 posts)That all being said, I'm leaning towards guilty, but again, I think he should be charged with something and let justice take its course.
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)despite being told by 911 not to do so, and that he shot that unarmed person dead.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)d_r
(6,907 posts)not certain how that will turn out, that's why they should have one
ingac70
(7,947 posts)whether or not it was on purpose will be hashed out in court.
hamsterjill
(15,224 posts)I will welcome the opportunity for some real evidence to be presented, and whether I like it or not, George Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. My personal opinion is that Zimmerman is guilty, but I believe he has the right to a defense, etc. and I want him to have that without interference from exaggerated stories in the media, etc.
Now, having said that...if a 911 operator told me to quit following someone, I would QUIT following that person!
ileus
(15,396 posts)pokerfan
(27,677 posts)They can't all be true.
1. He stepped out of his car to read a street sign and got jumped from behind.
2. He followed Martin a ways, gave up and got jumped while retreating to his vehicle.
3. Martin confronted him verbally. "You got a problem? Now you do! You are going to die tonight. You are going to die right now!"
I wonder if he's going to use one of these as the basis of his defense or will he come up with a new one?
Boabab
(120 posts)like Trayvon approaching the car and threatening little Georgie.
I think they're all concoctions, and that there was no fight at all. GZ's clothing, and the lack of any soiling, smudges or blood 35 minutes after the shooting speaks volumes.
polichick
(37,152 posts)The point of the trial is to illuminate the circumstances.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Hopefully soon, because I'm really bored of this after so many weeks.
slampoet
(5,032 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,769 posts)From the aspect of my own moral compass, he is guilty, not a doubt in my mind. From an actual legal stand point... I am not certain I understand the law as it is written well enough to decide... I am not very good at legalese.
WolverineDG
(22,298 posts)proving it up is another story. But the cops shouldn't have done the defense attorney's job in the first place.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)No I am not. Just showing a gun could have been enough of a defense to get Trayvon running. I want to hear more at trial about whether he needed to use deadly force.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)All murders are killings, but not all killings are murders.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)So even if he confessed, he is still innocent until the jury rules guilty? Maybe in legalese. But in reality, he IS guilty of killing Trayvon.
I didn't say "murder".
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)There can be a difference. Killing someone in self-defense is not a crime. We don't know if that's what happened here, that's what the jury will decide.
Boabab
(120 posts)Even Jeb Bush has stated that the SYG law did not apply to GZ, and called for him to be arrested.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)But merely speaking to someone is not an assault. That's his version of what happened. The jury will have to decide if they buy it.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Who'd'a thought.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Who'da thought.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)If not, then YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't KNOW that Zimmerman was "stalking." You don't KNOW that Trayvon pushed. And you don't KNOW what may or may not ave happened that prompted Zimmerman to shoot.
You can keep PRETENDING that you know, but you won't ever KNOW.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)You: "merely speaking to someone is not an assault".
Me eople being stalked have no right to do anything physical until it happens to them?
You: "So you believe in pre-emptive strikes?"
Me: You stalk me. I push you. You shoot me.
See. Not talking just about Zimmy. I "won't ever KNOW" what happened?
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)I'm not sure what you were speaking about. If I misunderstood you, I apologize.
And no, we won't know exactly what happened. We'll know what some witnesses heard and saw--mostly after the fact. We'll hear what Zimmerman's version was. And we'll know what the jury eventually decides. But we won't KNOW exactly who did what to whom and why.
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)As any CCW class will teach you.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)What if he was waving his gun around from the start?
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)The jury is going to decide what happened and what culpability Zimmerman bears.
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)As can be following someone and confronting someone. Checking state statutes, or taking a good self defense or CCW class will prove that.
Assault generally means a threat of violence or an intent of violence, as inferred by the victim. If you are following me and I turn and tell you to stop, and you disregard me and continue to aggressive pursue me, I have a legal right to protect myself.
Also, under Florida's SYG Law, Trayvon was standing his ground even IF he turned and attacked Zimmerman when Zimmerman was following him and telling him to stop.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)precisely how does an individual's opinion, which carries zero legal weight and zero legal consequence, apply to the legal definition of the guilt or innocence of the person indicted of which, the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" directly implies?
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)rather than thinking we can peer into their hearts--not knowing even a fraction of the facts--and judge that a person hunted another down like an animal.
But feel free to cast the first stone, if you like. Or, in this case, the 31,298,863rd stone.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I don't believe that voicing an honest and sincere opinion is casting stone; however I do realize the melodramatic impact "casting a stone" give an otherwise useless sentiment.
I also don't think that open discussions, weighing available bits of information and evidence is the same as "peering into their hearts". But again, I realize the dramatic effect you may need to put words into the mouth of other people (which seems almost, if not as egregious, as "peering into their hearts..." . As a matter of fact, they seem like two wholly separate concepts, conflated only to better validate your own opinions.
MADem
(135,425 posts)must do.
You stick to your own knitting. Tossing around opinions is not casting the first stone. Your hyperbolic overly dramatic efforts to shut down any conversation on this topic, repeatedly, is NOTED.
Here's a suggestion for you--if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Use the HIDE THREAD feature that Skinner has provided so that you won't have to be poutraged by any suggestion that a man with a gun and a history of violent conduct killed a kid with candy and a drink, walking home from the store.
Stone casting, my ass.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Complete with NOTED in all caps, and the condescending use of "poutrage" and sticking to my knitting.
How cute.
Have fun slinging.
MADem
(135,425 posts)We can "opine" all the live long day, without consequences. We aren't constrained by any deliberative guidance from the bench.
BklnDem75
(2,918 posts)It holds no sway over normal thinking folks. We're not in a courtroom.
randome
(34,845 posts)That's why he stopped cooperating with his attorneys and has gone into hiding.
Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)He thinks he needs to persuade the prosecutor on charges against him. I don't believe he called Hannity, and I have doubts about a call to the prosecutor too.
BootinUp
(47,201 posts)he didn't need to kill that boy.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Zimmerman started the altercation by confronting Trayvon.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)I am also 100% certain that his commission of those crimes resulted the death of an innocent young man. I am also 100% certain that the victim was black and in an infamously racist town in a blatantly racist state and am therefore far from certain that anything resembling justice will be done in this case.
tallahasseedem
(6,716 posts)and would certainly like to hear his side of what happened.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)that resulted in the loss of life. Was that wrong illegal and can he be prosecuted for it? Wait and see. It would appear that Mr. Zimmerman already knows what he did ant the consequences of his actions.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)He should be arrested and charged with manslaughter; let the trial determine his guilt or innocence before a jury based on a presentation of the evidence.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They are always 100% certain. The more certain they can sound, the truer something is. That makes it easy to know what is going on. No need to investigate and figure anything complicated out. Freepers hate anything left up in the air.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)There are many people who are 100% certain of what happened that night between Zimmerman and Martin.
Mysfyt
(50 posts)if the man can't get a fair trial by a jury of his peers because he was already tried by the media and
the main stream media sheeple. not saying he is guilty but wouldnt it be really shitty if a guilty man
got off because of it.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)That isn't in dispute at all. What we really don't know is why he did it and whether it was justified. The known evidence suggests that it was not. I'd like to hear everything but right now it seems he is at least guilty of manslaughter.
Kaleva
(36,360 posts)I don't think he's guilty of 1st degree murder and with the grand jury not involved, he's not going to be charged with that crime.
11 Bravo
(23,928 posts)and charged.
ecstatic
(32,748 posts)"These assholes...they always get away."
Z decided not to let "that one" get away. Trayvon cried for help, was probably told to STFU, and Z shot him in cold blood when he didn't. Lock him up and throw away the key!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Then he's almost assuredly guilty. They're wrong about everything.
janx
(24,128 posts)A few of them are using logic instead of knee-jerk reactions based on race and/or the 2nd amendment.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)And I'm certain he should have been arrested for it based on what the witnesses have said. I'm certain he should be charged and have his day in court.
I'm certain I could sit on a jury and render a fair verdict based on the evidence presented. I would have voted not guilty for OJ and I'm white.
ctaylors6
(693 posts)I think the publicity of the case was very helpful in raising awareness of the case so that an independent prosecutor would be attached to the case, whether state or federal. The media served a crucial role in that respect.
Having been involved in criminal cases, I think it's impossible or near impossible for the facts to be presented publicly in a way that's complete.
I hope that the evidence is presented in its entirety to a court with a fair jury and a zealous prosecutor. I hope that Zimmerman has a good attorney.
If all of that is done, I hope the final outcome is accepted by all concerned.
Edited to add: I don't feel like I could possibly have a fully informed opinion at this point.
BeHereNow
(17,162 posts)Do any of us know what happened?
No.
We have several facts about what happened prior to the death and after the death,
but as to the actual seconds in which it happened, we don't know anything really.
We may never really know exactly what occurred but one thing is
certain, there is a VERY good chance that Zimmerman will be found guilty
of murder, whether second degree or manslaughter.
I've wondered if a lie detector test would reveal anything more-
What I want to see is further investigation of the Sanford police and their
actions on that tragic night.
BH
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)That alone makes me suspicious.
got root
(425 posts)even if they found a weapon on Trayvon, he didn't instigate the confrontation, Zim did.
Trayvon, the VICTIM, wasn't doing anything wrong, his killer needs to pay for his mistake, period
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I'm not positive he committed a crime. It's my very strong inclination to believe that he did...but I don't have all the evicence, and I am not sufficiently informed about the specifics of applicable Florida law. I'd be making a huge stretch to say "he's guilty of murder."
This is why we have investigations and trials...
applegrove
(118,843 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)The coroner's report, which will almost certainly indicate the bullet's trajectory and possibly the approximate distance the gun was fired from, is probably going to be the evidence that determines the jury's decision.
If the report indicates that the bullet entered/passed through Martin's body at close range (powder burns and/or forensic evidence consistent with a contact wound AND in manner which suggests Martin was on top of Zimmerman, then that and evidence of injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head and the jury will probably return a not guilty verdict.
The other important piece of evidence will be if the there are medical reports showing injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head. And CCTV video in poor light, does NOT prove that there was no injury.
The two biggest questions that will need to be answered during the trial are: Who initiated the physical confrontation and will a reasonable person, in this case the jury, believe that Zimmerman was in fear of grave bodily harm or death.
I will not make a judgment on this case based on media reporting and 30 second sound bytes by people more interested in getting good ratings then what may or may not have happened.
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)He is either guilty or innocent.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I guess, technically speaking, that is what I asked!
Taverner
(55,476 posts)However, the evidence we do have, is overwhelmingly convincing that it was murder one
vaberella
(24,634 posts)But Zimmerman's story keeps changing so the 'HOW' is hard to prove.
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)My guess is that Zimmerman is a over-zealous police wannabe who created a situation that got out of hand and another person ended up being killed. Until there is a trial, my previous statement is just speculation supported by my biases.
SlipperySlope
(2,751 posts)There are too many assertions being made that aren't backed with the actual evidence we have available at this time.
shimonitanegi
(114 posts)Hannity keep saying that there are at least two eyewitnesses that confirm Zimmerman's version of story, but there is another eyewitness says otherwise. All the prosecutor has to do is to prove that the screaming voice on the 911 call was Trayvon's. If she could convince a jury, then Zimmerman will be convicted, imho.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)75 percent sure the cops obstructed/tainted/suppressed the investigation, whether through indifference, incompetence or plain ol' racism...
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I don't know if there will be a conviction.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I am, for all practical purposes, certain he shot and killed an unarmed juvenile. As to my certainty re: his guilt or innocence of 2nd degree murder, I'd merely be entertaining conjecture.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)I know Zimmerman killed Treyvon and that Treyvon was unarmed. Was it manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or something else? I do not know. I won't speculate until all the evidence is presented in court.
On the one hand, the outrage enabled Zimmerman to be arrested and charged. This is a very good thing for justice in America. I'm glad people got angry.
On the other, such a political and media frenzy is surrounding this, that I'm going to hang back and see all the facts before thinking about guilt or innocence. That Duke incident proved that no how much we "know", no matter how certain we are of what is in someone's heart or their motives or even the facts of the case, we do not know anything until all the information involves sees the light of day.
It's good that we're talking about racial issues and Being Black in America. That is conversation that is never unworthy. But I cannot join anyone in "knowing" for certain everything there is to know about what happened.
Now that Zimmerman is in jail and awaiting trial, we need to wait for the full facts and ensure that justice is done for Treyvon.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)I am so sick and tired of people using the Duke Lacrosse case to point out instances of prosecution misconduct. You mention racial issues and Being Black in America yet the case you cite, the case that helped you come to understand the inequalities in the justice system, was a case of white men being railroaded on the word of a black stripper. As if judicial unfairness wasn't a common occurrence before then. You probably just became "aware" because the victims were clean cut white kids. It's getting to the point that it's insulting. Do you even know the history of injustices and the law in this country? Just Google the Innocence Project and see how many Black & Brown men were railroaded by the justice system way, way before the Duke players were even in diapers. SO you came to understanding because of the Duke lacrosse players. Well Bless your heart.
I hope Zimmerman gets a fair trial and is not judged unfairly. And believe me, that's a hell of a lot more compassion and objectivity than he gave Trayvon. But your post is a glaring example of why there is this disconnect between the races in this country. You argue for a fair trial abused upon your enlightenment of of the justice system because of the Duke lacrosse case.
And we Black folks see the wife of Sean Bell and the parents of Trayvon connect and mourn on a level that obviously you can't comprehend. And we see that the more things change, the more we achieve milestones like a Black President, the more things stay the same. Our kids are nothing but gutter trash who aren't even worthy of at least a half assed police investigation.
You want racial understanding? Do some homework about injustice outside of the Duke Lacrosse case and discover that it reaches deep into Black souls across a river that obviously you can't comprehend.
Bless your little compassionate heart
Prism
(5,815 posts)My reference to Duke has nothing to do with the inequalities in the system or prosecutorial misconduct. If anything, those Duke boys were only saved because of their racial and wealth privileges. Just about anyone else would've been railroaded straight to prison, and plenty of people are every single day in this country.
My reference has to do with how Americans judge guilt or innocence in high profile cases that are heavily politicized due to heavy media and pundit exposure. Looking at this case right now, there are a lot of "facts" floating around the media that people "know" about this case. I've done my own reading, and my impression is that some of these known facts may prove untrue or that they are based on instinct and speculation. Once a case is politicized to the extent that it becomes a kind of ideological Rorschach test, it's my preference to wait for evidence in court before forming a strong opinion about guilt or innocence.
Remember, the OP asked what we knew for certain, and I have no idea for certain. I have an impression, that it was at least manslaughter, but I don't know. And with a case throwing off as much heat as this one, the one thing I am certain of is that I'm not in a position to really know what happened that night and don't have enough evidence to judge.
My reference to Duke has to do with how the media and ideologues behave - not with how the judicial system treats people unfairly. It does, but the Duke students weren't poster boys for that. They had gross advantages your average wrongfully prosecuted individual does not.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The man with the gun was told by a police dispatcher to stay put and he didn't.
I can connect dots as well as the next person.
If Trayvon Martin had a gun and there was a gunfight at the OK Gated Community, there would quite possibly be a question in my mind as to the extent of culpability.
As it stands, I've never seen anyone overpower a person with a gun using candy and iced tea.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... but it is up to a jury to decide that. I will accept their verdict even knowing that juries are not always right.
ALL MOST OF US EVER WANTED WAS THAT THIS WAS HEARD BY A JURY AND NOT SUMMARILY DISMISSED BY A CORRUPT POLICE DEPARTMENT.
I wish some of you would get that through your thick heads.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts)... threads accusing DU of just wanting a summary execution.
It's mostly straw-man nonsense from people whose motivations are suspect IMHO.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)It annoys me when it happens to me, and when I accidentally do it to others.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)wearing a hoodie because he didn't like his looks. 100% it was unwarranted.
100% sure we will hear an even more bizarre explanation than the ten or so he has already told.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)I'd say 100%.
Sitting in a jury box, that would sink to zero and I'd start over.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)I presume everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)So, in pursuit of a black teen while brandishing a hand gun....in my book, that would seem to indicate guilty. Degree of guilt, oh about 100%.