Strike Debt! You are not a loan.

[Scuba]

http://strikedebt.org/

Strike Debt is a nationwide movement of debt resisters fighting for economic justice and democratic freedom.

Debt is a tie that binds the 99%. With stagnant wages, systemic unemployment, and public service cuts, we are forced to go into debt for the basic things in life — and thus surrender our futures to the banks. Debt is major source of profit and power for Wall Street that works to keep us isolated, ashamed, and afraid. Using direct action, research, education, and the arts, we are coming together to challenge this illegitimate system while imagining and creating alternatives. We want an economy in which our debts are to our friends, families, and communities — and not to the 1%.

http://strikedebt.org/principles/

Principles of Solidarity
Adopted by consensus of the Strike Debt NYC general meeting of January 6, 2013

Strike Debt is building a debt resistance movement. We believe that most individual debt is illegitimate and unjust. Most of us fall into debt because we are increasingly deprived of the means to acquire the basic necessities of life: education, health care, and housing. Because we are forced to go into debt simply in order to live, we think it is right and moral to resist it. We also oppose debt because it is an instrument of exploitation and political domination. Debt is used to discipline us, deepen existing inequalities, and reinforce gendered, racial,and other social hierarchies. Every Strike Debt action is designed to weaken the institutions that seek to divide us and benefit from our division. As an alternative to this predatory system, Strike Debt advocates a just and sustainable economy, based on common goods, mutual aid, and public affluence.

Strike Debt is an offshoot of the Occupy movement. It respects many of the principles that were adopted by Occupy participants from other non-hierarchical movements. These include: political autonomy; direct democracy; direct action; a culture of solidarity, creative openness, and commitment to anti-oppressive conduct and language. We struggle for a world without ableism, homophobia, racism, sexism, transphobia, and all forms of oppression.

Strike Debt holds that we are all debtors, whether or not we have personal loan agreements. Through the manipulation of sovereign and municipal debt, the costs of speculator-driven crises are passed on to all of us. Though different kinds of debt can affect the same household, they are all interconnected, and so all household debtors have a common interest in resisting.

Strike Debt engages in public education about the debt-system to counteract the self-serving myth that finance is too complicated for laypersons to understand. In particular, it urges direct action as a way of stopping the damage caused by the creditor class and their enablers among elected government officials. Direct action empowers those who participate in challenging the debt-system. Strike Debt holds that we owe the financial institutions nothing, whereas, to our communities, families, and friends we owe everything. In pursuing a long-term strategy for national organizing around this principle, we pledge international solidarity with the growing global movement against debt and austerity.

You can read the "Debt Resisters’ Operations Manual" online or buy a copy by clicking the pic ...

[badtoworse]

1. "We want an economy in which our debts are to our friends, families, and communities

...— and not to the 1%". That's easy - get them to pay off your loans.

This is such a crock that I hardly know where to start. On the one hand, Strikedebt accepts that it's OK to borrow, if necessary to procure the necessities of life and in the next breath, they say there is no need to pay back the loan because they consider it illegitimate. There is a term for that - it's called stealing.

[Scuba]

6. "... they say there is no need to pay back the loan ..." Can't find that part, can you point it out?

[badtoworse]

7. "Strike Debt holds that we owe the financial institutions nothing"

"We believe that most individual debt is illegitimate and unjust." from their web page.

[Scuba]

8. Yeah, but where's the part about not paying back existing loans that you mentioned?

[badtoworse]

10. If you held that a debt was illegitimate and that you owed the lender nothing,...

...would you pay them anything? I don't think any reasonable person would. I'll concede that another interpretation could be that you would only be paying it back because of legal requirements that force you to. The distinction isn't really important because in either case, their position is bullshit. Nowhere in website did I find any mention of personal responsibility for borrowing the money.

People get into debt for all kinds of reasons but they hold that most individual debt is unjust. So you drive off in a new car that you borrowed money to purchase and it's unjust that you have to pay it back? Ditto for a house, going to college or maxing out your credit cards. What kind of shit is that? If you think having to repay a loan is unjust, the answer is simple - don't borrow money.

[morningfog]

12. You gloss over the life necessities part.

Which I would argue includes education and other living expenses. Depending on where you live, it may include a car.

Borrowing just to meet life's necessities should not bind a person from upward mobility for the rest of their lives.

[badtoworse]

13. So you borrow money not expecting to have to pay it back?

[morningfog]

14. You borrow money out of necessity.

And predatory lenders are happy to get you on their hook.

When people are in these situations, the future is not part of the equation.

[badtoworse]

15. You didn't address the pay it back part.

[morningfog]

25. I did, you ignored it.

That isn't part of the question when people are in need and the only place they can turn for assistance is a loan.

Those who can pay it back can and do. Those who can't, largely because they are so saddled by debt, should be relieved.

I take it you've never been in such a situation. Count yourself fortunate.

[badtoworse]

39. I guess I missed that, but let's be clear.

I have no problem with what you posted provided the person borrowing the money did so in good faith intending to repay the loan. As for being relieved if you can't pay, we already have that protection - it's called bankruptcy and I have no problem with that either if it's a person's only option. This is status quo, and it appears to be insufficient for Strike Debt or they wouldn't be taking the positions they are.

If they want to buy bad debt and forgive it, that's great. I might even contribute for that. If they want to counsel people about not getting into debt, managing debt and staying out of debt, that's excellent - we need that. My sense, however, is that they are looking for a "Get Out of Jail Free" card of some sort where the lender just gets stuck and the borrower just walks away. Let's call it mandated debt forgiveness. If that's the case, I'm not OK with it. The ability to borrow money at reasonable rates is built on the premise that the lender rights to be repaid are backed by strong legal protections. Take those away and loans will get very expensive and become unavailable to many otherwise credit worthy people.

[morningfog]

47. Meh. Fuck the lender.

[badtoworse]

49. What an erudite response. Pretty much what I was expecting

[morningfog]

51. Forgive me if I don't lose sleep over big bank's losses due to their

own lending practices.

[taught_me_patience]

50. Pretty much sums up your point in the argument

lame and pathetic.

[morningfog]

52. I'm crushed.

[joeglow3]

72. Wow

That was a well thought out post and this is your post?


Says a lot.......about you.

[morningfog]

73. I'm devastated.

[joeglow3]

74. Keep saying that

Speaks volumes more...

[morningfog]

83. You're sorely mistaken if you think joeglow's opinion

if what I post matters an iota. It does not. Sadly, what it says about you is you prefer to post personal attacks on posters rather than discuss issues.

[joeglow3]

88. Stating facts is not a personal attack

Someone posted a well thought out post and you reply with snarky crap. A fact is a fact.

[Scuba]

16. But still, you're making shit up to suit yourself. The article does NOT state what you said it did.

There's nothing in the article that says people shouldn't pay back what they've borrowed, you made that up.

[badtoworse]

17. So how do you interpret "we owe the financial institutions nothing"?

[Scuba]

18. Still looking for the "... they say there is no need to pay back the loan ...".

You're free to interpret the article any way you please, but you're not free to just make shit up.

[sabrina 1]

20. Strike Debt, which came out of OWS btw, DOES pay off the debt. What they do is

what Wall St has been doing, they buy up student debt themselves, for very little, then rather than do what Debt Corporations do and go after the people who owe the money, charging huge rates of interest etc, they charge them nothing, freeing them from debt rather than PROFITING from it. Iow, once they buy it, they can either profit from it, or forgive it. Strike Debt forgives it.

[badtoworse]

22. That's fine if they do that.

I still don't see how that squares with "most individual debt is illegitimate" and "we owe the financial institutions nothing".

[sabrina 1]

24. I believe they are talking about the practice of Financial Corporations buying up debt

and then multiplying it from what it was, enslaving people for a lifetime, this is particularly true of student debt.

Google student debt to see what has happened over the past couple of decades. It is nothing short of usury. Strike Debt is doing this to highlight what should be criminal, forcing people into debt for the rest of their lives if they choose to go to college.

Student loans should be for sale to Profiteers, unless you believe in Predatory Capitalism of course.

[badtoworse]

21. Whatever, but their positions are still laughable.

[Generic Other]

40. They've managed to wipe out 5 million in debts

I suppose the ones who were helped don't find them laughable.

[badtoworse]

45. See Post 39. I'm fine with them doing that.

It's the "we owe the financial institutions nothing" and the "all individual debt is illegitimate" parts that I find troubling (and laughable).

[Generic Other]

57. After causing near economic collapse and being bailed out by the government

...maybe the banks owe the American people more than we owe them. I lost a huge hunk of money from my 401K. Why should I be the only one to feel pain? Banks have done nothing to help me replace what their greed caused to disappear. Give me my money back. And then we can talk about what is owed to whom.

This is my personal feeling. And yes, the banks do not give a flying fig. They always want what they believe they are owed first. They want to make a killing. They never think about the long-term.

That's why the country is all vacant and boarded up.

[badtoworse]

61. It's the banks fault is an easy cop out for everything that's gone wrong since 2008.

They do own some of the blame, but the situation was and is a lot more complicated than that in my opinion.

I'm really sorry you got hurt with your 401k, but haven't you made any of it back?

[Generic Other]

63. It still puts you behind and means postponing retirement

So these jerks get theirs when they take ours no matter what.

Now you come asking me to be morally indignant when some people tell the banks to F* off. I just don't have it in me. Sorry.

[sendero]

79. If the..

... repeal of Glass-Stegall never happened and the passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act never happened, 2008 would have never happened. Sure, now that it did it exposes many other weaknesses in the economy, but that is another story.

So, I guess I would just say I DISAGREE WITH YOU, COMPLETELY.

[badtoworse]

80. So how do you connect that to jobs being offshored?

IMO, that's a huge part of our economic problems. I see the job loss problem as unrelated to the banks. The weakness of the recovery and the lack of decent jobs are driven by that, not the banks.

[Live and Learn]

75. Because you are okay with usury. We get it.

Some of us aren't.

[badtoworse]

78. Do you even know what usury is?

[yeoman6987]

2. Funniest article I have read in a long time

[smirkymonkey]

3. Try being indebted to Sallie Mae.

There is no way out. We are screwed for life. I will never pay this off as long as I live. I pay the maximum amount I can pay on an income contingent plan and the interest just keeps compounding. I pay a huge portion of my income and it barely makes a drop in the bucket - the balance just keeps piling up. It's out of control. I might as well off myself. I will never be able to retire. If I lose my job I am screwed.

[delta17]

4. That sucks.

I think people in your situation should get some reasonable relief. OTOH, this article is getting into fairy tale territory. Simply not paying debt because you don't want to is crazy and will just hurt good people who want to buy a home, etc.

[sabrina 1]

23. Strike Debt does not say you don't have to pay off debt. They buy up debt as Corps do,

but instead of going after the students adding more interest, they forgive the debt. The Govt could do the same thing.

It is no fairy tale. Surprised people here are not familiar with them. They are an off-shoot of OWS and have doing this for a while now. It was done mainly to demonstrate the draconian nature of student debt and how it can be dealt with. And it has been a huge success.

[delta17]

28. OK, sounds like they are putting their money where their mouth is.

If they can help people in need I support that.

[smirkymonkey]

69. Thanks Sabrina!

I will look in to it. I am pretty desperate. I am not looking to be relieved completely of my obligations, but the compounding interest is out of control and I would like some relief from that.

[sabrina 1]

71. Sorry about that, smirkymonkey. There is a link in the OP which explains how Strike Debt operates.

They started this more to show what could be done, but it is still going. I'm not sure if they can help you but it's worth a shot. Good luck and hope you find a way to get some relief.

[smirkymonkey]

91. Thanks sabrina 1!

I appreciate your support! It gets me down sometimes, but I am dealing and hoping that Elizabeth Warren will help us out!

[Live and Learn]

76. +1 nt

[smirkymonkey]

68. Thanks delta17!

I have never been in default and I am making a good faith effort to pay, but it is growing faster than I can keep up on my income. I have finally found a lawyer who works on a flat fee who will try to find a payment plan for me that will not relieve me of my payment obligations, but may allow me to get my loan forgiven in my retirement years after a certain period of repayment. That is the best I can do, but for now I am struggling.

[Laelth]

87. Sallie Mae is vile beyond belief. Their practices should be illegal. n/t

-Laelth

[Fla_Democrat]

5. I wanna buy a copy, but I'm a little short on funds...

Think they will send me a copy.... on credit?

[taught_me_patience]

9. Complete utter kakabull

Not all debt is bad debt. Suppose you could borrow $1MM at 5% interest and invest it for a 10% return. Wouldn't it be wise to do it? The notion that all debt is illegitimate... completely insane.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. The Very Concept of Leverage, Right?

Businesses borrow money for capital improvement all the time. The criteria most have for decided which projects to pursue is the return on invested capital. If they're going to make 22% for 5 years they're wiser to borrow the money than to either sell stock or divest their own external investments.

That way they make 22% at 4% interest and still make 8% on external return. Net 26% which nearly any business would find attractive.

That meets your defintion of "good debt" i think.

[sabrina 1]

30. Got any idea where a student might be able to get a deal like that? I KNOW that some of the wives

of the bailed out Wall St criminals managed to accomplish it, with some our bail out money, which we did not agree to btw, but Strike Debt is not about those lucky, obscenely wealthy one percenters.

Strike Debt is about the draconian Student Loan system whereby, unlike the scenario you envisioned, ordinary Americans who would like to get an education are, under the current system, put in place by the very people who CAN get one of this million dollar loans you spoke of, forced into LIFELONG debt.

Strike Debt, during OWS, which was a movement to bring attention to these horrendous disparities, came up with a way to show how student debt could be dealt with.

They buy up millions of dollars worth of student debt for pennies on the dollar and then, unlike Wall St Corporate Predators, they do not try to extract even more from the student, they forgive the loan.

It is intended to demonstrate who this can be handled as it is a huge problem and growing.

Iow, it blows apart the notion that debt should be viewed only as a commodity to be profited from for the rest of the student's life.

Still want to know where to get a multi-million dollar loan at a 5% interest rate.

[taught_me_patience]

43. The million dollar loan example was used as an illustration

to suggest that the total balance of the loan is unimportant if it is a productive loan and there is great power in leverage. But to specifically address your student loan debt issue:

1) Student loans are not LIFELONG. Repayment terms are typically 10-25 years.
2) Student loans are not draconian. Approximately 60% of students borrow to cover college costs. Of that, the average borrowed amount is approx 20-30k. Yet lifetime earnings 800k greater for the college grad:

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2014/may/is-college-worth-it-education-tuition-wages/

Conclusion

Although there are stories of people who skipped college and achieved financial success, for most Americans the path to higher future earnings involves a four-year college degree. We show that the value of a college degree remains high, and the average college graduate can recover the costs of attending in less than 20 years. Once the investment is paid for, it continues to pay dividends through the rest of the worker’s life, leaving college graduates with substantially higher lifetime earnings than their peers with a high school degree. These findings suggest that redoubling the efforts to make college more accessible would be time and money well spent.

Again, the point of my response is that not all debt is bad. If fact, debt can be used by the majority of Americans to increase their financial well being.

[sabrina 1]

56. 'Can recover the cost of education in 20 years'. Wow! We have people now in their late fifties and

sixties who are still paying of their college loans.

Let me ask you this, if an investor who borrowed the million with 5% interest declares bankruptcy can s/he wipe out that loan?

Education is not a commodity for 'investors' to profit from. In a civilized society education is among the rights of the people, see the Public School System, unless of course you prefer the privatization of PS which we know the far right does.

What you proposing is that young people who wish to further their education should be viewed as commodities for predatory capitalists to profit from.

I am a liberal and could not disagree more with you, if that is the case.

A nations greatest asset is its children, assuming it is an evolved society. Not because they can be profited FROM, but because they can help to create a great society where people are viewed as human beings, not as commodities. What a horrible society to live in. Where all you are is fodder for some selfish, wealthy investors.

[Generic Other]

44. Every student saved should be working with them

by donating forward to grow the pot of money. And we should all be doing it. It is how some Asian communities help their friends and families through banking associations. The idea of buying debt for the same cut rate price as vulture capitalists is a wonderful one IMO.

[sabrina 1]

54. I agree, thanks for reminding me, I don't remember if they have a way for an automatic

monthly payment but I will definitely check.

It is a fantastic idea, to buy debt they way there are doing. Maybe our government might think of helping out that way.

Good to know the people in Asian communities are also working to help their friends and families. Sometimes you can feel as if there is no decency left in this society, then you see things like this and it is an inspiration not to give up on people.

Thanks for your comment.

[Laelth]

11. k&r for exposure.

We need a jubilee, but I seriously doubt that the global network of oligarchs would allow such a thing in this day and age.

-Laelth

[BKH70041]

19. I can tell you what would happen in a jubilee; oligarchs or not.

Let's use the Biblical example, which I believe jubilee was every 50 years. For the sake of discussion, let's lower that to 7 years.

If I know in 7 years that all debt will be forgiven, then I'm not going to loan money for a term longer than 7 years. With 3 years left until jubilee, the loan term will 3 years. I'll always make sure the final payment is due well before jubilee can have any effect.

If someone decides to default as jubilee approaches in order to obtain the product/service for less than what they fully owe, there would be some network put in place that would inform others that BKH70041 defaulted last time and is not to be trusted this time.

Put laws into place that prevent this and watch lending dry up. Make the government the lender and watch people who are honest and pay in full over the term express their anger towards those who didn't, and especially some average Jane/Joe who intentionally took advantage of the situation or received some special treatment not afforded to others.

I fail to see how a jubilee would do anything put make the burden of borrowing and repayment more difficult.

As to the OP, I have my own version of a "debt resistance movement." I never borrow more than I can afford to repay. In that way I have resisted debt for well over 30 years. I highly recommend others do the same. It uncomplicates life tremendously.

[closeupready]

34. Oh, how pride goeth before the fall, lol.

You are so sure you know everything, and yet you are so obviously wrong, on a lot of levels.

[BKH70041]

42. Then if jubille were to ever happen, you try it.

You might qualify for a 30 yr fixed for $300K. But if jubilee happens in 5 yrs, then you get a 5 yr term. Good luck!

[Laelth]

62. You have been very fortunate.

Almost all the rest of us have had to borrow money at one time or another. If you have a house note or a car note, you have borrowed money to buy something that you could not afford at the time you received the house or car. If you have been able to avoid borrowing money for a house or a car, you are more fortunate than (probably) 95% of Americans. Bully for you. You're rich. That doesn't help the rest of us.

As for your "scheduled" jubilee, I agree entirely with your analysis. What you describe is exactly what banks and lenders would do if a jubilee were scheduled, and that would be disastrous for our economy. We must have continued lending. I agree with that.

No, in order to be truly effective, a jubilee must be unscheduled, i.e. out of the blue--catching lenders by surprise. Even so, I admitted in my previous post that my hope for a jubilee was a pipe dream. I'm not expecting one, so it's almost pointless to discuss what might happen if we had one.

That said, I thank you for your response.

-Laelth

[WillowTree]

70. Sweeping generalizations should be avoided.

"If you have a house note or a car note, you have borrowed money to buy something that you could not afford at the time you received the house or car."

Sometimes. Sometimes not.

I bought a new car in April of 2013. Would have paid cash for it, all of it (in excess of my trade-in, of course) but for the fact that they were offering a 0.9% interest rate and a $1500 rebate for taking financing. So I financed $5000. If I took the whole three years to pay it off, the total interest charges would have been less than $75. Don't need a calculator to do the math on that one. And it's paid off, by the way.

But the loan was definitely not taken out for the reason you state. And, if they had been using 0% financing, I'd have borrowed twice as much and paid it off much more slowly 'cause, as Dear Old Dad loved to say, whenever they offer to let you use their money for free, take 'em up on it.

(Also works well to use credit cards for just about everything as long as you have the self discipline not to buy more than you actually could pay cash for and then make sure to pay them off just before the due date. "Using their money for free.......". Very good modus operandi for those who can do it.)

[Laelth]

86. OK, so you're rich too. Bully for you.

That still doesn't help the rest of us.

-Laelth

[WillowTree]

89. Ah.......generalizations AND assumptions.

I'm far from "rich". My last new car was purchased in 2001. Paid cash for that one out of a small inheritance. And then I SAVED a little every month for TWELVE YEARS toward my next car, whenever and whatever that might be.

And I didn't buy a BMW or Lexus, I bought a Hyundai. A small one.

Part of the reason why I was able to save over time is that I came out of my divorce with half of the relatively small amount we got for selling our little townhouse and purchased a condominium that needed quite a bit of work (most of which I did myself over a period of two years) in a seriously undervalued complex when real estate was cheap to begin with, so my mortgage payments, even when added to the monthly association fees, are considerably less than most livable rentals in this area.

I'll grant that I have a decent job, but not one that would impress almost anyone. Nor would my salary. But I know I'm darned lucky to have it.

So no. I'm not rich. I've worked, two jobs sometimes, and lived frugally and saved. And the fact that as a result I'm not poor doesn't make me worthy of your scorn.

And it doesn't change the fact that people sometimes have other reasons for borrowing money than to make it possible to purchase things they couldn't afford to pay cash for.

[randys1]

26. The 1% and Wall Street have conditioned us well.

Practically every thought we have in terms of finance has been planted by incredibly productive and successful propaganda for about 100 yrs, pretty much since the Great Depression.

Some reasonable conditions existed before Reagan began an all out war on the middle class and poor, but even they were not as good as they could have been.

But since Reagan we have an entire nation of people who are worked to death so the one percent can live like gods.

We must erase all that we think is true about pretty much everything in this area.

For instance, go with me for a second, how much sense does it make to allow one family, the same family to own Yellowstone National Park?

Extrapolate out just a little, rightwingers take control of everything, parks system dismantled and property sold off, Walton family buys the parks and for profits them and owns them FOREVER, till the end of time no person can go to the park without paying them.

This is an exaggerated situation to MAKE A POINT...and it is NOT that FAR or big of an exaggeration.

And the idea that by lowering taxes on the rich and corps will trickle down to us, dear god people, look around.

[closeupready]

29. Yes. You see that conditioning in most of the responses here,

upthread.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Can I borrow $500?

I'm good for it. Swearsies!

[closeupready]

38. How old are you? Do you have a credit history? Do you own or rent?

How much do you make every year? Do you have a full-time or part-time job?

Yet, the cynical here talk as if they had never seen or even heard of credit history. Maybe it's not cynicism, but youth/inexperience?

Kids, jubilee or no jubilee, you ain't gonna get a loan if your credit history sucks.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. Credit history?!? Pffft! That's sooo corporatist.

[NCTraveler]

55. Almost like they want the same exact info a bank wants to justify loans.

Probably want that 5% too. Hard to believe, I know. lol

[morningfog]

53. Mindless followers of big banks.

[randys1]

58. It is why I said it, and you can bet most who have problems with striking are people that didnt

have it terribly rough at any point.

Sure, some make it from nothing and with little help and then want to tell everyone else to fuck off, but most who have any decency at all know that what were once meant to be impermanent jobs are now careers, like working at Micky D's, this is what happens when we outsource all our manufacturing jobs.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. I'd pay $5 to go to Yellowstone regardless of who owned it, the government or a private owner.

I would NOT pay $50 to go to Yellowstone regardless of who owned it, the government or a private owner.

My propensity to do anything is pretty much predicated on my sense of its value to me.

[leftstreet]

33. There's no reason for an 'entrance fee' to a NATIONAL park

I think that's the whole point of the article

Working class people fare better when more things are nationalized than not

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. Really? Are you absolutely sure about that?

[leftstreet]

37. Yes n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. Golly. Cuz I remember not being able to take my SIL to any national parks

during the budget showdown-government shutdown because a bunch of self-interested, squabbling politicians were having partisan turf wars at the expense of the people.

So we went to a for-profit, privately-owned ice cream parlor instead because they had a personal interest in remaining open.

[Tsiyu]

92. Well, since you were inconvenienced by the Teabaggers' Bullying

and shutting down government, I suppose we should bulldoze all the national parks and sell the land for strip malls with ice cream parlors in every one.

Who needs national parks anyway?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

59. Bulverism.

[leftstreet]

36. DURec

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. In this system, education is a commodity like any other.

If the ROI of the investment makes borrowing the money profitable, then do it. If it does not, then don't - or at least acknowledge that the money spent is a lifestyle purchase, not an investment.

Poor critical financial thinking skill is not the definition of illegitimate debt.

Don't borrow unless:
a) an opportunity for arbitrage makes it profitable
b) there is no "b". "A" pretty much covers it.

The belief that young adults are powerless in the face of the irresistible force of college salesmen guidance counselors is nonsense. If you know going in that you're unlikely to make more as a college educated barista than you do now as a HS educated barista, college is not for you.

[Laelth]

64. Most people hope that their children will make more money than a barista.

Now what?



-Laelth

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Deal with the world as it is, not how you hope it is.

I hope my kids go through life without six-figure debt.

[Laelth]

66. I hear that.

But it's easy to understand why people want their children to go to college. There are worse crimes than hoping your children will succeed.

-Laelth

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. If college defines success then; "Yay! you're a success!"... So, pay the man.

I mean, if you go into it knowing that it's not an investment, then you weren't fooled - you're not anyone's victim and the debt is legit.

In that case, you're living your own choices.

[NuttyFluffers]

77. K&R

me gusta.

[sendero]

81. Other than abortion or the death penalty...

.... there is no subject that engenders such passionate and often frankly ridiculous responses as the subject of debt.

This thread is certainly no exception.

Without going all the way back to questioning our basic fractional reserve banking system itself, our system of debt, interest and bankruptcy served us well as a country for a very long time. Now, not so much.

There are many reasons for that. And of the people who have gotten themselves into trouble with debt, some are victims and some are victims of their own actions. If you bought a new car or tv or vacation and you cannot pay for it, I have very little sympathy for you. You are probably living beyond your means because none of those expenditures was necessary.

If you slid into tens of thousands of student loan debt and are having trouble paying it back I do have sympathy for you, because before the laws were all tilted towards the banks you would at least have the option of bankruptcy protection, something billionaire assholes like Donald Trump have availed themselves of several times.

If you, in a desperate situation resorted to a payday loan and are now on a payday load treadmill, I'm in the middle. Taking a payday loan is about like mainlining heroin it its stupidity, but then the usurious rates these outfits charge are a crime in an of itself.

This is an EXTREMELY complicated issue and there is no one answer. While I find some of the rhetoric of Strike Debt to be over the top, I support what they are trying to do.

[nilesobek]

82. My response to this thread might be off too.

I have the worst credit in the world. No one would ever commit identity theft upon me because of that. Only an insane person would loan me money, but it seems that there are no shortage of payday loan outfits willing to do it.

When I was homeless I was racking and double stacking payday loan lenders to the tune of 8 or 10 at a time. Then, when it got really bad I just blew them off.

I do support this effort in the way it was presented by another poster upthread. Buying up the debt cheap then just cancelling it. I call upon a general amnesty of student loans and payday, credit card loans. Our politicians did trillions of forgiveness for the bankers, now the general populace needs relief.

[badtoworse]

84. I generally agree with you, but I have a question about student loan debt.

If bankruptcy protection were available, do you think the interest rates and availability of loans would be different? The risk profile would be very different from the banks' perspectve. I'm thnking that banks would be reluctant to lend except to people with significant resources and lots of students would be shut out.

[sendero]

85. Probably..

.. but? All bankruptcy protections are basically a form of unpaid insurance, someone is always picking up the tab somewhere.

[smirkymonkey]

90. Unfortunately, you are a loan to some lenders.

And some of them will never let you go. Such as SallieMae.