PBS: Are Americans a Stingy Lot of People?

[daredtowork]

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/americans-stingy-lot-people/

I would throw a lot of other factors in here: people lead financially stressed lives even when we aren't in a recession (caught between student loans, supporting their own children, and then taking care of parents - it seems like we encouraged the nuclear family lifestyle without laying the proper infrastructure for it). Also, in a diverse and highly competitive society, people become less trusting, which makes them less generous. People are busy while the political and social systems are very fragmented: when money gets used in inefficient, wasteful ways, people get suspicious and don't want to throw their money "in a hole" anymore.

The problem is that the welfare system has been steadily gutted since the 1980s. Since no one really cares about people on welfare, there is no political will to change things: a lot of the policies around welfare have devolved into a tangled heap of nonsense at the local level. (Click my sig if you want to see an epic example). People often would prefer to continue to make up stories about "welfare queens" to justify their own inaction rather than even attempt to learn more about the current state of affairs.

Because people on welfare can be in a situation where are not only given no direct cash for necessities, attempting to earn it or take it as a gift will undermine their other benefits (such as food stamps or medical care) or housing, unfortunately charity - completely inadequate, fragmented charity- has been stepping into the breach and trying to keep people going where the nation has been content to drive masses of people into homelessness and let them die in a ditch.

Churches have actually been the most consistent in doing this charity work. Hearing Bush say "faith-based" anything used to make me wretch. But now I recognize that's all that's left. It's not adequate. It doesn't provide people with regular food and housing. But it's necessary because society is failing to address the current problems with welfare policy, and someone has to be there with a soup ladle because of that.

We've left society in a state where private individuals need to step up with voluntary charity. Yet this poll shows they don't. Either it's not in our culture or it's not in the terms of life we're setting down - in any case, it's not happening.

So what now?

[littlemissmartypants]

1. First let me say that I reject dystopia.

From the perspective of this piece, it appears we should all either jump ship or wait for the earth to open up and swallow us all. Although it is a fact, that the last rat on a sinking ship will cannibalize itself, we forget the strength of the human spirit is biologically predetermined and we're not extinct.

That said, two percent of nothing, is still nothing. When you can't make a living wage, can't afford transportation, much less the fuel and skip meals yourself to feed your children- the fact one stays alive enough, in one's own heart, to maintain the struggle is laudable.

We don't have a lack of monetary charity but a lack of charity of spirit, of empathy and a woefully shrinking supply of the milk of human kindness.

I suggest, we put a measurable value on those and do the research again.

Thanks for your post.

~ Lmsp

[daredtowork]

14. Americans Need to Look at the Problem First

I'm convinced that Americans would fix at least some of this problem on a policy/infrastructure basis if they would just be willing to look at and learn about the problems that are currently going on. It seems to me there is almost a refusal to look at, which is causing real people to tumble into the growing abyss.

Once people look, the political will may follow. But there will be no political will if no one looks.

I don't think people lack charity of spirit, but relying on that has always led to fragmentation and random, inequitable efforts. If allowing a horrific situation to go on repels charity by prompting people to look away, wouldn't laying a more stable foundation for public services make people feel "more comfortable", and thus allow them to look and open up their hearts a bit more? In other words, wouldn't a better infrastructure actually make Americans more charitable?

I also agree it starts with putting some sort of value on the innate value of human beings again instead of always focusing on their utilitarian value, which vanishes the minute they are unemployed.

[sakabatou]

2. I almost read this as "Are Americans Stingray People?"

[littlemissmartypants]

4. Lol, that would be in the science group. nt

[kentauros]

5. Or the car aficionado's group:

[littlemissmartypants]

6. Awesome.

Hop in baby, let's go!

[kentauros]

7. That one or the Lancia Nardi Blue Ray II.

I knew a car-restorer (an "artist" in all actuality) that had that Lancia car and restored it to pristine condition. He didn't drive it, though. It was worth too much for that, as is the case with all one-of-a-kind concept cars.

Now, enough of this thread-jack

[Mojorabbit]

33. Let me get my purse. I want to go too! nt

[littlemissmartypants]

34. Sure!

I'm all for it.

[Live and Learn]

3. The welfare system has been gutted?

Only if you mean from the amount of money that actually makes its way to the poor. Welfare Reform didn't reduce the amount of money spent on helping these people, just the amount of money they got.

As soon as Welfare Reform was put in to place, administrative costs shot up. In addition, the amount of money now paid to private contractors to administer services (services that are basically useless in today's marketplace, i.e., teach the person how to do a resume, how to interview, how to dress, etc.) expanded dramatically.

In other words. we pay more in tax dollars but those in need get less.

[daredtowork]

15. We Pay More, Those in Need Get Less

Last night I read the most jaw-dropping statement about the Governor's campaign debate in California: the current Governor Jerry Brown had spent "too much money on Public Assistance programs". What the heck????!!!! It certainly didn't go into helping people on welfare obtain basic necessities like toilet paper, toothpaste, and tampons. So, I too, would like to know where all this Public Assistance "overspending" went.

There is probably some truth to your comment.

I don't know the details of it or the politics of it. Just who is getting these large paychecks? Why isn't this small army of bureaucrats that are supposedly soaking up the money helping people like me? If we're spending so much on extra bureaucrat? I don't understand.

I would love to talk to Jerry Brown about it. But he does not offer a toll free number. And the email form on his web site often errors out. And his team does not respond to complaints the email form errors out. I have never gotten a response from Jerry Brown's office, the entire time he has been in office.

While people accuse Jerry Brown of being too "lefty", he doesn't seem to do much for people who are really on the bottom layer. I won't even mention the name of the guy who is running against him, though. He's like some sly Romney reboot.

[xmas74]

41. I've always thought that there should be a voucher system for those on food stamps

to be able to obtain assistance for hygiene items also. Toilet paper, tampons/napkins, soap, shampoo, toothpaste/denture cleaner and basic items like diapers/adult diapers, peroxide, bandaids, etc. Even a hair brush/comb might be included every so often, along with toothbrushes every three months. The cost isn't all that much but would save some households quite a bit.

[daredtowork]

48. In theory this sounds good, but

I bet all the items needed wouldn't be covered. It would turn into just another horrible bureaucracy with vendors over-charging the government, and the shelves empty half the time.

People on welfare feel also feel a considerable squeeze from government services now because aid is usually on a short timeline ("you only get support for x months...&quot while it takes forever to get appointments and for vouchers to turn around. But, worse, when I see what vendors have charged for something, I'm just amazed! I know the State charged $500 for my eye exam (part of being qualified for services) because I was accidentally billed for it. WTH! I could have been paying rent with that money.

From outside the system, you want to implement something like this to keep poor people from "wasting" discretionary funds. But the real drain on taxpayer money comes from this refusal to allow the poor to make their own choices: then the money doesn't go to help the poor - it gets sucked into bureaucracy, waste, and possibly fraud and corruption.

The most efficient way to handle the problem is to simply give people money for necessities or an easy job that "pays" them enough for necessities, while leaving them able to apply for a real job. My housemate suggested mandating that people on welfare attend PAID work training/classes. Showing up keeps them work ready and socialized, and as long as they keep showing up, they have bus money to come the next day. I thought this was a nifty idea: and the "rate" paid should reflect minimum wage so people wouldn't feel like welfare slaves. In a way this would become extended "unemployment insurance": except the rate would change from a fraction of your previous wages to minimum wage, and you would be required to show up at this class to get it.

[xmas74]

49. When I received food stamps I worked full time

and still didn't make enough to get by. There were plenty of times I didn't have enough for tampons and would make do with whatever I could fashion. I used cloth diapers at home but for daycare my kid was required to have disposable. And some of the other expenses are sometimes more than can be afforded.

What about more like a WIC voucher? I had WIC for a time with my child and I had vouchers. Yes, sometimes supplies run short but it's better than nothing.

[daredtowork]

53. How do WIC vouchers work?

People with children have many more programs/resources available to them than single people.

(And the public asks why poor single women continue to have children out of wedlock...)

Even though I'm disabled and waiting for SSI (or was waiting for SSI before the Affordable Care Act started giving me access to specialist care - now my situation is more ambiguous) - I'm only eligible for a very small voucher toward my rent and food stamps. No direct cash welfare for necessities, no subsidies for anything else (like bus passes).

Thus I have to do a lot of creative stuff with the food stamps. Baking soda, lemon juice, and various oils are my best friends. I collect napkins everywhere I go.

While Californians were being noble in banning plastic bags from grocery stores, I really needed these. :-/

[xmas74]

55. They have to be approved via appointment every couple of months.

The mother goes in with the child (up to age five) and the WIC office does a height/weight. They then do a quick nutrition consult with the mother about the child's needs. After that they print up the vouchers, which are good for two months. Each voucher is assessed by what the child (or pregnant/nursing mother) needs and has a date of when they can be redeemed, along with an expiration date.


The average voucher has a certain amount of gallons of milk. Some also include a couple of boxes of generic cereal, along with dried beans/peanut butter,fresh or frozen carrots, tuna fish and eggs. It says the exact amount, up to a dollar amount, that can be redeemed. The stores often have stickers in front of the products for what is WIC approved, for ease of shopping.

It works quite well and is probably even more efficient than the food stamp program, though I have no qualms with food stamps.

[daredtowork]

59. Ugh another appointment

I do have issues with creating yet more appointments, which imply the unfunded mandate of bus travel as well.

Also, doesn't such cards display to people in your neighborhood that you're a recipient of welfare?

I don't think this would work well for non-food necessities because they can't necessarily all be acquired from one store. For instance: postage, copies, print-outs don't come from the same place as where you do your laundry or where you get your bus tickets or where you get your tooth paste.

[xmas74]

61. They are so common around here most don't blink an eye

since it's available only to those with children under the age of five. I knew of a teacher around here who was on WIC so it's not uncommon. It's also a very common site with the military wives.

The appointments are more about checking on the progress of the child and making necessary changes to their diet. Example: child is losing weight or vomiting after consuming dairy. This might be signs of an allergy and the mother is then encouraged to make a doctor's appointment. If a doctor's appointment were to show that dairy was the cause the vouchers could be changed to goat's milk, soy milk or almond milk. Same with formula.

[daredtowork]

63. The child is all that counts

Still waiting for Americans to arrive at the philosophical conclusion that individual human beings have innate value. Once we've allowed people to be born into or otherwise join our society there is a shared responsibility to include them in our environmental niche.

[merrily]

65. Clinton declared that he had "ended welfare as we know it," or words to that effect.

Cuts and "reform" began in the 1960s, though. And, again, the system was never perfect.

[daredtowork]

69. Yes the "Progressives" Started Dismantling Welfare

But what did they build in its place? Nothing! They just left people to sink or swim, and they sank!

What was Clinton thinking? People would fall back on their families? I guess that's happening in the sense more adult children are staying at home rather than taking the risks of going out in the world. They know there is no safety net left.

There was just a Governor campaign debate in California, and the myth of the "welfare queen" was dredged up yet again! They "young turk" challenger accused the current Democratic governor of spending too much money on "Public Assistance". Yet, as you can see from my posts (and my sig), an almost meaningless amount of that "public assistance" money is going to the people who desperately need it. I didn't see the debate, but I bet the Governor "defended" himself by denying he spent all that much on public assistance instead of proposing novel ways to help people lift themselves out of poverty. It's clear he does not see our situation at all.

Dear Governor of the State of California -

Please take a walk down to the County of Alameda Social Services (that's Oakland) and go through the process yourself. Try to find shelter. Figure out how to get different necessities. Figure out how to get places without subsidized transportation. Live like someone on welfare for a few weeks, and then go back to your podium and start debating about "public assistance".

[Live and Learn]

72. +1 Although, I don't think that Clinton was a "Progressive" as I define it. nt

[LuvNewcastle]

8. Our culture doesn't put much value on empathy.

Most people in my own family have a stunning lack of empathy for those in need. I would say that is my most serious problem with my family members, including those in my immediate family. When I think about it, I believe that is the root of our disagreements, especially regarding politics and religion. They aren't especially greedy people; I'd say their attitudes are rather typical here in the South. And from conversations I've had with people from other regions of the U.S., I don't think people in the South are all that different from people in the Midwest, the East Coast, or anywhere else.

Empathy is a much-undervalued quality in our society. I've known people who thought that it was actually a character flaw. So many people don't like being confronted with others who are dealing with financial difficulties or other unfortunate circumstances. They would rather think of ways to blame the person for his plight instead of thinking of ways that they can help. That is a twisted, perverse way of dealing with a person in need, but it's a very common reaction in America.

Unfortunately, I'd say that most Americans have to fall on hard times themselves before they're able to envision themselves in another man's shoes. That's probably the reason I can see myself as a homeless person or in any number of awful situations. I've never been financially secure. If I had been, would I be like the rest of my family -- a judgmental, self-absorbed little snot? There's a good chance I would have been.

But getting back to the subject, I think that a society that doesn't value empathy, that has an every man for himself attitude toward others, isn't a worthy society. I look at the refugees coming from Central America and the country's reaction to their needs, and I see a country with a sick soul. Will Americans have to hit rock bottom and be in positions of dire need before they're able to feel a kinship with the rest of mankind? I wonder. I like to think that we can change our destiny and make a better world and be able to share it.

[marions ghost]

11. So true

"a country with a sick soul"

[Populist_Prole]

16. Yeah. I had to think and think about it; but yeah

Some in my family, many of my peers and coworkers are that way. When I try to make sense of it all, I have to agree it really does come down to lack of empathy toward those they do not know personally. I say this because they make all manner of exceptions for their disdain for those who befell misfortune if they know them personally. Everybody else, can go straight to hell. It somehow escapes them that seeing so many "exceptions" does not make them look inward and sense that perhaps their compasses are inaccurate.

[daredtowork]

28. Scarcity

A few months ago this book about scarcity got attention for the implications about racism:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/books/2013/10/09/book-review-scarcity-why-having-too-little-means-much-eldar-shafir-and-sendhil-mullainathan/iiIdalMtPBSo1AKW339iII/story.html

EDIT: Not sure it was in that book, but it's in this article - http://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2014/06/09/as-economy-declines-african-americans-appear-blacker-nyu-study-shows.html

But in general, I think it means people will circle the wagons ever closer as their perception or scarcity grows. Think of what that means in a "competitive" society - especially when there are ideologically-driven elements of that society which attempt to socially engineer a heightened sense of competition by inducing scarcity (the flip side would be "demand&quot . There's a whole lot of mass psychology manipulation going on all the time in American society.

By the way, in come of the other comments I mentioned some of my hometown Church Ladies. They regard me as an "exception" to the "welfare trash"...just as you describe.

[Populist_Prole]

29. Oh yes, the "circle the wagons" mentality is in full tilt among that crowd

"Us vs them", tribalism; we can call it what we will. It is a result of their distorted reality, and the reason that as they are becoming more demographically irrelevant; they're getting meaner and more shrill.

In their eyes, "this simply can't be happening" because they're realizing it cold turkey at an advanced age. The more enlightened progressive among us have come to know it sooner, and more slowly over a longer period. Not only that, it's not a matter of us accepting an unpleasant change: It's just the normal march of time and life going on. We're good with it.

[daredtowork]

32. Solveable problems start to look unsolveable

Even though we can always "find the money" when we "need" to do something, once scarcity mentality sets in we always "don't have the money" to address poverty issues (...the Congressman said as he blew the foam off his $5 latte, collected his latest Tobacco company check, and signed the bill for the latest trillion dollar Pentagon widget...).

When people start to feel pressured, they build bunkers instead of trying to solve problems. Everything is just "too hard".

[daredtowork]

17. Americans are judgmental as well as charitable

We tend to be charitable in the abstract sense, especially because we value it as an aspect of character. No matter how we feel about the military, we all admire "no man left behind". That's why Americans will come out for a Big Cause like the Ice Bucket Challenge or to help people in an area devastated by a hurricane. But when it comes to individuals, the inner "Judge Judy" comes out.

You would think the South would be more charitable because there are still areas of strong religious saturation. But when I was growing up, Church Ladies could be extremely judgmental of the poor! They would gossip about drifters who would come through the area and try to refer them to other churches. These women were wives of the wealthy businessmen in the area. If one of the drifters had asked them for a job and attempted to settle down in the area, do you think they would have obliged? It's easier to judge than to help effect change.

[Orsino]

9. A caste of hereditary aristos trying to take everything we have leaves us a bit rattled...

...and ready to turn on one another.

[daredtowork]

18. And it will work

Unless the people who see it keep exposing their tactics.

[marions ghost]

10. I recently visited

a small town in America of about 7,000 people where someone told me that a local church feeds 160 kids a week, or they would not have enough food. Every week. With doggie bags for the weekend so they can make it through to Monday. The parents cannot make enough to buy food or pay bills. Often there is divorce in the picture. I'm not a Church-goer but that does seem like a noble thing to do. But what does it say about our society where 1 in 5 kids is poor and often hungry?

[daredtowork]

19. churches are doing noble things

In some small towns the churches are banding together - including Catholic with Protestant - to try to step in where the American welfare system has failed. I don't want to dis their work at all.

It's not nearly enough. They don't provide regular shelter. They don't provide a regular supply of basic necessities. They frown on people coming back week after week. Worst of all, they don't really help people get out of their situation. And in small towns, people really feel the judgment from their neighbors.

The church cannot replace a real public services infrastructure to address poverty.

[marions ghost]

21. I am agreeing with you

It's a failure of society if so many people must depend on churches, which can't possibly do enough.

If one in five children are going seriously hungry, the system as a whole is a failure.

[daredtowork]

24. Yes, just adding on

The interaction of the church and the welfare system is not well-understood at all.

Before I was actually on welfare, it made me so angry every time I heard "faith-based initiative". I felt that this violated the Constitution and taxpayer money shouldn't be diverted to the Church. I felt poor people shouldn't be indirectly inducted into any faith through "gratitude" for charity. I knew, from personal experience, that Church Ladies, were about as judgmental and gossipy as it gets! I didn't think the dignity of human beings down on their luck should be in their hands.

Now that I am on welfare, my views have changed a bit. When you get zero in direct cash and have no other resources, suddenly it becomes a bit more acceptable that some form of charity - even if it's religious charity - is there to give you a baggy with toothpaste and a toothbrush or to give you a hot meal or to provide a place to do your laundry or to give you a pair of shoes.

I still believe people shouldn't have to desperately turn to church charity. But in the end, even I have.

(St. Vincent de Paul, Oakland, is doing a lot that a public social services center should be doing, btw).

[marions ghost]

27. Yep

with ya

[Bluenorthwest]

47. I get your point, but you should really learn the facts about funding before you credit those who

get the grants while condemning those who give them. Much of the money spent by religious organizations doing social work comes from the government. 62% of Catholic Charities funding comes from local, State and Federal government agencies. The same is true for Protestant organizations. And of course it is not true of all of them. My local St Vincent de Paul outfit does great things with money they generate by doing great things.
For many of the most vulnerable, forcing them to go to those who openly hate them to get aid that is actually paid for by the taxpayer is not the best thing. When they hand out those baggies they bought with a tax funded grant, they do not give credit to the taxpayers, but instead they take that credit for themselves and their faith group. To me this indicates that their actions are motivated by something more than simple service to others. They do 'good' on other people's money and loudly take the credit for themselves. They take their cut, even if it is just in taking credit for giving that which was given by others.

[daredtowork]

51. No one wants there to be a working SECULAR pulblic services infrastructure more badly than I do

But the fact remains that there isn't one.

The government is GETTING AWAY with withholding services from the desperately poor.

Our political representatives are GETTING AWAY with lying about people on welfare and welfare policy on a regular basis.

It's horrible that the Church is all that's there picking up the pieces - and it's possible that certain ideological forces have schemed for things to turn out just that way. But that's what we've got there.

If the Government funded the Church to give me a baggy instead of using the money to develop a proper social service infrastructure, then it's just illustrative of the general problem stated in the PBS article in the post above.

[philosslayer]

81. And they should be taxed

n/t

[Prophet 451]

12. Americans are f'ing INSANE about taxes and welfare

They seem to regard every penny spent on welfare as a dollar stolen personally from them. Conservatives in both our countries seem to exist in Dickensian worlds where poverty is always due to the moral faults of the poor, such as not having the "habit of work" (said by our outright evil Secretory of Work and Pensions), view being unemployed as a "sin" (him again). And the media, being generally rightist (both in my country and yours) repeat this demonizing wholecloth and, here, even buy into it with tv shows like Saints & Scroungers (here, the term "benefit scrounger" is roughly equivelent to "welfare queen&quot that present benefit fraud as widespread when in reality, it's so rare that it costs more to root it out than allow it to continue and tell outright lies that it's possible to live better on welfare than working.

I'm disabled, for reasons of both physical and mental health. And, like most people in this situation, am very much aware that the public has been trained to regard me as lower than a child molester.

[J_J_]

13. You are where I want my tax dollars spent

I don't want any of my tax dollars to go to war, it is against my religion.

[daredtowork]

25. +1 nt

[Prophet 451]

30. I heartily respect that

and thank you for your consideration.

[daredtowork]

22. The dollar stolen out of their pocket

Another DU post (perhaps right-wing astroturf, though - I can't remember) posited that the secret GOP theme is they shouldn't have to pay for government services that they don't personally use (whether or not they might use them in the future - or they have ancestors or relatives who have used them, etc.). Anyway, they figure if they get rich now, they will be able to pay for whatever they need when they need it, and to heck with whoever can't.

In short, they do not believe in sharing costs to create an "ecosystem" for the community. They cannot even see the potential of a dollar used to lift someone out of poverty as someone who might one day contribute as a valued employee to their company...because in their mindset they probably see anyone lifted out of poverty as another competitor in the human rat race: they might be enabling their own future boss! Oh no!

I think that's the root of the problem.

There needs to be an emphasis on fairness from childhood up, and that fairness has to include secure food, housing, and basic necessities.

[Prophet 451]

31. I agree with your final thought

Both our countries (which share a culture to a large degree) try to teach children about sharing but by the time they are teenagers, that's been replaced with "grab all you can, give nothing back". I'm very much in favour of a guaranteed minimum income, (much) higher minimum wage (I'm thinking somewhere in the region of $22) and much higher taxation on teh rich (including a million dollar surtax whenever one writes a self-pitying column for the newspapers). Bastards should feel scared and lucky we don't bring back teh guillotine. It was a headline over here that benefits had risen faster than wages and presented as proof that benefits are too luxurious when in reality, it doesn't mean that benefits are too high, it means wages are far too low.

I am sick of being labelled, targeted, abused and demonized by teh PtB. As I'm unable to change my disability, I wish to change teh message.

[hughee99]

35. This is probably why blue states give so much more to charity than red ones...

oh wait, the exact opposite is true. Never mind, forget I mentioned it...

God damn conservatives!!!

[U4ikLefty]

37. Take religious giving out of the picture & who gives more?

[hughee99]

38. I'm not sure who would give more, but

I have no idea why religious giving wouldn't count.

[Lex]

42. It's not real charity because it's mostly used to further their own

religious agenda and build bigger churches and so it's just mostly self-serving. And because they think they "have to" tithe to get into heaven. Not true charitable giving.

[hughee99]

43. Ah, I had no idea that religous charites didn't actually help people.

It's strange because there's a religious charity near me (though not my religion) that runs a bunch of food pantries and soup kitchens. It's disturbing to think that they don't actually feed anyone. Please tell me more about why it doesn't count.

[Lex]

44. Reading comprehension isn't your thing I guess.

No where did I say none of their money goes to help anyone.

Nice try though.

[hughee99]

45. Ah so you're suggesting that SOME of the money goes to help people

and some doesn't. I guess this is opposed to non-religious charities where all the money goes to help people then, and that's why religious donations don't count?

[Lex]

46. I said what I said in my initial post

exactly how I intended to say it.

[hughee99]

50. Well, your initial post does a poor job of explaining

Why religious donations shouldn't count but other donations should. If you don't want to expand upon a weak, or at least poorly made, argument, that's your decision. Enjoy your day.

[daredtowork]

62. Please check out some of the other posts

Religious donations may feel good, but the results are fragmented and uneven as far as actually helping the poor are concerned. So in the end these donations actually help the givers the most: you feel good about giving and perhaps are the recipients of gratitude. But if you actually cared about the fate of the poor, you would investigate better ways to help them.

When people are out of resources, what they need most is to be able to stabilize their lives. They need a stable place to live - a way to pay rent and bills. They need a way to get food and necessities. They need to feel settled and take a breath. Then, from this settled place, they can start a training/education or proceed, with the help of the Department of Rehabilitation or other Job Development agency if necessary, to get a job. This is the way to lift people out of poverty.

However, this what we are doing instead: dropping people in poverty into a place of absolute panic. Leaving them scrambling to find a place to live and trying to get basic resources. Barraging them with appointments that they have to get to without a subsidy for bus passes - probably while they are mobility impaired. Getting no help for entrenched debilitating medical problems because you're too poor to be referred to specialists or get the medications you need. If you didn't have mental problems why you started this process, you soon will. While you are constantly in survival mode, you can't think about moving forward.

How is this "solving" the problem?

[Lex]

66. You seem to be the only one

who doesn't understand. It's that reading comprehension thing I suppose.

[Prophet 451]

85. Where does that come into it?

I never mentioned charitable giving. What's more, charitable giving is a different thing. People are able to give to charity while still resenting paying taxes to uphold welfare because they feel that only the "right" people will be helped by charity.

[BlueJazz]

76. "public has been trained to regard me as lower than a child molester"

You're "Tops" with us on DU.

[Prophet 451]

86. Thank you, sir

[Trillo]

20. FYI, Faith-based initiative continues under Obama,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Office_of_Faith-Based_and_Neighborhood_Partnerships

President Barack Obama renamed the office [4] and appointed Joshua DuBois as its head. He also established an advisory council for the office. The Advisory Council is composed of religious and secular leaders and scholars from different backgrounds. Each member of the Council is appointed to a one-year term. The members of the Council [5] include:

Diane Baillargeon, President & CEO, Seedco, New York, NY
Anju Bhargava, Founder, Asian Indian Women of America, New Jersey
Bishop Charles E. Blake, Presiding Bishop, Church of God in Christ, Los Angeles, CA
Noel Castellanos, CEO, Christian Community Development Association, Chicago, IL
The Rev. Peg Chemberlin, President-Elect, National Council of Churches USA, Minneapolis, MN
Dr. Arturo Chavez, President & CEO, Mexican American Catholic College, San Antonio, TX
Fred Davie, Senior Adviser, Public/Private Ventures, New York, NY
Nathan Diament, Director of Public Policy, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, Washington, DC
Pastor Joel C. Hunter, Senior Pastor, Northland, a Church Distributed, Longwood, FL
Harry Knox, Director, Religion and Faith Program, Human Rights Campaign, Washington, DC
Bishop Vashti M. McKenzie, Presiding Bishop, 13th Episcopal District, African Methodist Episcopal Church, Knoxville, TN
Dalia Mogahed, Executive Director, Gallup Center for Muslim Studies, Washington, DC
Rev. Otis Moss Jr., Pastor emeritus, Olivet Institutional Baptist Church, Cleveland, OH
Dr. Frank S. Page, President emeritus, Southern Baptist Convention, Taylors, SC
Eboo S. Patel, Founder & Executive Director, Interfaith Youth Core, Chicago, IL
Anthony Picarello, General Counsel, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, DC
Nancy Ratzan, National President, National Council of Jewish Women, Miami, FL
Melissa Rogers, Director, Wake Forest University School of Divinity Center for Religion and Public Affairs, Winston-Salem, NC
Rabbi David N. Saperstein, Director & Counsel, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, Washington, DC
Dr. William J. Shaw, President, National Baptist Convention, USA, Philadelphia, PA
Father Larry J. Snyder, President, Catholic Charities USA, Alexandria, VA
Richard Stearns, President, World Vision, Bellevue, WA
Judith N. Vredenburgh, President and Chief Executive Officer, Big Brothers Big Sisters of America, Philadelphia, PA
Rev. Jim Wallis, President & Executive Director, Sojourners, Washington, DC
Dr. Sharon Watkins, General Minister and President, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Indianapolis, IN

According to ABC News, the office would seek "to expand the role of this office as it relates to policy issues where religious and local leaders can be effective. DuBois will coordinate with faith-based and community organizations on social service outreach and will work to utilize these organizations' efforts to advance the administration's policies, with a primary focus on poverty."[6]

[daredtowork]

23. Sheer Desperation

Americans need to wake up to the fact this is not providing what poor people really need: to be able to stabilize their housing, acquire food, basic necessities, and a means of transportation so they can orient themselves and pull themselves back up into the mainstream workforce.

[tridim]

26. ...And be sure to save a million or so for retirement.

Yea right.

My Dad has a cushy pension, his kids have nothing. Do the math.

[Fla_Democrat]

36. Let me guess, their pledge drive came up short?

[littlemissmartypants]

39. daredtowork, this is an interesting thread. nt

[daredtowork]

40. The attempts to sidetrack it are just as interesting

I wonder why?

On a related note I posted my welfare petition to a mailing list I was on for nonprofit professionals. I thought it would have some positive reception since many people get into the nonprofit world so their work will mean more than their paycheck. Many of them work for organizations that are supposed to advance social justice in some way. It was a hard step for me to take because this time I had to put my real name on it, but I had to do something since Social Services had now taken away Medi-Cal and my medical needs are fairly immediate. After I posted my petition there was general silence on the list for 12 hours, and then people went back to exchanging messages about conference call software. 2-3 signed my petition.

I used to be co-chair of the book club for that organization, and I did a lot of volunteering in the nonprofit community. Some of the active members know me personally (and have already signed my petition). You would think I'd earned my "It's a Wonderful Life" moment. But now that I'm on welfare, what I get is 12 hours of silence before people go back to their "professional" talk about conference call software.

That's exactly why I didn't want to put my name on it the first place. So humiliating.

[merrily]

52. It has to be a government effort or fraud will increase--and so will the number of needy

people who don't much help or get no help.


I am not saying the old welfare system was perfect. But everyone knew where to go for help if they had no alternative. There would be some degree of proving their need and some follow up services. Finding immediate living quarters, for openers. Knowing the living conditions of recipients, especially children. Making sure recipients knew everything that was available to them. Pressures on slumlords. Help finding jobs. So many things.

The notion that private people can come close to covering everyone in need while also minimizing abuse is a fairy tale. Yes, they have to try right now because there is nothing else. But the long term solution is to try hard to make government do its job again. Then private citizens can pick and choose to whom to give extra help. But needy people have to be housed, fed, clothed and given medical care at a the very least first.

[daredtowork]

56. Right now it's impossible to find information

When I initially ran out of resources, I expected to find information on everything I needed at the Social Services offices. I expected to talk to a case worker who would help me find resources. Instead, after standing in an immense line, and waiting for my number to be called for many hours, I got to apply for two, and only two, government programs that I qualified for: General Assistance (a small voucher toward my rent) and food stamps. No one volunteered any information.

It took me 6 months or longer to find crucial resources. Some things it took me longer to find. There are some things I may never have found at all. On top of the months it takes to find resources, I had to plug into the time-line of the resource providers, which often involved several-month waits. For instance it took me 4 months to discover the Department of Rehabilitation - an important source of resources for me. Then I had to wait a month for their intake session. Then I had to wait to go through their application process - all in all, it took about 6 months just to get started in the DoR.

Think about it: Social Services certifies you as being "disabled" for 12 months at a time, but the DoR takes 6 months to get you on board and 2 months at a time to do anything...

Well, anyway, the whole system is horribly fragmented and made of fail. I've been trying to draw attention to the fact that the way things work now, the system literally drives people into homelessness, and I would speculate it produces mental illness as well. I know the former for a fact (it's built into the structure of rules) - I think the latter can be derived.

[merrily]

57. The system was never perfect and it's been gutted, so it's worse.

But it is still better than expecting private people to do it.

Also, the intake operation is different. The job of an intake worker is to make sure people who seem to qualify get into the system. Remember, they are dealing with people who just got out of, for example, mental hospitals with no money, no food, no place to stay that night, etc How many hours you waited is a reflection of how much work they had to do that day.

Did you get assigned a case worker on an ongoing basis? Is that person mostly clerical? That is often the case and part of the gutting.

[daredtowork]

60. The case worker is a token notion

The case worker is ongoing but he just manages that paper work. He answers no questions and returns no calls. If there is any problems, all programs default to automatically shutting off. It's up to me to rapidly appeal - and I will only get the programs restored during the appeal process if I was lucky enough to be notified of the cut off in advance and ran to get it appealed. I'm extremely lucky both in where I live and being on the upper end of being competent enough to handle these problems. But the fact I'm drowning (see my sig - besides that my Medi-Cal has now been cut off) should underscore what happens to the average "intakes" that you describe.

Expecting "volunteerism" to step up and save this situation is ridiculous!

But the most frustrating part is no one knows this is happening. The media doesn't report it and our political representatives on both sides of the aisle constantly lie about it.

[merrily]

64. Not sure, but I believe law requires you to get advance notice before any

govt benefit ceases.

Obviously, I agree about volunteerism

[daredtowork]

67. Only in theory - My Medi-Cal Benefits Just Ceased Without Notice

I found out when I went in for a medical appt. on Sept. 2 (just a lucky coincidence I had an appt. at the start of the month) that my Medi-Cal benefits had been cut off. I had to get emergency indigent coverage for the clinic services, and I had to cancel another specialist appointment I had the same day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10407442

I am still scrambling to get this fixed. Because I received no advanced noticed, I can't get coverage while my appeal to Social Services is going on.

My prescriptions were cut off. I have to get them from the County hospital. I'm kind of tempted not to refill them and stand in front of Oakland city hall and see if I get a seizure or something.

My referrals are on hold. My other appointments this months have been cancelled except for my eye injections. These were supposed to be regular. I'm hoping the Medi-Cal problem gets fixed before the appointment. I'm also supposed to be taking a special eye antibiotic 3 days in advance.

One of the referrals was for a clinical trial, and the timing was very close for that: it relied on some imaging that was almost exactly a year old. I had jumped through a ton of hoops already for that clinical trial, and now it got snagged on this.

I just realized my CPAP machine is also paid for by Medi-Cal. No one has called to take it back yet. I'm wondering if I'm going to be billed for the time "it wasn't covered" by Medi-Cal though.

I had asked one of my specialist a medication question through an online system two weeks ago: it just occurred to me I didn't get an answer because I've been cut off from that system.

Social Services has often cut me off from services without warning. (Most recently food stamps - see my sig). But this sudden cut off from Medi-Cal is by far the worse because there is no "back up" for many of the services while I'm appealing it. I don't know how long it will take for it to be fixed.

No one at Social Services ever takes responsibility for anything. They don't get "dinged" for their errors. They put people at risk all the time - their actions may indeed cause homelessness or stress people to the point of mental illness, but no one calls them to account.

[merrily]

68. So sorry this is happening to you.

[daredtowork]

70. I feel like I'm missing some obvious way to fight back

I've filed the appeal through an advocacy place, phoned the supervisor of my caseworker, and gone down to Social Services to register the complaint with the Social Worker of the Day. Now all I can do is wait.

Also a lot of my time has been sucked up running to the advocacy place and the medical clinic with questions. I have to run to the medical clinic again on Monday to ask about the CPAP machine. The rest of the time I'm pacing around with worry.

A month ago I was in an unbelievably positive place because the Affordable Care Act had given me access to certain treatments, and I was actually in a position to track myself back into the mainstream working world instead of on to SSI. Now I've wasted over a month on these crappy things Social Services has been doing to me, and now I'm deprived of the medications as well. Is this how the system to work?

In view of the Medi-Cal situation, I wanted to get more signatures on my petition. If you really want to help me out, please ask people who care to sign: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/work-while-on-welfare?source=c.em&r_by=11132229

[merrily]

75. I don't see a way you are missing because I thought

you were supposed to get notice. I don't really know though.

While you were unable to work, did you apply for OASDI? That is basically a moot question, though, given you can apparently work now? But, if there is a next time....

You might try posting the link to your petition in an OP in General Discussion and Activism. You could also try the fund me website.

I hope this gets sorted out for you soon.

[daredtowork]

77. I have been in the SSI application process for over 2 years now

This is another thing that people don't understand about "welfare" and how it might be impacting your neighbors. If they become disabled and have to apply for SSI/SSDI, the application process can take many years - especially if they have a rare or complex condition and didn't have a lawyer up front. "Welfare" is what picks up the slack while those disabled people are waiting. The way welfare policy is written now, you have disabled people going without necessities, falling into homelessness, and being driven into mental illness simply because they have to wait a long time for SSI.

My wait may have been longer than usual because of the Affordable Care Act - perhaps there was some idea that this might make a difference in disability cases, as it did make a difference in mine. But meanwhile that leaves me on the hook for a couple of years of welfare, which is a LOAN where I live.

As for whether I can work, Social Services may have pulled the rug out from under that. My condition had improved in some major ways. However, it was uncertain how long the medication I'm on would work, and it has a lot of side effects - so I was being optimistic in starting to work. (Note that once I start to work, that proves I can work, which would take my off the SSI track after investing over 2 years in that application process, so it was a risky step to take.) But now with Social Services putting me under this immense amount of stress and messing with my medication, I'm having a lot more problems. And I can't see or talk to the specialists I would normally talk to about it.

In regard to my petition, I did post here about it in order to get it up to 50 sigs, and about 15 people were kind enough to sign and 42 people recced it. But what I don't understand is - over 2000 people viewed it and didn't sign or rec. What part of the State writing welfare policy to punish work didn't they understand? How could they not realize that it's policy like this that underlies a lot of the "engineered" poverty in the U.S.?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025420117

[merrily]

78. I asked about OASDI. SSI and OASDI are two different programs.

OASDI allows disabled people to do a certain amount of work per month but the amount that you can earn per month without losing benefits is low.

Also, if you qualify for OASDI, you automatically get the hospitalization part of Medicare.

[daredtowork]

82. All the Social Security applications are in the same bucket

I believe I've already been weeded out of everything except SSI because of lack of work credits and because it had already been too many years after I had last worked when I applied.

[merrily]

87. You apply to the Feds initially for OASDI and, depending on where you are,

to your state or your city for SSI.

I don't know what steps you followed, but I don't want people to mix them up.

If you have the necessary number of work quarters, you are eligible for OASDI disability. How long ago you earned those quarters is not the issue. Apparently, you did not have enough work quarters before you became disabled.

[daredtowork]

88. Yes, that's probably the case.

I spent my entire 20s in grad school, mostly on fellowship, and most of my 30s on-and-off temping and sinking into the sort of vortex you can only fall into when you have a genetic disorder and really need health insurance, but increasing ill health makes it less and less likely that you will get a stable job with medical benefits.

[merrily]

89. You don't have to explain. Disabled is disabled. You did not choose that.

I just don't want someone else to see this and give up.

[daredtowork]

90. Ooh, good opportunity!

I missed that you were getting some good info out there!

[merrily]

91. Someone else disabled might not be eligible for SSI and just give up on OASDI, thinking

Last edited Wed Sep 10, 2014, 09:35 AM - Edit history (1)

their quarters were too old. That was my worry. *

As to you individually, I just wish it were not happening to you, but I don't have any bright ideas.



*I have seen a lot of confusion around these two programs, both in real life and on boards. Example: On another leftist message board, a woman posted about Social Security and chained CPI. I agree with her, but, called it Old Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance. She scolded me for not keeping Social Security retirement benefits for seniors entirely separate from Old Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance. A little hard to do, given they are simply two names for the one and the same program. May as well scold me for not keeping President Obama entirely separate from President Barack Obama.

[tabbycat31]

80. I want to kick this for you

But if you want your petition to get more signatures, create a separate thread for it and if you're on social media, share the link (there's a lot of FB pages that you could share this on).

Good luck.

[daredtowork]

83. Thank you!

There is a separate thread for the petition:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025420117

I don't use Facebook, but please feel free to share the link there.

[L0oniX]

54. A sinking ship promotes every person for themselves.

[daredtowork]

58. Is the ship really sinking?

Or is the GOP continually fueling the impression of a sinking ship as a form of social engineering: so people will be "motivated" to behave in the economically focused ways that will "prove" their theories.

Taking away welfare (which they've essentially already done in secret by creating unlivable circumstances) is supposed to "motivate" people to work or drive them "away" somewhere.

The GOP complains about social engineering when progressives do anything with social infrastructure, but what they are doing is clearly social engineering as well.

[LuvNewcastle]

71. Thanks for posting here and educating

people about how the system works. I signed your petition and posted it on Twitter. I just started tweeting, so I don't have a lot of followers yet, but hopefully it will help. I wish you luck.

[daredtowork]

73. Thank you

I'm pretty pathetic at that myself since I don't use facebook or twitter at all. I have very mixed feelings about putting my name on anything since I would prefer to stay "off the grid" all together. But there are also very few "insiders" who can explain this situation. I think the main reason you haven't heard a ton about it already are that people are so terrified of the arbitrary elements of the system that they are afraid that if they say anything they will get cut off, or at least get entangled in months of bureaucracy while their sole source of food/rent his held up -sort of what's happened to me here. And that goes double for areas that where there is strong suspicion of bureaucratic corruption (again, Oakland...).

In a way the Affordable Care Act also created the option to expose these situations because the possibility of dealing with your disabilities via the health care system instead of just steadily becoming more and more disabled means that there is a path out of welfare, and thus there's more of an option to say, "Well, I can let people know what happened as I slam the door on my way out."

I would like to say that was my story, but as you can see from my sig, Social Services knee-capped me for even TRYING to work. And right now I'm so busy tearing my hear out over the Medi-Cal situation, it's hard to focus on anything else.

[daredtowork]

74. btw, I'm a girl. ;)

But since I never had children, I'm standing with the single guys when it comes to assessing the effectiveness of welfare policy. We should all have inherent dignity as human beings instead of being valued merely as producers of children and/or work.

[tabbycat31]

79. A few things here

First off I agree about the lack of empathy. I see this in some family members, and most of the MBA types I know (I wonder if it's taught in business school--- regard people as a number not a human being).

Second off--- Americans are generous to charity, but the 1% types tend to fund their own charities. The Koch Brothers are very generous with the arts and donate generously to places like opera houses (that have their place in this world but they don't help people in poverty) and it's treated (tax wise) the same as a donation to the foodbank. I doubt that David Koch has ever written a fat check to his local foodbank.

Churches do some charity work and I commend them for it (one of my Girl Scout troop projects as a kid was spending a Friday night making sandwiches for the homeless in a church basement). I've been in churches that have food pantries once a month (this particular one also had clothing for giveaway too). I'm not also discounting operating expenses because everyone has to keep the lights on. But for every church that has a food pantry, there's another that's using their donations for proselytizing (abroad via mission trips or domestically by passing out pamphlets, door knocking, etc) or doing something opulent like building a giant marble cross (I've driven by one--- that can't be cheap). So I'd like to see a chart of where church donations REALLY go (food pantries, proselytizing, or opulence).

Public policy wise, I think we need a complete overhaul in our tax system (I'd be in favor of scrapping the whole thing and starting from scratch) but we perhaps a donation to the foodbank should have greater tax benefits than a donation to the opera house. This is really coming across as insensitive to non people helping charities (I personally have donated to my local SPCA and donate old clothes to their thrift shop) but I'm just throwing food for thought out there.

[daredtowork]

84. I think that's a really neat idea

I agree that we should give greater tax incentive to helping people/addressing poverty than other forms of charity. That alone could give the whole issue a major "bump"!

One of the biggest problems now is people have no motive at all to help the poor except human kindness...and apparently that's just not enough. People can only get up the political justification to help kids or to justify stuff that's "work-related". Nothing is done just to help people. But if there's a tax benefit to doing it, maybe that could be a game changer!