George Zimmerman is PRESUMED innocent....

[mike_c]

I'm going to do something real unpopular around here today and remind everyone that, now that he has been charged and arrested, George Zimmerman is presumed innocent until proven guilty. He hasn't been convicted of 2nd degree murder yet-- I suspect he never will be, but rather will cop to a lesser charge eventually, but that's beside the point. This is where people who love their human rights start standing up for them. Even the most vilified deserve due process and a chance to confront their accuser in court.

Cheney threw people down the hole at Guantanamo without respecting their human rights, and that place is still a blight on the American conscience. Zimmerman will get his day in court, as will the people. Until then, everyone has an opinion, but none of them really matter. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. An indictment isn't a conviction.

Now I'm going to turn off my computer and go home. Flame away.

on edit: clarified the OP to include the PRESUMPTION rather than the fact of innocence, since no facts have been established in court.

[Poll_Blind]

1. +1

PB

[HipChick]

2. It's a shame that Trayvon Martin didn't have that choice of being innocent until proven guilty..

oh wait..that's right..he's dead...bullet in the back..unlike Zimmerman

[TheWraith]

7. There's no evidence he was shot in the back. nt

[emilyg]

11. Thought it as chest.

[Fawke Em]

29. I'm going to guess something...

He was shot in the chest, crab-style on the ground and screaming for his life. He rolled over after the shot.

I think there is surveillance cameras or eyewitnesses to this.

I realize to "up-charge" is a prosecutor's jelly, but there's a "smoking gun," we don't know about.

[tabatha]

56. Yes, I was guessing a surveillance camera

that nobody could have talked about.

[mr_liberal]

75. What I imagine is he

was shot while on top of Zimmerman. He was banging Zimmerman's head when Zimmerman pulled a gun and shot up into his chest. He then fell off and rolled onto his back on the grass.

I think it has been established that the screams were from Zimmerman but Im not positive about that.

I think the prosecutor has overcharged this case in an attempt to get a manslaughter conviction. She's hoping he will plead or the jury will feel he needs to get something after clearing him of 2nd Degree.

I doubt Zimmerman gets convicted of anything. It could be something minor though with a light year or two sentence.

[U4ikLefty]

79. Your imagination is wrong.

The screams wre NOT from Zimmerman.

Look it up.

[mr_liberal]

80. The eye witness said it was Zimmerman. nm

[TheWraith]

3. Points for saying something unpopular, although I don't regret expressing my own opinion on it. nt

[Pilotguy]

4. He is PRESUMED Innocent...

...that's different than saying he IS innocent.

[mike_c]

8. indeed, that is a worthy correction....

In fact, if you don't mind I'm going to edit the OP title to reflect that. Thank you.

[got root]

14. lol

thought you were turning off the putter

[mike_c]

26. yeah, I'm an addict....

Hi, I'm mike_c and I'm a DU-aholic. Seriously though, I'm still in my office, I'm pretty much done for the day, and I keep telling myself "Stop clicking on the Latest and go home, have dinner, say hi to the girl friend." Ah well.

[robinlynne]

31. too funny.

[robinlynne]

32. becuase I have all these things to do, but I keep clikcing on the latest too. wanting more.

[got root]

38. :)

yeah, i know that song, too.

[robinlynne]

58. Isn't it sad when you go to the greatest page after two or three hours and there are no new ops?

[ZombieHorde]

61. I'm a DU addict too. nt

[WingDinger]

20. CRIMINALLY presumed innocent. That does not apply to public opinion.

We can dislike, even hate his actions, and the aftermath. We can certainly use all the evidence, not only what the jury sees.

[Motown_Johnny]

83. +1

Presumed innocent under the law.

[cthulu2016]

15. There is an irony in the language...

Because of the presumption of innocence we can say that he is "Not Guilty" because "Guilty" is a legal determination. It does not exist until a jury makes the determination.

On the other hand, no jury makes a determination of "innocent"... that is not within their scope. Innocent is not a legal category.

So the presumption should probably be the "presumption of not guilty" but that is not as elegant sounding as "presumption of innocence."

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Agreed

Legal guilt is, of course, a different matter, and many, many racist posters who have defended Zimmerman these last few weeks have relied on this slight difference between legal guilt and a more general feeling of guilt to pry their racist trade.

[liberalmuse]

6. I think we can safely assume...

That DU won't be gathering a lynch mob. This is an intelligent community. In the end, DUers will come out on the right side of things. I just get so irritated with condescending posts like this that assumes liberals are knuckle draggers who have zero self-awareness. Honestly?!

[cindyperry2010]

9. The thing I had about all of it was

the parents to me just want their day in court and what had transpired until today made it seem they were not gonna get it. Tell me I am wrong I very likely am?

[got root]

10. this killer has already confessed

FYI

[elleng]

21. To shooting, yes, but

not to second degree murder. 'A prosecutor must show that the defendant acted according to a "depraved mind" without regard for human life. Florida state laws permit the prosecution of second degree murder when the killing lacked premeditation or planning, but the defendant acted with enmity toward the victim or the two had an ongoing interaction or relationship. Unlike first degree murder, second degree murder does not necessarily require proof of the defendant's intent to kill.'

http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/second-degree-murder/florida/

[got root]

37. to killing an innocent, and unarmed, kid, as well as instigating the confrontation

after being told not to.

so, after all we know, a good prosecutor shouldn't have too much trouble applying the letter of the law.

[JDPriestly]

65. It is a greater charge than I expected based on what I know.

We shall see how it goes.

[elleng]

12. Would be less flame bait if OP said 'GZ is innocent until proven guilty.'

We could not dispute that.

[cthulu2016]

16. Yes, it is intended to pre-outrage

So the expected hostile replies are... well, expected.

[mike_c]

19. I've edited the OP to reflect that....

It wasn't intended as flame bait, but rather a reality check. It really depresses me that even here, human rights are often not respected when they involve unpopular people or ideas. Every now and then we need to stop and remind ourselves, I think.

[elleng]

23. Yes, we often need to remind ourselves of that.

Thanks for editing.

[Oneka]

48. + 1000

Very well said.

[bigtree]

13. we're not a court or vice-presidents of the U.S.

. . . in my view he's guilty. That's how I'm going to regard him.

In the court's view, it's assumed he's innocent until proven guilty. That's likely how they will regard him, initially; not guaranteed, but likely.

[dkf]

62. I bet that's how a lot of potential jurors feel.

The case is irretrievably tainted. Yours words alone prove it.

[XanaDUer]

17. You are correct

He has the right to a fair trial. Which that young man did not get, but Mr. Z is still entitled. His new lawyer seems competent, as well.

[Justice wanted]

18. No you are right. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I will be honest though I at one

point believe justice will never be serve and I am worried that too much time has passed that justice can fully be serve BUT you are right Innocent until proven guilty.

[Iris]

22. I can only speak for myself but

I never said he was guilty of anything. The problem was a child died and it was written off as nothing. And that's just wrong. This should have been investigated immediately after it happened because that would have been the right thing to do.

[uppityperson]

24. Only PRESUMED innocent in a court of law. Since he said he shot/killed Trayvon, he is guilty of

that at least. But true, he is presumed innocent in a court of law.

[SteveABG]

25. Completely agreed

I'm just glad that a jury will finally get to hear the case to prove him guilty, rather than nobody ever hearing it.

[NYC_SKP]

27. Hell, I don't care. I hate the motherfucker just for being so dangerous.

The things he ADMITS to doing, donning the mantle of neighborhood watch person, more entitled than Trayvon, and willing to go out after him WITH A GUN.

Well, the stupidity there, never mind the likely bigotry, is enough to hate his guts.

Justice may or may not be served, and indeed he is presumed innocent by any court of law.

But that doesn't fix stupid.

And it doesn't fix bigoted.

[live love laugh]

28. Innocent or not the disparate treatment that has been shown cannot be overlooked or denied.

This is a move to placate and nothing more.

With big money backing Zimmerman he'll walk free in no time--unlike those from the same background as his victim.

[HooptieWagon]

30. By the court, yes.

However, as spectators we have no such obligation.

[NutmegYankee]

33. Presumed innocent by the legal system (courts), not by society.

[Yo_Mama]

34. More accurately the burden is on the prosecution

to prove he committed second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

And if they can't to a jury's satisfaction, he walks.

That's our system, and it's the right one even if it can be a painful one.

[Solomon]

35. LOL. So many people here upset with the charge.

Deal with it and quit trying to find slick ways to gripe about it. He's getting his trial, tho he will cop a plea.

[L0oniX]

36. Yea ...I tried this too and the hang em now mob piled on. Good luck.

[indepat]

39. By not having brought charges, George Zimmerman had been presumed not guilty of a crime

by officials on the very night of the homicide.

[zipplewrath]

40. Yes but..... ya know

Yes, technically you are right. And I'll admit that I'd hate to be on his jury. I haven't paid any attention to the hoopla on this case because my only complaint was that he wasn't "arrested" immediately. (If he had, he'd been out the next day on his own unless he had the most incompetent lawyer in the world. Ya gotta understand Florida). But based upon Florida's EXTREMELY lenient laws, only INCLUDING SYG, it is going to be tough case.

None the less, I suspect that he will have a tough time defending his case because of all of the recorded evidence. But I am also aware of the problems with our criminal court system. At the end of the day, the problem may be our court system, not necessarily our insensitivity to the racial bias in our communities.

[Cerridwen]

41. Sorry, mike. In your scenario, cheney, too is presumed innocent

until proven otherwise in a court of law.

shrub is also presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law.

So far as I am aware, neither of them has been charged by a recognized US court of law and neither of them has had to stand trial in a recognized US court of law.

I'd love it if they were. But by your metrics, they are each, presumed innocent.

Just for the record, DU is not, really it is not, a court of law.

eta: And I am presumed capable of typing...or not.

[madashelltoo]

42. PRESUMING HE'S INNOCENT, BUT . . .

That does not look like a recently broken nose. Just saying.

[pennylane100]

43. When you do turn on your computer, I hope you will read this.

It was never about whether he was innocent or guilty, it was that he almost got away without answering that very question. It is interesting that you suggest this is the time to stand up for human rights. Unfortunately, you are a day late and a dollar short. The time to have done that would have been when law enforcement was busy trying to bury the rights of the victim because the person who killed him had an influential family.

I am not sure why you need to remind us of the crimes of the Bush/Cheney administration. You are just quoting another example of how the law can be abused by those in power. That is the whole point of the outrage in this case.

[bluestateguy]

44. That is the courtroom legal standard

and I respect it. I would not have it any other way.

But as an individual who has the right to have an opinion, I also have the right to believe that he is guilty.

[nashville_brook]

46. +1

[soc7]

45. Three words "Duke Lacrosse Team"...

They were completely "convicted" on this site early on....

I agree. Let's get the facts.

[Honeycombe8]

51. Yes. I've thought about that case during the Trayvon public debacle.

Watching posts misstating facts, prejudging certain things. How soon we forget.

[got root]

52. apples and oranges - imho

we have a killer who has confessed to stalking, confronting, and then killing in cold blood, an innocent youth, on public property.

[barbtries]

47. if i was called to serve on the jury

i would take that presumption of innocence with me all the way into the jury room. but, i'm not. he's guilty as hell.

[bluedigger]

49. In a Court of Law.

Which this is not. It's pretty simple.

[Honeycombe8]

50. You are correct. I want for him what I'd want for everyone: presumption of innocence.

It's hard in a case like this. But so far, the legal system is working, once there was a public outcry.

[Bjorn Against]

53. No flames, but the presumption of innocence is for a court of law

I presume him guilty, but I have every right to do that because I am not going to be on his jury and I still support his right to a fair trial. I sure as hell don't think he is innocent though.

[DrewFlorida]

54. George Zimmerman didn't presume Trayvon Martin to be innocent until proven guilty.

George Zimmerman played police officer, judge, jury, and executioner. There was no presumption of innocence for Trayvon! The courts and jury must presume innocence in order to remain impartial, the public is not required to pretend innocence in the presence of overwhelming evidence. Not only should George Zimmerman be charged but the officers and chief of police of the Sanford police department should also be brought to justice for their attempts to coverup this travesty of justice. It's about time we have "Liberty and Justice for all" not just those with light skin tones.

[uppityperson]

55. Welcome to DU and good post.

[yardwork]

63. Welcome to DU!

[FailureToCommunicate]

68. Well said.

[bigwillq]

69. Hello

Welcome to DU!

[TBF]

85. The positive thing in this is the 2nd degree murder charge -

the prosecutor could've gone for the easier manslaughter charge. I am hopeful that this means she has evidence and a plan to present it. Welcome to DU.

[K Gardner]

57. This is only the umpteenth post about George's presumed innocence..

I'm glad he has a good lawyer. I'm glad he's in custody and is going to have his day in court, or in front of a judge or something.

But DU is NOT A COURTROOM. Sheesh.. chill people. Honest, we can't convict him, even if we wanted to.

Stop worrying.

[Quixote1818]

59. Maybe of murder but he clearly saw blacks as suspicious and his stupid fucking mistakes

lead to the death of an innocent child. HE FUCKED UP IN AN EPIC MANOR! Any logical person should be pissed off! Is he guilty of murder? Probably but the jury will have to decide that beyond a reasonable doubt and your point stands and I agree 100% with your point. It's a good point! However, I still don't have to like that fucking piece of shit! Fuck him!

[csziggy]

60. And all the Martin family and their supporters have been asking is for an ARREST

They never asked for a conviction, they just wanted a proper investigation and an arrest of the admitted killer of their son. The family and their supporters have been admirable in their insistence on peaceful protests and refusal to play into elements that could have escalated the tension into violence.

The problem with the current Stand Your Ground laws is that they presume the survivor of a fatal encounter is telling the truth and give law enforcement an excuse to accept them at their word and to avoid doing an in-depth investigation

The other aspect of the case is the willingness of George Zimmerman and the Sanford PD to accept the idea that Trayvon was suspicious, threatening, or dangerous simply because he was a young black male.

So we have racial profiling piled on top of a law that makes killing because of an imagined threat legal. It had to come to a head sometime, but it could have been much worse. Tracy Martin and Sabryna Fulton should be respected for their dignified, careful handling of their public appearances.

[JDPriestly]

64. I agree, mike_c

Zimmerman is entitled to a fair trial, to present his evidence and his defenses.

And a fair trial with evidence and a presentation of Zimmerman's defenses followed by a verdict will be a harrowing experience for Trayvon Martin's family -- but also a tremendous solace to them.

That is how our system of justice works.

Each side should present its case as persuasively as it can.

As the prosecutor stated, it is a matter of reviewing and considering every detail. Only when all the admissible evidence is presented can a jury decide what really happened. (We don't begin to know all the evidence yet.)

Of course, many will not agree with the jury verdict.

After all, it has to pretty much go one way or the other.

But we all have to agree to accept it (without giving up the right to appeal if appropriate). Everyone is, in the end, entitled to closure.

[enki23]

66. Way to flog that straw lynch mob.

I imagine they probably won't bust Zimmerman out of jail and string him up now. It was a near thing, hero. We are all fortunate that you rode in here on that big, heaving white horse to save our society from the scourge of unofficial opinion.

Zimmerman, as we are so eloquently and necessarily informed, is Schrödinger's murderer, neither guilty nor innocent until due process collapses the wavefunction. Till then, we are bound by obligation to truth, justice, the American Way and certain interpretations of quantum mechanics to withhold our petty, useless opinions. Because actual causality, not just legal responsibility, is determined by the authority of the courts.

[Aristus]

67. No flames from me, Mike.

Just a reminder that the presumption of innocence lies only with the jury. Anyone else is free to presume his guilt all they want. And I'm one of them. Trayvon Martin was unarmed. That means Zimmerman didn't even think to plant a gun on him...

[frazzled]

70. Well, thank goodness he will finally face a court off law

Where his presumed innocence can be tested by the evidence, until he is found guilty.

The main outrage of this case is that there was never a legal forum in which to test his guilt or innocence. A young boy (whose own innocence was never granted by the defendant) lies dead, and the person who admitted shooting him has been walking free for six weeks.

[Gore1FL]

71. He is presumed innocent, and you presume us guilty of not understanding that. hmmm n/t

[backscatter712]

72. The judge and jury at his trial have to give him a presumption of innocence. The rest of us don't.

Since I'm 2,000 miles away from the scene of the crime, I can talk out of my ass as much as I want.

[RufusTFirefly]

73. Amen. The saintly and the scum of the earth deserve the same protection under our Constitution. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

74. +1 to infinity. nt

[Iggo]

76. ...in a court of law.

[provis99]

77. and OJ was found not guilty of murder.

I still think the bastard did it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

78. I don't understand the distinction for us, those of us posting on a messge board

In other words, the courts are to presume that he is innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't stop someone here from assuming he's guilty and saying so. If he is acquitted, then it doesn't much matter what we say or think, he's walking free.

So I guess I'm asking, isn't it for the courts to consider him innocent until proven guilty, and by the same token, does it matter if we, or some of us, consider him guilty from the start? Again, an acquittal would change all of that.

thanks

[mzmolly]

81. That's right. But the fact is, he was presumed

JUSTIFIED, in committing cold blooded murder, prior to his arrest.

[Daniel537]

82. Presumed innocent in a court of law, the court of public opinion can think however it wants.

Its like the 1st amendment prevents the govt. from censoring your free speech, but you can still suffer consequences in the public arena for them.

[LanternWaste]

84. No one in this matter have lost any enumerated rights at all (except for Trayvon...)

As the presumption of guilt and innocent are, for all intents and purposes, two different animals when we contrast their use in a court of law versus their use in an informal discussion, and as no one on this discussion board can in any way persuade the eventual decisions of the juries or the jurists, it should then become apparent that any opinions of innocence or guilt are without consequence.

No one in this matter have lost any enumerated rights at all (except for Trayvon...), and there is no reason to believe anyone will lose any enumerated rights...

[ehrnst]

86. In a court of law he's presumed innocent. I'm not in a court of law, nor on a jury.

If I was, then I would have the duty to that presumption. I'm not, so I'm free to presume as I see fit.