General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMichael Pearl, "To Train Up A Child", and Corporal Punishment
Okay. I'm not a parent. I'll say that right now. Nor was I an abused child.
But the people on here who are suggesting that spanking is appropriate for young children need to realize the results that happen when you tell parents it's not only appropriate, but necessary, to utilize corporal punishment to "train" their children.
Here's a quote from their book.
"A seven-month-old boy had, upon failing to get his way, stiffened clenched his fists, bared his toothless gums and called down damnation on the whole place. At a time like that, the angry expression on a babys face can resemble that of one instigating a riot. The young mother, wanting to do the right thing, stood there in helpless consternation, apologetically shrugged her shoulders and said, What can I do? My incredulous nine-year-old whipped back, Switch him. The mother responded, I cant, hes too little. With the wisdom of a veteran who had been on the little end of the switch, my daughter answered, If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked.
On whipping a three year-old until he is "totally broken" (page 59):
"She then administers about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, Johnny, clean up your mess. He should very contritely wipe up the water."
On "switching" babies who are crying and not sleeping (page 60):
"But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down."
Given that this person seems to think it's fine for their nine year old to tell another mother to switch a 7 month old for crying... spanking a baby for failing to go to sleep on command?
There's more. They recommend the following:
-- Using plastic tubing to beat children, since it is too light to cause damage to the muscle or the bone
-- Wearing the plastic tubing around the parents neck as a constant reminder to obey
-- Swatting babies as young as six months old with instruments such as a 12-inch willowy branch, thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
-- Blanket training babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
-- Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
-- Training children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
-- Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
-- Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
-- Inflicting punishment until a child is without breath to complain
But here's the results of these practices.
http://www.babble.com/mom/to-train-up-a-child-teaches-punishment-that-kills-kids/
http://www.examiner.com/article/another-couple-found-guilty-of-murder-for-parenting-by-to-train-up-a-child
-----------
This may seem like the extremes, and that no parent in their right mind would ever murder their child trying to discipline them. But when people are taught that this is acceptable, and even necessary, this is what results.
Because corporal punishment simply doesn't work.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)your very own sociopath from the bottom up.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I'm horrified to think of what she has done since, if she had the care of any child, but especially a baby.
Babies cry. That's just part of being a parent. Even at 10 months, if they're fussy they may cry no matter if you put them down in their crib, pick them up and hold them while they kick and scream and do cartwheels in your arms, whatever. If you can figure out why they're fussy, that's the only way to make it stop. And even then, sometimes it's not something you can fix -- they might be missing their daddy, the Ambesol might not be working, the simethicone may not be working....
You just deal with it the best you can, until they calm down. If you have to put them down and go into another room, do it.
Don't beat them into "submission". (Or shake them, the only thing I think the Pearls managed NOT to recommend.)
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)like circuses treat their animals. Circuses that we, rightly so, condemn.
Pathwalker
(6,598 posts)absolute brutalization. Sick beyond words.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... that they must be doing the right thing.
Then wonder why their kids still aren't minding. And following the advice that you must *make* them submit.... well, leads to death, eventually.
Pathwalker
(6,598 posts)Not even a cold-hearted shepherd hits, spanks or or whips a sheep, it harms them too badly. The"rod" is used to simply prod a sheep in the direction you want it to go, the "hook" is used to rescue them if they fall off a cliff or embankment. So, sparing the rod simply means - don't let them run off wherever they want, but guide them.
That one Bible verse has caused more harm than any other one I know. I say this as someone who was punished with switches and a 7 strap leather razor strap, held together with a cast iron ring. From the bottom of my heart, I consider parents who beat their kids as terrible horrible shepherds, and lousy parents.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I won't name you, but that's too good not to share.
Pathwalker
(6,598 posts)nolabear
(41,984 posts)The rod is guidance, not beating. A good shepherd knows how to guide, not how to terrorize.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)They are just working towards "True Happiness" in the family.
(Note: I am not sincerely arguing this, just quoting from an individual here who won't be named)
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Thanks for the OP moriah. The teaching that a child's spirit must be broken with an iron rod needs to end. Now.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Is it too late?
Is that cult still even in existence?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Having said that, I leave this here.
http://www.hephzibahhouse.org/page8/index.html
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)They call themselves Christians? Looks more satanic to me or otherwise a perfect inversion of Christian thought.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)They believe that with all heart, all soul, all mind, and all strength. I don't say that to ridicule. I say that to emphasize the depth of their belief that they are doing the right thing.
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/11/03/corpses-dont-rebel-former-quiverfull-mom-reacts-to-death-of-hana-williams-by-biblical-chastisement/
moriah
(8,311 posts)At least five children have died at the hands of people who were practicing the "parenting style" advocated here
Quiverfull philosophies and other cults like that scare me, yet at the same time i'm oddly fascinated by them. I guess it's because the idea is just so foreign to me. Any man who thought I was going to swear to obey in my marriage vows had better look elsewhere.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)are practiced in many modern religious movements. I have linked to only two. Here's another ...
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2013/11/the-foul-toxicity-of-the-8-million-strong-independent-fundamental-baptists-headed-by-bob-jones-university/
20/20 investigates:
tblue37
(65,395 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)... to allow or tolerate.
Not to inflict suffering on them, but to be tolerant of the ways of children. Kids are kids. They don't have the same emotional control as adults. Expecting them to is insanity.
tblue37
(65,395 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)was absolutely horrifying. Why aren't those "people" in jail???
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I'd only be guessing.
After about 4 hours, Mr. Williams finally showed up with an announcement. He told us that a past student had filed child abuse charges against him and the school. Mr. Williams also told us that child welfare was on the way to pick us all up and take us to foster care homes. He told us that's why he had to get us out of state and send us home. He then left and I never saw him again.
http://hephzibah-girls.blogspot.com/2009/04/my-name-is-dawn-woodhull.html
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)knr
3catwoman3
(24,006 posts)It reads like something from centuries past.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)I don't know where to begin....but I do wonder when I see these large families of perfectly quiet children following the mother dressing in old fashioned clothes (Mennonite or Amish or whatever), how this quiet is achieved exactly. I am hoping not through these sorts of methods.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)And why have the authors not been charged with manslaughter? Seriously, this is such a nightmare.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)A better tactic is to pressure to publisher to stop printing the book because it's full of erroneous information and promotes sadism.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)My point is to get it out of print and circulation, period.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)I was actually looking on the site to see how I might do it with that horrid book.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)There's no direct way to report a book as questionable. I know last year some organization got in a snit about Big Foot Erotica (yes, you read that correctly) and demanded Amazon remove it from Amazon Publishing Services. They did a whole keyword algorithm search that ended up banning books that had nothing to do with what they felt was questionable erotica--mainly LGBT novels.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)Thanks for the idea Cleita. But I still think a retailer certainly can and should decide to not stock items that lead to abuse. Retailers are people and or groups of people. We can all make a difference in our own ways.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)in front of the checkout stands in the supermarket anymore. All they put out are the tabloids, but it is their choice. However, when a book is full of deliberate misinformation you should pressure the publisher to stop it. Of course that would mean that 90% of the books put out by the likes of Hannity, O'Reilly and other RW hacks would have to pass a truth test too so I don't think it will happen. So you can see why this is a slippery slope and censorship can lead to book burning and other practices that totalitarian regimes use to make sure that their propaganda is the only one the population sees.
I used to work in a bookstore that sold just about everything in print. I was constantly pressured by this group and that group to remove books from the shelves that were offensive to certain parties. There were books on witchcraft that the Christians didn't like. There were books on the Catholic Index of condemned books that the Catholics didn't like. There were gay romance novels that straight people didn't like and regular romance novels that literary readers thought were trash. Don't even get me started on other genres that met with disapproval of one group or another.
However, publishers are very free not to put something in print. Manuscripts are submitted to them in the thousands that are mostly thrown out because it doesn't meet their brand. That's were you go if you really think something offensive is being printed that is causing harm and in this case the deaths of innocent children.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)will have a big impact.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)against that idiot. There is plenty of evidence from the results of his advice to get some good lawyers on board for this.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)You aren't the only one who would like to see Amazon drop this offering.
But they're given to military families for free. And churches order the things in bulk.
dominionism. this is what it looks like.
Tumbulu
(6,278 posts)LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I didn't click on the links until later either.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)about what to sell or buy. None of them carry all of the books out there. None of them should carry this book.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)wouldn't touch it. He should be sued.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)that some hammer-headed, knuckle-dragging Jebus-wheezers were behind this even before I clicked the links in this thread. Disgusting.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)(I simply refuse to disgrace her with that label of "Williams", the name of her adoptive murderers.), it was discovered that there are a goodly number of parents in the area who also promote, sell, and strongly advocate such methods found within "To Train Up A Child" as the preferred handbook to break the spirit of what many fundamentalists describe as "rebellious" children. The Pearls' book reads like a guide-to-abuse manual...how to effectively physically and mentally torture a child without getting caught.
There were a total of nine children in the home where little Hana was tortured to death, she and the other little boy who was also adopted from Ethiopia and seven biological Williams kids. On the cold rainy day that Hana died in the backyard of the Williams property, two of the older sons had earlier been sent outdoors with that "plumbing rod" to force her into submission, by their mother, Carri Williams.
Even up to the final minutes when the body of Hana Alemu was eventually taken away from those private, idyllic acres of Sedro-Woolley, that woman thought that her method of dealing with an orphan isolated in a strange land, a defenseless 13 year old girl, was the fitting and proper way to direct a "difficult" child onto a path of godly righteousness...that it was her right as a "mother" to brutally strip another person of both her dignity and her self-worth.
I've posted about Hana's torture and murder here at DU before and also the need to condemn those barbaric Pearl "discipline" practices which are still popular and continually defended by so many in our nation.
Hana's Story By Kathryn Joyce ~ Nov. 9 2013
An adoptee's tragic fate, and how it could happen again.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/11/hana_williams_the_tragic_death_of_an_ethiopian_adoptee_and_how_it_could.html
Hana Alemu: We Will Not Forget by ellecuardaigh
http://ellecuardaigh.com/2014/04/06/hana-alemu-we-will-not-forget/
Death of little Hana Williams linked to "To Train Up a Child"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2040158
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)The more links we have the better.
moriah
(8,311 posts)A quote at the very beginning of the book -- I'm barely into the third chapter -- that scared the living hell out of me:
Such was her fascination with climbing that four or five sessions had not made her stop. The thought of further spankings was disconcerting, so I conceived an alternative. After one more spanking, I laid the switch on the bottom step. We later observed her crawl to the stairs and start the ascent, only to halt at the first step and stare at the switch. She backed off and never again attempted to climb the stairs, even after the switch was removed.
Switching a four month old???????
My fucking GOD.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)There is much satisfaction in training up a child. It is easy and challenging. When my children were able to crawl (in the case of one, roll) around the room, I set up training sessions.
Try it yourself. Place an appealing object where they can reach it, maybe in a "No-no" corner or on an apple juice table (That's where the coffee table once sat). When they spy it and make a dive for it, in a calm voice say, "No, don't touch it." They will already be familiar with the "No," so they will pause, look at you in wonder and then turn around and grab it. Switch their hand once and simultaneously say, "No." Remember, you are not disciplining, you are training. One spat with a little switch is enough. They will again pull back their hand and consider the relationship between the object, their desire, the command and the little reinforcing pain. It may take several times, but if you are consistent, they will learn to consistently obey, even in your absence.
And do not ask Ms. Pearl for advice on how to deal with your abusive husband. Just don't.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Hana's story is one of such extreme torture it's hard to imagine that it took place in this day and age. All in the name of "training" a child.
During the trial, probably the thing that most shocked observers was the testimony of the biological Williams children, how matter-of-factly they responded that Hana was whipped, starved, and imprisoned because she was "rebellious", all of them clearly believing that she'd deserved the outrageous horrific treatment she received.