GOD DAMN IT!!!!!

[sibelian]

Oh, well...

[NYC_SKP]

1. I know, me too. nt

[sibelian]

81. If anyone ever mentions the phrase "Scotland the Brave" to me ever again

I'm sticking a rolled up copy of the Telegraph up their arse.

[pinboy3niner]

2. It's only the beginning

[sibelian]

16. .... hmf.

I'd like to believe you but I really can't see another UK PM making the same mistakes as David Cameron. There have been calls for his resignation! I actually can't see any UK PM ever consenting to Scotland holding any referendum on anything ever again ever. They would have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

[Electric Monk]

3. How many times have we been here before?

[sibelian]

12. ANOTHER 15 fucking years will go by,

And by that time the oil reserves will have been depleted and pissed away on propping up a petrocurrency for London city spivs to play games with and there REALLY won't be enough left to make any economic difference to Scottish middle class vote. It was this time or nothing.

I don't think there's ever going to be another independence referendum.

[A HERETIC I AM]

4. I always love these completely informative posts.

The ones where everyone is on the exact same page.

[Art_from_Ark]

6. I think he's upset about the Scotland independence vote

[A HERETIC I AM]

7. Ahh.....well......

Certainly reason for obscurity.

[truebluegreen]

23. Nice.

[Ken Burch]

18. I thought it was gonna be a Chris Hardwick tribute thread.

[sibelian]

9. I'M PEEVED ABOUT MY STODGY, UNIMAGINATIVE FELLOW SCOTS.

Bah.

[CJCRANE]

56. You've come a long way. Give it time.

They'll figure it out in a couple more years.

[sibelian]

57. Yeah, after the fucking Barnett formula's ripped up and Westminster stops pussy-footing

And starts showing it's REAL face.

[hfojvt]

67. I am happy that my fellow Scots

voted against splinterism.

But then again, I am not a true Scotsman

Only about 1/16th.

[dixiegrrrrl]

91. Buy 'em books, send them to school and what do they do?

They eat the covers.

Frustrating indeed.

[liberal N proud]

76. Right?

[Justitia]

5. I am so very sorry....

[sibelian]

11. ...

Sigh.

Welp, austerity here we come! The insulation afforded us by the Scottish Parliament won't last much longer now...

[Justitia]

13. I hope you practice saying "I told you soooo!" with great relish. nt

[sibelian]

15. I will. But I don't WANT TOOOO!!!

That's been my permanent facial expression since the beginning of the fucking Iraq War. WHY have we got to trundle patiently through MAKING EVERY SINGLE FUCKING INDIVIDUAL MISTAKE EXPLICITLY before people listen to sense?

AAAARRRRRGH.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. Neither will the Tory government

the Tories will probably be out at the next general election; Miliband will be likely PM of a Labour government (although the inexplicably popular Boris is almost certain to be Tory leader).

[sibelian]

19. AAARGH! Milliband!!!!!

(head-desk)

He's a cardboard cut-out.

If it's Boris, we're fucked. The United Kingdom will be a laughing stock.

[pkdu]

8. Alex Salmond - is that you? n/t

[sibelian]

10. !

He'll be feeling VERY fed up, poor lad. Still, good game, I don't think anyone can say he didn't try his best.

[Mugu]

14. Yeah!!!!! n/t

[Ken Burch]

20. It was probably the letters everybody in Scotland got from their bosses right before polling day

saying they'd be out of a job if the "Yes" won.

[ReRe]

27. Did they really do that? n/t

[Denzil_DC]

68. Well, there a lot of reports out there about similar goings-on

Our local paper (I live right by our nuke sub bases) said that one contractor warned its workers a few days before the referendum that if the vote went Yes, they would no longer subcontract for the Royal Navy at Faslane and Coulport so they'd be out of a job.

Nevertheless, Yes won handily in the region that includes the bases.

[Spider Jerusalem]

29. It was actually probably the fact that "yes" never had majority support.

[Nye Bevan]

87. There must be a few examples of such letters scanned and posted on the internet,

musn't there?

[blkmusclmachine]

21. What Company "counted" the votes? Is there any mechanism for independent verification; do we blindly

accept what the vote "counter" said as true???

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. All the polls except for one outlier had "no" ahead by a reasonable margin

when the referendum was announced, independence only had 33% support. The pro-independence campaigners did much better than anyone really thought they would.

[Denzil_DC]

30. There's no company that counts the vote.

Votes are counted by hand (though in exceptional cases electronic tallying has been used, for instance in complex London elections, but there's always the backup of hand recounting if it's called for, as the votes are on paper).

Returning officers, voting officers etc. are usually council officials and employees from across the political board (in the case of those doing the counting, they're often bank tellers, as they're used to shuffling paper quickly and systematically). They have to swear an oath and sign the Official Secrets Act. Also, agents from the interested parties are present at the vote, free to wander around and observe proceedings, and can challenge any irregularities. The papers from the vote will be stored under seal (usually for a year and a day) in case questions arise after the event. This includes not just the individual ballots, but all the lists and accompanying paperwork from each polling station that can be cross-tabulated if necessary.

Electoral shenanigans aren't impossible, but there's a paper trail, a wide variety of people are involved at each stage, and in practice few votes in the UK are seriously contested, and there's a big fuss whenever it happens. For instance, in Glasgow they've detected 10 cases of "personation" during yesterday's poll (the old "vote early, vote often" thing), but that's a minuscule percentage of the Glasgow electorate, a stupid way to try to finagle as the penalties are severe for next to no return, and in this case it was easily detected.

Like it or not, there's no reason to assume this result's illegitimate.

[truebluegreen]

24. Sorry...

[sibelian]

50. Thank you...

[lovemydog]

25. I'm sorry sibelian.

I was rooting for you and your compatriots today. Many here in the USA feel your pain. Mad props and respect for your cause, and for the Scottish people for bringing out so many people to the polls and for so many who voted for independence. I hope things do truly get better, as was promised by all. I must say though that it felt a bit like lip service. Any way, all the best to you.

[sibelian]

52. Thank you, lovemydog.

And, yes, we will see the colour of the Unionists' money.

My own suspicion is that they lack the power to deliver, though their intent may even be genuine.

[IkeRepublican]

26. Trying to make it real compared to what?

Fear of the unknown is my guess.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. It's going to be okay

I know it's not the best outcome - but you guys came damn close. Don't retreat - reload politically and charge.

[Denzil_DC]

31. It's going to be interesting, for a variety of reasons.

For instance, Johann Lamont, the Labour Party leader in Scotland (and a mainstay of the No campaign), just saw her constituency vote decisively for Yes!

And now this whole thing gets to play out and we see what those late-bribe promises of more powers for Scotland in the event of a No vote are worth. If they don't pan out, expect carnage at the next election among the No camp.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. And Alex Salmond's constituency voted even more decisively for "no" (n/t)

[Denzil_DC]

34. Did Salmond make last-minute promises for blatant electoral gain?

If not, that's not a valid comparison and misses my point.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Try last-minute threats.

Numerous credible reports of pro-Union Scottish business leaders receiving phone calls from the Scottish government advising them to "reconsider their position". And things like this: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-fear-and-loathing-in-the-battle-for-scotland-9730442.html

And this: http://realbusiness.co.uk/article/27121-snp-accused-of-threatening-anti-independence-businesses-

There's quite a lot of this, if you look, in fact.

[Denzil_DC]

39. And such threats and conniving and calling in of favors haven't happened from the No side?

Really? There's quite a lot of that if you look with an open mind.

Anyway, the fact is that Brown, Cameron etc. made promises - during what was supposed to be a period of "purdah" in the run-up to the vote when no new policy initiatives were supposed to be announced, by the way - they can't deliver on (and in Cameron's case quite possibly had no intention of delivering on) because Tory backbenchers are now seizing on the situation for their own leverage, egged on by Gove.

People are going to have a chance to see how this all pans out, and they'll remember who stood side by side with the Tories.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. I don't see standing for the United Kingdom to remain united as "standing with the Tories".

And neither did a majority of voters in Scotland, apparently (including those in strongly SNP-voting areas; remember Scotland only returned on Tory MP at the last general election).

[sibelian]

46. Fuck sake, spider. We would NEVER have lived under a Tory government again.

Sigh...

[Denzil_DC]

53. Don't fret, Sibelian

Spider_Jerusalem doesn't, as far as I know, live in Scotland, so it's inevitable that there'll be a different perspective, not least given the tenor of the UK and Scottish media coverage over the past few weeks, which has been nothing short of shameful in some cases.

Get some sleep, see some friends, commiserate, discuss, then pick yourself up again. This is a process. It may not lead to independence (the vote should never have been straight Yes/No, it should have included Devo Max, as Salmond wanted and Cameron vetoed), but this degree of political engagement and the mutual political education that's been going on won't just evaporate.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. And meanwhile here in Wales we would've been saddled with them for the foreseeable

so I'm pretty happy with the results, personally.

Lucky for Salmond he lost the referendum anyway; without Westminster to blame for all of Scotland's problems...

[sibelian]

66. Fine, Mr What about ME

If your country hasn't the guts to stand up for something it believes in the rest of us have to have queues at foodbanks, hm? What a fantastic Union! I feel so proud!

[Spider Jerusalem]

69. And meanwhile control of welfare and tax will be among further devolved powers...

under a new constitutional settlement; which means a) you'll have to stop whingeing, and b) the SNP won't be able to blame the Tories anymore.

[Denzil_DC]

70. What, you know for sure what this "settlement" will consist of?

Even Cameron doesn't know that, whatever scant good intentions he might have. He has his whipped-up Little Englander backbenchers and the UKIP threat to contend with. They're going to want several pounds of flesh, and this will affect Wales as much as anywhere else.

[sibelian]

77. Yeah and invisibility, superstrength and telekinesis.

I can't wait. Do I get to wear a cape?

That vow had NO MEANING. Labour has to ratify it's policy at the national conference. There is no necessity for them whatsoever to re-engage with Scotland EVER, no UK prime minister is ever going to put his head back in the noose.

As for changes to the UK's constitution, that wind will blow through the media for a month, if we're lucky, and then be gone. They don't NEED to do it, so they WON'T. England doesn't give a fuck about constitutional anything, all they care about is X Factor. There's no mandate. It won't happen. Cameron's already placing it beyond the next GE.

[Denzil_DC]

47. Accepting the Tory framing for the debate will have long-term consequences.

Like it or not, a number of politicians have seriously tarnished their image in Scotland. And yes, they stood with the Tories. They argued that the future of the NHS, for instance, was safer in UK than outside it, basically saying that the NHS is safe in the government's hands. How can they then turn round and argue against Tory rolling privatisation etc.? Or is that privatisation now going to be added to the post-Blairite concensus?

When the threats to the NHS that the Yes campaign warned about materialize, when the increased powers the Scottish Assembly was promised don't, when a few months from now we see how Gove's "English voters for English laws" pans out, which are hardly likely to favor Scotland in any way, then we can talk about how those traditional SNP areas voted. And then we'll see what happens in coming elections.

[sibelian]

44. I'm so dispirited.

All that hope and enthusiasm.

I don't think it'll come back.

[JustAnotherGen]

65. So is someone I work with

He was military/secret service there (MI6???) - married an American and moved here. He's not too happy this morning.

[ScottishDee]

72. Losing hope...

Hi Sibelian

Long time reader of DU but felt I had to create an account just to echo how your feelings. Voted yesterday so filled with hope, and to find it blown away a few hours later as I was sitting up watching the counts come in.... Woke up this morning just completely depressed. By the margin much more so than the actual defeat itself.

I feel especially bad for the people I know who were so enthused but are at an age where they probably have seen their chance at seeing an independent Scotland pass them by. Like you I think I have lost much of my hope (not quite 30 yet though, so I do hold out some) and enthusiasm and am feeling nothing but pretty damn cynical now.

I will be extremely hacked off if I start hearing moaning from NO voters in the future, about being on the receiving end of the Tories turning the screw on Scotland, after yet again, being unelected up here. This was such a good chance to be free of it.

Oh well...

[Denzil_DC]

73. Let me be the first to say ...

... a hearty welcome to DU!

[ScottishDee]

80. Thanks!

Much appreciated!

[sibelian]

85. Yeah.

It's that I didn't want to be Cassandra. I didn't WANT to have to say "I told you so."

[malaise]

33. You did scare the

'shite' out of Cameron et al. Devolution will eventually lead to independence because 45% is a very large number of people who want to break away.

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. The Quebec referendum in 1995 was 49.4% "yes" to 50.6 "no".

There hasn't been another, and probably won't be (the Parti Quebeçois only won 25% of the vote at the last elections).

[malaise]

40. Good point

but don't forget that North Sea oil.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. Forecast to run out in 30 years or so

and declining year-on-year since production peaked in 1999.

[sibelian]

45. The oil won't be enough next time. The middle class vote needs some kind of economic carrot.

It's all going to get pissed away on supporting city spivs' bonuses.

Christ, I could just bawl...

[malaise]

48. For my sources the Edinburgh vote

was always going to sink the YES vote.

[sibelian]

49. Yeah. I live in Edinburgh.

FUCK YOU, EDINBURGH. YOU SUCK.

[malaise]

51. I feel your pain

Did Glasgow vote yes?

[Denzil_DC]

55. Decisively!

Yes -194,779 (53%) No - 169,347 (47%) even with a disappointing (in this unusual context) 75% turnout.

Across the board, economically disadvantaged areas voted Yes, less disadvantaged areas No. That no doubt indicates something.

[malaise]

59. As expected

Their vote makes sense

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. There won't be enough oil, next time, you mean.

If/when there's another referendum (which I wouldn't expect for 20 or 30 years) there won't be enough oil left to be worth making an issue of. It certainly won't be enough to fund a Caledonian social-democratic Utopia.

[joshcryer]

35. Hope and change.

Such silly concepts.

All politics are local. Live with the elites. Work without them.

[Bosonic]

36. At least it's put Frankie Boyle in a good mood

After years of disastrous football matches it will be exciting to finally watch Scotland take a tanking off itself

https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/512714167589949442

[Rhinodawg]

41. Sometimes democracy doesnt get it right.

[CJCRANE]

54. The "NO" voters will get buyers' remorse

before too long.

[sibelian]

58. ... yes.

But that's not really a very happy story, is it?

I really didn't think my cynicism could harden any further.

[CJCRANE]

64. Just see it as a stepping stone.

The idea, the genie is out of the bottle.

Now it can build into a truly popular movement.

But the ball is in Westminster's court for the time being.

Let's see how they handle it.

[scarletwoman]

60. Damn. My condolences.

It would have been a grand thing to see the independence vote prevail. All I can do is wish you all the best going forward.

[seaglass]

61. Sorry sibelian. :-( n/t

[sibelian]

79. Aye, me too.

[seaglass]

90. I imagine you've seen this sibelian or could have predicted it?

:large

[sibelian]

94. I hadn;t seen it, but could have predictd most of it, yes.

There's been a big difference in age and gender for some time, and the SNP failed to move these demographics., although, to be fair, I wouldn't have expected 43% of 55-64 year olds to want independence. The 18-24 blip in that fairly clear age-related trend is a little odd, though...

[Puglover]

71. I'm very sorry

Sibelian.

Oh a bright note, it is lovely to see you again at DU.

[davidpdx]

74. If it's any consolation I was rooting for your side

I know it's not.

[maced666]

75. The people have spoken.

Accept it like you would expect others to had things been different.

[sibelian]

78. Pf! As if. We'd never have heard the end of it.

It's a nonsensical position, "accept it", what's the point of discussing ANY politics if you're just going to shut up whenever the other side wins a vote?

[ScottishDee]

84. They have

People who supported YES I think are accepting the will of the people. That does not mean the debate should be shut down nor does it mean we have to like it. Even though there is a sole Tory MP (2% of the total) in Scotland, we are lumbered with a Conservative government (the Lib Dems seem to almost say yes to anything Tory) that represents none of the progressive nature of Scottish politics imo.

Plus, are you telling me this is not the kind of reaction you get to Republican electoral victories? and that Democrats would just accept it?

[woo me with science]

82. Damn, I'm sorry, sibelian.

The rose of all the world is not for me.
I want for my part
Only the little white rose of Scotland
That smells sharp and sweet - and breaks the heart.

Hugh MacDiarmid, The Little White Rose.

[sibelian]

96. I'm seriously sulking. Damn you, Edinburgh! My beautiful home city is a big fearty!

You could have been the capital of a truly progressive nation! Rarg!

[L0oniX]

83. Oh you're still here.

[sibelian]

86. ...

[L0oniX]

88. sorry ...thought the sarc tag wasn't needed.

[sibelian]

95. Ach!

[NuclearDem]

89. Damn Scots!

[sibelian]

92. Yes! they did! I AM Groundskeeper Willie!!!!

Scotland the Brave my arse. Scotland the STODGY. Scotland the DREARY. Scotland the COWARD!

Pfah. The Scottish people suck. The Scottish are skittish.

[Cleita]

93. Sorry.

I felt the same when GWB became President.