So a man who had killed one of his sons in a hunting accident

[malaise]

and who spent three years in prison - a convicted felon - killed his daughter and her six children (aged 11 years to 10 weeks)
According to officials, there were several calls to this house over a long period of time.
How was he allowed to own guns?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/don-spirit-kills-daughter-six-grandchildren-bell-florida-n206861
<snip>
A convicted felon fatally shot his daughter and six grandchildren before killing himself in a Florida home Thursday, police said. The shooter, who was identified as 51-year-old Don Spirit, took his own life after police officers arrived at the residence in Bell, outside Gainesville, Gilchrist County Sheriff Robert Schultz said. Schultz said that authorities found the seven victims "all over on the property." They included a 10-week-old baby.

Spirit already had a lengthy criminal record stretching back 22 years, according to Florida corrections records. Reports from 2003 show that one charge, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, came after he pleaded guilty to accidentally shooting and killing his 8-year-old son while they were out hunting. He was sentenced to three years in prison. Spirit was also convicted of depriving a child of food and shelter, battery, and possession of drug paraphernalia between 1992 and 1995. Schultz said officers had previously "been out to that residence on numerous law enforcement occasions." The victims were identified as Sarah Lorraine Spirit, 28, and her daughters Alanna Stewart, 2½ months, Brandon Stewart, 4, Destiny Stewart, 5, and Kylie Kuhlmann, 9, and sons Johnathon Kuhlmann, 8, and Kaleb Kuhlmann, 11. "This is something you can't explain," Schultz said at a press conference. "I will continue to ask everybody to pray for the families."

-------------------------
Of course you can explain it Schultz - he should not have been allowed to have a weapon.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Oh, yes. Pray for the families. That will solve everything won't it?

[malaise]

2. That really pissed me off

The NRA preys while mourners and sympathizers pray.

[Jenoch]

5. How will the sheriff's request

cause any problems?

[Arkansas Granny]

8. How will it alleviate the problem?

If prayer brings comfort to the families, then pray. However, all the prayers in the world won't change the incidence of gun violence. We need to look for preventative measures and there might be fewer families grieving over these gruesome events.

[Jenoch]

13. The request by the sheriff does not preclude the violence.

[handmade34]

44. exactly

prayer "does not preclude the violence" and it does nothing afterwards...

righteous anger is much more effective than prayer...

prayer is an excuse, a "let's just give up because we can't do anything about it"

[Jenoch]

86. I did not make any claim pro or con.

[MH1]

27. Diversion from what people really should be thinking about. nt

[Iggo]

34. It'll accomplish exactly nothing.

Well, I guess "distraction" isn't exactly nothing.

[Union Scribe]

85. It won't. It's just the Pavlovian response around here

any time something religious is mentioned.

[CanonRay]

48. The Right's answer to all problems

Pray for the family, pray the gay away, pray for our boys overseas.....makes me sick.

[IdaBriggs]

75. The assumption only "prayer" can help victims relieves the rest of us of responsibility.

I am a woman of faith, and have found prayer to be a great source of comfort in times of trouble.

However, prayer should NOT relieve the rest of us of the responsibility to find better ways to PREVENT gun violence.

We are a community of human beings.

There has to be a better way.

I believe my prayers on the topic will go to "strength for the courage to stand up against greed and fear" in the ongoing battle to prevent this type of carnage.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. With guns so readily available, how do you stop him?

He already had one charge of illegally owning a gun, but owning a gun seems to be as easy, and difficult to control, as owning an unregistered car or a bag of crack.

[LittleBlue]

74. Bingo. We have nearly as many guns as people

Hard to see how this tragedy is avoided by telling a psychotic murderer he can't have guns

[shenmue]

77. Background checks at the store

Not that hard to do.

[LittleBlue]

79. I can buy an arsenal if I spend a day hunting garage sales

That's the problem. They are everywhere, impossible to effectively regulate and cheaply available.

[Lee-Lee]

4. He wasn't allowed to

But he did anyway.

[sendero]

6. And mental giants..

... think that if there were just MORE laws, perhaps he would have obeyed them. It's ridiculous.

Here folks is the poster child for why gun regulation is USELESS.

[malaise]

7. On the contrary

We need to find out if the cops who showed up there several times ever searched for or removed illegal guns.

[sendero]

10. To do that he would have required..

... probable cause.

In any event the vast majority of people who own guns in defiance of the law never come in contract with the police except perhaps after they have used them to commit a crime.

People with a criminal mindset, the very people you are afraid of, are not going to concern themselves with piddly laws. If you are willing to murder someone it's not likely that you are concerned with posession laws.

[malaise]

15. In his case probable cause was a preexisting condition n/t

[Lee-Lee]

91. A felony conviction doesn't waive your 4th enemy rights

Unless he was still on probation there was no legal justification for searching for guns, no more than there would be for searching for drugs in the home of someone with a past conviction.

[Logical]

47. Not if he was on probation. nt

[eggplant]

9. Yes, it is amazing.

People still rob banks, even though that is illegal, too. We should probably get rid of those laws as well.

[eggplant]

12. Gotta love the old ad hominem

Can't make an argument? Then be sure to speak poorly of the opposition.

[Skittles]

55. sometimes it's a waste of time arguing

when the logic simply is not there, why bother?

[Eleanors38]

67. Not much logic in prohibitionism.

[Demeter]

37. I think getting rid of banks would be the perfect solution

Since so many banks engage in criminal activities that don't even get prosecuted....it's a win-win!

[Skittles]

52. there's no gun problem in America!

why can't we all just SEE that?

[Sancho]

25. People Control, Not Gun Control

This is my generic response to gun threads where people are shot and killed by the dumb or criminal possession of guns. For the record, I grew up in the South and on military bases. I was taught about firearms as a child, and I grew up hunting, was a member of the NRA, and I still own guns. In the 70’s, I dropped out of the NRA because they become more radical and less interested in safety and training. Some personal experiences where people I know were involved in shootings caused me to realize that anyone could obtain and posses a gun no matter how illogical it was for them to have a gun. Also, easy access to more powerful guns, guns in the hands of children, and guns that weren’t secured are out of control in our society. As such, here’s what I now think ought to be the requirements to possess a gun. I’m not debating the legal language, I just think it’s the reasonable way to stop the shootings. Notice, none of this restricts the type of guns sold. This is aimed at the people who shoot others, because it’s clear that they should never have had a gun.

1.) Anyone in possession of a gun (whether they own it or not) should have a regularly renewed license. If you want to call it a permit, certificate, or something else that's fine.
2.) To get a license, you should have a background check, and be examined by a professional for emotional and mental stability appropriate for gun possession. It might be appropriate to require that examination to be accompanied by references from family, friends, employers, etc. This check is not to subject you to a mental health diagnosis, just check on your superficial and apparent gun-worthyness.
3.) To get the license, you should be required to take a safety course and pass a test appropriate to the type of gun you want to use.
4.) To get a license, you should be over 21. Under 21, you could only use a gun under direct supervision of a licensed person and after obtaining a learner’s license. Your license might be restricted if you have children or criminals or other unsafe people living in your home. (If you want to argue 18 or 25 or some other age, fine. 21 makes sense to me.)
5.) If you possess a gun, you would have to carry a liability insurance policy specifically for gun ownership - and likely you would have to provide proof of appropriate storage, security, and whatever statistical reasons that emerge that would drive the costs and ability to get insurance.
6.) You could not purchase a gun or ammunition without a license, and purchases would have a waiting period.
7.) If you possess a gun without a license, you go to jail, the gun is impounded, and a judge will have to let you go (just like a DUI).
8.) No one should carry an unsecured gun (except in a locked case, unloaded) when outside of home. Guns should be secure when transporting to a shooting event without demonstrating a special need. Their license should indicate training and special circumstances beyond recreational shooting (security guard, etc.).
9.) If you buy, sell, give away, or inherit a gun, your license information should be recorded.
10.) If you accidentally discharge your gun, commit a crime, get referred by a mental health professional, are served a restraining order, etc., you should lose your license and guns until reinstated by a serious relicensing process.

Most of you know that a license is no big deal. Besides a driver’s license you need a license to fish, rent scuba equipment, operate a boat, or many other activities. I realize these differ by state, but that is not a reason to let anyone without a bit of sense pack a semiautomatic weapon in public, on the roads, and in schools. I think we need to make it much harder for some people to have guns.

[Arkansas Granny]

63. I've always thought that a licensing program similar to this makes sense.

With rights come responsibilities. As you point out, a license is required to fish, drive, hunt, etc. I don't see why a license to own a gun should be considered to be more onerous than these.

[TreasonousBastard]

78. I agree with you, but...

it's often pointed out that there is no specific Constitutional right to fish, hunt, or drive, so licensing is doomed.

And, as a practical matter, with hundreds of millions of guns out there already, how do you even start licensing them?

[Arkansas Granny]

81. You start by requiring anyone appliying for a hunting license show their firearms license.

The same goes if you try to buy ammunition. If a person is found to be in possession of a firearm without a license, they would be fined. It wouldn't get them all, but it's a start.

[Sancho]

83. I'm NOT licensing guns....

If you want to buy a bullet, go hunting or to a shooting range, carry a gun, or sell a gun the PERSON needs a license.

I'm NOT suggesting background checks at every gun shop - only a license. The gateway to possession of a gun is a simple license with appropriate clearance that you are safe.

If you try to buy a gun or bullet, show a license. If you don't have one then you forfeit your gun (just like a DUI) until a judge let's you go!!!

That way, it would only take a short while before guns and criminals were obviously standing out.

You could hide the millions of guns, but the incentive would be for normal, lawful folks to get a license. No one else would be able to buy, sell, get ammo, visit a place to shoot, carry, or conceal without a license. They would show up pretty quickly.

Mainly, the complete criminals and disturbed people and children would find it MUCH harder to get their hands on guns.

[Doctor_J]

80. That sounds like a lot more laws

which the gunsters say is the wrong thing.

[Sancho]

82. Unless someone advocates for "no laws" and anarchy, there has to be something...

A license is common in our system for many, many activities. Why not one that protects the public?

This has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment and does not restrict any particular type of weapon. I'm just suggesting that people have to have a typical set of requirements in order to possess a gun.

I can't think of any easier way to do it. If someone has a better way, I'd like to hear it.

[A Simple Game]

28. Just one more law... mandatory background checks on all gun sales.

Maybe even make it illegal to sell a gun unless through a licensed gun dealer which would make records more likely.

Any "Mental Giant" knows you can't stop the criminals from wanting to obtain guns, you have to stop the easy access through private sales and no background checks.

[HereSince1628]

33. Not sure if "useless" is really accurate.

That seems like a voice for anarchy which could just create a civil arms race.

Folks taking what they want or protecting what they have, dependent only on available personal force, would generate a society that would likely be pretty ugly pretty fast.

[DrDan]

51. this is just silly - your argument suggests ANY law is "useless" because someone will break it

[Skittles]

53. it's NRA logic!!!

[B Calm]

14. His daughter was only 28 years old and already had 6 children. .

[malaise]

16. I noticed that

three by the time she was 20. No surprise since her father appears to have had more baggage than a Fed Ex warehouse.

[cyberswede]

31. My mom had her first 6 kids by age 29...

And then she had me at 36 and my little sister at 38.

Not sure I understand your point.

[Paladin]

41. Explain your comment, please. (nt)

[B Calm]

43. Having six children before age 28 is rare now days, that's all I'm saying! Probably

because of birth control?

[Le Taz Hot]

50. Pro choice

doesn't mean people have to approve of her decision. What she does with her reproductive system is none of anyone's business.

[Skittles]

54. some people are wondering if the killer is the father

[Le Taz Hot]

57. From what I understand,

the accused killer is HER father who killed her and his 6 grandchildren, Just as troubling is that he served three years in 2001 for "accidentally" killing his 8-year-old son in a "hunting accident." Further, he had been charged with depriving a child of food and child abuse earlier.

Sounds like JUST the kind of person who needs a gun.

[Barack_America]

58. Sounds like just the kind of person you'd want your 6 kids to live with.

Not judging, just saying it's awful the kids were around him, whatever the reason for it was. Poverty? Incest? Cycle of abuse?

[Le Taz Hot]

60. . . .threats to kill them all

if she kicked him out . . .

[Barack_America]

62. Hadn't heard that. Just awful.

There are truly no words.

[Le Taz Hot]

64. I haven't either,

It's just a real possibility having had experience with that kind of person.

[Skittles]

59. some people think HE could have fathered the children

as far as gun humping cowards go, they are a dime a dozen in America, where the NRA wetdream is everyone armed and paranoid

[Le Taz Hot]

61. Holy shit,

this is the first I've heard that. Woah!

[malaise]

66. Given their surnames

I doubt that part.

[Arkansas Granny]

65. What does that have to do with anything?

[B Calm]

73. See post 43?

[Recursion]

17. Umm... he wasn't allowed to have a weapon

Hell, one of his priors was possessing a weapon when he wasn't allowed to.

[malaise]

18. Who exactly was checking to see that he did not have another one

on all the occasions they were called to the house?

He shot seven more people before killing himself.

[malaise]

24. Don't we all? n/t

[Recursion]

42. Olive branch: yes, and that was unfair snark on my part

Yes, everyone does agree that we need greater enforcement of existing laws, particularly proponents of greater gun control. In fact, that response of mine was entirely stupid, and I apologize.

[malaise]

71. Peace

I'm not the sensitive type

[Catherine Vincent]

19. Horrific!

Those poor babies.

[intaglio]

20. Not allowed near guns? He shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near kids

FFS "... accidentally shooting and killing his 8-year-old son ..." "... depriving a child of food and shelter, battery ..."

[malaise]

26. +1,000 n/t

[cyberswede]

32. Yep. nt

[WinkyDink]

22. I'm re-thinking that earlier "accident."

[malaise]

23. Like most of us

This fugger was depriving a child of food - they remove children from homes like that one for less reasons.

[A Simple Game]

29. That thought occurred to me also. n/t

[bullwinkle428]

30. My VERY FIRST THOUGHT as well.

[strawberries]

35. I hate to generalize

but I just saw a picture of the guy who basically killed his whole family.

They all look the same
1. they wear the same type uniform, almost military looking
2. well armed
3. white
4. can survive in the wilderness

You can flame me, but show me differently

[strawberries]

36. oh shit

I was looking at the guy who killed the state cops.

My goodness they are all starting to blend in my mind

[freshwest]

84. it's the eyes in these pictures that does it for me.

[heaven05]

46. says it all

[greytdemocrat]

38. That waste of skin

Should have been removed from the gene pool a long time ago.

[Ineeda]

39. I wonder

if there was a holy-roller aspect here, or just general nutsville. That area is widely fundamentalist, and they might have adhered to the Quiverful philosophy, given the number of kids. Just speculating, of course. Very sad, in any case.

Not really relevant, but does anyone else think that 2001 mugshot at the link bears a remarkable resemblance to Jeb Bush?
Creepy.

[malaise]

68. When we were driving from Orlando to UF for a graduation, one of my relatives pointed out

that the area is full of 'cross burners' as in KKK. Don't know much else.

[Baitball Blogger]

40. It being Florida, the question is moot.

[heaven05]

45. "he can't explain it"

I can.........as simple as 1 2 3. Crazy fuck shouldn't have been allowed a weapon or to be around living people or animals.

[malaise]

69. +1,000

I can't believe this madness.

[DesertDiamond]

49. What a terrifying and sad experience that must have been for them. Life must have been

terrifying and sad for them too. At this moment I can only say that I hope they go on to have better fortune and happier family lives in their next lifetime. I am so going to chant for this!

[KG]

56. ya'll hatin' on guns again?

where's my fainting couch?

[surrealAmerican]

70. Whoever sold or otherwise provided him with that gun ...

... or any of the guns he had, needs to be going to jail for a good long time. I wonder if that can be determined.

[Hoyt]

72. Maybe, but the gun loving organizations make it very difficult by opposing

registration. Even if they identify who made the transfer, they'll likely say how were they to know the Yahoo shouldn't have guns.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

76. It sounds like the hunting accident might not have been an accident.

[951-Riverside]

87. Anyone remember Amy Bishop? She "accidently" shot her brother, was never charged then went on...

to shoot 6 people (killing 3) 24 years later.

?ve=1&tl=1

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/02_15_Amy_Bishop/

Most shootings are not accidents.

[Matrosov]

88. Why prohibition is better than regulation

A great example of the failure of gun control. As a convicted felon, he was ineligible to purchase a gun, yet he got his hands on one anyway. That's because gun-free zones and laws against felons purchasing weapons and so forth are not going to stop criminals who want to gun someone down.

The one thing about which the NRA is correct is that gun regulation does not stop criminals. However, their idea that the way to stop gun violence is with more gun violence is as nonsensical as telling a lung cancer patient to smoke more in the hopes of his cancer developing a tumor of its own and dying.

On the other hand, he could've never shot anyone if there weren't any guns to buy in the first place. Getting guns out of our society is the answer.

[DrDan]

89. there were crisis counselors at the school yesterday

Last edited Sat Sep 20, 2014, 09:55 AM - Edit history (1)

I kept wondering throughout the day if they had any words of wisdom for the family's classmates . . . like, "don't worry, the adults are going to make sure this doesn't happen again . . . you are safe"

or if they told the truth

[malaise]

90. We'll soon have more crisis counselors

in schools than teachers.