Crying Rape - Rape False rape accusations exist, and they are a serious problem.

[Agschmid]

In the emotionally charged conversation about rape, few topics are more fraught than that of false allegations. Consider some responses to the news that singer-songwriter Conor Oberst had been falsely accused of sexual assault. Last December a woman writing in the comments section of the website xoJane, going by the name Joanie Faircloth, claimed Oberst raped her when she was a teenager. The charge spread across the Internet; Oberst denied it and brought a libel suit against Faircloth when she refused to retract the story. In July she completely recanted, admitting that she had made it all up to get attention. Yet instead of showing sympathy for the ordeal of the musician—one known for being supportive of feminist issues—some chided him for taking legal action to defend himself against a false, career-damaging charge. In the Daily Dot, pop culture critic Chris Ostendorf decried the lawsuit, arguing that it could intimidate real victims of rape and that it promoted the idea of men as victims of false accusations—even though that’s exactly what Oberst was. After Oberst dropped the suit, Bustle’s Caroline Pate praised his decision and referred to the saga as “a roller-coaster for both parties”—treating the false accuser and the wrongly accused as morally equivalent—and called the revelation of Oberst’s innocence “crushingly disappointing.”

False rape accusations are a lightning rod for a variety of reasons. Rape is a repugnant crime—and one for which the evidence often relies on one person’s word against another’s. Moreover, in the not-so-distant past, the belief that women routinely make up rape charges often led to appalling treatment of victims. However, in challenging what author and law professor Susan Estrich has called “the myth of the lying woman,” feminists have been creating their own counter-myth: that of the woman who never lies.

More than a quarter-century ago, feminist legal theorist Catharine MacKinnon wrote that “feminism is built on believing women’s accounts of sexual use and abuse by men”; today, Jessica Valenti urges us to “believe victims en masse,” because only then will we recognize the true prevalence of sexual assault. But a de facto presumption of guilt in alleged sexual offenses is as dangerous as a presumption of guilt in any crime, and for the same reasons: It upends the foundations on which our system of justice rests and creates a risk of ruining innocent lives.

Full Slate article here.

[uppityperson]

1. False Rape charges make it really difficult on people who have been raped, as well as for those

charged wrongly.

[Agschmid]

2. They do.

This article was a really good reads, parts made me frustrated but you pretty much nailed the main idea. False rape accusations are a problem because it just bolsters the case of (a generalization) MRA's. And that just doesn't do any good.

[yeoman6987]

28. The worst was the Duke Lacrosse team

Ruined many lies due to false alligations. You don't hear to many faulse alligations in the news though.

[BronxBoy]

46. No it wasn't......

The worst cases occurred when people spent decades in prison or, in times gone by, lynched due to false allegations.
News flash.

As horrible as the Duke case was, the system worked for them

Here's just one example: murder with this one but you get the point

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/02/north-carolina-death-row-30-years-exonerated-dna

[yeoman6987]

50. Your right

Typing before thinking. I do it too much.

[mercuryblues]

55. But this

is not a casa of a false rape claim. The woman who was murdered was raped. This is a case where the police willingly mis -investigated the crime and coerced confessions.

[BronxBoy]

57. Way to miss the point...,

Still worse than the Duke case.

[mercuryblues]

68. What point

The post is about false rape claims. You use the very real rape and murder of a woman to make a point of how false rape claims ruin people's lives. It wasn't a false rape claim that ruined those two men's lives. It was the investigators and prosecutors that caused them great harm.

[sabrina 1]

180. Was someone wrongfully accused of that crime? I haven't read the link but assume

that was the case. If so, then you ARE missing the point. Accusing the wrong people of a real rape or falsely accusing someone when no rape occurred, damage the cases of those who have been raped.

A real rapist got away if someone else was falsely convicted.

[mercuryblues]

191. focus

The OP is about women who make false rape claims. Not police and prosecutors who wrongfully accuse.

The woman was really RAPED and MURDERED. It was not a false claim. The person tried to equate that case is the same as when a woman makes a false claim of rape, results in the same outcome. Clearly that is not true. because 1st off the woman was dead, she did not accuse those them. 2. The police and prosecutor did. They are the ones who falsely accused them of it and sent them to death row. 3. thanks to them other woman have most likely been raped and killed. But in no way shape or form did the woman make a false claim of rape, ruining peoples lives.

If you had read the article, you would know that the rate of actual false claims falls somewhere between 2 and 10%. These are labeled by the police as false claims and not investigated any further. NO arrest, NO trials. You might even be shocked to learn that woman who make a false claim, doesn't usually identify a person as her rapist. So even the 2-10% of false accusations are even lower for actual men being falsely accused of rape. Some of the false accusations do not even come from the supposed victim, a family member or friend reports it. So, no what the author of the article missed is that women are not running to the police in droves making false rape claims naming specific men and ruining their lives.

Some people like to include the unsubstantiated into the category of false claims. The author of the article tended to blur the lines. Unsubstantiated simply means that the victim stopped cooperating, the victim was not perfect IE a sex worker or drug addict, the complaint did not rise to the level of what is considered assault, the victim waited too long to make a report and many other reasons.

Even the police tend to get it wrong and close out the cases under the wrong category. Just to close them out. The MRA types like to combine the 2 to boost the % of "false claims" meme.

[Luminous Animal]

195. Excellent post. And yes, indeed. Focus.

[kcr]

73. Exaggerating the incidences of false rape claims are what make it really difficult

for people who have been raped.

[uppityperson]

75. Indeed. I never prosecuted mine as it was a time when

I would not have been believed.

False accusations are blown up into "don't believe anyone" and that is the really big problem.

[salin]

76. This.

When it occurs - it should be prosecuted. It damages the falsely accused - in irreparable ways (not the same as an actual rape - but also life altering).

And it damages those who are raped (per the not reporting for fear of this accusation - and those who report, but are stymied and not believed because of instances of false report.)

The residual issue is the "don't believe anyone" as you state.

[ncjustice80]

81. Thia article reads like a bunch MRA crap. Trashing this thread.

[joeybee12]

3. knr

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. "Definitely" and "On a case-by-case basis, obviously, but almost certainly not as a social problem".

Yes, false accusations of rape do exist.

Yes, they are an extremely serious crime when they do happen*. I lost a great deal of respect for the UK pressure group "Women against Rape" for condemning the imprisonment of a woman who had lied to try and get a man jailed for rape.

No, they are almost certainly not a serious social problem. We don't have reliable data on how common they are, but it seems like the likely answer is "probably extremely rare".



*False reports of rape, by contrast, are not a serious matter at all. I think there is a massive line (between "slap on the wrist" and "long jail term&quot that is crossed at the point when you name an attacker or refrain from declaring that a suspect the police have in custody is innocent. Wasting police time does not matter all that much; getting someone jailed for rape matters immensely.

[liberalhistorian]

129. The UK case was especially

egregrious. She was a law student who failed final exams. She knew that was academic and career suicide, so what did she do? She accused her own long-term boyfriend of raping her to explain her failure. And what was she really concerned about at her trial and sentencing? The fact that she wouldn't be able to become an attorney. I still cannot believe that women's group actually supported her, and with the reasoning that it would cheapen women and rape victims and make them less believable as well as embolden rapists. No, the woman herself did that and she's made it harder for legitimate rape victims.

My son was the victim of a false accusation several years ago. Fortunately, it got straightened out but it was very traumatic for him and he's still nervous around women now.

That being said, I do not believe that false accusations are a common problem, far from it. The real problem is rapists who are not held accountable, a "justice" system that treats rape victims horribly and often even refuses to prosecute, and a rape culture that blames the victim, making her less likely to come forward. And don't get me started on how too many colleges handle sexual assaults.

[hifiguy]

5. When I was clerking for a judge in 2005

we got an interesting case. During a divorce proceeding, a woman had filed an accusation that her husband, a high school teacher, had sexually abused a couple of his students. The charge was nothing more than a strategic maneuver and was later "withdrawn" after the woman received custody of the kids. In a separate proceeding before my judge the husband sued the wife for slander and libel. Unfortunately there is an absolute privilege that attaches to anything filed with a court and his suit had to be dismissed. He was very angry about it and so was I as the guy had been done a severe injustice.

Though it is rare, don't try to tell me shit like this does not ever happen.

[Agschmid]

6. Thats really bad.

[hifiguy]

86. I am sure that some DUers are

Perfectly OK with it. The man lost, however unfairly. That is what counts for them.

[Ino]

97. Referring to your post about unfair accusations...

you throw one out yourself. Nice.

[hifiguy]

108. I have seen women who tried to commit

murder defended to the nth degree on DU. To wit, the psychopath who tried to murder Andy Warhol. That long-ago thread has doubtless been scrubbed within an inch of its existence to cover the tracks of the shitheads who defended, and justified, Valerie Solanas.

[Ino]

109. How convenient for you.

"66 million posts - not including those that have been methodically scrubbed/deleted from the site to cover tracks" and " That long-ago thread has doubtless been scrubbed within an inch of its existence to cover the tracks of the shitheads"

You can't find any posts because they've all been scrubbed to protect the posters, eh? Because somehow "they" just knew you would go looking for them years later? How convenient for you.

[seabeyond]

112. # 111. i gave him a link to the thread. he is more than welcome to factually call out us "shitheads"

instead of flinging accusations. doubtful, but the OP is there for anyone to point the finger at us "shitheads".

[Ino]

145. He shouldn't have to back up his accusations.

Everyone knows that women. are. dirty.

[seabeyond]

111. here is the thread where the "shitheads" defended attempted murder per you. tell me, where anyone

defended attempted murder of the man.

no scrubbin involved. lots of false accusations from you hifi.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553813

[Calista241]

11. When false rape claims do happen

I believe they most likely happen in a case like this. Where one party sees advantage in a claim of rape, like in custody or libel or something.

For instance, a picture of Jerry Jones just came out where he's got his arms around a stripper and they're posing for a picture. Well, lo and behold, the picture goes public several years after the fact. After initially denying anything sexual happened and praising Jerry's character, she announces she's suing him for sexual assault.

[Sherman A1]

15. Divorces

tend to bring out all sorts of "interesting" things in people's characters as I am certain you are aware.

I was once told "you never really know someone until you go through a divorce with them".

Your story is not at all a surprise.

[Agschmid]

19. Yup. They do.

[Eleanors38]

84. Same happened in Texas some 15 yrs. ago. I knew the victim...

whose wife conspired with another woman to accuse the husband of molestation his own kids in a divorce. Investigators were suspicious, and delved deeper. The woman friend finally spilled the beans. No charges, but the father got custody, the house, and all assets. He was scared shitless for a while.

[hifiguy]

85. Yet there are people here on DU

who will deny, or even worse, justify, such things, and deny forever that this can happen regardless of the extrinsic evidence presented to the contrary. Which is sickening. Living in a bubble of idiot ideology will do that to you.

[seabeyond]

90. link to ONE person that has ever in the history of du, denied this could happen. link to one person

[hifiguy]

93. If you think I am going to waste my time searching

66 million posts - not including those that have been methodically scrubbed/deleted from the site to cover tracks - searching for something I know I have seen, you are nuts. Byeeee.

[seabeyond]

94. no one in the history of du has ever said, false claims never happened. that is the reality.

you threw out an outrageous accusation you cannot back up

[Tuesday Afternoon]

141. wow

[MattBaggins]

201. Back that claim up

You are maligning DUers with zero evidence.

You should consider a self delete and an apology

[SomethingFishy]

95. Same thing happened to me, except it was her mom that saved me...

I went through arrests, jail, courts and lawyers on my ex-wife's word alone that I was abusive to my kids. Her mom, who had lived with us at the time, stood up for me in court, otherwise I'd probably be in jail.

[msanthrope]

92. Yeah...I stopped doing family law because of shit like that. Divorce is a dirty

business.

[gollygee]

106. I think that's probably much more common than false rape accusations

That wasn't a case of someone claiming he raped her, that was a case of the wife claiming he raped a third party, which isn't what this article was about. I think what you're talking about probably happens more often. I know of a case where that happened as well.

[hifiguy]

107. You're likely right.

Divorces can get brutally ugly.

[dickthegrouch]

7. Lying is a part of US culture

When the so-called supreme court condones lying, and almost the entire M$M bases its political reporting on lies which even go unchallenged, the lie is a part of the culture.

I don't understand how Justice can exist without completely outlawing the lie. One swears to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth in court, but there is almost no consequence any longer for failing to comply with one's own oath. There is a growing group of people who seem to think it's OK if you don't get caught, and they have no shame when they are caught.

Someone very close to me suffered a false sexual allegation and it substantially disrupted their life for about 4 years before the truth came out. I have zero sympathy for people who make false allegations.

[cali]

9. lying is part of human nature. always has been. everyone lies.

outlawing lying? Jaysus. there's a really crappy idea.

[merrily]

79. In some cultures, lying is considered more polite in some circumstances.

I don't mean only lying to questions like "Don't I look like death warmed over today?"

Rather, it's consider polite to avoid telling people ANYthing they'd probably rather not hear. Like telling them it's about to rain, when it clearly is about to rain--unless they actually want the rain. Then you tell them you think it's about to rain, even though you know it's the middle of drought season.

[cali]

8. my reflexive reaction to this (before reading the piece) was to bristle

but it's actually a fairly thoughtful piece that makes some good points. I have a few quibbles; I think the author overstates some things- like this broad statement: "feminists have been creating their own counter-myth: that of the woman who never lies.". And the tone of the piece doesn't sit quite right with me.

The author, despite seemingly being from the right, does make some points worth considering.

[Agschmid]

10. I felt exactly the same way...

I saw the title and said "Oh this is going to be some bullish*t" but after reading the article I feel that it does make some valid points, however some over generalizations do exist.

It's certainly worth the read.

[cali]

13. thanks for posting it, Agschmid

It's good to post things that challenge us.

[uppityperson]

71. I have to admit that was my first thought, but then saw it was you who had posted it so gave

it a read.

[Agschmid]

74. Glad I have some credibility...

[bluestateguy]

12. Duke lacrosse case

and we had some posters at DU who continued to believe and defend Crystal Mangum and Mike Nifong even after the four players were proven innocent.

False allegations of any crime are rare in the grand scheme of things, but that is little comfort to the people who end up being victimized by it.

[hifiguy]

16. The most interesting thing about the Duke case

was that the players were pronounced and proven to be completely innocent, not "not guilty." That is a very rare thing indeed in American law.

[LanternWaste]

22. I don't think informal discussions on a web-site have quite the power in American jurisprudence you

I don't think informal discussions on a web-site have quite the powerful influence on American jurisprudence you seem to believe they do...

And if by chance, the discussion to influence court cases, that too, must be a "very rare thing indeed in American law..."

[hifiguy]

24. My point was that the Duke players

were exonerated by the NC legal system as completely as it is possible to be exonerated. The prosecutor was disbarred for malfeasance and the complainant should have been jailed for perjury/making false statements to police if she in fact wasn't. That is a resounding vindication for the young men who were falsely accused.

Things like that do not happen often in the US legal system, in which I have practiced as an attorney and served as a judicial law clerk for three years.

[BronxBoy]

49. Thank You!!!!!!

I always laugh to myself when people point to the Duke lacrosse case as the ultimate example of judicial misconduct. The system WORKED for them.

Almost every week, we are treated to a story of wrongfully accused persons (usually Black) being released after fuck DECADES in prison. Yet somehow 4 White boys become some peoples example of wrongful prosecution and allegations.

Like the Ferguson case, for some people the issue isn't important if the victims are Black

[BronxBoy]

47. Yes it was terrible....

Lucky thing they didn't go to jail for decades as many Black men have done.

[stevenleser]

14. I think we should all try to restrain ourselves when someone is accused of ANYTHING to not pronounce

judgement until the issue has been investigated.

I have trouble with this myself, but the fact is an accusation is only just that and it should not be treated as conclusive evidence of guilt.

Constitutionally, it is not in our values to pronounce someone guilty without due process.

[cali]

17. In general, I agree with you, but sometime things are clear cut- think the vid of Rice

[pnwmom]

21. The Rice case is the exception. When you see it with your own eyes . . . n/t

[Agschmid]

18. That's an incredibly hard thing to do, but it would be a positive step.

[LittleBlue]

20. Same here. I was a teen when Richard Jewell was accused of being

the Centennial Park bomber. The media crucified him even though he was only trying to help.

It was an early lesson for me why we have presumption of innocence.

[LanternWaste]

23. As informal speculation on a discussion board holds no weight in American law...

"Constitutionally, it is not in our values to pronounce someone guilty without due process..."

As informal speculation on a discussion board holds no weight in American law, due process, the jurists or the sentencing of guilt or innocence, I'm missing the bit where we actual make these judicial pronouncements rather than benign discussions.

[stevenleser]

25. You attempt to raise that point a lot. But no one is suggesting otherwise. nt

[stevil]

43. You can say that again.

You can say that again.

[geek tragedy]

26. Rw anti-feminist author slays straw man.

The plural of anecdotes is not data.

I await her next piece on the 'serious' problem of anti-white racism.

Many, many, many times more men get away with rape than are wrongfully accused.

[Bonx]

29. "Many, many, many times more men get away with rape than are wrongfully accused"

I guess we can ignore it when they are wrongfully accused.
Whew, I feel better already.

[geek tragedy]

30. Not all problems are equally important.

The problem of false rape claims is exponentially less important than that of rape and how often it is the victim not the perp who gets blamed.

[Bonx]

33. Individuals have problems

Like this guy who lives (whoops, 'lived') near me: http://www.c-ville.com/an-innocent-man-mark-weiner-case-sparks-legal-furor-as-claims-of-a-wrongful-conviction-precede-sentencing/

[geek tragedy]

35. Not every individual's problem is a serious one

for society as a whole.

Black-on-white bigotry does exist and some white people die as a result. Doesn't make that a serious problem for society.

[Bonx]

40. I'm glad we have DU experts

as arbiters of what problems are serious.

[geek tragedy]

42. We obviously see what counts as important to you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025379516#post5

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025104669#post12

[Bonx]

59. What's that ?

[geek tragedy]

63. You thought Zimmerman was innocent, yes? nt

[Bonx]

65. That's what you think is important to me ?

Odd sidetrack.

Do you typically discuss a topic by desperately searching another's posting history ?

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. Jury results, FWIW:

On Fri Sep 19, 2014, 06:36 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

We obviously see what counts as important to you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5560447

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Callout, not allowed by the DU TOS. If this poster feels the person they are replying to is a troll they should alert MIRT or admin. This type of post is NOT the right way to do it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 19, 2014, 06:48 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is nothing about callouts in the TOS. The poster does not say the person is a troll; they want people to know the values of the person. Please check the TOS before invoking them next time, alerter - they are here: www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is a call out

I'm #4; I really don't like people making claims about 'call-outs' and DU 'rules' - especially when it's specifically claimed that the TOS don't allow them. That's not true. Some people may consider that 'Community Standards' don't allow them, but the point of CS is that it's a subjective interpretation by each juror of what they think the DU community's standards are - which are not listed anywhere.

[geek tragedy]

87. People vote to hide or kept based on their

own motives, not the TOS.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

117. "Widespread" is a often a good proxy for "serious".

It's an objective, not a subjective, property.

And false accusations of rape are much, much rarer than, for example rapes.

[cali]

51. NO ONE said it was equally important. that doesn't make it inconsequential.

and the author most certainly did not say it was as important. In fact, she said clearly it was not.

I don't think you know what a straw man is.

[geek tragedy]

53. Her article is combatting the straw feminists

who claim people never lie about being a victim of rape.

She then rattles off anecdotes as if they prove something.

[Agschmid]

61. That's one sentence in the entire article, and it really doesn't say that.

I don't even know how you got that...

[geek tragedy]

62. Other than proving what everyone acknowledges

what does this article achieve?

[Agschmid]

64. Does an article need to achieve something?

I thought it was an interesting read, I posted it. I do that sometimes on this discussion board.

[pintobean]

66. And it's generating discussion.

[pintobean]

58. .

[mercuryblues]

209. It

as been studied. Somewhere between 2 + 10% of rape accusations are considered false.

In many of the claims the person does not name or pick out someone in a lineup. Another thing in those reports, not all of the false claims are made by women. In some instances family members or friends go to the police to make a report. As far as the ruining men's lives because of false accusations... Guess what people miss..... these reports never result in an arrest or trial. People also confuse and conflate false rape claims with falsely accused of rape. You know where a woman was actually raped and the wrong man accused. Thank the Goddess for DNA, that scenario is becoming rarer.

You are right she built up a straw man to slay. Which is why she had to use a blog post to make the claim and not actual data.

So as rare as actual false claims of rape are and even rarer that a man is accused, arrested and tried; why is it that people so easily do not believe the victim from the start?

[alp227]

27. The author, Cathy Young, is a right winger.

She promotes this "false accusations" or should i call it "b*tches be lyin'" crap all the time.

http://feministing.com/2012/01/20/anti-feminist-victim-blamer-in-my-own-backyard/

http://community.feministing.com/2009/03/20/the_miseducation_of_cathy_youn/

[leftstreet]

32. Eeeeww! n/t

[alp227]

38. Jury narrowly kept this.

Mail Message
On Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:14 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Crying Rape - Rape False rape accusations exist, and they are a serious problem.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025559594

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Of course people lie. That being said, the author of this article is right winger Cathy Young. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Young

http://feministing.com/2012/01/20/anti-feminist-victim-blamer-in-my-own-backyard/

http://community.feministing.com/2009/03/20/the_miseducation_of_cathy_youn/

Right wing propaganda is generally not welcome here...there are 1000s of other places online to repost this garbage. If this thread explicitly called for something like "debunk this" I'd not have alerted this. But I'd alert on any uncritical posting of a right winger's article like this one, just like if the article were from other right wingers Michelle Malkin, Brent Bozell, anyone who writes for Townhall.com, etc.

And playing the "false accusations" card is a misogynistic trope that defames women, anyway.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:22 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree that we don't need right-wing crap here. I'm sure there are articles out there that discuss this topic from less offensive sources.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The very first thing I saw when I clicked on this article was 'False accusations of rape are rare, but we should stop pretending they don’t exist.' That's NOT a misogynistic trope that defames women. The DUer who posted the OP also makes it clear in the thread that they believe rape accusations are rare. Also, many OPs from RW sources are posted at DU. This alert is a frivolous one, imo.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The original poster gives no opinion on the issue. And yes, the opinion of the article is disgusting. However, I interpret this as a "need to know" post.

Information about our enemies does not warrant an alert.

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerting member should take their alert and make it a reply.
DU is a discussion board, not a narrow minded liberal dogma posting only echo chamber.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I had a hard time deciding this one. I generally believe in being tough on RW sources. But I don't think the posted article in isolation quite reaches hideability - it is emphasizing the importance of remembering that a person is innocent till proven guilty, even if a serious and repellent crime is involved.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.

Thank you.

[davidpdx]

80. This is at least the second time in two days where something from a right-wing source

has been posted to push outrage. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025557950

[alp227]

99. to be fair, not all DUers know what Campus Reform or who Cathy Young is.

Most DUers know who Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Michele Bachmann, or other right wingers are. But not the more obscure names like Cathy Young, Thomas Sowell, or others who specialize more in scholarship rather than mainstream punditry.

[davidpdx]

102. True

To be honest I didn't either, but looked it up. I quickly just highlighted the term, right clicked my mouse and went down to where it said Google search. I just twinge a bit when people start repeating that kind of stuff on here.

[Thinkingabout]

31. Rape is a serious issue, don't condone false accusations. On the other hand there are lots of rapes

Which occur and never reported and many who are accused lie and claim sex was consensual so let's say there is lying on both sides. But true a false accusation should not go unpunished either.

[Adam051188]

34. in the last one hundred years....

....tens of thousands of years of societal evolution have been upended and almost every role has been redrawn in some manner because of technology.

how well we cope with these changes as individuals largely rests on our perceived societal pressures and expectations.

to investigate how different forms of governance and economics affect the outcomes of these conflicting influences you can get statistics from different countries regarding things like divorce rates, domestic violence, etc.

in the u.s. the situation we have currently is one wherein the female is favored in almost every regard in the eyes of the law, but the male is favored in almost every regard economically. this is a recipe for conflict. the male has control economically, which is essentially absolute control, but the female has the trump card which she may use or abuse repeatedly at will if she so desires.

what we need is pay equality legislation and to do away with...god a whole lot of notions the courts have regarding well...everything to do with domestic matters. if you don't want to hire women then don't hire them, but if you do you have to pay them equally.

[geek tragedy]

41. Wuh tuh fuh?

in the u.s. the situation we have currently is one wherein the female is favored in almost every regard in the eyes of the law,

Two words: hobby lobby.

but the female has the trump card which she may use or abuse repeatedly at will if she so desires.

MRA nonsense of the highest order.

if you don't want to hire women then don't hire them, but if you do you have to pay them equally.

Gender discrimination in hiring is illegal and rightfully so. Shocking to see people here say otherwise.

[Adam051188]

44. i dunno what MRA means....sry....

so construction companies that don't hire women are breaking the law?

hobby lobby was absurd and an example of how completely off the rails insane our countries government has become. not a good example in my eyes, but that's just me. almost all domestic custody issues and others of the sort are skewed in favor of the female.

[geek tragedy]

45. How many laws aimed at regulating your sexual organs

get passed?

Custody laws are gender-neutral.

[geek tragedy]

134. Enjoy your short stay here. nt

[KitSileya]

142. Seems like you were right.

Sometimes, I wish they would leave the messages just hidden, instead of auto-removing them. The people could see what we have to keep dealing with in every thread that concerns feminist issues, and women, and people of color. They think we should ignore these things, like they always say on threads about internet harassment and street harassment, but they don't realize how tiring it is.

[geek tragedy]

144. I hear ya, but denying them the chance to stain the site

with their excrement also has its benefits.

Jury vote was 2-5 to leave, fwiw.

[KitSileya]

148. Well, a majority to hide is better than many other jury verdicts.

The latest research on net trolls was very interesting. I think people underestimate the number of such cruel people, because they do not belong to the target group. These narcissists, psychopaths and sadists know exactly whom to troll, because they are also cowards. It's like men who cannot believe that street harassment is so ubiquitous, because they never see it.

And to tie this to the OP, many men are more worried about false rape accusations than actual rapes, because culture tells them that they are more likely to be falsely accused than be rape victims. That is patently untrue - men are far more likely to be raped than be accused of false rape (and in the latter case, they are more likely to be accused of a rape that actually happened, but by someone else, that that the victim invents a completely false rape.) 1 in every 33 men will be raped. 1 out of every 6 women. Rape happens a lot, to many, and many are repeat victims - rapists know the signs of previous victimization, and chooses victims accordingly. False rape accusations happen to very few men, and while it is bad for those it happens to, it cannot compare to the blight rape is on our society.

[KitSileya]

136. Women have plenty.

The Hobby Lobby case is about women's sexual organs - that women not get birth control covered so that she cannot use her sexual organs without fear of pregnancy.

All laws restricting access to abortion is about women's sexual organs, and the repercussions of the use of them.

[KitSileya]

138. You are wrong.

The Hobby Lobby decision denies health coverage to women that are necessary to their medical well-being. If you don't know female anatomy, I suggest you pick up your old high school biology textbook, but birth control has huge impact on women's sexual organs.

The same with abortion. It is the direct consequence of the use of said sexual organs that women get pregnant. It is therefore a law that restricts what women can do with their sexual organs if they do not want to risk their lives with a pregnancy.

[geek tragedy]

140. MIRT, clean up aisle 4. nt

[alp227]

82. "so construction companies that don't hire women are breaking the law?"

DUH! Ever hear of anti-discrimination laws?

[Jim Lane]

88. Employers may consider a job applicant's sex only in limited circumstances

If a construction company says, "We refuse to hire women," then, yes, it's breaking the law.

If a construction company says, "In this particular job we need people with enough upper-body strength to pick up one of these beams and carry it 50 feet, and most women can't do that, so we refuse to hire women," then, yes, it's breaking the law.

If a construction company says "In this particular job we need people with enough upper-body strength to pick up one of these beams and carry it 50 feet, so we'll test applicants at beam-carrying, and we refuse to hire anyone who can't pass the test," and no women pass the test so the company hires no women, then, no, it's not breaking the law (assuming that the job really does require that task). The issue is whether the employer is applying a bona fide occupational qualification (BFOQ).

There are a few jobs for which sex itself is a BFOQ. A theater company is allowed to refuse to hire a woman to play Hamlet (and is even allowed to refuse to hire a white of either sex to play Othello). In general, though, an employer can't use sex as a shortcut to assessing a BFOQ. It's probably true that, among the people who can carry that beam across the construction site, almost all are men -- but the employer must still give female applicants an equal opportunity to prove they can do the job.

[MattBaggins]

202. Custody cases are skewed in favor of the children

It isn't about the mother or the father

Courts are concerened with the needs of the children

[cali]

52. MRA garbage.

what a stinking pile of false claims.

[Adam051188]

54. i still don't know what mra means.....

[Agschmid]

60. MRA is "Men's Rights Advocate" and it's a shitty movement.

[kwassa]

69. MRA is very close to the NRA ....

just one letter away.

[YoungDemCA]

152. What. the. fuck?!

This is Democratic Underground., not MRA Underground.

http://www.democrats.org/issues/civil_rights
http://www.democrats.org/people/women

You seem to disagree, though.

[Peacetrain]

36. As a woman, when that very rare and I mean rare occasion occurs.. there should be punishment

fitting the crime

There are those individuals who will use the most heinous accusations... and when they do, what they do, hurts those who have to face their rapists in court etc..or those who sit in the shadows in fear..

I have no sympathy for the false accuser..when it is proven that someone made a false accusation, the only fair thing would be that the false accuser serve the sentence that was or would have been given the innocent individual.. (mental illness being the only caveat)..

[longship]

37. Alert results.

On Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Crying Rape - Rape False rape accusations exist, and they are a serious problem.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025559594

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Of course people lie. That being said, the author of this article is right winger Cathy Young. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Young

http://feministing.com/2012/01/20/anti-feminist-victim-blamer-in-my-own-backyard/

http://community.feministing.com/2009/03/20/the_miseducation_of_cathy_youn/

Right wing propaganda is generally not welcome here...there are 1000s of other places online to repost this garbage. If this thread explicitly called for something like "debunk this" I'd not have alerted this. But I'd alert on any uncritical posting of a right winger's article like this one, just like if the article were from other right wingers Michelle Malkin, Brent Bozell, anyone who writes for Townhall.com, etc.

And playing the "false accusations" card is a misogynistic trope that defames women, anyway.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:22 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree that we don't need right-wing crap here. I'm sure there are articles out there that discuss this topic from less offensive sources.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The very first thing I saw when I clicked on this article was 'False accusations of rape are rare, but we should stop pretending they don’t exist.' That's NOT a misogynistic trope that defames women. The DUer who posted the OP also makes it clear in the thread that they believe rape accusations are rare. Also, many OPs from RW sources are posted at DU. This alert is a frivolous one, imo.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The original poster gives no opinion on the issue. And yes, the opinion of the article is disgusting. However, I interpret this as a "need to know" post.

Information about our enemies does not warrant an alert.

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerting member should take their alert and make it a reply.
DU is a discussion board, not a narrow minded liberal dogma posting only echo chamber.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I had a hard time deciding this one. I generally believe in being tough on RW sources. But I don't think the posted article in isolation quite reaches hideability - it is emphasizing the importance of remembering that a person is innocent till proven guilty, even if a serious and repellent crime is involved.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was juror #3.

[Agschmid]

56. Thanks for posting these, I figured someone would alert.

Here is a fact:

Rape is a terrible, horrible crime and if convicted the perpetrator should be punished as such.

Just in case someone thought that I didn't feel that way.

[NYC_SKP]

39. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Crying Rape - Rape False rape accusations exist, and they are a serious problem.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025559594

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Of course people lie. That being said, the author of this article is right winger Cathy Young. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Young

http://feministing.com/2012/01/20/anti-feminist-victim-blamer-in-my-own-backyard/

http://community.feministing.com/2009/03/20/the_miseducation_of_cathy_youn/

Right wing propaganda is generally not welcome here...there are 1000s of other places online to repost this garbage. If this thread explicitly called for something like "debunk this" I'd not have alerted this. But I'd alert on any uncritical posting of a right winger's article like this one, just like if the article were from other right wingers Michelle Malkin, Brent Bozell, anyone who writes for Townhall.com, etc.

And playing the "false accusations" card is a misogynistic trope that defames women, anyway.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 19, 2014, 05:22 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree that we don't need right-wing crap here. I'm sure there are articles out there that discuss this topic from less offensive sources.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The very first thing I saw when I clicked on this article was 'False accusations of rape are rare, but we should stop pretending they don’t exist.' That's NOT a misogynistic trope that defames women. The DUer who posted the OP also makes it clear in the thread that they believe rape accusations are rare. Also, many OPs from RW sources are posted at DU. This alert is a frivolous one, imo.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The original poster gives no opinion on the issue. And yes, the opinion of the article is disgusting. However, I interpret this as a "need to know" post.

Information about our enemies does not warrant an alert.

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerting member should take their alert and make it a reply.
DU is a discussion board, not a narrow minded liberal dogma posting only echo chamber.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I had a hard time deciding this one. I generally believe in being tough on RW sources. But I don't think the posted article in isolation quite reaches hideability - it is emphasizing the importance of remembering that a person is innocent till proven guilty, even if a serious and repellent crime is involved.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[belcffub]

48. My wife's cousin...

years before I meet my wife her cousin murdered a man his girlfriend accused of raping her... Its my understanding she recanted right after... he got 10 years and she went free...

[leeroysphitz]

72. John Wesley Hardin Once Shot a Man for Snoring Too Loud. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

77. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard, not a code of conduct for society at large

Nobody in the feminist movement is arguing that a defendant accused of rape should not be innocent until prove guilty in a court of law. They are arguing that if a woman tells you she was raped, your first instinct should be to believe her just as you would if she told you she was a victim of any other crime.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

116. That isn't actually true, unfortunately.

"Nobody in the feminist movement is arguing that a defendant accused of rape should not be innocent until prove guilty in a court of law."

The opinion that an accusation of rape should be sufficient to warrant e.g. suspension or expulsion from university even without a conviction is not that rare.

[seabeyond]

122. to actually have an investigation is rare. see the correlation? do you think maybe there is more

to this, and maybe you do not state the actual position of feminists?

how about.

have a damn investigation. by the fuckin police. as a criminal matter. and go from there

do you think MAYBE that may be a more accurate position of feminists and women as a whole, and a great many men?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

125. I that you may have read the subthread you're replying to too quickly.

The poster I was replying to suggested that

"Nobody in the feminist movement is arguing that a defendant accused of rape should not be innocent until prove guilty in a court of law."

I then pointed out that this was not in fact the case, and that there are people in the feminist movement arguing that.



Your response appears to be a non-sequitur, I'm afraid. I don't know what two things you're saying there is a correlation between, or what "this" you think there is more to, so I'm afraid I can't answer those questions without further clarification.

To answer your question about "stating the position of feminists": I am quite sure that there are feminists who do not agree with the position I set out; I am one of them. I am pretty sure that they're a large majority. But my statement was made in response to "nobody in the feminist movement thinks"; and there are some feminists who do in fact think that.

I also don't know where your comments about "have a damn investigation" are coming from. Yes, accusations of rape should always be investigated by the police; very few people - feminist or otherwise - don't pay at least lip service to it, although people often seem to change their minds when it's their institution whose reputation stands to be tarnished. But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with my post.

The point I was making - and which I will make again - is that there is no unanimous position of feminists or of as a whole on this one; the majority of feminists, of women and of men agree that a defendant accused of rape should not be punished unless found guilty in a court of law; a small but sometimes vocal minority do not.



If what has irritated you is the belief that I was implying that "accusations of rape should be sufficient to justify suspension or expulsion from university" is a majority position among feminists, all I can say is that I wasn't, and I hope that on rereading that will become obvious.

[YoungDemCA]

155. Considering how extraordinary rare false accusations are...

...I tend to think that the institutions of society-like universities and the criminal justice system-are far too lenient on "alleged" rapists, or at least, don't really want to investigate-much less prosecute-incidents of rape.

Why do you think that so many rapes go unreported? Gee, couldn't it be that our society is far more worried about the reputations of the men (and let's be honest, it is mostly men) who get accused of rape, than the women (and some men, yes) who are victimized by sexual predators?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

160. I can think of three obvious factors, and I'm sure there are more:

Police insensitivity, being raped being traumatic, and jury trials.

1) For whatever reasons - and I think the one you give is almost certainly a part, but only a part, of it - police forces in a lot of places don't do a very good job of not making reporting a rape more traumatic and embarrassing than it needs to be. This one should be easy to fix - for starters, there's massive variation between police forces; enforced sharing and adoption of best practices would improve things a lot without even needing to come up with any new approaches.

2) Being raped is traumatic; a lot of victims just what to put it behind them and move on, without being repeatedly reminded of it. Also, a lot of rape victims don't want their friends and family to know they've been raped. I don't think this one could be fixed completely, but it could possibly be improved somewhat in the long term.

3) If you accuse someone of raping you, you're not going to justice unless a jury convicts. In many cases, that means standing up in court while a trained professional tries their best to make you look like a liar to the jury, and unless there's enough evidence to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you're not - which, unfortunately, in many cases there isn't - then you're not going to get it even then. This would be easy to "fix", by weakening the right to jury trial and the presumption of innocence, but I would fight tooth and nail against any attempt to do so.

[Hippo_Tron]

165. Okay wait, let me get this straight...

You seriously think it's a common feminist argument that a someone should be able to walk into the Dean's office and say "I was raped by so and so" and so and so should be automatically suspended or expelled with no investigation or disciplinary hearing?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

166. No, I don't. If I had thought that, I would have said it. N.T.

[Hippo_Tron]

167. Okay, you said...

The opinion that an accusation of rape should be sufficient to warrant e.g. suspension or expulsion from university even without a conviction is not that rare.

Are you saying that it's a common feminist position that a criminal conviction in a court of law shouldn't be required for a university punishment such as suspension or expulsion?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

174. Yes, that I am saying.

Although by common, I don't mean "majority", just "non-trivial minority on DU"; in society at large I suspect it's much rarer.

But if you look through past threads on DU, you will find e.g. threads about women being forced to choose between continuing to take classes alongside men who, they say, have raped them or to drop the class, in which posters express the opinion that it should be the man removed from the class and/or university, at least temporarily, even without a conviction.

[Hippo_Tron]

78. Also, deliberately takes a quote out of context...

Cathy Young writes...

After Oberst dropped the suit, Bustle’s Caroline Pate praised his decision and referred to the saga as “a roller-coaster for both parties”—treating the false accuser and the wrongly accused as morally equivalent—and called the revelation of Oberst’s innocence “crushingly disappointing.

From the actual piece by Caroline Pate...

It’s been quite a roller-coaster for both parties. The news that Faircloth’s accusations are false is crushingly disappointing. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: false rape accusations are incredibly harmful to rape victims. They make it easier for real rape victims to be disbelieved. And having such a high-profile case of a false rape accusation only gives more ammunition to those who want to discredit all rape victims.

If Cathy Young actually read that to mean that Caroline Pate is disappointed that Oberst is innocent, rather than she's disappointed that Faircloth would make false rape accusations against Oberst, then she's a fucking idiot or a fucking liar.

[gollygee]

83. There are false accusations for all crimes

but for some reason, people don't call it "crying robbery" when someone makes a false robbery accusation. Same with other crimes. "Crying embezzlement." "Crying assault." "Crying shoplifting."

I hate that phrase because it makes us look at rape accusations as less likely to be true than accusations of other crimes.

[Jim Lane]

89. The difference is that rape cases more often turn on he said - she said.

In many of these prosecutions, it's undisputed that this man had sex with this woman. The issue is whether she consented. Unless someone happened to leave a tape recorder on, there's usually a lack of objective evidence concerning the issue of consent.

The consequence is that, compared with the other crimes you mention, rape lends itself more readily to false accusations and to false denials.

[gollygee]

91. No, it's less easily proven

but that doesn't mean there are more false accusations. And that doesn't explain why we use dismissive languge like "crying rape."

[Luminous Animal]

147. Agreed.

[treestar]

96. Nobody has a motive for it, unless it's a rich guy

Feminism has at least helped even things out and the idea the woman might be telling the truth even be considered. This concern is over nothing.

[Major Nikon]

98. There are all sorts of motives

Revenge, leverage, shame, among many others. This woman fabricated a rape story because she was late for curfew:

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/home/2853678-181/man-held-in-reported-el#page=0

[treestar]

100. Pre-feminism those were all perhaps motives

women had to make up something if they dared to have sex outside the conventional norms. That could have led to such a thing.

And then this false charge is the first line of defense.

So the problem was before that no one would take the women seriously. Now that's better. But it is still not true that women are instantly believed.

[Major Nikon]

101. The specific example I gave you happened less than 2 months ago

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "pre-feminism", but the other examples have little to nothing to do with feminism and if anything I would expect false reports to be exacerbated by being taken more seriously.

Rape is just not that much different than other crimes when it comes to false reports. People do it for all sorts of self serving reasons.

[treestar]

103. I'm surprised at that

Before the feminists of the 70s say. When the values of the right wing were in effect. Women were always questioned and assumed to be falsely accusing then. Greater awareness has come about since and men do not get away with it as much as they did before. Now the woman has a chance to be believed.

False charges of other crimes are rarely asserted.

[Major Nikon]

105. I haven't seen data that proves false charges of rape are higher than any other violent crime

I don't think the false reporting rate is or ever has been as high as some suggest. However, I think it's probably safe to assume if the reporting rate for rape goes up, the false reporting rate will follow.

[Bjorn Against]

127. No Pate never said that, the right-wing author of the article in the OP misrepresented her words

Hippotron posted Pate's words above, here is what she actually said...

It’s been quite a roller-coaster for both parties. The news that Faircloth’s accusations are false is crushingly disappointing. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: false rape accusations are incredibly harmful to rape victims. They make it easier for real rape victims to be disbelieved. And having such a high-profile case of a false rape accusation only gives more ammunition to those who want to discredit all rape victims.

As you can see Pate's actual words say something very different than what Cathy Young presents them as saying, that is why right-wing anti-feminist trash should not be posted on this site because right-wingers lie in order to misrepresent people all the time.

[Bjorn Against]

162. Oh Bullshit, anyone who reads the sentence in context should be able to comprehend it

Read these words again, I have bolded the part that clearly states what she meant to make it easy for you...

It’s been quite a roller-coaster for both parties. The news that Faircloth’s accusations are false is crushingly disappointing. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: false rape accusations are incredibly harmful to rape victims. They make it easier for real rape victims to be disbelieved. And having such a high-profile case of a false rape accusation only gives more ammunition to those who want to discredit all rape victims.

That sentence I bolded makes it very clear to anyone with more than two brain cells what she meant, the only way misogynists can pretend otherwise is by taking the one sentence out of context and pretending the sentence that follows it does not exist.

[Bjorn Against]

170. Where did I ever suggest Conor Oberst wasn't a victim?

I am a fan of Bright Eyes, I certainly am not happy that he was falsely accused. It is quite clear that Pate is not happy about it either if you read her full statement rather than taking her words out of context.

The columnist who said something stupid was the one in the OP who took another columnists quote out of context and misrepresented it.

You can defend the right-wing columnist who takes words out of context to deliberately misrepresent a person's position all you want, but that says a lot more about you than it does about Pate.

[Bjorn Against]

172. Pate never falsely accused anyone of commiting a crime

You are backing up a right-wing liar who deliberately misrepresented the words of a feminist. Pate never accused Oberst of rape and just because someone else did that does not excuse lying about what she said.

[Bjorn Against]

175. You made a post which misrepresented Pate's words, I responded

This subthread started when you falsely stated this...

Caroline Pate felt it was "disappointing" that Conor Oberst didn't, actually, rape that woman?

that's some serious right there.

I provided the actual quote from Caroline Pate and it did not say anything remotely like what you claimed it said.

This debate we are having is about Pate, a person who explicitly denounced the false accusation against Oberst. You feel the need to continue to lie about her however because you said this...

171. I don't know. Seems to me falsely accusing someone of committing a crime, is a crime too.

Or should be.

A fact which Caroline Pate seemed in an awful hurry to ignore.

Yet if you look at her actual words that have now been posted three times in this thread it is very clear that she did not ignore it, and you know very well she did not ignore it because her words were posted directly to you more than once.

Quit spreading a right wing smear.

[Bjorn Against]

177. As you damn well know she wrote more than one sentence

Once again here is what she said in context...

It’s been quite a roller-coaster for both parties. The news that Faircloth’s accusations are false is crushingly disappointing. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: false rape accusations are incredibly harmful to rape victims. They make it easier for real rape victims to be disbelieved. And having such a high-profile case of a false rape accusation only gives more ammunition to those who want to discredit all rape victims.

Deliberately taking words out of context as you have been doing in this thread is lying.

It is also a lie to say she did not denounce the false rape accusation, the words I bolded show very clearly that she did denounce it.

[Bjorn Against]

179. All she said that it was a roller coaster for both sides, she never said both sides were guilty

I am sure that Oberst would agree that it was a roller coaster for him, that does not mean he did anything wrong.

You obviously want to deliberately misrepresent Pate's words but saying it was a roller coaster for both sides is not the same as saying both sides are guilty.

[Bjorn Against]

182. She did not say "both sides have been through enough"

Once again you are misrepresenting her words, you clearly feel the need to find some way to take offense with her words so you take her out of context and deliberately misrepresent her position. All you have is lies.

[Bjorn Against]

186. Pate did acknowledge that Oberst was unfairly maligned.

Here is the narrative which I am posting now for the fourth time because you continue to misrepresent what it says.

It’s been quite a roller-coaster for both parties. The news that Faircloth’s accusations are false is crushingly disappointing. It’s been said before, but it bears repeating: false rape accusations are incredibly harmful to rape victims. They make it easier for real rape victims to be disbelieved. And having such a high-profile case of a false rape accusation only gives more ammunition to those who want to discredit all rape victims.

I don't see how acknowledging that someone was unfairly maligned interferes with the narrative of someone who already clearly acknowledges that a person who was unfairly maligned and strongly denounces the false rape accusation.

[Bjorn Against]

189. Ever hear of an emotional roller coaster?

You can pick apart her words all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you lied about what she said.

[Luminous Animal]

196. I think that government prosecutors should have brought charges against her.

I think that Oberst did the right thing, with all his power and money and access to powerfully moneyed lawyers, when he ceased to follow through with civil action.

What advantage would he have gotten if he had followed through? She was already poor. Put her in jail? Well, what I know about Bright Eyes, he's not a jailing kind of person. In fact, he an anti-jallng kind of person. And he is a feminist

[Luminous Animal]

200. Thank you for this discussion. You are an interesting person.One of the reasons why I stick around.

[Luminous Animal]

207. And I hope you understand that the Libertarian author cited in the OP really and truly lied...

in order to make her point. Flat out lied.

Knowing what I know about Oberst (through my daughter... a feminist and a fan of Conor, in part for his feminism) he would reject libertarian lies. And using what he went through to advance a shithead rightwing agenda.

[MattBaggins]

203. You know damn well the following sentences provide the context

[Luminous Animal]

143. I am surprised that you take Libertarian Cathy Young seriously.

[Luminous Animal]

150. Yes. And Caroline Pate did not say what Ms. Young claims she said.

Cathy Young, like most lying shithead right wing assholes, took that phrase out of context in order to twist it for her own lying shithead purposes.

[Luminous Animal]

153. What I do know that it is a right wing practice to take a sentence out of context

do pervert the entire message.

So looking forward to seeing you defend this vile and dishonest practice the next time Rush or Fox does this to one of our leading Dems.

Here's one example of Media Matters highlighting this when Rush cherry-picked Obama's comments on female genital mutilation.

Here is what the President said,

OBAMA: Now, I have to say there are some traditions that just have to be gotten rid of. And there's no excuse for them. You know, female genital mutilation, I'm sorry, I don't consider that a tradition worth hanging onto. I think that's a tradition that is barbaric and should be eliminated. Violence towards women, I don't care for that tradition. I'm not interested in it. It needs to be eliminated.

But Rush only quotes this line, "You know, female genital mutilation, I'm sorry, I don't consider that a tradition worth hanging onto.", and then "Limbaugh claimed Obama only halfheartedly stated, "'Female genital mutilation is not a tradition worth hanging onto,'" and implied Obama's statement didn't go far enough, claiming "he didn't condemn female genital mutilation."

Surely, the President should have known not to put such a crappy sentence out there. Right?

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/07/28/limbaugh-revises-obamas-remarks-to-cast-him-as/200226

[Luminous Animal]

159. I am addressing your false claim that Ms. Pate was disappointed that Oberst didn't rape someone...

and using a right wing smear job quote from the article as your source. Caroline Pate's full quote proves Cathy Young's dishonestly and reveals that you were hoodwinked into believing it. Much like Rush's dittoheads are hoodwinked into believing his cherry-picked and truncated quotes from leading Democrats.

Yes, this isn't about Rush. It is about Cathy Young's rightwing Libertarian lying shithead smear campaign against feminists and your lack of interest in owning up to your mistake.

[Luminous Animal]

183. That was funny.

[Luminous Animal]

194. My 24 year old daughter has been a Bright Eyes fan for a long time. When she read the accusation...

she was upset. And I advised her to settle down and not snap to judgment.

Unlike you. Who snapped to judgment using a false right wing smear to do so. And still won't retract.

You are catapulting a Libertarian right wing smear of a feminist because, you know, a feminist.

You would never, ever, promote a Libertarian, ever, unless that Libertarian flat out lies about feminists.

[Luminous Animal]

199. Nope. You flat out said this: " Caroline Pate felt it was "disappointing" that Conor Oberst didn't,

rape that woman". YOU said this when Caroline Pate said no such thing. Not even close.

[KitSileya]

110. They are a serious problem to the individuals so falsely accused,

but are false rape accusations a serious problem to society? A more serious problem than say, false murder charges, or false embezzlement charges, or false violence charges? Research shows that the number of false rape charges are on par with the number of other false accusations of any other crimes, 2-8%. So are false rape charges somehow much worse than being accused of murder? Of stealing?


And are they a more serious problem than the minimization of rape and abuse accusations? Are false rape accusations a bigger problem than the fact that 10 percent of all women under 20 will experience sexual abuse, including rape? Is it a greater problem than the fact that 1 out of every 6 women will experience sexual assault? 1 out of every 33 men? Is it a bigger problem than 25% of all college women experiencing rape or attempted rape - every school year?

[pintobean]

113. False murder charges?

Honest officer, he killed me.

[KitSileya]

114. Oh, honestly, you know exactly how someone may be falsely accused of murder.

But that you would rather make jokes and laugh about it says more about you than anything else.

[seabeyond]

115. +1. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

118. No, they aren't a serious problem.

The number of false rape allegations is significantly lower than the number of unreported sexual assaults. Various studies have shown that false allegations account for around three percent.



http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

[Donald Ian Rankin]

119. I've seen that infographic before; the problem with it is that it's completely made up.

It did the rounds a while back, before being debunked.

If you dig around on the web for information on it, you'll find out that the numbers in it were essentially made up out of thin air.

[Spider Jerusalem]

120. Except that pretty much every review of convictions carried out has come to the same conclusion.

That the number of demonstrably false allegations is no more than 2-4%.

[seabeyond]

121. +1. another point that came to mind, when looking at this issue. we talk about the 2-4%,

and how to the 2-4% that is not a insignificant number up against rape. i hear them. correct. reality.

vaccines harmfully effect a number of children. a very very small number of children. to those children, to those parents affected, it is personal. to all the rest of us, we say.... get the damn vaccine.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

123. Two responses to that:

1) That isn't actually true - that's a typical result, but I've seen anything from "less than 1%" to "almost 50%" quoted (although the latter is very much an outlier, and I believe there were some methodological issues there). But "pretty much every" is certainly not accurate here.

2) While we can calculate the ratio of reported rapes to prosecutions, convictions and demonstrably false reported rapes, the ratios of reported rapes to actually false accusations of rape and of unreported rapes to reports of rape are both very, very hard to gauge; there just isn't any solid data.

[Spider Jerusalem]

124. The fact remains...

that the number of false allegations is so low that one has to question the motivations of anyone who tries to pretend that false allegations of rape are as serious an issue as rapes that go unreported and unprosecuted (and when the 60% or more that go unreported are taken into account, that "false reporting" stat becomes very much less).

[Agschmid]

128. It certainly was not my intention to claim that by posting this article.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

146. honest and sincere question ...

what was your intention by posting this article ...?

to generate discussion?

to stimulate honest debate?

to enlighten DUers?

to produce educational conversation?

[Agschmid]

157. Generate discussion, which it has.

I knew the author was more RW in their leanings but I don't think that means it should not be posted. Discussion is a good thing and we can all learn from it.

[YoungDemCA]

158. "There just isn't any solid data"...Here's an idea.

Maybe we can actually listen to what women are experiencing every day-the fear, the threats, the being treated as less-than-human by men? Whether it be by strangers on the street, abusive partners, or someone who she thought she could trust?

Maybe the everyday experiences and perspectives of women actually matter. I know, I know-it's a novel thought...

And let's be honest and clear here: sexual violence, its prevalence, and the (lack of) reporting of acts of violence-sexual or not- against women, have everything to do with gender norms, misogyny, and sexism. Who has power, and who doesn't in society. That has real-life consequences for everyone.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

161. How will that result in solid data?

Leaving aside that what you have there is a bunch of high-sounding generalities, not specific proposals, it appears to be a complete non-sequitur. Listening to individual victims will not help you make accurate estimates of the incidence of rape in the USA, and while it may well accomplish other desirable things, that's not relevant to the point that you appear to be taking issue with.

[Luminous Animal]

163. I'm comfortable with the 2%-8% range based on global studies highlighted in the linked report below:

http://ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

[Donald Ian Rankin]

164. I think that's a fairly safe bet.

I'd be surprised if it weren't between 1% and 10%, probably towards the lower end of that.

One thing I would note is that I'm wary of here of extrapolating from one country to another - I suspect there could be considerable variance.

[seabeyond]

192. it is 2-3%. the up to 8% per both fbi "unfounded being included in the number

that is not false rape claim. that is a whole lot of reasons an investigation goes no further.

[Luminous Animal]

193. "that is a whole lot of reasons an investigation goes no further." Yep.

[Agschmid]

126. I think the graphic also has an issue because those two falsely accused people could also be in...

The jailed section, they aren't mutually exclusive.

That being said rape is wrong and anyone who does commit a rape should face the consequences.

[PeaceNikki]

130. Unreported rape is an even more serious problem.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

[seabeyond]

132. thank you. that went on my face book. so easy to follow. for everyone. nt