two cents about Scotland

[DonCoquixote]

First off, the fact that the Scots chose to resolves this with a vote instead of with Guns is something that makes them noteworthy and praiseworthy. Let's face it, many nations had to let things get to the point of bloodshed. The US revolution is obvious, but also Ireland, Palestine, Zimbabwe, and even the non-violent revolution in India. The fact that the Scots voted, and that England was willing to listen to that vote, is something to praise, especially because this was the same England that was willing to go to war with Argentina to keep the "Falkland Islands."

However, I think there is a lot to fear in the way the vote turned out. The people who did the mot to kill the "yes" notion were the bankers, who pretty much said "Do what we want, or we take the pound, and move all the jobs down south." It's the same crap their siblings do in the US, and not matter how many times we give in, they still do what they want.

Jon Oliver and the Guardian kept comparing this to a romantic comedy where the guy realizes he has been horrible begs the girlfriend to take him back at the last moment. Actually, the more fitting analogy would be the abusive husband who controls his wife with threats, and says "if you leave me, you will starve." There is nothing romantic about a relationship based on dominance and manipulation, even the kinky BDSM types play at the domination, but would never actually want to HURT their partner.

I also say that I am thoroughly disappointed by the EU. This should have been one of the finer hours of the EU, as they told Scotland "you do not need the pound, Europe is waiting for you, and the Euro is." This of course would have been a real sea change, as a UK les England would have to stop looking towards Washington and towards a more common future, especially if Scotland started to prosper, as former colonies tend to do once they break away from London. The EU would have been a true influence, a force for power, not dominated by Washington on one hand, and the hard wall of the BRICS. However, The EU got cold feet, namely because they knew the Basques, the Flemings, and others would have imitated. There was also likely the feeling in Berlin and France that if the UK went, their dominant position in the EU would have been questioned as well. As long as Berlin, London and Paris fight for control of the mike, and treat the rest of Europe like servants (i.e. Greece) they will never be the transformative power they think they are. Couple this with the fact that their attempt to take in the Ukraine with disastrous results, and you will have people that are overpowered by the Brics long before they get their act together.

I am also saddened that Obama backed the UK. Dammit Obama, you have the blood of Irish as well as of Africans in you, and both sides of your history should be sympathetic to those that are tried of being exploited for London. But of course, we need our partner in all things Imperial.

It6's not like I could nto see the valid reasons why someone would say no. However, what I fear is that those who want to say democracy is a joke will use this as a reason why we need good old violent revolution. I can see the Ted Ralls and Ahudrunti Roys sharpening their pencils, in the hopes they make people take up guns. There has been serious talk about whether Democracy itself is some relic to be disposed of, although, right after they say "another world is possible" they offer sketchy details on what is involved, except killing a lot of people. I still remember in his "Anti-American Manifesto" where Ted Rall blithely talks about how there may be "Stalinist purges" but that is the only way to affect change (as if he does not have dreams of standing Michael Moore and Rachel Maddow against the wall.)

If we are going to keep democracy, we are going to have to protect it against the fear that is it's enemy. There are a lot of people, many in the BRICS, many in the US, that are peddling the idea that democracy is just not worth the effort, and that we should embrace killing in the streets. The Scottish rejected that idea, and for that, the whole entire world needs to support them. If you do not want the lovers of violence to win the day, then we ALL have an obligation to support Scotland, who may, after the fine job we Yanks did in 2000 (sarcasm of course) be the people to prove Democracy can still work.

[djean111]

1. "But of course, we need our partner in all things Imperial." Well said.

I do wish Obama had kept his opinion to himself. But his reason was sadly illuminating.

[jberryhill]

6. He was directly asked, and nobody quotes the whole thing

He added words at the end to "it's their decision to make".

[underpants]

2. Man you got your monies worth out of those 2 cents

[n2doc]

3. I fail to see why the Euro is such a great thing

Seems like Germany is the only country doing well under it.

[jberryhill]

7. They don't use the Euro in the UK

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. And that's what the Yes campaign said, especially after the Greek etc. problems started

October 2009:

Divisions within the SNP about joining the Euro have been laid bare at the party's annual conference.

Delegates in Inverness threw out calls to dump the SNP's commitment to a referendum on Euro membership.
...
The debate heard views from those who favoured joining without a referendum, to those who wanted to keep the referendum proviso, while some argued that an independent Scotland should not join the Euro at all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8311435.stm

July 2011:

The argument over the currency for an independent Scotland used to be so simple. Back in the pre-crash days, when the euro was solid and Ireland – Scotland’s then-independent model of choice – was doing well, the picture seemed straightforward.
...
The pull of sterling has never been stronger. Given the weaknesses of the euro and the problems with the dollar, the pound is gaining supporters internationally on a daily basis.

But the euro still has its backers among Scottish nationalists. Indeed, there are many in the SNP who still believe in Scottish membership of the euro and who maintain – with some foundation – that the euro will not only survive but will come back stronger and more stable when the problems with Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Italy have been resolved.

But they also know that Scottish membership of the euro is a hard sell. Indeed, it is probably true that it has never been harder to sell the idea of Scottish membership of the euro to a sceptical Scottish population.

http://caledonianmercury.com/2011/07/27/euro-pound-or-groat-the-nationalist-dilemma-over-scottish-currency/0022729

April 2013:

SNP Westminster Treasury spokesperson Stewart Hosie MP has said there is “overwhelming support for Scotland to keep the pound” as evidenced by supportive comments from experts in politics, academia and the finance sector.
...
“Unlike George Osborne – who is putting the whole resources of the Treasury behind the No campaign’s efforts to stop Scotland voting Yes - a whole host of credible figures are in favour of Scotland keeping the pound post independence.

“Professor Alex Kemp from the University of Aberdeen has said during a House of Lords Evidence Session that Scotland keeping the pound would help the rest of the UK.

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/apr/overwhelming-support-scotland-keep-pound

The OP is wrong about the EU and the euro - the EU would have been happier with Scotland following the normal route for a new member - ie to have control of their own currency, to stabilise it against the euro, and then to join the euro. That would have given Spain and/or Italy less chance to object to Scottish membership - their beef was that a region that had separated from a member shouldn't get any of the special treatment that the member may have been given in negotiation (eg the right to not work towards membership of the euro).

[malaise]

4. Nice post - here's a good read from the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/guardian-view-scottish-independence-big-moment-demands-big-response

[Laelth]

5. k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t

-Laelth

[frazzled]

9. You act like this was some kind of liberation movement of something

That couldn't be farther from the truth. It was mainly about ... guess what, oil. This was about people still wanting to retain their royal family and their pound stirling but sort of, you know, keep the oil revenues to themselves.

[sibelian]

11. Errrr, no.

That is not the case.

[Nye Bevan]

10. The UK going to war over the Falklands was entirely consistent with democratic self-determination.

If the Falklanders voted in a referendum that they wanted to be Argentine, the UK would give up the Falklands in a heartbeat. But when pretty much 100% of the islands' population wants to remain British, when Argentina invaded them it was right for the UK to forcibly repel the Argentines.