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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnyone else irked at the way Texas wants to charge the man with ebola with a crime?
valerief
(53,235 posts)elleng
(130,947 posts)not 'Dallas' as a whole.
valerief
(53,235 posts)diabeticman
(3,121 posts)the US she wished it had happened to a state that wouldn't make the country look like such idiots.
With all the mess ups I am afraid of what we will hear about next.
marym625
(17,997 posts)diabeticman
(3,121 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)to the deadly virus? Who would not let them out, or move them to a clean apartment that was not contaminated with ebola?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)I've about had it up the fucking here with people teeing off on Dallas because there is an Ebola case there.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)that it was not handled correctly.
Holding people in a contaminated setting is very wrong, morally and probably legally. Sending the sick man away on his first visit to be in the community was not right either.
I hope other communities, and the Dallas one, look at what happened, change what they do to make sure this does not happen again.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for anyone to expect a first case not to be riddled with errors, is naive at best. and dallas did contain. and yes... everyone gets to learn, from this first experience. lucky everyone else.
elias7
(4,006 posts)As a medical person, I can say that your perspective is exactly how it works (in my experience). Those who are quick to condemn are not attuned to process.
We have been given info recently on Chikungunya, Enterovirus #68 and Ebola, as well as a recent Listeria outbreak. You keep a high index of suspicion for patients and stories that fall outside of expectations or are unusual and then expand your differential diagnosis. You educate yourself as to how to recognize the risk factors. Then you hope you are not so busy and overwhelmed on your shift that you can pay attention to things that just don't fit.
It seems a little strange to me that Ebola possibility was not picked up, but then again, I am in New Hampshire, and an African person with a fever would ring bells...
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Coming into the country saying he didn't have Ebola but later said he knew he had it. If true, charge him. As far as Dallas and Houston go, where are the Mayors? Don't they run the city? I am pleased that Perry is getting blamed but he is up in Austin. Aren't the Mayors running their cities? I find that interesting that nothing has been said by them.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Liberia can charge him if they want to.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I think I would rather be charged here, but hopefully he gets better and sta since he seems to have family here.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)on edit:
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2014/10/dallas-county-da-craig-watkins-exploring-charges-against-ebola-patient.html/
Dallas prosecutor is exploring whether he intentionally brought it to the states.
That's not the same thing as Texas wanting to charge him.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I've seen him at least twice.
elleng
(130,947 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Even his home country is going to prosecute him for his actions, should he survive.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)If he was honest, or honestly didn't know he was exposed, then there is no crime.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)LeftInTX
(25,364 posts)If he committed a crime, then it should be up to the fed govt because they handle visas etc. I haven't heard anything.
ETA: I read something from Ft. Worth paper. That is pretty low. Compared it to people who are intentionally spreading AIDS.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)It's complicated.
marym625
(17,997 posts)The question is, did he lie about it. If yes, then he should be. If no, he shouldn't be.
I want to know why the hospital released him. From what I have read, a family member contacted the CDC so I would assume he informed the er doctor of his travels and contact.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)death.
i have a huge problem with that.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)a permanent ban on further travel to the US are in order.
I don't see any need to keep him fed and housed here for years at taxpayer expense by prosecuting and imprisoning him.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)He and his family were (and some members of the family still) have been saying he was just coming for a visit. In the video of the interview with his half-brother I'd posted yesterday his half-brother said that one family member (a nephew?) had said that he was planning on looking for a job here. Visitors coming here on visitors visas are allowed to work in the US, and they can't stay permanently but have to go back to their home country I think it's by two months of being here. I never thought he had any intention of going back to Liberia once here especially now I find out his girlfriend is here.
Other than that, I agree that if he did intensionally lie either on the questionnaire to get on the plane out of Liberia or at the hospital then he should be deported. But if he overstayed a visitor's visa or got a job here he should be anyway.
I'm not getting why taxpayers would be footing the bill for his food and housing though. He either came on a visitor's visa in which he'd have to be dealing with his own food, housing, transportation, etc. or on a worker's visa where he'd still have to be dealing with his own food, housing, transportation, etc., but he'd have a job to be able to do it. If he lives he's already going to be on the hook for his medical bills unless he had some kind of traveler's medical insurance or if the Liberian government takes care of that (which they actually might) though the hospital will likely eat the cost given their mistake in letting him leave in the first place and pass that on to the rest of us since they'd hardly take it out of their profits.
FYI, I used a work with a woman from Canada that would come here to work under the table on visitor's visas, and she did it for a few years before being caught. She'd work for a couple of months (or whatever the time limit was until she had to go back to Canada) go back to Canada and immediately reapply for another visitor's visa and be back in about a month to work again, and on and on until she finally got caught. Of course, nothing happened to the bar we were working at. For six months of that time she even rented an apartment a couple of blocks from the club so she could just walk to work instead of staying in the nearest hostel where she would have had to taxi back and forth. It had nothing in it other than the luggage she brought with her... she slept on the floor with just a little pillow and always ate out.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Pregnant woman deceased with seizures = Ebola?? Then why have we been diagnosing it as eclampsia all these years?
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)where she was turned away due to overcrowding. Even if they thought when taking her to the hospital that it was just some pregnancy complication they certainly knew it was Ebola for being recognized as such if they first took her to a maternity ward and were then told to take her to the Ebola ward. Whatever the case, by the time they were turned away from the hospital they knew she had Ebola.
Mr. Duncan is not a stupid man. He's not some local ignorant villager that thinks illness is witchcraft or something. He had a good job, kept up with the news, knew he had to lie on the questionnaire to the question had he had any physical contact with someone who was ill or he wouldn't get out of the country, etc.
Of course he knew. So did the family members that took the woman to the hospital's Ebola ward and where she was turned away. Furthermore, they would never have taken her to the Ebola ward in the first place if they thought she just had some pregnancy complication... why on earth would they have done that knowing that doing so would mean she'd get it from the other infected Ebola patients in that ward? They either already knew when taking her to the hospital that it was Ebola or they found out at the hospital and were turned away.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... that EVERY clinic in Liberia is now an "ebola" clinic. So I'm not sure that will wash.
Here's the argument AGAINST his knowing he had ebola. If he knew, why would he have let the hospital discharge him? No, he would have told them with no equivocation as it would be a life and death issue at that point.
Officials are doing what officials do when they are embarassed by their blatant incompetence, they are deflecting the blame.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)He comes from a place with extraordinarily horrible government where he would expect to be arrested. And sure enough the Liberian government has said they want to prosecute him for his lying on the questionnaire in order to get on the plane. These countries are third world with horrible corruption, worse government, far worse police and far worse prisons. People from these places are naturally distrustful and even fearful.
No, not every hospital in Liberia is one big Ebola clinic. Mixing in Ebola patients with someone just having a baby or having a cut on their leg or broken arm or whatever from an accident or having a heart attack isn't happening where the pregnant woman Mr. Duncan helped to carry went. This was the John F. Kennedy hospital in Liberia. They even have a website:
http://www.hearttliberia.org/Home
It's not a few huts with thatched roofs for heaven's sake.
Apparently, they first took her to the maternity ward where she would certainly be recognized as having Ebola which would be why would have then took her to the Ebola ward or they took her directly to the Ebola ward. If they didn't know she had Ebola and first took her to the maternity ward they certainly would have learned it then and why they took her to the Ebola ward after. Either way, they would never have taken her to the Ebola ward at all if they still didn't know she had Ebola because they would never have allowed her to be put into the Ebola ward if they didn't think she had it and have her get infected with it by being in that ward.
Yes, there are some clinics that are just a few small buildings, but even the tent hospitals that Doctors Without Borders and other groups are setting up are only for those patients with Ebola symptoms though some places that are trying to do it on their own are putting the suspected non-symptomatic people in with the symptomatic patients guaranteeing that the suspected non-symptomatic people will become infected. This is not what happened in the case of Mr. Duncan helping the pregnant woman.
Of COURSE the Dallas hospital is at fault for not recognizing that in saying he was from Liberia meant that he might have Ebola, for diagnosing him as having some unknown flu-like virus, giving him antibiotics knowing that antibiotics don't do anything at all for any virus, etc. However, Mr. Duncan knowing he was possibly infected with the Ebola virus should have said so even though as I said in other posts I understand why he would not have - fear of what would happen to him legally if he admitted it.
He knew. There's no getting around the fact that he knew. It's why he lied on the questionnaire before being able to get on the plane out of Liberia because he knew if he didn't he wouldn't be allowed to get on the plane and would be stuck in Liberia. I can understand why he would have believed that a US hospital would be prepared and know what to do with a patient that was recently in a hot zone since that's what the media and officials have been assuring all along. But it wasn't until the incompetence of the Dallas hospital in being clueless from start to finish with him that we found out we're woefully incompetent and still woefully incompetent in how Dallas authorities have been handling the situation since.
Both the Dallas hospital and Mr. Duncan are to blame... the hospital for being so incompetent and him for not making it known that he had recently been in an Ebola hot zone, was in physical contact with an Ebola infected person and might be infected himself. He had every opportunity to do that on his first visit. The hospital in my view is more to blame for not recognizing what he had and sending him home, but he is responsible for knowing he might be infected and traveling here anyway.
I've said before that were I in his shoes I would have fought my way onto that plane to the US to get to a hospital not packed with Ebola patients (where he had up close personal knowledge of an Ebola patient being turned away) with modern medicine in a first world country. I would have lied like a rug on the questionnaire to get on the plane - you bet your ass I would. Once I got here though the second I got off the plane I would have gone straight to the first official looking person I saw and demand to be sent to isolation in a hospital having possibly been infected with Ebola, and please treat me. And I've also said that that's what I would have done because I grew up here, live here, and know that I wouldn't be arrested or murdered by a first world fucked up horrible government full of people that believe even now that Ebola is witchcraft or a government hoax. He has very different and very terrible experience living in Liberia, so I can understand his fear of being arrested, killed and going to a prison worse than anything close to what ours are like.
There's also the fact that he was examined by an American doctor in a modern American hospital and assumed that the doctor was correct that he only had some flu-like virus. Even us American's tend to believe what doctor's tell us is what's wrong with us, why wouldn't he? He very well might have left the hospital the first time thinking "Thank God the doctor knows that it's just some flu-like virus and not Ebola!!!" That doesn't change the fact that he knew he had physical contact with an Ebola patient and lied on the questionnaire to get on the plane out of Liberia.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)...which is at the same hospital, btw.
marym625
(17,997 posts)My error. Until just after I had posted that, I had only read he took a pregnant woman with Ebola to the clinic.
Now, there was no reason for the sarcasm. I have absolutely no problem admitting when I am wrong.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)That is pretty much the dregs of humanity.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)contaminated apartment for days and exposing them to infection?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)leaving the contaminated apartment.
I am not sure what your point is or how you got to it.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... He should be prosecuted and should be held responsible for the cost of much if this fiasco.
Someone yesterday posted speculation tgat he probably knew he had been exposed, looked around at the healthcare available in Liberia, and figured his chances of surviving were better in the US. If that or something close to that turns out to be the case, he should have deplaned and gone straight to a hospital and demanded quarantine. To go hang out with family and expose dozens of others to this virus is the very definition of criminal negligence. I'm sorry he's infected, and I hope he survives. But he's not a sympathetic figure in my mind.
longship
(40,416 posts)There is no crime here.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... Ill stand by my post IF the speculation proves to be sound.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)Stallion
(6,474 posts)who many of you may have seen on national shows dealing with the use of DNA to exonerate unprecedented numbers of convicted felons including many on Death Row. Just wanted to set the record straight
840high
(17,196 posts)Historic NY
(37,449 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)Unless someone has a link, this whole OP is bogus.
edit: I'll add the link myself.
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2014/10/dallas-county-da-craig-watkins-exploring-charges-against-ebola-patient.html/
It's a Dallas prosecutor that is exploring whether he intentionally brought it ti the sates.
That's not the same as Texas wanting to charge him.
The OP is misleading.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)The only circumstances under which I feel he could or should be charged would be if he came here, knowing he was infected, with the intention of infecting others. Who knows, maybe he watched American (semi) news and decided that he'd have a better change of survival here in the US.
Also... the negligence and astounding ineptitude that led to him being released, thereby potentially infecting others with the same illness. should be considered. So, I think that if he is charged, then the workers responsible for his release should also be charged.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)and probably would have forfeited the money if he canceled, he may have decided to gamble.. If he did have it, he would be more likely to survive in the US.
He will probably be deported immediately if he recovers, and Liberia will deal with him.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ebola? instead of merely saying he was from liberia. do you think that might have clued everyone in without having to put puzzle pieces together?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)NOT to somebody typing into a keyboard behind a plexiglass wall.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he did not simply tell the medical people he was around someone who died from ebola recently.
his family knew. he knew. the medical field did not know. this would be the point to clue them in.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I don't even think he knew he was exposed. His family says they thought the woman was having complications from being pregnant.
Mariana
(14,857 posts)based on speculation and rumours.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)If he did know coming over here was a brilliant decision and may help many others in the long run. If he didn't then it is simply karma coming to bite us for thinking those people didn't matter and that the disease was too far away to get us.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)However, if he did know his behavior was strange. Because I believe in that case he would have got off the plane and gone straight to a hospital.
2naSalit
(86,636 posts)I think he shouldn't be charged with anything. My reasoning being that, he may not have been "informed" enough about contagion to know whether he was at risk, we're talking about a place where there is not exactly the same level of public info getting out to everyone. And, If I were him and I thought I might be infected, I think I might try to get to the US to get better healthcare than where he was.
Can't blame him for that, we have different ways of understanding things based on our cozy world here in the US and it might be a different way of understanding how this all plays out if e were in his shoes.
I never had much of a genuine positive regard for much of what i have seen or know about Texas (been there many times over many years) and am not all that surprised that there were so many missed cues for those who should have been paying attention and for those who have authority to manage this issue but still dropped the ball... IMHO.
I hope the family will all be okay and that the guy who is ill manages to get better and not just to end up in jail. I think trying to charge him with a crime is stupid and counter-productive.
LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)He is either the dumbest/luckiest man alive, or he is a criminally negligent asshole that knew he had been exposed but was trying to avoid prosecution. I'm guess he's the latter.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)that says Texas is charging him with a crime.
I know Liberia has said it is charging him. Haven't heard Texas is.
on edit: Dallas prosecute is exploring the possibility based on intent to bring it to the states.
http://trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com/2014/10/dallas-county-da-craig-watkins-exploring-charges-against-ebola-patient.html/
Wanting to charge him is not the same thing.
Stardust
(3,894 posts)wouldn't come right out and say that they would prosecute, it was too early to speculate, yadda yadda. Sorry, I wasn't paying close attention so I can't be more specific. But I did get the impression that charges were on the table.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)and it's local from Dallas that states a Dallas prosecutor is exploring whether it was intentional.
That's a bit different than the OP.
Thanks for the info though.
herding cats
(19,564 posts)They haven't said anything that I've heard. What would they charge him with anyway? Being critically ill in their state, or what?
FWIW I'm pretty sure Liberia charging the man is a total CYA sort of thing on their part.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)We can't spend any money on containing the disease so let's just lock em up or deport them. Hell, we can't spend any money on putting the family in a safe quarantine, the home had to be donated by some wealthy person who felt compassion? And people on DU think the best course of action is to put the man in jail, even if he survives? That doesn't smack of the dumbest, most ignorant cruelty? I've read a lot of stupid shite on this site, I guess this just adds to it.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)In fact, I am surprised that nobody thought of it sooner since bringing it to a country that can afford to find a cure might be the only way for a poorer country to ever get one. He may one day be looked at as a hero by those in Africa.
I am appalled that the rest of the world has ignored the people dying during the epidemics in these regions just because it has been so far contained to Africa.
Even if we were stupid enough to think it would remain confined, there is no excuse for simply ignoring these people and their horrific deaths.
Just friggen put some money into finding a cure and help everyone out instead of funding asinine wars for a change.
newfie11
(8,159 posts)Would do the same thing in his position.
I sure as hell would. It's not right but if one finds themself in that predicament........
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I'd read that Liberia plans on prosecuting him for lying on the questionairre about having contact with anyone ill but hadn't read anything about Texas wanting to.
Are you sure you don't mean Liberia wanting to and not Texas?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)he lied to evade travel restrictions after exposure to a virus with a 50% mortality rate. The travel restrictions are in place for a reason. Violation of quarantine in the US is a Federal offence that carries a penalty of up to a year in prison; I don't really see this as being materially different.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm "irked" that we're continuing to endanger peoples' lives by expecting people not to lie on a form or pop an advil to get on an international flight, with that virus in their bloodstream.
There are other ways to get humanitarian aid in. There is no reason we should be allowing travel from those countries to the US until this is over.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)with anybody with Ebola, when in fact he had been helping people with Ebola. The woman who died of it was not the first person he had helped, she was the last, so even if he didn't know that she had Ebola, he knew he had helped others with it.
That was a crime.
This case shows how woefully unprepared we were, at a local, real level, to deal with it. It also highlights what future cases will require and will lead to changes. It shows regulations that need to be addressed (DOT laws prevented removal of the waste from the apartment) and isolation places set up to quarantine. Where were our famous FEMA camps in all this, anyway?
In the meantime, if I were that guy's girlfried/wife/exwife (I've seen her referred to as all of those), I'd want to sue his ass off. He knew he was exposed, and knowingly exposed her, his own children and her other children. He lied to her about his exposure, until he was puking his guts out all over her apartment.
Wtf kind of father/SO does that to their own child?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)is true? I have not heard this. I have heard his home country might press charges for lying to them. I have heard no such thing about Texas.
Why don't you offer up some context?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)It is Liberia that mentioned criminal charges, not Texas.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)with a crime because he lied at the airport when he was asked if he had any contact with anyone with ebola though.
Where did you read that Texas wanted to prosecute?
Saboburns
(2,807 posts)We charge people with crimes in this nation because we want to charge people with crimes. We like charging people with crimes. The public cry for more charging of crimes.
I am consistently amazed by the scope of the laws, and how many people are arrested. US citizens like it this way.
Freedom?!?
HA!!