No such thing as "Muslim countries" doing anything! They're all different! Like Christian countries

[kpete]

There's no such thing as "Muslim countries" doing anything! They're all different! Like Christian countries are all different. Don't you get it!?"
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/so-reza-aslan-might-as-well-be-isis.html

It's not a religion problem it's a species problem

by digby

There's an awful lot of talk these days about religions of peace vs religions of war and how some are intrinsically violent and others aren't. It's all nonsense. Right now, for a variety of reasons, Islam features some violent extremism on the fringe which happens to be in a part of the world where everyone has an interest. But you only have to look at history to see that all religions have their moments of violence.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2014/10/so-reza-aslan-might-as-well-be-isis.html

*****************

TRANSCRIPT:

Bill Maher vs. Ben Affleck On Islam: "Mafia That Will Fucking Kill You If You Say The Wrong Thing"

Bill Maher and Ben Affleck engaged in a heated debate over radical Islam and Islamophobia on Friday's broadcast of Real Time on HBO.

Aided by author Sam Harris, Maher contended radical Islamists are essentially a "mafia" that will kill you if you say or draw the wrong thing. Affleck argued that condemning a whole religion based on jihadists that make up a small fraction of Islam isn't fair.

New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof, who was also on the panel, said the criticism of Islam has "a tinge of how white racists talk about African-American and define blacks."

On last week's broadcast of Real Time, Maher went after Islam and argued "if we're giving no quarter to intolerance, shouldn't we be starting the mutilators and the honor killers?"

BEN AFFLECK: How about more than a billion people who aren't fanatical, who don't punch women, who just want to go to school, have some sandwiches, pray 5 times a day, and don't do any of the things you're saying of all Muslims. It's stereotyping.

SAM HARRIS, AUTHOR: I'm not saying all Muslims --

AFFLECK: Some of them do bad things and you're painting the whole religion with that broad brush.

MAHER: Wait, let's get down to who has the right answer here. A billion people, you say.

AFFLECK: A billion five.

MAHER: All these billion people don't hold these pernicious beliefs?

AFFLECK: They don't.

MAHER: That's just not true, Ben. That's just not true. You're trying to say that these few people, that's all the problem is, these few bad apples. The idea that someone should be killed if they leave the Islamic

AFFLECK: That's horrible.

MAHER: But you're saying the idea that someone should be killed if they leave the Islamic religion is just a few bad apples?

AFFLECK: The people who would actually believe in that you murder someone if they leave Islam is not the majority of Muslims at all...

SAM HARRIS: Just imagine you have some concentric circles. You have at the center, you have jihadists, these are people who wake up wanting to kill apostates, wanting to die trying. They believe in paradise, they believe in martyrdom. Outside of them, we have Islamists, these are people who are just as convinced of martyrdom and paradise and wanting to foist their religion on the rest of humanity but they want to work within the system. They're not going to blow themselves up on a bus. They want to change governments, they want to use democracy against itself. Those two circles arguably are 20% of the Muslim world.

BEN AFFLECK: What are you basing that research on?

HARRIS: There are a bunch of poll results that we can talk about. To give you one point of contact: 78% of British Muslims think that the Danish cartoonist should have been prosecuted. 78%. So, I'm being conservative when I roll this back to 20%. But outside of that circle you have conservative Muslims who can honestly look at ISIS and say that does not represent us, we're horrified by that but they hold views about human rights, and about women, and about homosexuals that are deeply troubling. So, these are not Islamists, they are not jihadists, but they often keep women and homosexuals immiserated in these cultures and we have to empower the true reformers in the Muslim world to change it. And lying about doctrine and this behavior is not going to do that...

MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIR: So having said that, even if that is true, statistically or otherwise, the key thing to recognize that I don't think is part of the argument but I think should be is that there are voices that are oftentimes raised in opposition to these jihadists and to these extreme acts but, guess what, they don't covered, they don't get exposed. And they're not on the same level platform that we see jihadists get.

BILL MAHER: One reason they don't get exposed is because they're afraid to speak out because it's the only religion that acts like the mafia that will fucking kill you if you say the wrong thing, draw the wrong picture or write the wrong book. There's a reason why Ayaan Hirsi Ali needs bodyguards 24/7...

AFFLECK: What is your solution? To condemn Islam? To do what? We've killed more Muslims than they've killed us by an awful lot. We've invaded more --

MAHER: I'm not for more dead Muslims.

AFFLECK: And somehow we're exempt from these things because they're not really a reflection of what we believe in. We did it by accident, that's why we invaded Iraq.

MAHER: We're not convincing anybody here.

AFFLECK: I'm simply telling you that I disagree with you.

MAHER: I understand, and we're obviously not convincing anybody here.

HARRIS: You don't understand my argument.

AFFLECK: Your argument is, "You know, black people, they shoot each other" --

MAHER: It's not! No, it's not. It's based on facts. I can show you a Pew poll of Egyptians. They are not outliers in the Muslims world. It's like 90% of them believe death is the appropriate response to leaving the religion. If 90% of Brazilians thought that death was the appropriate response to leaving Catholicism you would think it was a bigger deal.

AFFLECK: I would think it's a big deal no matter what.

MAHER: Okay, well, that's the facts.

AFFLECK: I wouldn't say it's all Brazilians, or I wouldn't say, "Well, Ted Bundy did this. God damn these gays, they're all trying to eat each other."

HARRIS: Let me just give you what you want. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don't take the faith siresly, who don't want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith.

AFFLECK: ISIS couldn't couldn't full a AA ballpark in Charleston, West Virginia and you want to make a career out of ISIS, ISIS, ISIS.

MAHER: No we're not. That's the opposite.

HARRIS: No, it's not just ISIS, it's all jihadists. It's a phenomenon of global jihad.

MAHER: I think that's the opposite of what we're doing.

AFFLECK: There is those things. There is ISIS, there is global jihadists. The question is the degree to which you're willing to say, because I've witnessed this behavior, which we all object to on part of these people, I'm willing to flatly condemn those of you I don't know and never met.

MAHER: They're not willing. This is based on reality.

HARRIS: It's not condemning people, it's ideas.

MAHER: It's based on reality, Ben. We're not take it up that in the Muslim world it is mainstream belief.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF: This is such a caricature of Indonesia, of Malaysia, of so much of the world. And this does have a tinge a little bit of how white racists talk about African-American and define blacks by --

MAHER: What you're saying is because they are a minority, we shouldn't criticize.

AFFLECK: It's not a minority, it's the second biggest religion in the world.

MAHER: Exactly, but you're treating them like a minority. I mean if Filipinos were capturing teenagers and sending them into white slavery, we would criticize that. We wouldn't say, oh, well, they're Filipinos.

AFFLECK: You would criticize the people who are doing it, not the Philippines. A Filipino kid who lives on the streets has nothing to do with that. These are different things.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/10/03/bill_maher_vs_ben_affleck_on_islam_mafia_that_will_fucking_kill_you_if_you_say_the_wrong_thing.html

[JaneyVee]

1. Bill Maher got owned by Ben Affleck on Real Time last night...

On this topic.

[Fred Sanders]

3. Absolutely. I think Bill is feeling the heat from fans on his Muslim tunnel vision, though good on

him for having Affleck on knowing what Ben would say, more or less.

[kpete]

4. thanks JaneyVee

very relevant to this conversation
so, I added the whole transcript to my post

[JaneyVee]

5. Thanks for posting this clip, I hadn't seen it.

I'm inclined to take the word of scholars like Reza over the word of a comedian like Bill.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. I'd say the exact opposite.

[grossproffit]

68. +1 Ben Affleck made a fool out of himself. eom

[Fred Sanders]

2. Too complex for the slogan limited Idiot Tube. Turkey is a Muslim country and an ally.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. So is Saudi Arabia.

"Ally of the US" and "decent human rights" are not the same thing.

[hrmjustin]

6. my take.

We must remember that many countries that have a majority of Muslims currently do not have a strong sense of civil rights, liberal democracy, and rule of law. We must remember some of these goverments actively encourage religious extremism and pit different fractions against one another.

In the west most but not all nations have transitioned to liberal democracy and have gone through the growing pains that come with it. We have learned for the most part how to contain violent religious extremism. I say for the most part.

We have 2000 years of Christian and 1400 years of Islamic history to show when a state is theocratic members of both religion do violent and ungodly things.

[Igel]

7. I hope you don't include the US in the list of "Christian countries."

Because we have to remember that in no way is the US, nor has it ever been, a Xian country.

(We like to play these semantic games, thinking that points for form count. By that standard, Ukraine won conclusively and comprehensively in the Donbas, with no loss of life.)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. Well done Maher; shame on Affleck.

Last edited Sat Oct 4, 2014, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

Affleck can't enagage with Maher's point, he just shouts him down, calls him names, and tries to draw wholly spurious analogies between broadbrushing a group based on the action of a few and "broadbrushing" a group based on an opinion held by 90%.

Far too many liberals are unwilling to acknowledge how strong correlation and the causal link between Islam and ultraconservative social views is.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. We are developing a similar fundamentalist

radical ultra conservative irrational religious ideological political movement here in this country. They haven't walked off the deep end into ultra violence yet, except in isolated cases, but this is a global phenomenon and spans many religions.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. I'm not sure what "this" you're referring to.

What I am referring to is the fact that a) there is an immensely strong correlation between Muslim and holding extremely illiberal opinions, and b) that Islam is clearly causal of those opinions, not just correlated with them.

There are conservatives and liberals in every religion. But that's a truism; it mustn't be used to obscure the fact that *at any given centile* on a liberal-illiberal axis of followers of a given religion, the Muslim at that centile will be massively more illiberal than for any other religion; the bell curves overlap but the Muslim one is a lot further to the right.

I think your use of the word "similar" is inaccurate - the fraction of American conservatives who think that, for example, blasphemy or apostasy should be criminalised is tiny; there is literally no Islamic country with full freedom of religion. American conservatives want to stop gay people getting married; Iran executes them. American conservatives want to stop women having abortions; Saudi Arabia stops them driving.

I think that it is unfair and inaccurate to present other religions and Islam as being equally problematic.

[CJCRANE]

12. Don't you think it's strange that our allies

are the countries with the strongest islamic systems and the countries we have regime changed have gone from being secular to being overrun with religious fundamentalists.

It's also coincidental that christian and islamic fundamentalism have increased exponentially since the 80s.

[hrmjustin]

13. +1

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Not so much strange as false.

America's allies include the strongly secular Egyptian military dictatorship, whose overthrow of a democratically elected religious hardliner was American-endorsed; its enemies include the Iranian theocracy.

[CJCRANE]

15. I thought the administration didn't approve of the overthrow of Morsi. Also, how is it false

when our main allies are religious dictatorships and we overthrew Saddam and Gadaffi and are attempting the same to Assad: all secular rulers.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. No, they were tacitly in favour

They carefully refrained from calling it a coup. So that's one counter example

Assad is technically a secular ruler, but also highly religiously ideological.

There are both theocratic states and secular states among both the US's Islamic allies and its enemies, and among states where it has supported regime change.

[kwassa]

22. I would like you to substantiate this opinion.

It seems quite absurd on it's very face.

*at any given centile* on a liberal-illiberal axis of followers of a given religion, the Muslim at that centile will be massively more illiberal than for any other religion; the bell curves overlap but the Muslim one is a lot further to the right.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. That's in the same category as asking me to substantiate the theory of evolution, I'm afraid.

Name me one of the following:

A muslim majority country with full freedom of religion (I know none of these exist).
A muslim majority country with freedom to insult religion (I'm not 100% certain none of these exist, but there aren't many).
A muslim majority country where discrimination against women is not immensely widespread (I know none of these exist).
A muslim majority country where discrimination against women is illegal (I'm suspect a few of these exist, but there aren't many)
A muslim majority country where gay marriage is legal (I'm not 100% certain none of these exist, but there aren't many).
Etc
Etc
Etc

There are non-muslim countries with these problems too, of course. But the ratio is significantly lower.

[Rhinodawg]

25. Whoa...

Most Muslim countries (x Turkey, I think) follows the Koran.

Are you implying the Koran is anti-liberal?

you might be careful how you answer that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Hell yes.

Look up the instructions of the Koran on, for example, inheritance, wife-beating, testimony in court, slavery, submission of women to men, and in places treatment of non-Muslims (although I think this one is less consistent).

[Rhinodawg]

32. Wow.

I'm surprised that anti-islam/Koran talk is allowed here..... wow.

[Ron Obvious]

34. Do you seriously disagree with a single word he said?

Read the Koran sometime. It's more anti-semitic than Mein Kampf.

[randome]

35. Don't bring facts into this! Religion is the same thing to all peoples!

Although I understand the need for equivalency, we only need look beyond religion and to the culture itself to understand that the Muslim world is not at all the same as the Western world. In fact, comparatively speaking, it's pretty damned alien to our concepts of equality and justice.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"Everybody is just on their feet screaming 'Kill Kill Kill'! This is hockey Conservative values!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Donald Ian Rankin]

45. Do you think what I said is mistaken?

Or do you think that, even though it's true, it shouldn't be permitted?

[Rhinodawg]

60. Good question.

I dont know the answer.... but good points.

I (used to) think all religions are the same.

Although people who follow the Koran, islamists, have repeatedly done things that I find offensive.

At what point can we blame a belief in religion as a anti-liberal or fundamnentalism ?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

61. At the point it becomes so.

The important thing to bear in mind is that "Islam", "Christianity" and so on are not platonic forms. "Islam" means "the religious beliefs of Muslims" and there are lots of different Muslims, with lots of different beliefs.

So an absolutist statement "Islam is anti-liberal" isn't justifiable. But there *are* a variety of justifiable statements like "Islam as interpreted by the majority of its practitioners is anti-liberal, and much more so than is true of any other religion".

It's not reasonable to condemn someone solely for "being a Muslim", but it *is* reasonable to condemn someone for holding illiberal views, to point out that most muslims hold extremely illiberal views, to point out that those views are caused by the religious traditions they are part of, and to point out that many of those traditions are inherently illiberal - the more specific and monolithic the tradition, the more sense it makes to attack or defend it.

One can also point out just how appalling much of the Qu'ran is if interpreted literally; one can do the same thing to the Bible (argably only to a lesser extent) and to the Torah (arguably to a greater one). That doesn't tell us much about the people who respect those books, because it would be substituting our interpretation for theirs. But one can then follow on and observe that far more Muslims take the illiberal instructions of their holy book at face value than is true of Christians or Jews.

[Rhinodawg]

65. Thank you.

[merrily]

53. Do the same for the Bible or any book written 2000 or more years ago.

For that matter, look at the US Constitution before the Civil War.

I am not saying you're wrong. I am saying looking at the Koran, in itself, proves nothing.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. Read the question I was replying to.

I quite agree that a literal interpretation of a religion's holy texts does not tell you much about the religion; what matters is how that religion interprets the text.

But I was answering a question specifically about the Qu'ran.

[merrily]

63. I did read it before I posted to you the first time.

That the question was specifically about the Q'uran did not preclude you from giving a reply that was more broad than that, especially given the caution about your response that accompanied the question.

[EX500rider]

28. Yeah I am amazed when people try to equate the 2..

I can't think of any Christian country where you get the death sentence for converting to another religion.

I also can't think of any other religion that won't allow other religions to build churches in their country. (ie, no Churches in Saudi etc..)

[kwassa]

36. Since you asked ...

Last edited Sat Oct 4, 2014, 09:57 PM - Edit history (1)

and since you pulled this theory out of nothing:

Muslim countries with religious freedom ....

Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Egypt
Indonesia

Countries with substantial Muslim populations with religious freedom

India
Nigeria
Phillipines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_by_country

As to your women's rights there are non-Muslim countries that do very poorly with women's rights, such as many very Catholic central and south American countries. Many Muslim countries do poorly, too. It is not exclusive to them. Central Africa, Muslim or not, does poorly.

Gay rights are observed in relatively few countries in the world at all. Uganda wishes to make it a death penalty offense, yet is only 12% Muslim,and is 85% Christian.

Edit to add:

Traditionally, Islam honors and tolerates the religious traditions that preceeded it, such as Judaism and Christianity, while being intolerant of newer religious traditions such as Bahai, as Mohammed was considered to be the last prophet.

Here is one historical example:

The golden age of Jewish culture in Spain coincided with the Middle Ages in Europe, a period of Muslim rule throughout much of the Iberian Peninsula. During intermittent periods time, Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed.
...................................................
Having invaded the areas throughout Southern and Northern Spain, and coming to rule in a matter of seven years, Islamic rulers were confronted with many questions relating to the implementation of Islamic Rule on a non-Islamic society. The coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians during this time is revered by many writers. Al-Andalus was a key center of Jewish life during the early Middle Ages, producing important scholars and one of the most stable and wealthy Jewish communities and a relatively educated society for the Muslim occupiers and their Jewish collaborators, as well as some Christians who openly collaborated with the Muslims and Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. Many of your examples are simply false.

Let's run down your list of "Muslim countries with full freedom of religion"

Egypt:

A lower court ruling interpreted the Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom as inapplicable to Muslim citizens who wish to convert to another religion. This ruling is under appeal. Separate court rulings provided for 13 Christian born converts to Islam to obtain identity documents indicating their conversion back to Christianity and allowed some Baha'is to obtain civil documents. However, the courts included requirements effectively identifying the Christian converts and Baha'is as apostates, potentially exposing them, if implemented, to risk of significant discrimination by both governmental and societal agents. In addition, a lower court held that the Constitution's guarantee of freedom of religion does not apply to Baha'is.
Furthermore, governmental authorities detained some converts from Islam to Christianity, some religious freedom advocates, and some Christian children of parents who converted to Islam. The Government again failed to redress laws and governmental practices that discriminate against Christians, effectively allowing their discriminatory effects and their modeling effect on society to become further entrenched. According to some observers, police responses to some incidents of sectarian violence were slow.

Bangladesh I grant you as a technical counterexample - while there are plenty of government-enforced Islamicly-motivated social evils (Muslim women inherit less than men, for example) and plenty of unofficial restrictions on religious freedom, from a cursory search of the internet it looks as though the government does not officially restrict religious freedom much.

Afghanistan? Please tell me you're joking. The constitution provides for religious freedom "within the bounds of law" - i.e. not.

Indonesia? Not even close. The constitution does not allow for not believing in God.

There are certainly countries with substantial muslim populations with full legal freedom of religion; given the near-total absence of muslim-majority countries which do so, I think it's safe to say that this freedom is guaranteed in spite of, rather than due to, Islam.


As to gay & women's rights: There are non-muslim countries with good records on them. There are non-muslim countries with bad records on them. There are muslim countries with bad records on them. There are no muslim countries with good records on them.


Your claim that traditionally Islam honours Judaism and Christianity is laughable. "Sometimes tolerated" is not the same thing as "traditionally honours".

[valerief]

64. ^^^THIS^^^. It's the government with fundie governing.

That'd be like Westboro Baptist Church running this country.

[LostInAnomie]

18. +1

[arcane1]

27. It doesn't help that we also defend Muslims against actual bigotry from republicans

It's a very tough spot for a liberal to be in. It's similar to, say, criticizing Obama for something that he actually did without sounding like the kooks who criticize him for be a socialist gun-grabber.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Absolutely.

It's especially hard because, on average (and never forget that "on average" is an extremely important qualifier), Western Muslims are less illiberal than Muslims in Muslim-majority countries.

There is no attitude to Islam consistent with liberal values that can fit into a soundbite; one needs to condemn Islam as interpreted by most but by no means all of its practitioners, and stand up to the "all religions are equally bad" brigade, while pointing out that practicing a bad religion does not necessarily make one a bad person, and certainly doesn't mean one shouldn't be accorded basic rights.

[randome]

17. How many Muslim countries recognize the concept of romance and love?

Very few, I'd wager. That doesn't mean I see them all as violent or worth bombing but the majority of them are 'violent' toward women and minorities, if you see subjugation as a kind of violence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[kwassa]

31. an answer

No religion urges its followers to adopt mutual love, affection and intimacy like the religion of Islam. This should be the case at all times, not just on specific days. Islam encourages showing affection and love towards each other all the time. In a Hadeeth (narration), the Prophet, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), said: "When a man loves his brother, he should tell him that he loves him." [Abu Daawood and At-Tirmithi]

In another Hadeeth, he said: "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, you will not enter Paradise unless you believe, and you will not believe unless you love each other.Should I direct you to something that if you constantly did it, you would love each other? Spread the greetings of peace among you." [Muslim]

.............................................................................
Love in Islam is all-encompassing, comprehensive and sublime, rather than being restricted to one form only, which is love between a man and a woman. Rather, there are more comprehensive, wider and sublime meanings. There is love for Allaah The Almighty, the Messenger of Allaah, sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ), the Companions may Allaah be pleased with them and the love of good and righteous people

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/156581/the-concept-of-true-love-in-islam

[randome]

33. I wasn't really talking about religion but about culture.

Culturally, most Muslim nations have yet to join the 21st century. America is by no means perfect but we are steeped in ideas that the Muslim World can't even begin to understand. Ideas like romance. Love. Equality. The Western world at least promotes these ideas, however imperfectly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[kwassa]

37. The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam

Romance and love have been around for ever. Read it, it is great stuff. From the 1100s.

the famous quote "a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou" is from this poem.

[randome]

38. I know about that. The 12th century was a long time ago.

Somewhere along the way, they regressed, wouldn't you say? I doubt you'd find any Muslim government official who would promote such sacrilegious writings today. Women exist only to be subjugated. Gays exist only to die. Doesn't that pretty much express the majority -not the entirety- of Muslim culture today?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[kwassa]

40. 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. A tiny percentage are repressive.

What is a salafist? What is Wahhabism?

If you can answer those questions, you might understand.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. No, a large majority support some forms of repression.

The percentage of Muslims who support full social equality for women, full equal rights for gay people and full freedom of religion and speech is small, possible very small.

It's not fair to condemn Islam as a whole for the relatively small number of Muslims who blow people up.

It's not OK to defend the very large number of Muslims who think that burning the Qu'ran should be criminalised.

[merrily]

57. I bet a majority of USians support some form of repression, too, if they

were to be honest.

[merrily]

54. more like 2.1-2.2 billion

People tend to use older figures.

[Blue_In_AK]

19. Bill Maher pisses me off to no end when he goes on those rants,

for personal reasons that I've stated here many times. He needs to come to grips with his bigotry, but at his age, he probably won't.

[Turborama]

59. Me too, and I remember the personal reasons.

We are both in the same sort of situation.

[LostInAnomie]

21. #notallmuslims

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. An obvious response is #90%ofEgyptians.

It *is* worth noting that the proportion will be much lower for Western muslims, though.

[BuelahWitch]

30. Thanks for the transcript as well as the Reza Aslan clip from CNN

It makes more sense when I read it in print than to try to listen to them talk over one another. Maher went out of his way to double down on his anti-Muslim rant of last week.

It is clear that CNN is more interested in reinforcing the biases of their viewers rather than listening to Dr. Aslan's points.

[ZombieHorde]

39. They're discussing sociology.

The topics they're discussing have been studied. We can argue methodology, meaning, etc., but I think we should start with numbers.

Here is a study by the Pew Research Center. Are they honest? I see many different sources use their studies, so I know they're widely respected by news agencies, but I don't know how sociologists around the world generally feel about them. Unfortunately, not all countries were examined.


http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

There's charts throughout the document, but here are some I looked at...

Charts showing the difference between US Muslims and Muslims around the world start on page 139.
Page 141 asks about science and evolution.
Page 142 asks about suicide bombings.

Other question charts start on page 159.
Page 219 asks about death penalty for leaving Islam.
Page 221 asks about stoning adulterers.

[valerief]

66. Thanks. nt

[melman]

41. Maher is 100% right on this

Affleck sounded like an idiot.

[seveneyes]

42. Yeah, all religious edicts and murders are the same

That's why in the last dozens of years just as many innocents have been murdered IN THE NAME OF CHRIST as there have been innocents MURDERED IN THE CAUSE OF JIHAD.

[CJCRANE]

46. Fighting in the name of Christ is a very popular meme on the religious right.

Many RWers believe they are in a war against Islam.

Many RWers thought that's what they were doing in Iraq.

Here's just one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Boykin#Religious.2FPolitical_views_and_comments

Here's another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Bachmann#Religion

Christian and muslim fundamentalism are two sides of the same coin.

They are symbiotes which feed off each other.

[randome]

47. Christians (as a group) aren't taking up arms, beheading and stoning people.

There is a difference between the 2 worlds. To not recognize it is to ignore reality in favor of false equivalencies.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

48. Who are the main supporters of military action in the ME?

What political party do they belong to and what does that party represent?

[randome]

49. Military action in the case of trying to stop ISIS?

That would be both our current parties and I support that. Is any of it being done in the name of Christianity? No, although you could say themes left unsaid are still themes.

I still don't understand what invading Iraq accomplished. More oil? Not very much. To start a crusade to bring the Muslim world into the 21st century? Didn't work, did it?

Stopping murderous groups from beheading strangers is something to get behind. But you have to recognize that the beheading is being done solely on one side.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

50. Fair enough. I agree with you in that case.

[CJCRANE]

51. However, on a side note, there are lots of horrible people

doing horrible things all over the world all of the time. We ignore most of those.

ISIS have managed to extract maximum propaganda exposure from killing four people.

The MSM and pundits ignored their rampages in Syria where they massacred thousands of people and we (our govt) continued to support the Syrian rebels at that time.

IMO we need more of a debate about this as it's very easy to react emotionally before thinking clearly.

[randome]

55. Reacting emotionally or politically are both very easy to do. And wrong unless backed up by facts.

I can't say Obama is doing everything right but at least he has something more than a 'Coalition of the Willing' behind him.

God, how many ignorant phrases cropped up during Bush, Junior's reign? Coalition of the Willing. Homeland Security. Mission Accomplished. Bring it on! Known Unknowns (which actually makes sense but was explained very poorly).

I'd like to think it all happened in a distant time when people were less enlightened but...no.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[merrily]

56. Supporters of military action in the ME belong to one party?

[Blue_In_AK]

67. Onward, Christian Soldiers,

marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.

[merrily]

52. Which countries are officially "Christian?"

Tonga and Armenia, I know.

I guess the UK is still officially Anglican?

What are the others? I don't even know.

[Proud Public Servant]

62. Look, this is very simple

There are Muslim-majority countries.
There are Christian-majority countries.

There are Muslim-majority countries that explicitly use the Koran as the basis of their civil law.
There are NO Christian-majority countries that explicitly use the Bible as the basis of their civil law.

There are Muslim-majority countries that are explicitly devoted to the spread of Islam.
There are NO Christian-majority countries that are explicitly devoted to the spread of Christianity.

There are Muslim-majority countries that are state sponsors of terrorism, and of terrorist groups that commit their crimes in the name of Islam.
There are NO Christian-majority countries that are state sponsors of terrorism, let alone of terrorist groups that commit their crimes in the name of Christianity.

So, no; there is no comparison between "Muslim countries"and "Christian countries."