I am completely unable to imagine a circumstance where it is okay to handcuff a 6 year old.

[Stinky The Clown]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/17/justice/georgia-student-handcuffed/

In Georgia, the local constabulary saw fit to do exactly that.

For a tantrum in school.

They handcuffed a SIX YEAR OLD.

What.The.Fuck.Is.Wrong.With.People.

A SIX YEAR OLD.

That is NEVER okay.

Okay?

[elleng]

1. Okay.

[spanone]

2. i'm with you stinky. devolution?

[Iris]

3. I agree completely.

[Swamp Lover]

4. can you use a regular taser on a child?

Maybe you just set it to a low setting.

[teddy51]

5. Oh I don't know about that, being both a father and Grand Parent. Someeeeee Times they

can test the hell outta ya.
I told my daughter-in-law a couple years ago that I have the perfect solution for both her and us (when we baby sit a now 3 year old and 5 year old. My solution was a huge piece of velcro securely attached to a wall and special clothing made for the boys that would allow one to attach them to the wall. Of course you would have an optional velcro strip to place gently over there mouths when they start to scream. Uh Sanity at last!

[sarisataka]

35. I prefer to keep a roll of duct tape handy

The threat is usually sufficient...

I will only carry it out when my daughter hits her teen years

[teddy51]

40. Lol.. That works for me. With duct tape you can use it as both a restraint and something to control

there mouth. I love my little grand boys, but I gotta tell ya they do get out of control at times. It's interesting how they act different around Grand Parents than they do when mom and dad are present.

[Ilsa]

155. There are "safe holds" that can be

done on children, even older kids, that are out of control. The techniques are taught to teachers and parents of special needs kids (usually with developmental disabilities).
Handcuffs are never used, and shouldn't be. They are a cop-out for real discipline.

[Snake Alchemist]

165. Please list the hold you would use. Remember, this child is a biter. nt

[SATIRical]

167. And remember,

people in this country like to sue schools if teachers touch their kid.

[randome]

192. Exactly.

I'm surprised no one brought up the issue of biting yet. You can't always 'restrain' someone who is out of control with a safe hug and calm words.

I wouldn't presume to second-guess someone trying to deal with a child's rampage when you also don't want to cause the child injury.

[Ilsa]

251. The hold I was taught and that was used on the autistic children (and my child)

involved coming from behind, Crossing your arms in front of the child to grab their opposite wrists to slightly wrap their arms around their torso, bringing your knees into the back of the child's knees, bringing them to the floor, placing your body around theirs for a hug. I've never seen a teacher or child bitten in this position.

I used it many times when my son was out of control and could have hurt himself badly. The hold never hurt him. In school, use of the hold was documented and witnessed and parents were informed of each incident in which it was used, what precipitated the behavior, and what followed it.

As a parent, I was grateful that my child wasn't permitted to harm himself or another child, and I was glad there was a technique available to calm him, versus letting him thrash or bite, which handcuffing would permit.

[AnneD]

171. Children have died....

or been injured in these 'safe' holds. I agree with handcuffs being a bit much but I have seen teachers injured and children injuring themselves, and yes....6yrs and younger. I have seen a child be so bad it took 4 adults one each limb to carry him out to a place where he would not hurt anyone. He was 5. It is hard to get enough people to help you out what with all the staffing cuts. If the police are called, it is up to the police and parents. The school does not have the liability.

[Eddie Haskell]

188. Right on!

My wife taught a six year old boy that ended his next teachers career. Actually, it’s not easy to control a six-year old given the physical restrictions on educators. My wife teaches emotional support classes. The new class had three teachers caring for a dozen kids and a 240# male, one-on-one for the little devil. Within a week the kid broke three of the young teacher’s fingers and she never returned to teaching.

I get real tired of parents who handicap teachers with lawsuits and threats when their kids misbehave. Many of these kids are on calming medications at home, but the parents refuse to allow the school to administer the drugs in school and constantly forget to give the meds before the kids leave home. Hell, many of the moms don’t even get up to see the kids off. The laws are written to protect the children, but what about protecting the teachers?

I'm not sure what police policy is, but cuffs may have kept that kid and her classmates safe.

[Ilsa]

243. I have used a hold on my son that was SAFE. He was NEVER

in danger of being crushed or choked. The hold prevented him from hurting himself or his teachers or other students.
And he wasn't small, not at 75 lbs. He was autistic, though. The hold worked for us.

[AnneD]

272. Key words....

"I have used a hold on my son". When a teacher does that, they are responsible for anything that MIGHT occurs. As a Nurse, I have had to document post incident for the teachers protection in addition to bruises and marks on the kids when they come to school. I spend more time documenting for Special Ed than any other area.

In this litigious society, in the area of special ed, anyone doing something like this is just a law suit (or injury) waiting to happen. I have to file at least a workman's comp claim a month about a teacher being injured. They are advised not to do holds anymore. I am in middle school so it is a bit different, but even elementary school teachers hesitate, and for good reason.

[Snake Alchemist]

193. But it would be a gentle, caring death. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. USED TO BE taught to teachers

Not any more. Now we're taught hands off at all times.

[4th law of robotics]

210. And pray no one has a camera

and a picture of you "attacking" the child never comes out and is used to A) fire you and B) sue you in to bankruptcy.

In a sane nation a teacher would be able to sensibly restrain an out of control child without going to jail.

We don't live in that country.

[Ilsa]

244. Everyone here has judged what I was talking about

In safely restraining a child with a hold. He was never sat on, crushed, or choked, yet everyone here seems to think that is the only way a hold works.

And what kind of restraint are you talking about if it isn't a hold?

[riderinthestorm]

265. Sorry but in this day and age, it will be seen as molestation, attack, or worse. nt

[4th law of robotics]

268. The point was that it doesn't matter

a sensible hold when shown in a single picture with the right lawyer is assault.

That's just the way the world works.

[fascisthunter]

6. desensitization of society... this will make our youth used to this shit!

Stupid right wing motherfuckers are creating more misery.

[Cleita]

7. Apparently, the child had a physically explosive temper tantrum and

the goobers didn't know how to handle it. It seems like a psychiatrist or some such professional should have been called in to deal with her and not the police.

[hlthe2b]

9. Apparently these "child experts" never heard of a "time out..."

[Cleita]

10. I don't know if child care is part of the training at the police academy.

The action of the police was stupid, but I really blame the educators for being clueless assholes.

[teddy51]

14. I don't, I blame the parents for either letting this kid's behavior get to this level or not getting

with the problem when it became apparent that this girl was out of control and needed help. Why should Educators be responsible for things that parents (and family) should recognize and deal with?

[Cleita]

15. Because at school, the parents are not there. The educators are supposed to be in

charge then. What if the kid had fallen down in the playground and broken a bone? Shouldn't they be prepared to get that kid to a hospital and professional care when the parent is not present? They needed to call in a psychologist to calm the child if they couldn't do it themselves. Calling the police, who are not trained to deal with this, was way over the top.

btw, reading your other post about the velcro, all I can say is I'm glad your not my kids' grandparent, and if you were I would never leave them alone with you.

[teddy51]

17. That to me is exactly what the educators did do. They could not deal with this child and decided

to call police to handle the situation. You can't tell me that the parents were not aware that this 6 year old has a problem!

And your response to my velcro post... Get your kids under control, and if you can't do that you should not have kids! Don't make your problem someone else's problem. You as a parent know damn well that you have not done a good job raising your child if you are letting things get to the level that we see in this op. Consistent discipline is a magical thing, along with love and attention, of course.

[Cleita]

18. I don't have to use velcro to get them under control for one thing.

Until you know what is going on with that kid, calling the police on a six year old is criminal, of the authorities. I hope the family sues the shit out of the school and the police department.

[teddy51]

26. Well your part of the problem in this world! There are many kids like this one and many parents

that are at fault for not using appropriate consistent discipline (and I am not talking about my tong in cheek, velcro situation). North America is faced with more serious problems in years to come, because parents are not standing up to do their jobs. Kids are running wild with no consistent discipline.

[Cleita]

27. Well, knock me over. I guess the hospital should send a taser and handcuffs

in the swag bag they send home with new mothers to be used in case the 'discipline' doesn't do it. Ya know, I think when a kid gets in middle school, maybe then you can start to fear them, but toddlers?

btw. It's not tong. It's tongue.

[smokey nj]

50. She wasn't a toddler, she was six-years-old.

She also threw a shelf and injured the principal.

[Cleita]

52. No, but barely. Really, she's not even a thinking child yet.

I believe it's agreed that cognitive skills don't develop in children until they are around seven.

[smokey nj]

59. She's old enough to know not to throw furniture at the principal.

[Dragonfli]

85. Where do these people come from? the anger that is apparent in the post responses to you is scary

Is it fear of small children or hatred of them that causes such behavior and such indignation over the fact that normal humans don't hate/blame a six year old child for the abusive actions of adults?

These folks are barley human let alone progressive, perhaps the purge at freeperville is causing some overflow here.

[Snake Alchemist]

88. Once you acknoledge the barley-humans then it's only a matter of time before the hopps-humans are

at your throat.

[smokey nj]

90. What's so scary about my response? A six-year-old isn't old enough to know not to throw furniture at

her principal? Your post is a nasty, personal attack. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[WinniSkipper]

276. Are you willing to pay the teacher's legal bills?

Are you willing to go down and protest that this teacher not be disciplined if they hurt the child? Make sure they don;t get sent to "the rubber room" a la NYC? Give them a job when they get canned for grabbing this sweet kid?

Until you are willing to do that - you are nothing more than someone who is fundamentally against the plight of teachers and their fight for respect. They didn't get their Masters or Doctorate to wrestle with troubled 6 year olds who throw furniture. Well at least the ones I know didn't

[pnwmom]

152. You know nothing about this girl or what her parents have done. She might be autistic,

or she might have some other difficult behavioral issue that is getting treated.

The educators ARE responsible for what happens to this child when she's under their care, just as the parents are when she's with them.

[Snake Alchemist]

256. According to her mother she just has "mood swings" so we kind of do know. nt

[hlthe2b]

126. I was referring to the school staff as the "supposed" child experts...

I find it inexplicable that they could not have found a way to calm a 6 year old--sans police. The average six year old female is a mere 41 inches and 46 pounds!

While i know school officials have become paranoid about any form of touch applied to a child--but really. Could not a female teacher or counselor or staff not have applied a bear hug and sat her down until she calmed down if she was thrashing about hysterically? Put her in a small office until she quieted down?

Do these folks call the police when their own kids have a tantrum?

[Cleita]

129. Well, it did remind me of my first grade days, when unruly classmates were put in

the cloak room for about five or ten minutes until they calmed down. The teacher would just let them tantrum out. Since the only thing they could hurt themselves with were coats and jackets it seems like a solution to her. We had one kid that had regular tantrums and this is how the first grade teacher handled it. Of course this was more than sixty years ago so a teacher's authority was quite different then than what it is today.

[SATIRical]

168. Time out?

And if the kid won't stay in the chair and prefers to knock over bookcases, then what is your plan?

[hlthe2b]

222. A. I never suggested leaving him the room to destroy bookcases.

B. You apparently have no experience calming a child in tantrum. While I would not take on an older, larger child, this is a 41 inch 46 pound (on average) six year old GIRL.

You apparently don't know that children removed from the attention getting setting will calm themselves down. Ever hear of a small side room/office?

[SATIRical]

273. I don't think most schools have a padded room for solitary

confinement.

If it is any other sort of room, you are leaving the kid to destroy things or hurt him/herself. Again, time for a lawsuit.

And how are you going to get the out-of-control kid into that room?

So do you have any REALISTIC solutions?

[AnneD]

175. Some kids have such explosive tempers....

time outs are like squirt guns at a forest fire. I don't know the particulars so I am not about to judge. You try to use the least restrictive methods, but some kids require more specialized methods.

It is not as easy as you think these days.

[hlthe2b]

225. This is hardly a NEW problem...

Some here need to get real. I never said it was EASY. Handcuffing is EASY. Using a taser is EASY. Calling the police is EASY.

Parenting or counseling--in the case of these school officials is NOT EASY, but is not rocket science either. Unless you have evidence this child had severe intractable autism, fetal alcohol syndrome or something similar rendering them absolutely uncontrollable, then I'd say this is unconscionable and YES, they took the EASY WAY OUT. Too bad for the child, for whom no favors were done and who likely will internalize this very negative experience for a very long time.

Maybe we should put all children in restraints--just in CASE they act up. Good heavens. SIX YEARS OLD. FEMALE. AT most approximately 3 1/2 feet tall. Likely no more than 46 pounds. A frightened, snarling dog would not react well to such intense forced restraint. Why would you think a child would? And, yes, I have been in a position to have to "bear hug" both a frightened child (and similarly a very out of control injured animal) until they could calm themselves so that I could help. Likewise those put in quiet calm rooms or kennels (in the case of the dog) long enough to calm themselves. They didn't require handcuffs, hog-tying, tasers, pepper spray or other physical abuse.

Older, larger, stronger, mentally incapacitated youths, maybe. But a six year old female child?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

239. "Time out" is the dumbest thing ever

I try to avoid children at all costs, but haven't one of these booger flingers figured out it means nothing when mommy or daddy say this?

[hlthe2b]

240. the first tactic of someone with no argument is to launch an ad hominem attack... made more foolish.

when you show you don't have a CLUE what I meant (and clearly defined in the post just above your very rude one).

You apparently think this makes you look smart to lash out like that. Guess what. It does not.

Try actually reading the posts before showing your ignorance next time.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

250. Huh?

Why so serious?

Time out for you, I guess.

[morningfog]

245. Your avoidance of children nullifies your judgment on timeouts.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

253. You better be glad I avoid them

If I tipped them off that "time out" means nothing, you'd be screwn.

[morningfog]

255. Boy, am I. You don't know a thing about them.

Logic isn't a kid's strong suit.

[Snake Alchemist]

37. Tranq dart to the neck would have been a good option.

More details.

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/article/178448/153/Milledgeville-Police-Handcuff-6-Year-Old-Girl?hpt=hp_t2

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. And who is going to pay for that psychiatrist?

[Cleita]

51. Kid to ER. If her parents have insurance, them.

If they are poor, then the state. If the state won't pay the hospital has to pay for it. Our lovely system of health care. The point is she would have been evaluated as to what her problem was, psychiatric or physical. Hospitals still have social workers who figure out what resources are available to people who can't afford an uptown shrink.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. And how are you going to get her to the ER?

Where she probably won't be seen by a psychiatrist. If she isn't physically injured, she will just be sent home.

It's just not quite that easy. I deal with this all the time. If the parents have insurance, they can make an appointment and MAYBE get in to see the psychiatrist in 60 to 90 days. If they don't have insurance, then no, the child isn't going to be seen by a psychiatrist unless the parent can afford to pay out of pocket.

The idea that a school or a parent can just pick up the phone and get psychiatric help on an emergency basis is completely unrealistic.

[Cleita]

69. I already said up thread that they should have called an ambulance. She obviously has

medical issues. Even if the school didn't have the presence of mind for this the police should have thought of it. Actually, being in police custody would have facilitated getting her to the ER.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. You can't just pick up a phone and ask an ambulance to come get a kid.

They won't do it. They'll come, see that she is just having a tantrum and they will leave.

I'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS LOTS OF TIMES.

There's a good reason the school called the police instead of an ambulance. The police will come and if the parent can't get to the school, they'll take her home. But not always. I've seen the cops sit there and wait for the child to calm down (they all do eventually) and send her back to class. Or maybe she sits in the office the rest of the day. But you can't just ship kids off to a hospital because they are having a temper tantrum.

[Snake Alchemist]

108. I can't believe that people really think an ambulance will just come and seize a kid. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. And give her a shot to calm her down.

That is, if that psychiatrist the school has on call isn't available.

[Cleita]

130. You are a teacher?

Amazing considering you seem to not have much empathy for kids.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. WTF!?!?

I'm apparently the only one in this conversation who IS thinking about the kids. There are hundreds of other children in that school who deserve to feel safe and spend their days peacefully without being threatened with injury by a child throwing a temper tantrum. But I guess you think we should just let her run wild through the building. Cause calling the police is just not fair to this poor little child.

You need to spend a day with a kid like this and then come back and let us know how well those treats worked to calm her down. I'll be eagerly awaiting your report.

[Cleita]

145. I don't remember saying in any post that the child should be running wild through the building.

Calling the police was excessive. They should have called an ambulance. btw. I used to be a bartender and my co-workers and I were often able to restrain large and drunken men without handcuffs until the police got there with handcuffs. We never had to injure them either. It seems they could have restrained the kid without handcuffs until an ambulance with EMTs arrived who could have had a better solution for what is obviously a sick child, whether physically or mentally. Calling her a brat and saying she needed discipline is really not a good solution from adults who a six-year-old might want to look up to. I doubt if this one will have much respect for authority figures in the future.

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. One more time. They can't call an ambulance and send her away.

That's not how our fucked up health care system works. I've tried to tell you repeatedly that what you are suggesting is not only unrealistic, it is impossible. Sure it would probably be better for the child. But if the principal called an ambulance, they would either suggest she call the police or they would come and call the cops themselves. And then the school would get a bill for the ambulance.

I've been through this exact situation with children many times. I watched a child trying to stab herself and anyone who came near her with scissors. I've seen children try to throw chairs through windows. I had a child once who spent 30 minutes throwing books - hard cover textbooks. I've seen them kick holes into plaster walls. (Have you ever tried to kick a plaster wall? You're likely to break your foot before you break the wall.) I saw a child stab a classmate with a pencil so hard the pencil had to be surgically removed.

The FIRST thing you have to do in these situations is remove the other children. Their safety is the first priority. Sometimes, once the audience is gone, the tantruming child calms down. When she doesn't, there aren't many options. The parents are always called (when we have a working phone number). And several adults attempt to calm the child. This is not easy and offering treats doesn't work. Distraction is a better strategy. I've seen kids stop tantrums when a computer was turned on. Sometimes, you just need to stand there, hoping the child won't injure herself and wait for the tantrum to stop. It's not an exact science.

And when the tantrum doesn't stop, it escalates. I would never try to restrain a child. But I've seen the police do it. And you'd be amazed. It usually takes two or three officers to restrain a small child. And they have training. They've been taught how to restrain safely and without injuring the child. Most of the time they can do it without handcuffs but I have witnessed situations where that was the only thing that stopped the tantrum. I've never seen the handcuffs stay on for more than 2 or 3 minutes. I've never once seen the police walk a child out of school in handcuffs.

Sure I'd rather see EMTs come and safely transport the child in an ambulance to a hospital. But as I have said over and over, that won't happen. I wish it could but it's just not the reality.

[Generic Other]

237. And I know you do it with compassion and concern for the kid no matter how he or she acts

And no matter how the parents act later.

Teachers are sometimes required to show a level of patience and endurance most ordinary humans do not possess. Those who work under these conditions deserve our heartfelt appreciation for their efforts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

238. Thank you.

[Snake Alchemist]

159. Why didn't you offer those men a candy bar or an apple?

[liberalhistorian]

226. So you handcuff a six-year old

and put her in a fucking jail cell in an adult jail??? Yeah, okay, right. That's the fucking ticket. Glad you weren't one of my son's teachers. He had Asperger's and could have meltdowns. Fortunately, the school actually knew how to handle him and did their jobs without having to resort to law enforcement, which almost always only makes things ten times worse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

231. Once again. The police are the only outside help available.

THEY make the decisions once they arrive. If the police feel like the best way to keep a child safe is to handcuff her, they will do so.

The one point left out of this discussion is these kids don't just snap one day out of the blue without warning. I feel certain the parents had been told the child was having problems and there's a good chance she threw tantrums at home as well. So if you don't want to see your young child having to deal with police and handcuffs, then deal with the problem behaviors. Be responsible parents. I see no evidence of that in this story.

[liberalhistorian]

260. And if you have no problem with a six-year-old

being put in handcuffs, jailed and charged, then you, my friend, are in the wrong profession and my retired-teacher parents certainly agree. They had to deal with this shit in their own careers that began back in the early sixties, and I remember fellow students like this. Thing is, the school actually knew their damn jobs and knew how to control and handle them without calling the damn cops, who, once again, almost always make things worse for both the child and the family. I'm sure glad my aspie son never had you for a teacher. Fortunately, his teachers were a lot more understanding and empathic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

262. Where did you get the idea this child was put in jail?

The child was handcuffed and taken to the police station until her parents could retrieve her, outraging her relatives.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-six-year-old-handcuffed-20120417,0,765665.story

Being taken to the police station means she went to jail? On what planet?

Why resort to insults? Do you think that wins the argument? I've taught many aspie kids and have had great success with the vast majority of them. And honestly, their opinion of my professional capabilities means a lot more to me than yours.

[liberalhistorian]

263. So she may not have been

in an actual jail cell, but she was still taken to a police station in handcuffs. At SIX years old, NOT sixteen. I'm still shaking my head that you see nothing wrong with that and that you're fine with schools now using the police as a first resort and the creeping criminalization when I remember kids being just as bad forty years ago and the cops were never called. Schools could actually handle children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

264. I'm thinking about the other kids in that school.

They have the right to feel safe. They aren't safe with a classmate who is tantruming, trying to break a window, knocking a bookcase off the wall and injuring the principal. A child who injures an adult will injure another child. Without blinking.

Unlike you and 99% of the people participating in this discussion, I have actually witnessed out of control children and their impact on an entire school. It's not pretty. I also know what works to calm these kids down and what doesn't work. And I know that sometimes nothing works. And for the safety of the OTHER children, the school has a responsibility to remove the child. When you can't contact the parents, the only other option is calling the police.

If this child's mother had been available when the school tried to reach her, they wouldn't have called the police. There wasn't one day, one minute, ever, when my kids were growing up that their school wouldn't have been able to reach me or their father by phone. Never. I also made sure my kids knew how to behave when they went to school and knew not to throw temper tantrums. But if one of their classmates had been acting like this little girl was acting, I would have been furious had the school NOT called the police.

[riderinthestorm]

266. In the old days, "schools could actually handle children". No more. They are NOT allowed!

to touch the children. Or they face lawsuits and ruined lives and careers!

What the hell do you think they can do? Clearly you are NOT 16 in this day and litigious age

[SATIRical]

169. And what do they do with out of control patients

Usually strap them to a board.

And you think that is better than handcuffs? Yikes!!

[4th law of robotics]

213. I'm sure no one would have complained if they'd called an ambulance and brought in a number of EMTs

to deal with a childs tantrum.

No one.

Definitely.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. I'm sorry; but ...

I can think of several situations when handcuffing a six year old would be completely appropriate, e.g., to prevent him/her from harming themselves or others.

[alphafemale]

13. Sadly it may be the only resort left.

I doubt Zero Tolerance on "Touching" would allow you to just hold a child until they screamed their mad out.

Zero Tolerance has left Zero Sense.

A rampaging kid CAN hurt other kids.

[Cleita]

16. The child was already in the principal's office

so it appears she had been already removed from the presence of other children. What did the principal and other adults say or do to her to provoke such a hysterical reaction?

[teddy51]

21. Get serious! This kid has one of two problems IMO. She either has not been disciplined on a

regular basis, or she has some other issues. Either way, she needs help and that is what should happen.

[Cleita]

25. Really? I knew a lot of spoiled rich kids, who never got disciplined because the nannies

didn't consider it their job, yet they didn't have outbursts like this in the classroom. They knew they had to behave for teacher. I think the child has something going on with her physically, like physical pain. A teacher messing with a kid who is hurting will probably not get a good reaction if the child feels threatened.

[The Magistrate]

28. Hey, Teddy: Your Dominatrix Called, You Are Late For An Appointment, And May Lose Your Spot

Better hurry..

"...Not been disciplined on a regular basis..."

Try not to be so obvious, you are letting down the side.

[teddy51]

31. And what side would that be Magistrate? What am I so obvious about, by the way?

Kids need discipline and that is the bottom line! Does this child have a problem? It would seem so to me! The parents may not be able to control her at home, so they obviously need to get some help from someone. I do not think that parents should be able to push the problems off on schools. That's my bottom line here.

[The Magistrate]

32. Oh, Your 'Bottom Line' Is Clear Enough, Sir

"Say something once, why say it again?"

[teddy51]

33. Now that would be talking in riddles, and I am not very good at that! I don't know why you posted

what you did, when you are clearly not up to explaining what you are talking about. Kids need discipline, period! If you truly were/are a Magistrate then you would understand that!

[The Magistrate]

42. And Were You A Real Teddy, You Would Be Stuffed With Plush, And Fuzzy, Cute And Cuddly, Sir

And doubtless spend much less time urging children be restrained and/or beaten regularly --- after all, that sort of thing really is for grown-ups...consenting grown-ups.

[teddy51]

57. Wow... That was a good come back. Look, I respect the fact that you have been on DU for a

long time. I also respect that you present yourself as a Magistrate (good enough for me) and I also respect that. But lets be honest, children need discipline, and it needs to be structured and I think that this child needs more than that. She has a problem that probably is beyond discipline and is more likely Psychiatric in nature.

[The Magistrate]

158. As You Have Reached Saying The Problem Is Disturbance, Not Lack Of Discipline, Sir, Matters May Rest

Your language was, shall we say, overly harsh and simplistically glib.

A couple of things worth bearing in mind.

First, in discussing incidents like this, there seems to be an assumption that the parent or parents are slack, lackadaisical, etc., and there is no need for this. A far more likely presumption is that the parent or parents are doing the best they can by their own lights, making the best efforts they can as caring human beings who love their children, and are, unfortunately, overcome by circumstances to difficult for their abilities to cope. One wonders what the attitude of the school authorities has been prior to this, what sort of assistance is made available by way of social services and special education screening.

Second, in discussing incidents like this, there seems to be an assumption that the child's behavior was wholly inappropriate. That, also, does not strike me as a safe assumption. It seems to me quite possible the principal needed a the sort of attitude adjustment a toppling book-case can provide. The article gives us no information whatever on which to make a judgement: we do not know why the child was removed from the class, we do not know what the principal said or did in the office. It is quite possible that an adult witness might have felt the adults were in the wrong, and certainly possible that the adults behaved in a manner the child could reasonably perceive as unfair and unjust and even threatening.

[Snake Alchemist]

64. Like Teddy Kennedy and Teddy Roosevelt?

[Dragonfli]

109. Thank you sir, had I attempted to respond I likely would have done so with less restraint

resulting in actions against myself.

[teddy51]

127. And I have to wonder why that would be? I thought that my response's to "The Magistrate" were very

respectful and certainly would continue to be. Why would you interject yourself into this anyway?

[Dragonfli]

133. Because you appear to lack compassion, I dislike people without compasssion

immensely, they are always in the company of, if not actual bullies.

I have fought with bullies since my honor student days in grammar school, I often had to protect people from those lacking compassion and I tend to respond harshly to them as they usually only understand harshness. I meant what I said to the Magistrate.

[teddy51]

139. Guess what person, who ever you are and we certainly don't know that about anyone on the Internet!

Any and all fights that I have ever had in my life have been in defense of people being bullied. You don't know me, and yet you presume to and that pisses me off big time. I have had exactly 2 fights in my life, and both were all about people that were considered to be bully situations. So please don't judge me on what you assume to be the case.

[Snake Alchemist]

39. And did you hear what she did while in the principals office?

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/article/178448/153/Milledgeville-Police-Handcuff-6-Year-Old-Girl?hpt=hp_t2

[teddy51]

48. So what does that tell ya? She needs help and I don't think that the cops were out of line at

all in handcuffing her! She is obviously a possible threat to others.

[Snake Alchemist]

54. So you would suggest what exactly? Be specific. nt

[teddy51]

67. Some psychiatric evaluation and maybe before that, find out how life works at home.

Are her parents part of the problem, and if so they maybe need to have some outside assistance in Parenting!

[Snake Alchemist]

73. No, I mean right at that moment. nt

[teddy51]

89. She be handcuffed by the police! What else is one supposed to do? I don't have an answer

beyond that, and why should Education staff have a need to deal with this situation any differently? Teachers are getting the shit kicked out of them all over North America, and we just keep kicking. They keep saying, we are doing our best, and Administration says we are reducing staff and you need to do more. FUCK THAT!

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. The really sad part is the effect a kid like this has on her classmates.

They are scared. They aren't supposed to come to kindergarten to get scared because one of their classmates is out of control. It's really heart breaking. I watched a 1st grader throw a book at a classmate not long ago and caught the look on the face of the child next to him who was watching.

Whenever we have threads like this I ask if those criticizing the school would want THEIR child in class with this little girl. If she hurts the principal, she'll hurt a classmate without even blinking.

[morningfog]

246. And?

I don't see warranting handcuffing a 6 year old. I see a lot of adults who don't know how the hell to deal with children.

[Snake Alchemist]

248. If that's the case, then what do those adult's children like? nt

[morningfog]

252. Like? You are asking the wrong question.

[riderinthestorm]

44. Why do you think the principal or other adults did or said anything to provoke this kid?

I've seen temper tantrums that would make your toes curl when a parent tells a child they can't have the candy bar at the grocery store check out line! Just saying "no" provoked them to the most outrageous tantrums! Why would you ASSume the educators are at fault here?

The mom in the story admits this kid has wild "mood swings". That indicates to me that something else was/is going on with this child that the parent's haven't been addressing for a long time - perhaps physically, perhaps psychologically.

Regardless, the kid had already rampaged around, throwing furniture, injuring the principal, and was in the process of trying to smash glass which would have been a whole other shitload of trouble. Educators are not able to restrain children like they used to - that kind of physical restraint is now seriously verboten and would land the school in front of a judge fast. Calling the police is now the usual method in schools when a child gets violent, especially so violent they are injuring the principal and launching really serious behavioral shit (smashing glass).

[Cleita]

65. Wild mood swings? There you are, unaddressed psychiatric problems probably bi-polarism.

So saying no, doesn't qualify to you as a provocation? In their little minds it is. My problem here is that these are supposed to be adults and they can't figure out what is going on with a six year old? Whatever triggered this kid off or whatever reason she had to be taken to the principal's office, there had to be a lack of understanding of what set her off to begin with. Maybe she was scared of what her parents would do to her because she had to go to the principals office that triggered off a violent rage. There are so many unanswered questions here, yet everyone on this thread seems to think that the kid, whom is beginning to look like a victim, was the one at fault. Here you have trained and educated professionals pitted against a kid who is just learning to read and do arithmetic. Really, who is at fault here?

[Snake Alchemist]

70. Maybe schizophrenia? What would you have done? Be specific. Also, what if they kept her in the

school and your child lost an eye later that day?

[Cleita]

77. She had already been separated from the other children.

I would have called an ambulance or if I couldn't do that, asked the police to do so.

[Snake Alchemist]

81. EMTs may have tranqed her which would have helped, but not sure they're authorized to transport an

unwilling party.

[SATIRical]

170. So the ambulance folks

if the did anything, would have to strap her to a board or give her a shot of tranquilizer.

You think that is BETTER than handcuffs??

[Cleita]

179. Actually it is. Think about it. n/d

[SATIRical]

183. To each his own.

I would definitely prefer handcuffs to those other two options.

[Cleita]

185. Try to remember that this child will have to live with this incident for the

rest of her life. When and if she goes back in the classroom, how will her classmates treat her? Will she be the kid who got sick and was taken to the hospital? Or will she be the kid that was handcuffed and thrown in the back of a squad car. Also, when she grows up what will she remember? Adults who wanted to help her and got her to a doctor? Or, adults who treated her like a felon and handcuffed her?

You decide.

[SATIRical]

187. Until there is evidence she is sick

(and not from armchair psychologists on here) she will be treated as what she was--the kid who went completely out of control and not only disrespected the adults in charge but also destroyed things and hurt people.

Why should she be treated as anything else?

Convincing kids that it is not their fault (or choice) and that they are just sick when they do bad things doesn't benefit ANY of the kids.

[Cleita]

195. Let me see, here a forty pound six year old

with six years life experience in her life and maybe one year of some kind of education vs. middle age adults, with teaching degrees, with maybe thirty or more years life experience and who probably average 150 lbs.

It sounds like an even match to me.

[Snake Alchemist]

196. Once again, somehow you assume that they will get physical. nt

[Cleita]

200. They did get physical. What do you think handcuffing is?

However, I'm more worried about the mental attitude towards children with these adults.

[Snake Alchemist]

208. The teachers did not.

You said "vs. middle age adults, with teaching degrees, with maybe thirty or more years life experience and who probably average 150 lbs. "

What does their poundage have anything to do with it?

[Cleita]

209. Sure they did.

Just because they got the cops to do their dirty work, doesn't make them any less guilty because they instigated it.

[Snake Alchemist]

217. Perhaps the definition of "getting physical" is unclear to you. nt

[SATIRical]

198. Strawman

They aren't playing Jeopardy or balancing a household budget.

The kid was violent. Sure, a teacher could have easily controlled the kid. And then gone to court for physically restraining the kid. And that also really helps discipline in the classroom.

Changing the subject doesn't help your argument.

[Cleita]

201. I didn't change the subject.

I framed the issue. Try again much harder.

[SATIRical]

204. We were discussing cuffs vs shot/strapboard

And then you suddenly turned back to the fact that a teacher could physically restrain the kid (which is true, but not allowed)

[Cleita]

206. I never said that.

Surely, we are both writing in English?

[SATIRical]

274. So in saying

" Let me see, here a forty pound six year old

with six years life experience in her life and maybe one year of some kind of education vs. middle age adults, with teaching degrees, with maybe thirty or more years life experience and who probably average 150 lbs.

It sounds like an even match to me. "

You were debating cuffs versus shot/strapboard? Really?

The English words I read appear to indicate an adult either trying to outwit (discussion of education) or overpower (discussion of weight) the kid.

[morningfog]

247. Not withstanding your straw eye,

Take her out of her element, change the scene. She was having an issue with authority and control, take her to the gym or the field to burn it off. The answer is NOT to criminalize a 6 year old. That is severely fucked up.

[Snake Alchemist]

249. Ah, the football coach solution.

Kid just needs sprints.

[morningfog]

254. Ah, the you got nothing solution.

Six years old. Authoritarian apologist, you are, ever loyal to the handcuff.

[Snake Alchemist]

257. My solution would be intense therapy starting on the day of the incident.

But according to her mother, she just has "mood swings".

Yes, some authority is necessary. I'm sorry you would rather enable. Many parents are like you.

[morningfog]

269. Intense therapy includes arrest?

[Snake Alchemist]

271. Violent people with mental illness are often arrested.

Imagine if Jared Loughner had been arrested and then assessed.

Doesn't sound like this little girl's mother is even thinking about getting her help though. She's obviously just perfect the way she is.

[morningfog]

278. You are the king of strawmen. We are talking about a 6 year old.

Loughner has absolutely nothing at all to do with this discussion whatsoever.

6 year olds are not often arrested, nor should they be.

[riderinthestorm]

79. Absolutely NOT. Just saying "no" does not qualify as provocation for THIS kind of temper tantrum!

Ever.

This is far, far beyond the norm. I agree, the kid clearly has issues and needs (and a full 2 month suspension from school indicates to me that this isn't her first time in trouble) that need a medical eval. "Figuring out" what's going on in this kid's head is precisely the problem. Sounds like that hadn't been addressed by the parents yet either.

Unfortunately the time for a medical eval isn't going to be in the middle of this kind of melt-down.

The safety of the child and the rest of the people involved became the first priority, especially once this kid went nuclear.

[Cleita]

87. Yes, but you just said in your previous post that kids will throw

a temper tantrum when told no.

No the middle of a tantrum wasn't the time, but there was a trigger that led to the tantrum. The med eval would have to be done in the hospital, which is why I said they should have called an ambulance. Putting her in handcuffs wasn't going to make her not be nuclear perhaps even worse but restrained, which could have led to a dire medical condition for the child. She could have had an seizure if she was so agitated. Thank god she didn't. A paramedic could have given her a sedative to calm her down. Their call of course.

They screwed up on this and did not handle it very well.

[Snake Alchemist]

94. Still fairly sure that emt's cannot transport a patient unwillingly. nt

[Cleita]

100. This is a child in the custody of the school and

the guardianship authority is implied. The principal or the police only need to authorize. What happens to a kid that breaks a leg in the playground. Do they have to ask the child if he wants to be transported?

[Snake Alchemist]

106. No, that child would likely go willingly. Do you really believe that EMT's can drag anyone that's

kicking, screaming, biting away as long as they're ordered to do it? LOL.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. They won't. They will call the police.

EMTs don't restrain kids. They also won't give them shots to calm them down. That only happens in the movies.

[riderinthestorm]

101. Not a furniture-throwing-glass-smashing-personal-injury type of tantrum

and if you are going to be deliberately obtuse (or have never witnessed a kid screaming bloody murder but NOT getting violent at being told no at the grocery store) then I honestly have nothing left to discuss. If you don't know the difference than you just don't know.

Sometimes there just isn't a good trigger for a tantrum. Anyone with kids can tell you this.

You have absolutely NO guarantee that an EMT would have adminstered a sedative! NONE.

And I can assure you that hospital ERs don't do medical evals of kids on the spot. She would have been referred out to an appt weeks away.

[Taitertots]

162. Are you really trying to blame the teachers for this violent outburst?

Now you sound as delusional as her Mother.

[Dragonfli]

91. Have you ever worn handcuffs? They hurt like hell and are meant to, a six year old should be

punished by that sort of pain? Really?

Is a small child that much of a threat or danger? if so why not just shoot her to protect all of those vulnerable and far more fragile adults?

[Cleita]

102. I'm surprised they didn't taser her. n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

148. Yes ...

I have been handcuffed.

And yes, as someone that currently works in the juvenile justice system, I can tell you that there are some 6 year olds that can pose a threat to themselves or others.

No one is saying that the child should be handcuffed indefinitely or as a form of punishment.

[Ilsa]

156. There are "safe holds" that can be

done on children, even older kids, that are out of control. The techniques are taught to teachers and parents of special needs kids (usually with developmental disabilities).
Handcuffs are never used, and shouldn't be. They are a cop-out for real discipline.

[Snake Alchemist]

160. Choke her out? nt

[Ilsa]

241. Hell no, not in the least.

These are ways of bringing the child down to the floor so they can't hurt themselves or others. It gives them time to calm down. No physical restraints are used, just the adult over the child's body, but not pinning them. You have to be trained, of course.

[Snake Alchemist]

242. I've seen it many times on UFC. nt

[Ilsa]

258. I don't know what UFC is. nt

[jberryhill]

11. OTOH, these are surprisingly effective...

[theaocp]

12. They could have used nonviolent crisis intervention, but

hey, handcuffs are probably more likely to get you famous on social media, heya? Clowns.

[Cleita]

19. Bingo.

This was major stupidity.

[cbayer]

20. She was restrained and it sounds like she needed to be.

She had broken things and threw a shelf at the principal and they were concerned about harm to other students. She was attempting to break glass.

This was more than a temper tantrum, this was dangerously aggressive behavior, imo.

And I doubt it was the first time, as she has been suspended for the rest of the school year.

How else should they have tried to restrain her? If your child was seriously injured by another child who was totally out of control, what would you want the school (or the police) to do?

The parents couldn't be reached, so they called the police. Final outcome, no serious injuries either to this child or any other children.

I don't think we should draw absolutes on things like this. People do what they have to or need to do when faced with very difficult and challenging situations.

[Cleita]

23. Police? Really? Don't schools have psychologists they can call on with

this kind of emergency? They used to. I think an ambulance would have been more appropriate than police, if they couldn't reach the parents. The kid might have had something physical going on with her too which caused her to act out. A little kid that age can't always explain what's going on with them.

[cbayer]

29. A school might have a nurse. Or they might have a social worker type of person.

I wouldn't expect them to have a psychologist or any security personnel.

But even a psychologist probably would have called 911.

An ambulance seems a reasonable alternative, but they would have restrained her as well, imo.

Like I said, I suspect this is not the first time, so the probability that she was having some acute medical event is probably very low.

[Cleita]

30. Yes, but the restraints would not have been handcuffs and it would have gotten

her medical attention, which is what she needed.

[cbayer]

34. No they would have been leather restraints secured with a lock like device.

And they probably would have restrained her at the waist, both arms and both legs, because that's what they do.

What's the difference?

I have to agree with the need for psychiatric attention, because I suspect she has some significant psychiatric issues.

However, they would have taken her to an emergency room where she would have probably been kept in restraints, given a sedative and left to wait until her parents showed up.

If anything, this is an example of the broken down medical system, and , in particular, the completely broken down psychiatric system.

I would put money on her having needed psychiatric intervention for awhile and double down on it not being available to her.

[Cleita]

36. But she would have been on a gurney, lying down, not thrown in the back of a squad car

with god knows what filth back there. A sedative was badly needed here as well, until professionals could have gotten to the bottom of what was going on with her. A social worker would have been assigned to her to figure out what resources would be available to her and her parents. The way things are left, it seems, is that there will probably be a hearing in a court of some sort and she will not get the help she needs.

[cbayer]

49. She didn't get charged with anything due to her age.

I agree she needs help but would bet that there is none available to either her or her parents.

What you describe is an ideal world. For most of the families in this country, that world simply does not exist.

[Cleita]

55. As bad as our health system is, there still are resources available to poor

children. The best way to get pointed to those resources is a hospital social worker.

[cbayer]

75. Have you tried to access any of those services?

The available resources for adults with psychiatric emergencies are abysmal. Resources for children are 10 times worse. Just because they may be able to access Medicaid doesn't mean there are any beds or doctors or anything. Medicaid funding for psychiatric services suck just about everywhere

[Cleita]

92. Yes, I have because until recently I was working in medical and I know it's abysmal

but at least the ER's are still marginally functional and a social worker will really try to find resources. Sometimes they may be a private charity that can be helpful if the state and county resources fall flat.

[riderinthestorm]

84. No way. I have a 15 yr old in a crisis whose on SCHIP and it takes MONTHS to get an appt.

You are dreaming if you think mental health needs are in any way prioritized or handled appropriately in a hospital, a school or anywhere!

[Cleita]

93. So she shouldn't have gotten any medical help at all in the ER in

your mind because, services are poor?

[riderinthestorm]

107. She would not have gotten a psychiatric medical eval in an ER. Period. nt

[Cleita]

123. How do you know?

ER doctors will make an evaluation and recommend psychiatric care if needed.

[REP]

157. Not of a non-suicidal child and not without parental consent. Be real.

[smokey nj]

63. If their comments in the article are any indication, her parents don't seem to have a problem

with her behavior.

[cbayer]

66. Sure, she only acts like this at school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. There was a similar story a couple years ago

The mom was interviewed on local TV. She kept repeating that her daughter was not a problem at home, never threw tantrums, was a very sweet child.

And the whole time the mom was talking on camera, her daughter and a younger sibling were in the background jumping from the couch to the floor, screaming, pushing each other off a chair. Just going nuts for the camera.

Reminded me of that Sarah Palin interview with the turkey slaughter going on in the background.

[Dragonfli]

105. There is a very big difference, handcuffs hurt like hell, I know I have had them used on me

and only a sadist would intentionally put a child through that.
Is the act supposed to have been an inflicting of pain as a punishment? Is that what you are advocating?

[Snake Alchemist]

161. Or someone not wanting the child to hurt themselves or others. nt

[Snake Alchemist]

41. Good point. They could have administered thorazine on the spot. nt

[hack89]

233. Not in today's fiscal climate.

in our district the two elementary schools share a nurse.

[2ndAmForComputers]

131. Any average sized adult is capable of restraining a 6 year old with bare hands without hurting her.

And THAT is pretty damn near absolute.

The cuffs had nothing to do with the need to restrain. They were to humiliate and hurt.

[Snake Alchemist]

137. You think teachers can touch children?

[2ndAmForComputers]

141. Well, apparently policemen can.

[SATIRical]

172. You are absolutely right

Police CAN touch out of control kids and not get sued.

On the other hand teachers cannot.

That is why they called the police.

[2ndAmForComputers]

176. I do put most of the blame in the police officer.

He had absolutely no need to use cuffs.

But you know how the genus Sus is.

[SATIRical]

181. With your experience in controlling out-of control people

what would you have done if you were the cop?

[2ndAmForComputers]

211. Same thing any (non-psycho) father does when their 6 year old has an outburst.

They don't have super-strength, you know.

[SATIRical]

218. Oh, I see

So you are OK with teachers doing everything to your kid that you do?

Sorry, most people aren't.

So I'll ask again, specifically, what would you do? Bear-hug the kicking, screaming, biting kid? What do you think would happen if a teacher did that?

[fascisthunter]

180. THINK about the Psychological Ramifications

do we really need police officers to handcuff children now... really? Is this the world kids are going to have to live in now?

[cbayer]

184. Since we know virtually nothing about this child, it would be hard to assess the

psychological ramifications.

If we assumed this was a perfectly normal kid and this was the first incident, then this could certainly be traumatic.

OTOH, if this is a child with a severe explosive disorder, being restrained can actually be reassuring and less traumatic than letting it go on.

If we see a trend here, I will share concerns that we are moving in a disturbing direction. But this is an isolated case, as far as I know.

[Odin2005]

22. Many schools don't allow teachers to restrain students...

...because of fear of lawsuits. So when kids get violent all they can do is call the police.

[alphafemale]

38. Exactly.

When I was a kid I remember teachers holding onto a kid until they screamed themselves out.

Especially at 6. That's still almost a baby. If they haven't been taught how to act right at home there's still hope at that point to intervene.

[Snake Alchemist]

43. Physically restrain them?

[Cleita]

47. Also, a former roommate of mine before I got married was a kindergarten

teacher. She taught me a lot about little kids that age and one of the things that stuck in my mind was that this child has only five years, in this case six years, of life experience to draw on. So if the adults around them fail them, they don't have anything to help them make sense of a situation. This results in emotional outbursts because they don't know how else to react when something unknown comes their way. Teaching them social manners is one thing, but beating discipline into them doesn't make sense to them.

[Luminous Animal]

95. +1 I came to the thread late but the many of the reponses are depresssing...

Thank you for keeping up the good fight.

Unbelievable. Handcuffing a 6 year old and so few can imagine an alternative.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. That's exactly right.

Just had to deal with a similar situation a few weeks ago. Fortunately the police were wonderful and the child de-escalated eventually.

[tnvoter]

24. I can think of many

Six year olds are capable of physical violence that can harm their peers as well as adults. This child clearly has unresolved anger issues, becoming violent and injuring the principal. That is undisputable.

Totally justified in my book.

No, I don't hate kids. I have two - one who is 11 and one who is 13. I have volunteered in their schools, and I have encountered many tantrums (not to this degree, of course). I can definitely understand why the school called in cops -- it was a violent situation. They are not trained to manage violence. I would have done the same.

[groundloop]

46. You're correct, this sounds justified and humane

The child was out of control, had already broken things, had already injured the principal, and wasn't calming down. She was attempting to break glass, which was far more dangerous to herself than handcuffs. Putting cuffs on her didn't injure her, and kept her from doing further harm to anything or anyone else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. I can.

But then I teach elementary school. Fortunately there aren't many children completely out of control, as this child obviously was, but there are a few. I can understand when a child is at risk for injuring herself or others, that some type of restraint is necessary to keep the child safe.

According to the police report, kindergartner Salecia Johnson is accused of tearing items off the walls and throwing furniture.

She was crying in the principal's office at Creekside Elementary before police arrived Friday. The report says the girl knocked over a shelf that injured the principal. It also says she was seen biting the door knob of the office and jumping on the paper shredder. And, it says, she attempted to break a glass frame above the shredder.

The report says when the officer tried to calm the child, she resisted and was cuffed.

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/article/178448/153/Milledgeville-Police-Handcuff-6-Year-Old-Girl?hpt=hp_t2

[Cleita]

56. I wonder if the officer tried an ice cream or candy bar?

I have calmed snarling dogs with a treat. Why would a young child be any different?

[Snake Alchemist]

60. Because a child is not a dog?

If only the mom had thought of that when she had her "wild mood swings".

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. Because the child isn't a dog.

Good grief.

[Cleita]

80. Small children do react like dogs a lot to how adults treat them.

They really haven't developed much in the way of thinking skills at that early of an age.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. I'm done here.

Have a pleasant evening.

[Snake Alchemist]

166. Crate training has worked wonders with many children I know. nt

[riderinthestorm]

68. As though the officer had time to just stop on the way over and pick up ice cream??!!!

Or a candy bar??

The kid was already in a full melt-down! If she'd been successful at tearing the picture frame apart and shattering the glass who the hell knows what kind of mess ALL of them would have been in!

I don't know a single cop who carries around a spare candy bar in their front pocket to calm a raving child! Do you? That's a pretty damn big presumption that any of them would have a treat (or that it would have worked. In my experience once the kid gets into that kind of meltdown, they're beyond bribery with anything!)

[Cleita]

71. Don't schools have vending machines? n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

76. What if she turned out to be diabetic and that killed her? nt

[Cleita]

78. The school would know if she was diabetic. n/t

[Snake Alchemist]

82. Yeah, because the parents seem on top of things. nt

[smokey nj]

83. Did you even read the article? The kid was about to smash a glass frame, she'd been biting on

doorknobs, she was throwing furniture and injured the principal. Do you honestly think candy bar would have helped the situation?

[riderinthestorm]

86. Not in elementary schools and at the upper levels, they're not stocked w/ sweets like ice cream! nt

[Cleita]

96. Potato chips? An apple? Anything that would distract her and

look like a treat.

[riderinthestorm]

115. LOL. Good luck with that. Just try an apple...

Go ahead, I double-dog (heh) dare you to try de-escalating little Muffy at the grocery store with an offer of an apple the next time you see her in line throwing a fit because she's been denied Skittles by her mom/dad.

And this girl was way, way, way beyond that point - she was tearing shit off the walls and hurting her principal.

Like proud in kansas I'm done here.

Unless you've volunteered or worked in schools, you have no idea of the reality of some of these kids and the legal boxes the staff are in trying to deal with restraining these children.

I'm done here with this. Good night.

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. The treats in those machines are for the teachers.

Better not start giving them to kids. A teacher might have a temper tantrum. You really don't want to take that midafternoon sweet treat away from a stressed out teacher.

[AnneD]

190. No most school cannot have vending machine visible to kids....

due to nutritional concerns. If you worked in schools, you would know that there is an obesity problem and many states no longer allow this (foods of minimal nutritional value).

But give the child a treat for acting out??????

What are you teaching the child...if you behave badly enough you get what you want? That may be part of the child's problems to begin. If you kept up with education, you would also know that almost 60% of school do not have a Nurse and many do not have counselors in elementary school.

First responder and EMT's prioritize and a heart attack has greater importance than an out of control kindergartner. And no, they will not tranquilize the kid. Calling the police may have been the best alternative as opposed to doing a potentially lethal hold that could get the staff sued (and something tells me this was a real possibility-but just MHO based on experience) or have the child injure herself or others.......

You are obviously clueless in this area and it really shows as several others. It is easy to tell the folks that deal with kids every day as professional educators, and those that sit in the armchairs and think they can coach the big game.

I hope the child is screened (and this will take time to set up). Fortunately outburst like this tend to be infrequent, but they do happen. One child should not be allowed terrorise other students, teachers and staff.. There is too much to learn to be dealing with this. Maybe the child is not ready for school, but in this case, I think testing and speaking with the parents is in order.

[Cleita]

194. As I said in another post, this was a crisis situation and hardly one that demanded teaching

a child manners at the moment. I don't think it would reinforce behavior under the circumstances. This child will be traumatized by being treated like a felon. She will be made fun of by her classmates when returned to the classroom. It was an awful decision on the part of adults who should know better. Whether or not the EMTs would give her a sedative, it would have been better to take her to a hospital to be evaluated.

[Snake Alchemist]

197. I wonder how traumatized the principal is and I doubt that child will be returning to that class and

maybe even that school for a long time if ever.

[Cleita]

199. I hope not.

I hope that child does go to a school that recognizes her special needs. However, I feel sorry for the rest of the kids under those clueless adults.

[Snake Alchemist]

202. Quite a diagnosis. nt

[SATIRical]

173. Reward her and reinforce that behavior?

Great plan.

[Cleita]

178. This was a crisis and needed a crisis type solution.

[SATIRical]

182. Which is what the cop applied

without reinforcing poor behavior.

[WillyT]

58. It Happens When A Country Loses Its Fucking Mind, And Classiness, Wisdom, Maturity And Common

Sense Are In Short Supply



I agree COMPLETELY with YOU !!!

[Dragonfli]

72. Likely because there is no circumstance imaginable to warrant such abusive behavior.

What else needs to be said?

[Cleita]

74. Well, Stinky. After reading this thread, I can see why

so many little sociopaths are being raised from the bottom up in this country.

[Luminous Animal]

103. So little compassion.

Hand cuff 'em. Lock 'em up. Throw 'em away.

[Odin2005]

110. Wow you think, restraining a violent kid makes people sociopaths?

[Dragonfli]

112. Wow, you think inflicting a painful restraint system on a very small child is not?

Perhaps you lack the "empathy gene" as well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. Would you want your child to sit next to this little girl in class all day?

Be honest.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. Did your niece tear a bookshelf off the wall, injure an adult and try to break out a glass window?

This child was completely out of control. Out of control children are dangerous. I don't want my children around them. I don't want ANY children around them.

Your last sentence is just completely unnecessary. What a disappointment. I thought better of you before you ended this debate with a lame personal attack.

[Odin2005]

122. The cuffs keep her from throwing things and htting people

What about empathizing with the principle who was being assaulted and could not restrain her himself lets the school get sued?

[Snake Alchemist]

135. Do you think the other kids feared this child? nt

[Dragonfli]

144. Perhaps that is why they are not left alone unsupervised.

Do you think the other kids fear being placed in a device designed to cause pain when it is there turn? They may now.

Do you think the child in question felt fear as GIANTS caused her pain? Do you really fear a small child enough to feel the only solution is to cause that child pain and treat her like a violent adult criminal, do you know what a child is? do you know they are quite small and easily subdued without draconian measures.

Perhaps some, just get off on the pain inflicted on children, stories like this excite such people I imagine, I hope there is a rag handy for clean-up for the hypothetical sadists out there that think this is great stuff.

[Snake Alchemist]

146. yes, because people see the need to restrain a violent child

They are sadists and hate all children. You nailed it.

[Odin2005]

149. I love my 5yo nephew and I'm not afraid of him at all.

then again, he isn't a violent brat. He's a typical hyper and crazy 5yo, and he does throw tantrums, but he NEVER gets violent.

[Cleita]

118. No I think treating this child like others said she should be treated,

turns them into sociopaths. It makes me wonder about how they are raising their kids.

[Odin2005]

124. I'm concerned how the parents of this brat are raising her.

The way it sounds they give in to her tantrums all the time.

[Cleita]

125. This child is mentally ill. Calling her a brat is uncalled for. n/t

[Odin2005]

147. All misbehaving kids are mentally ill, now?

That is rather insulting to kids with actual mental illness.

[Cleita]

150. This kid didn't just misbehave. She had a violent episode.

That points to something more going on.

[Odin2005]

151. It sounds like the parents never disciplined her.

So it sounds like reinforced bad behavior, not mental illness. If the parent always gives in to tantrums a kid will learn that throwing tantrums is the way you get what you want.

[Cleita]

153. I think this is beyond a temper tantrum.

She needs a medical evaluation.

[alarimer]

98. The police are out of control in this country.

They treat people (even children) like they are the enemy. It is all about dehumanizing them.

[WillyT]

116. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

[Marrah_G]

121. I think that if this child was that violent then she ought not to have been in a regular school

I remember being 9 months pregnant and having my 6 year old mentally disturbed sister-in-law trying to kick me in the stomach screaming that she was going to kill my baby after I dragged her out of a store where she was throwing things off the shelves. Needless to say she spent the majority of her minor years in special live-in schools.

[Cleita]

132. Finally, a sensible post.

Yes, if this isn't a one time occurrence, it would seem she has special needs and probably should be removed from a regular classroom. But that would take a psychiatric evaluation which many posters on this board consider impossible.

[Snake Alchemist]

136. I'm sure her mother has already scheduled one. nt

[4th law of robotics]

214. My money would be on her going to a lawyer first

[Puregonzo1188]

140. I can.

In a militarized police state.

[Rex]

142. I agree 100%.

nt.

[Taitertots]

163. Calling her actions a "tantrum" is complete BS

Attacking the Principal, destroying school property, chewing on door knobs. This was no tantrum, this was a violent psychotic breakdown.

This child needs to be taken from her pathetic excuse for parents.

[Catherine Vincent]

164. Not only that,

I don't think the school should have called the cops. Why didn't they call CPS or lock the kid in a closet or something until her parents showed up? But maybe the school didn't think the cops would actually handcuff her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

177. You can't call CPS and ask them to come for an emergency

As I've said over and over, the only outside help in this situation is the police.

[Lizzie Poppet]

215. Lock the kid in a closet? WTF?!?

You're trying to make a joke, right? You can't possibly think that locking a kid into a small, confined space (while she's having a violent emotional episode, no less) is somehow less traumatic than being handcuffed, can you?

As has been pointed out, CPS doesn't have emergency response personnel. In the event of being notified of an actual emergency situation, they'd do exactly what the school did: call the cops.

Her parents? Their response doesn't exactly create confidence in their ability to handle even a normal tantrum, to say nothing of what actually occurred.

Look, I feel sorry for this girl. She's obviously got some serious emotional problems, and she needs help. But in that situation, I'm not sure what else the school could have done. The student was not, apparently, responding to verbal. attempts to get her to stop what she was doing. Her behavior had escalated far beyond "tantrum" status and was constituting a genuine physical threat to herself and others (as actual injuries inflicted demonstrate). The school's responsibility at that point was to physically restrain the student...and it may well be that the staff itself is prohibited by district regulation from doing so (lots of districts prohibit physical restraint of students by staff...it hasn't come out yet if this is one such district).

What would you have had either the school staff or the police do?

[Catherine Vincent]

259. Well...

I guess I meant lock them in a room by themselves until they calm down.

[riderinthestorm]

267. Like schools with massive overcrowding have empty rooms anywhere??! WTF?!

Just put this girl in a janitorial closet with dangerous chemicals? Or how about the supply cabinet with scissors and staplers?

Do you think schools have padded cells just waiting for some troubled girl to come along once every so often?

[Catherine Vincent]

275. I was thinking more of...

A time out room or something. That's all I meant.

[riderinthestorm]

279. I've helped for many, many hours/years at 7 different schools while my kids were growing up

and I can say for certain there's never been anything like a time out" room. I'm not sure what that would look like (a padded cell?) or if it would be misconstrued as something pretty sinister.

One thing I know is that schools are so desperate for space that it would soon be stuffed full of really necessary stuff like art supplies, food... or it would be taken as an office for sure by a desperate nurse or social worker (who often work in the cafeteria now in the school's I've been in) where private space with a door would be a prize.

Do you work in schools at all?

[Catherine Vincent]

280. No, I don't work in a school

The time out room would be a smallish room with a desk where the student can do detention/school work and maybe it can be right next to the classroom. But I get your point about schools not having enough space.

[BumRushDaShow]

186. It's happened before

In this country, it's no big thing and is generationally ingrained in the most vile of the majority society.

[Stinky The Clown]

189. I wonder how many people in this thread know of the connection between the names Frist and Schiavo..

.... and, if they do, if they felt, at the time, some outrage at the audacity of Mr. Frist's diagnosis of Ms Schiavo based on his viewing of a videotape of some uncertain provenance.

in this case, we don't even have benefit of a videotape.

The only certain fact is that the child was handcuffed by the police. Any diagnosis as to the child having some aberrant condition is, absent a doctor's statement, it seems to me, speculation.

It is okay to state that you think the child has issues and even to state what *you* think they might be. But the absolute certainty with which some in this thread have diagnosed the child is kind of silly.

It seems to me.

[Phentex]

191. How would you have handled this?

as a teacher or administrator, not as yourself.

WWSD?

[Stinky The Clown]

212. I probably would also have called the cops

But as the principal, would have forbade them to handcuff the kid. Two cops can restrain a six year old without handcuffs.

Look, there are few good answers, but handcuffs are way over the top.

She is a six year old CHILD. Now matter how out of control, if two cops can't restrain here, they ought not be cops.

[Lizzie Poppet]

216. As principal, you wouldn't have had the authority to dictate the cops' actions.

Furthermore, I think it can be legitimately argued that having two adult-sized people maintaining close physical restraint with their hands on the girl would have been rather more traumatic than being placed in handcuffs. I know I'd be a lot more upset by a couple people with their hands on me, restraining my movements, than I would be cuffed, but with the people then stepping at least a little bit away. Then again, I'm not a 6-year-old having a violent meltdown, so I suppose I can't really say...

[Phentex]

220. True, but what about before help arrived?

Would you have physically restrained her? Locked her in a closet? Left the room?

When the child was losing control in the room, what would you have done?

[Stinky The Clown]

221. I'm a grumpy old coot, not an educator, but my gut says I would have called for help from staff . .

. . . and then broken the rules and restrained her until I could get her confined someplace. A closet would have been good, but who knows. I wasn't there and am not about to start inventing places.

Bottom line: to hell with the rules. this, it appears, was a very special case. I've never been one for the rules when common sense says to do otherwise. Better to ask forgiveness than permission. That kind of thing.

What I can tell you for certain is that no handcuffs would be used.

[Phentex]

228. Then you and I would end up on the news and would lose our jobs...

I can imagine circumstances where the child being locked in a closet could harm herself. I can imagine circumstances where restraining a child would result in charges being filed against me. I can imagine circumstances where duct taping a child's mouth seemed like a good idea at the time because to hell with rules!

I can also imagine staff calling the cops because they don't want to break rules and lose their jobs. And I can imagine cops not using good judgment because to hell with rules - this kid is kicking me and out of control.

Nobody's right and everybody's wrong.

[LanternWaste]

203. I imagine that anyone who believes that hand-cuffing a six (SIX!) year old...

I imagine that anyone who believes that hand-cuffing a six (SIX!) year old is the only valid and appropriate measure is either not thinking enough or simply cannot think enough.


Six years old! For pete's sake-- six years old.

Again, (and please let this sink in you under-educated, sub-literate, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing australopithecine who may rationalize to yourselves for the sake of just being contrary that it's a valid course of action)...

Six. Years. Old.

Six.

[Arkansas Granny]

205. The wife of a co-worker is a first grade teacher. Apparently the rules against corporal punishment

are so broad that school personnel have their hands tied as far as what they can and cannot do to control a child who is throwing a tantrum. Even if a child is biting, kicking, scratching and totally out of control, they are not allowed to restrain the child to the point of even leaving a red mark on their arm or wrist. Therefore, they are almost forced to bring in law enforcement, who are not constrained by the same rules.

It sound asinine to me, growing up and raising children in a era where corporal punishment was the rule, but the school district cannot risk the lawsuits that could, and would, ensue if a child sustained an injury while being restrained by school personnel.

I'm sure that I'll be considered an old fogey and I may catch some flames, but I think some of this stems from a lack of parental discipline. Many young parents confuse discipline and punishment and simply do not teach their children any respect for authority or how to behave in social situations. Many people do a better job of socializing their puppies than they do their children.

[ctaylors6]

207. 6 yo can be when behavioral issues manifest

I hope the child is properly evaluated and if needed/appropriate, treated. Could be, as others have suggest, lack of discipline. But it could also be a whole host of other types of psychological and/or medical issues that aren't diagnosed until children are school aged. Or that are not as easily seen as severe until a child is in a classroom setting with peers.

[FarCenter]

219. Bring back Sister Mary Margaret and her ruler

[Stinky The Clown]

224. We used to walk to school 10 miles. Uphile. Both ways. In the snow. Our shoes had holes in them.

And we liked it that way.

Sister Mary Margaret is forever in my debt. She caused me to leave the Catholic Church with that fucking ruler of hers.

She also used to smoke behind the school. We saw her.

[FarCenter]

227. Into a 40 mph, -25 degree F wind.

[Stinky The Clown]

230. That was the easy part

I **liked** a good hard blow.

[2ndAmForComputers]

236. In September.

[Phentex]

229. She told me to get rid of my gum...

and then punished me when I tore off the corner of a page in my catechism book to wrap up my gum!

God, I hated that class!

[joshcryer]

277. Why wouldn't you go down hill both ways?

Was it not allowed?

[liberalhistorian]

223. They not only handcuffedf her, they

actually put her in a JAIL CELL IN AN ADULT JAIL. Imagine being the parent of a six-year-old and having to pick her up at an adult jail because the dipshit school idiots couldn't do their fucking job without resorting to law enforcement. I grew up with teachers and they damn well knew how to control children and teenagers when they acted much worse than this child did, and so did all the administrators. They never once had to call the cops on their own young students, except for only ONE time and that was when the kid actually pulled a gun on them, so it was warranted.

Then the stupid neanderthal fuckers CHARGED her. Un-be-fucking-lievable. And of course the cop couldn't calm the child down in the principal's office. The cop only made things worse, hell, an ADULT would have been scared shitless at a cop in that case (well, at least most of the ones I know!) WTF schools now resort to calling cops on little kids instead of damn well controlling it themselves is beyond me, that's like pouring gas on a raging bonfire. Beyond overkill. The ones calling the cops should resign in disgrace and the cops who handcuffed and jailed and charged her should be charged themselves.

[fascisthunter]

232. "Dat'll Show Her!!!"

...yeah, make the kid feel like a criminal, and give a kid with problems complexes on top of it all. Dumb!

[liberalhistorian]

261. Of course it's dumb, and

cops almost always make these situations ten times worse for both the student and the family. I remember there being students like this over forty years ago in elementary school, as do my now-retired teacher parents. But the cops were never called; the schools knew how to handle it without knee-jerk running to the cops. And if they thought a cop was actually going to be able to calm a child down instead of frightening and setting her off even more, then they are REALLY dumb. The criminalization of everything marches on apace.

[Snake Alchemist]

234. They tried to put her in the principal's office. That didn't work out so well.

Someone upthread suggested locking her in a closet.

Per the article: "The student was never placed in a holding cell, or jail cell, and the student's safety was the utmost importance," Swicord said.

[Stinky The Clown]

235. Please see this thread:

It is by me and offers a possible solution.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002580260

[Jennicut]

270. I have a six year old and have worked as a sub in elementary schools.

Cuffing the six year old seems to have been done because she was a danger to herself. The school probably has rules that an adult cannot touch a child in anyway. Didn't leave a lot of options I suppose.

I have never had to deal with a tantrum that bad in a school. Most kids that age, like my daughter, throw little hissy fits and then get over them fairly quickly.

However, I did see tantrums like that at a group home I worked in as a counselor. Those kids had a lot of issues. Many were abused and all had been taken away from their homes for some kind of neglect/abuse. You do have to wonder what is going on at home when a child tantrums this badly. I was allowed to restrain those children when they acted out so they could not hit anyone or throw things or hurt themselves. We were taught to cross their arms over each other and hold them until they calmed down. Most schools do not allow their teachers/principal to do that.