Hey, guys. Commiserations. I have some observations for you from Scotland...

[sibelian]

I wonder if you will find this interesting.

The Scottish National Party(SNP) in Scotland is poised to wipe out Labour (the major UK left party)at the next general election. Why?

Because the SNP is further left than the Labour party now.

Also, the behaviour of some of the Labour activists during the independence referendum campaign was so foul that a vast number of diehard Labour supporters switched over to the SNP in disgust. The SNP's party membership is now 80,000 and rising (I realise that's small beans compared to the US, but for our country it's big, it's now larger than the other UK "third party", the Liberals, it's now the third largest party in the UK). The SNP has been in power for 7 years and proved that its primary interest is Scotland and its people. The Labour party's primary interest is the Labour party. Alex Salmond, First Minister and SNP leader (soon to step down) was basically the only major political leader in the UK that condemned the Iraq War from the start. He started winning and kept winning because he told the truth.

After Thatcher the right wing Tories were utterly obliterated from Scottish politics. Currently they hold one seat in Scotland. It's beginning to look like Labour is about to go the same way. Current projections suggest that they may end up with as few as four seats.

There is this thing that happens in Scotland when a political party does something we don't like.

We DESTROY THEM.

Why should we live under the rule of a body that does not represent us?

One of the results of this long term trend is that we now have our own Parliament. Labour gave it to us so as to buy our votes. Other developments that indicate our highly non-tactical and highly successful voting strategy include the recent referendum - Holyrood (Scottish Parliament) was set up as STV (single transferable vote) so that the SNP couldn't ever get in with an overall majority and take Scotland out of the UK. This has failed totally, the SNP gained an overall majority at Holyrood and is going to expand that majority at the next GE.

Scotland has free university education. Scotland has a properly NON-privatised Health Service. The SNP is protecting this. Labour, across the UK, is trying to fuck it all over. They are hypnotised by the right and are desperately copying them as much as possible. It's going to be a disaster for them. They've abandoned the working man, and the working man can see this perfectly well for himself.

Perpetual triangulation has cost Labour it's ace - Scotland. Labour used to be able to rely on at least 45 MPs from Scotland every general election and could concentrate their strategy on England. Taking Scotland for granted has destroyed them.

Labour's self-absorption and corruption were as plain as day. Everyone could see for themselves that these people were career politicians and wanted nothing to do with them. The new guy who is about to take over as the Scottish Labour leader (you can tell that it's going to be him because despite the fact that there are two other candidates for the leadership thy are getting absolutely no coverage at all in stark contrast to articles all over the "lefty" press about the Golden Child) is called Jim Murphy and he is already regarded as a buffoon by the Scottish electorate as he ran up an expenses bill of £1mil over junk and spent 9 years at uni without ever getting a degree.

What's your point, sibelian?

My point is this, DU - TRIANGULATION ONLY WORKS UP TO A POINT.

Labour started covetting the votes of the wealthy South. They got so into this that they STOPPED covetting the votes of the rest of the UK - they abandoned the working class. They had to discipline the party to stay on message so they could be presentable to the other demographics. The result? They abandoned their core principles and and have now lost their base. The SNP rose up from the ashes (nobody took them seriously even 10 years ago) and took prominence.

In Scotland we don't vote for the left. We have no interest in "the left". We voted for a robust health service, free prescriptions, smaller class sizes and above all a government that represents the people. That these are considered "left wing" by political junkies is of no consequence, what label you slap on these processes for the sake of internet arguments is irrelevant, it's what actually HAPPENS that counts, not what you call it. We voted for a government that understands that a nation is the land and it's people first and it's ideology second.

When a political party starts taking it's own fate more seriously than that of the people it represents it starts to lose. When I started telling my lefty friends over here in Scotland that the ground was about to shift, there were numerous pseudo-intellectuals flinging out the utterly trivial observation that if you don't win you can't do anything, this is allllll backwards, backwards, BACKWARDS - it's the wrong way round, THIS is the reality:

IF YOU DON'T GIVE YOUR VOTERS WHAT THEY WANT, YOU CAN'T WIN.

Nobody owes anybody their vote.

The Labour party is losing because it stopped listening to people and started listening to politicians. THAT'S why they're losing. They stopped kicking the ball towards the goal and spent their entire force on forever kicking the ball towards each other. It's now well understood all over Scotland that the Scottish Labour party is nothing more than a branch office of Westminster (which is now utterly despised all over the UK) and thoroughly corrupt. If your voters don't get anything out of you, why should they vote for you? They owe you nothing. They are not your tools or your property.

During the referendum I could feel this palpable rage in the left in Scotland, this weird, twisted thing where somehow they owned Scotland and what was happening wasn't "fair"... Scotland was their toy. Scotland began to understand this. Scotland stopped playing.

So. Do you think the US and the Democrats are any different?

Supposing the Dems took a leap of faith and stopped believing that the US is inherently right wing? Supposing they lost interest in corporate lobby groups and the mainstream media and started concentrating on engaging with the populace directly , as the SNP did? You currently have no third party.

What if the Dems decided to BE the third party?

[villager]

1. I think the lesson is we have to figure out where our "SNP" is going to come from.

We already have our "Labour," busy triangulating and caving in to the economic elites and their "elected" rightwing Catamites...

[sibelian]

11. It took 80 years. EIGHTY.

You've got to be realistic about these things. If you're going to have a third party -

1. It MUST stick to its principles, it's the only option to get any votes at all
2. It must run on a package that has enough to appeal to all demographics while NEVER compromising on its core stance
3. It must actually HAVE core principles or nobody will ever vote for it
4. At ALL TIMES it must campaign for power devolved AWAY from the centralised structures as that is A. the only way they can hold onto any power and B. A DAMN GOOD idea, anyway. 90% of the hot air coming out of the mouth of the two-headed monsters that plague two party systems across the globe is supported by the centralisation of their influence, take away the centralisation and the two party problems start to melt away. It disingenuous to suppose that governments need strong majorities to get things done, coalition is the norm in Europe, and European democracy works just fine, thank you, as anyone can see perfectly well for themselves from a cursory examination of the patterns that play out in democracies globally.

It's completely wrong to suppose that the patterns that play out in any particular democratic system are intransigent or peculiar to that system, almost all democracies go through periods of flux.

America has a peculiar problem, it's ideologically isolated from other democratic systems, so it never learns from them. There's nothing going on in Europe that isn't entirely possible in the US, the only reason it doesn't is because everyone simply assumes that it can't.

The root of the idea that there is only one way to play democracy in the US is unanalysed American Exceptionalism and it's wrong.

My suggestions to the Dems are many-fold:

1. FORGET about battling the mainstream media - it's a dead loss. Right wing pundits exist to oppose Dems. They aren't ever going to be on your side, ignore them. Beating them won't get votes. No-one cares.

2. I strongly suspect the Dem party leadership are already fully aware of all of this one, but it bears repeating. Educate the populace. Don't do it through the mainstream media. Start cooperating with the grassroots - get the grass roots to do your publicity - they will LEAP at the chance! Get over the snotty attitude to political activists. American left wing career politicians despise activists. It's a STUPID attitude. They're your media!!!!!. Establish strong working relations with the activist community so that activists and politicians can learn from each other. Activists need to KNOW what's achievable. Politicians need to be able to factor in the support of activists, in ALL its forms, into their campaign strategies they need to have the flexibility to depend on activisim. Trust needs to be re-established. A UNIFIED MESSAGE, from the grassroots to the offices of power, THAT'S what got Scotland so close to independence and it's also what's currently brings us to the foreground of UK politics. The head and the hands know what each other are doing. I was absolutely amazed when I saw gay people shouting at Obama about not doing enough, if the Dem party was working properly it would have sent representatives DIRECTLY to the activist hubs and started negotiating with them. What use to the left is an image of division? What use is a political movement whose head is severed from its body? Like I say, I bet the Dems know this, but they must not pass up ONE opportunity to get to activists and talk so that both the grassroots and the offices are working from the same page and BOTH sides need to be flexible. Mysterious wibblings and vague language leave your shock troops vulnerable to attack. Tell them the TRUTH.

The connection between grass-roots and the office was strong before Obama was elected. Now it's weak. That's STUPID. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Throwing away your biggest weapon! NEVER take your base for granted. NEVER.


3. STOP DOING RIGHT WING THINGS. Are you left wing or not? Forget the fucking NSA! Forget Afghanistan! Forget about using the world as a giant chessboard to pursue "American interests"!

The position enjoyed by America is a historical accident. It has NOTHING to do with any politician's policy. STOP setting up puppet governments STOP invading other people's countries, STOP lying about torture, STOP covering everything up, STOP playing games with how you've decided people are supposed to perceive you, STOP pretending to yourselves that everybody is STUPID. Even if they are stupid all it takes is ONE intelligent person to stand up and say: "uuuuuh, hang on", and all the stupid people will LISTEN because even they are stupid, nobody likes to FEEL stupid.

You CANNOT control how people perceive you. NO-ONE can control how they are perceived, that idea is BULLSHIT and it has always always, always been bullshit, and it's particularly true in the current era where the Internet can shoot a message across the globe in seconds. If you want people to perceive you as something... BE that something. Don't tell people what you are, BE what you are and let people see it for themselves. There is no instinct more finely attuned in the array of human cognitive processes than the part of ourselves that sees LIES. Sometimes it's wrong. It's over-wound, for sure. But if you give it ONE excuse to distrust you, YOU'RE TOAST. Resenting it is not going to make it go away. If someone else tell lies about you, get in front of the camera and shoot them down! NEVER let lies about you take hold!

Right. That was a great big ranty dump. I hope it makes sense...

[theHandpuppet]

28. Makes sense? It most certainly does.

Brava.

[Fred Sanders]

29. One intelligent strong person to say magic words and stand up? Guess it helps if you are not black.......

And live in a racially homogenous country, then you can play pure politics without the fucked up background of a nation of fucked up racial haters that vote their hate, fuck the issues.

[sibelian]

42. Obama got a landslide.

Presumably no-one had seen him until he made is inaugural speech?

[villager]

54. It's a day -- decade, century -- for ranty dumps!

Thanks for yours!

[Odin2005]

64. A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

[Odin2005]

63. I'm pushing Socialist Alternative, for what it's worth.

They are pushing the $15/hr minimum wage HARD.

[RiverLover]

2. Good points, but does Scotland have a Fox "News"

that literally spews extreme right wind propaganda 24/7? It can't be overstated how influential they are here. Their viewers get emotionally hooked and identify with their skewed news & THEY VOTE. I know this because I talk to the Foxbots every day in my job and most of my extended family buys into their lies.

[sibelian]

3. The London mainstream media had basically NO positive coverage for independence

and we came within 400,000 votes from winning, that's less than the population of UK town Preston.

We went from 30% o 45% in, like a MONTH with NO MAINSTREAM SUPPORT AT ALL. This had nothing to do with the mainstream media, it was social media that brought this about, and a colossal SPONTANEOUS grassroots campaign.

Independence for Scotland is now a very serious proposition. People are talking about another referendum in 10 years , or even less.

I think banging your head against the media is like perpetually charging the portcullis when castle only actually has one wall... The media don't matter, it's the population that matters, and they are no more convinced by the media than you are. You mustn't allow yourself to believe that Americans are stupid.

[RiverLover]

5. Inspiring stuff. Thanks for sharing here!! ~nt

[Odin2005]

65. The Brits have the Daily Mail, which is almost as bad.

[sibelian]

69. Salmond banned the Daily Mail from attending his resignation speech.

And the Telegraph...

[Odin2005]

73. NIIIIICE!!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. I think it's always hard to take lessons from UK politics and apply them to the USA

because of the billions spent on political advertising and campaigning in the US. It makes it a completely different environment, and the Citizens United and McCutcheon Supreme Court decisions make it even worse.

As an example, Colorado, with a population of a bit over 5 million - about the same as Scotland - just spent $97 million on their Senate race. $3.67 billion in total for all the congressional races this time.

And the media is no antidote to the tsunami of money. Nearly all of it depends on that advert money to makes its profits in election years, so it's quite happy to push a 'horse race' narrative based on how much advertising is being done. It's rare for any American media interview to be as blunt with an established politician as some British interviewers will be. If they have money, they get respect and an easy ride, however extreme or dumb they are.

Americans do have a primary system, which in theory allows them to put up less centrist candidates while still running for the 2 established parties. But any movement for that needs to overcome the money. The Tea Party managed it, because it had Big Money behind it. The apathy of Americans in the mid-term elections (always a low turnout) does not point to a mass of people waiting for a more left wing Democratic party to emerge. There's no lower level of elected officials at which people outside the 2 party system are successful anywhere more than a handful of isolated examples. The 2 party system is more entrenched in the USA than any other democracy, and the freedom to throw money at elections dominates it.

[Scootaloo]

13. No, it's really not

The basics are universal.

People want homes. People want productive work. people want education for their children. People want health care for their families. People want assurance of good food, clean water, and warmth. These are constants.

Money sets tripwires, yes. Bu that can only slow, it can't stop. Tell the truth, Work for what people want. It's a sad truth that we are the most powerful nation on earth and absolutely none of those needs are a given here. Can you imagine, we spend billions maintaining weapons that can destroy all life on earth a few hundred times over, but we can't keep our own people housed and fed.

Votes trump money. That's part of the beauty of our system, is that, whe nyou really bring it down to the ground, it's still, and always, one vote for one person. All money does is put static into the message. The solution is to strengthen the signal.

[theHandpuppet]

16. I'll second that

Well said.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. People want those things for themselves

but they're not necessarily worried about whether others get them. So:

6/6-9/14 "Overall, do you support or oppose the Affordable Care Act, often called Obamacare?"
If oppose: "Do you oppose the law because it went too far, or because it did not go far enough?"

Support 39%
Oppose: Too far 42%
Oppose: Not far enough 11%
Unsure 8%

http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm

"Votes trump money". But money is doing more than just being 'static'; the signal gets out with money, not despite of it. Where, in the USA, are the left wing politicians getting elected? Bernie Sanders. Kshama Sawant. That's about it. The American system is not 'beautiful', it's very, very ugly. Ask any developed country if they wish their political system was more like the American one, and they'll fall about laughing.

To come back to whether Scottish political lessons can apply to the USA, remember that in Scotland, Labour used to have a large lead - it was clear that the previous Labour policies had been popular there. But Labour, in Britain as a whole, moved to the right to try to take votes from the Tories in England (and that worked; 3 elections in a row won). That opened up the space, in Scotland, for the SNP. But in England, this has not happened. Currently, the rising party in England is UKIP which is to the right of the Tories - the equivalent of the Tea Party, wanting less immigration and welfare, and mistrusting any foreigner. You can't automatically take what happened in Scotland and apply it to England under the same electoral system, let alone to the USA.

[Thespian2]

44. What if

you had a progressive party with established offices in all fifty states. Offices that would connect with people and help them solve problems. Progressives who cared about the communities every day. Progressives who won local and state elections. Progressives who respected people. What if?

All the media and Koch-sucker money couldn't stop them.

It just won't happen in 'Murica.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. You seem to have answered your own question, at the end

I think you are right - it won't happen. I think the continued domination of money, through media advertising (TV now, net-based in the future), and for manipulation of internet social networks, will stop it. I also think it would take generations for Americans to move significantly to the left. See the chart in #40 for an example of the current problem. Most Americans still love capitalism and individualism.

[Spazito]

59. Add to that, the UK is a parliamentary system of governance which...

works quite differently than the American system of governance.

[lovemydog]

6. Thank you Sibelian. I agree.

The democratic party had better listen and listen well to average progressive Americans who want them to be much more progressive. Not mealy mouthed corporate shills.

Your football analogy is quite apt. Stop playing only defense. The more you shoot the more you will score. Most corporate democrats are way too smug and arrogant for my taste. They need to really get out of the way. Make room for the Bernie Sanders, the Elizabeth Warrens, the Alan Graysons of our party.

Unfortunately in this country the left is pretty dispirited and too often publicly project a stance of resignation & defeatism. Unlike republicans, they constantly seem to tell everyone who will listen that there is no point in voting. That's defeatist bullshit, in my humble opinion.

I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

Go progressives. Keep articulating that your ideas and policies are best for working Americans.

[Liberalynn]

7. Will they let me move there?

I'm 52 and disabled. Admittedly not a great recruit.

[sibelian]

19. Dunno. Maybe!

It would have been much more likely if we'd gained independence. Scotland's under-populated - we WANT immigrants.

[Fawke Em]

60. Really?

I'm still of working age and I come from both Irish and Scottish immigrants.

I'd love to move there. Is there work? If so, what kind?

[theHandpuppet]

8. One of the most dead-on OPs I've read in quite some time

You nailed it.

Although the current situation you've described is applicable nationwide, I feel your words are especially apropos to those of us in Appalachia. In fact, I'm going to post a link to this thread to one we've started in Appalachia group.

[Loki]

9. Sorry

Scotland has one thing we don't, people with functioning brains.

[whathehell]

10. Obviously, you've never been to Scotland..

and btw, I can't speak for your brain, but mine functions very well, thank you.

[sibelian]

20. What you have just done here

is post an assumption about your countrymen on a public website for the entire nation to see.

Why would anyone vote for a political movement that regards them as stupid? Everyone knows that liberals think that people who aren't liberals are stupid. There is a difference between being stupid and being wrong. Lots of very intelligent people get lots of things wrong.

Is convincing yourself that you're surrounded by fools really such a great vote-winner?

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be a bit blunt here, are you SURE they're stupid? Or is that supposition just something that makes you feel clever? In the parlance of the board - just sayin'. (I hate that phrase).

I've met a number of American conservatives. They are NOT stupid.

Even if Americans are uniquely stupid, that's no reason to suppose they have to vote for the right. Lots of VERY stupid people vote for left wing politicians. Believe me, I've met them.

[Loki]

32. Let me be perfectly clear

The people of Kansas, my neighboring state, voted to keep Governor Brownback in office for another term. He has basically defunded public education with massive tax cuts for the rich while the states bond rating has been downgraded twice and numbers have just come out with another multi million dollar shortfall in tax revenues. They have had to close schools in that state forcing students in rural areas to be bussed great distances to other area schools. Job creation is non existent and yet they returned him to office for more of the same. Ignorance is a changeable dynamic, stupidity is not, and in Kansas, I don't know what else to call it.

[watoos]

41. Exactly

and the people of Florida just voted a second term for its governor whose company committed the greatest Medicare fraud in the history of Medicare. I agree with you Loki, and the key is the corporate controlled M$M enables this to happen.

Oh and we haven't had a discussion about our electronic voting machines.

[Scootaloo]

12. So much good sense packed into just one post. +1000

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Well... Look at which Democrats won yesterday....

By and large, it seems like unabashed Dems wone and triangulators lost.

QED.

[Scootaloo]

18. I'd suggest making that info into a well-linked OP, Manny

It obviously will never sink into the heads of our resident right-lighters... but it's good to have such info dumps

[sibelian]

22. THAT'S what I thought.

I echo the sentiment of OPing this.

America is a right wing country but that does NOT mean that Americans are a right wing PEOPLE. It's primarily because you have two right wing parties.

[TBF]

31. ^ This -

When big business is funding both parties the people realize that and look to what is different. Right now the only difference is cultural. So they picked the culture they are most comfortable with. They like their churches, hunting (guns), etc.

In the past the left in the US had labor unions in which people could bond. My dad was a member of a trade union in the 1970s. They all bonded together and realized they were more powerful together. But those unions have been decimated (because the republicans realized the power of unions and worked to destroy them while building up the churches instead).

Good OP.

[midnight]

15. Thanks for this insight.

[peacebird]

17. We were in Scotland the day after the vote, I had really hoped Yes would win.

That said, the Dems are too deeply tied to their corporate masters now, just like the repubs. Ever since Clinton and the evil DLC took over the party has been consistently moving to the right. They throw the base crumbs on a few social issues but then offer up the social safety net to the gods of austerity while spending increasing amounts on spying (nsa) and military

It may be time to break with the dems and go for a fresh start. I do not know. I do know I am tired of voting for DLC shills like Mark Warner....

[sibelian]

49. Yes. The money. And the military... and the spying.

Firstly, the American problems of excessive military spending and the spying mess and covering up torture and all that stuff are clearly problems that encompass the entire system. I think they might be the last blocks to fall. It's going to be really difficult to reduce military spending because the economies of entire states are dependent on it.

I firmly believe that a stronger left wing is available and I think it's not necessarily a good idea to abandon the Dems, I think what's necessary is to CHANGE the Dems. Again, I think they need to become the "third party". There's not really any space for a third party, but there IS space for new ideas.

[watoos]

21. I see too many obstacles in the U.S.

to make me agree with the post.

I don't know that much about Scotland and the UK but I believe they limit the time candidates can campaign. I also don't know if Scotland permits unlimited campaign contributions, campaign contributions from anonymous sources? Studies show that the candidates who spend the most money win 94% OF THE TIME.

Our 300 pound gorilla in the room is our M$M. Our M$M is not only favorable toward Republicans, it is owned, it is complicit with Republicans, it enables working people to be brainwashed to vote against their interests. This can not be overstated. All of our M$M is complicit with the Republican right wing agenda.

The Republican strategy for the mid term election was to make the election a referendum on Pres. Obama and Harry Reid. For this strategy to work, Pres. Obama and Harry Reid had to be demonized, had to be excoriated, and our M$M, not just Fox all of cable news, enabled this strategy to work.

The political process is different in the UK, there are restrictions and time limits in the U.K. where in the U.S. there are not. The point that actions speak louder than words, that politicians should be themselves sounds nice, but we have a large group of working class people who have been brainwashed into fighting for the tower dwellers agenda. With a majority Congress, with the help from the brainwashed working people, Republicans are going to push to eliminate Social Security, Medicare, pass the TPP (which will circumvent our national and state's sovereignty) and we have one thing to combat this upcoming onslaught, our President's pen.

Sorry, but that's what I believe. In the U.S. candidates like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who speak from their hearts, who speak for the working man and woman, are demonized, are lied about (it is legal for our M$M to lie) by our M$M. Things are different in the U.S. and if the tower dweller agenda gets any kind of challenge, they have our Supreme Court, bought and paid for, to straighten things out. Rant off. By the way, I hope I'm wrong about everything I wrote.

Oh, and I forgot to add, gerrymandering voting districts. Explain how to overcome gerrymandering?

[sibelian]

24. Game's rigged? START YOUR OWN GAME.

We came within 400,000 votes (That's NOTHING, 6%, practically a win) of gaining INDEPENDENCE, dude, not a left-wing government but fill-on INDEPENDENCE, through nothing more than grass-roots coverage and people paying attention.

"The Republican strategy for the mid term election was to make the election a referendum on Pres. Obama and Harry Reid. For this strategy to work, Pres. Obama and Harry Reid had to be demonized, had to be excoriated, and our M$M, not just Fox all of cable news, enabled this strategy to work."

Then the left needs to stop cooperating with the MSM.

If you think Obama and Reid were demonised, you should have seen what they were saying about Salmond and Sturgeon. Seriously. "You want your haggis and eat it" "You don't care about hospitals because you haven't any children" "You're a liar" "You're a conman" "You have no plan" "Why should we trust you"... they didn't respond to a single thing he said, so he ignored them in return and put out his OWN message. He didn't pass up a single opportunity to get HIS point across in EVERY interview. He allowed no-one to define him. He defined himself.

The right makes NO OPENING SALLY that it thinks it can't win. They choose their battlegrounds carefully, for good reasons. You need to forget about their battlefields.

Salmond allowed NO-ONE to frame ANY PART OF THE DEBATE. He played his own game. That's what brought hum from 20% to 6% away from victory.

His party is now the dominant force in Scottish politics. Nothing will happen in Scotland now without reference to the SNP. 10 years ago it was a joke party. Now they're the boss. With no media representation AT ALL.

And if you think that lying about politicians is somehow unique to the States, you're just wrong. Lies about the Yes to Independence campaign were growing out of the fucking walls.

[watoos]

30. Oh we tried to start our own game

it was called Occupy Wall Street. Did you happen to see what happened to OWS?

OWS was taken down by our Homeland Security, NSA, CIA, state and local militarized police forces. All of the might of the U.S. was used to crush peaceful protests.

Again I say this can not be overstated, while this was going on, our M$M was helping to take down OWS. To this day I have brainwashed working folks tell me that OWS was just a bunch of hippies who pooped in the streets, now where did they get that idea?

Our problem isn't lying politicians, our problem is lying politicians who have the M$M to agree with them, to propagate their lies.
Our problem, and I hate to do this, I don't know quite how to say it respectfully, but our people are being dumbed down, being brainwashed.

America once had our own Salmond. He spoke from the heart, he spoke for the people, he let no one frame him, he brought a mood of hope and cooperation to our country. He planned on ending the Vietnam war, on dismantling the CIA, and the Fed. He was John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and the CIA(maybe) killed him. When they killed JFK, it was the beginning of the end of our democracy. Today's politicians who want to emulate JFK, or Salmond, have to be very brave. I hope we have someone step up to the plate.

[sibelian]

37. Sigh. OWS...

It's no use camping in public squares.

That changes NOTHING.

The Yes campaign couldn't have been more different...

[watoos]

45. I'm sorry but I don't get your point then

OWS was doing something very important, it was changing the narrative. It was telling the truth about who and what caused our markets to crash. Wall Street caused our crash, stole our money, and then blamed poor home owners who couldn't pay their mortgages.
OWS was changing the narrative from our national debt to income inequality. You talk about not playing defense but the M$M controls the narrative, if MSNBC is talking about our national debt, talking about how much our deficit has been reduced and puts a liberal slant to the discussion, we are losing, we are playing defense. It is more important for our country to be spending money now on rebuilding our bridges, power grids, infrastructure, renewable energy. If we are talking about reducing the deficit, about balancing the budget, that is code words for me that working folks are going to take another hit.

Maybe I'm a bit paranoid because I just got done rereading Fahrenheit 451 and I think that Bradbury had a very clear vision where our country was headed. We aren't a country of dreamers anymore.

[sibelian]

46. IT WORKED.

OWS WON. They won the war of IDEAS. The concept of the 1% is now in full view, everyone gets it. Everyone knows!

One of the reasons the SNP got so close to victory is BECAUSE of OWS!!!!! OWS ACHEIVED their goal, and that's why they fizzled out, not because they were beaten down, but because they WON and there was NOTHING LEFT TO DO. They ran out of steam because they WON, not because they lost!!!! They won hands down!!!!! All you have to do is start again with the NEXT problem. The strategy works!!! DEMONSTRABLY it works. How can you think of it as a failure?

OWS was not for changing elections, it was for changing the POPULACE. AND they DID IT. They didn't change the rest of the political landscape because they didn't ENGAGE with rest of the political landscape.

I am sorry. I should have been clearer - when I reflexively posted "sitting in camps changes nothing" what I really should have said is "sitting camps changes nothing in the democratic process". The Yes campaign engaged directly with a democratic process, they were completely different.

I regard OWS as significantly more successful than the Yes campaign! They didn't change politics, they changed PEOPLE. MUCH harder. Who cares who called the hippies? It only matters if they were trying to get elected! They weren't!

pantpantpant sorry, ranting

[JonLP24]

68. they didn't respond to a single thing he said, so he ignored them in return and put out his OWN mess

Kinda what Sinema did in my district. Didn't run a distancing or opposite campaign but her own campaign.

[sibelian]

70. I don't know about her, did it work?

?

[JonLP24]

71. She won by 12%

but to be fair her opponent had some gaffes, including skipping out on a debate.

She did move to the center but didn't see a key change on liberal issues, nor pander on the Arizona wedge issues -- http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Kyrsten_Sinema.htm

I posted a summary but still haven't drawn conclusions on future midterm strategy, your thread gives me the best idea though.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025771285

[sibelian]

72. THAT'S what I'm talking about

[mylye2222]

23. K&r to this powerfull Op.

And nit only in Scotland.
Same here in France.
The far right party Front National has on social and economical isses, a far more lefty platform and memes than the social dems in power. ....Although we kniw all nationalists are liars and fraud....people are already intoxicated by their populism.

[sibelian]

25. I don't know much about Front National...

Let me ask you something - ARE they liars? Have they perpetrated any fraud? Anything they've been caught out on? For years I despised the SNP. Then they got into power and turned out to be truth-tellers. They only get in if they don't fuck up. They can rely on nothing so they HAVE to get it right. This is an observation I have made to many on the left here in Scotland.

[mylye2222]

27. They are currently proving their lying

aptitudes in the city concils they took over last march.
We heard stories of opponent harrasment , corruption and funds hijacking, abd xeniphobic mesures localy.

[sibelian]

35. That is sad to hear.

For ourselves in Scotland, we are lucky. A lot of the SNP core membership is diehard left, totally anti-racism. Also, the SNP must position itself as an alternative to Labour, so cannot afford any corruption.

Scotland has for years had something of an inferiority complex and we have noticed that the SNP wish to throw that inward-looking myopic "we're too wee, we cannae dae it" attitude out of the water, that seems to be their core value. They appeal to the sense of opportunity and possibility that ordinary people wish to feel in their lives. It seems to me that we are currently in the hands of genuinely honourable people. They don't want to fuck it up. They genuinely love Scotland. They don;t want power for it;s own sake... they want Scotland to win! It's a good time for us.

Perhaps our good fortune is a historical accident that will be difficult to replicate elsewhere... but I don't want to believe that. I want the positivity that has blossomed in our little nation to be available everywhere. There MUST be a crack in the game that can accommodate people power, or the game just starts to rot and fall into a navel-gazing junkyard of lies and image-manipulation... And I think that if my silly, cuddly, lopsided little nation can manage it then surely ANYBODY can.

I'm not sure how long it will last. Power ossifies rapidly into complacency and corruption. In Scotland, we destroy the complacent. We have always been poor. We cannot allow politicians to take advantage of us.

Politicians in Scotland almost never receive the adulation and unanalysed trust that appears to be the norm elsewhere in the world. As far as we're concerned, the politicians are on our side or they aren't politicians any more.

[Nay]

26. Thank you. A source of endless frustration is the assertion around here

that we have to work to elect ANY! Democrats, no matter how foul or Republican they are, just because. Folks, elected Democrats who act like Republicans when in office are no better than electing Republicans outright. In fact, it's worse -- why? Because then everyone moves more and more rightward as the years go on, until we get someone like Obama who appoints Republicans to the Treasury, lauds people like Arne Duncan who is dismantling public education, says he's willing to 'reform' SS, and thinks that yet another disastrous 'trade' agreement like TPP is just what we workers need (never mind the wars, the drones, the surveillance). Nixon, a hated Republican, is way to the left of Obama! The strategy of electing RW democrats is fatally flawed.

As Sibelian has suggested, we have to stop playing their game. We simply have to stop, no matter the consequences, because what we are doing now IS NOT WORKING.

[watoos]

34. I agree with your post

but ponder this; if someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren were to step up and challenge Hillary, think about how the M$M will treat them. Warren or Sanders will speak for the American people, will speak from their hearts, but they will have to overcome the distortions that our M$M will throw at them. It will be a mountain to climb for one of those two people just to beat Hillary in the primary. Once they make it past the primary they will face a ship load, not a boat load, of money thrown against them, and they will have the M$M to contend with. I believe it can be done, but it is going to take a very brave soul to buck the system.

[Nay]

39. Of course neither of them will win, if they run. But neither of them is afraid to

shout out the populist messages that people need to hear. We have to finally invest in the long game -- get truly progressive ideas out there so they have a chance to penetrate this dumbass culture we have. If we have no 'brave souls' to talk back to Republican idiocy, then it doesn't matter one whit how many DINOs we elect.

[ctsnowman]

33. Thanks for the post.

[Shireling]

36. Good ideas, sibelian

Thanks so much for your encouraging post.

I think the problem here in the U.S. is that the majority of people lack momentum and are afraid to speak their minds. They are afraid to be unique, afraid to be different from the rest of the sheep.

Here, social media is all about "me" and getting people to click "like" and "like me". We post "selfies" (pictures of ourselves doing things that we hope other people will envy). This is how we "belong". This is our social net.

Taking a strong stand on issues isn't about making people envy "me". We are not playing the "me" game.

So the "me" people think "Oh, that's boring" and delete us.

The "envy me" thing is very strong here. The shallowness is very hard to break through.

But building a strong base and working the way you describe is the only way we can work now, because the airwaves are owned by the right wing.

If we could get people to stop playing the shallow game, your strategy might work.

[Thespian2]

38. America

has three parties: Republicans. DLC (Third Way), and Progressives. The Progressives have not found a way to connect with real people in all 50 states. The DLC spouts a load of useless shit (out of fear), leaving the purchase of the governments to Repulikochs. If the Beltway Dems continue to control what is left of the party; Bye, America. Look for the Keystone pipeline to continue its run through the country; look for expanded use of Fracking; look for the RepubliKochs to continue grinding ordinary people into useful slaves. Etc. I forgot the big one. The RepubliKochs could impeach Obama. Unfortunately, we would still be stuck with Biden.

I really cannot understand how Dems continue to wallow in their own stupidity. The only examples you need look at is Mitch, Joni. How the Dems lost those races is evidence that there is no Democratic party. Don't blame those loses on money. Blame it on running weak candidates who had very little chance to win, then running poor campaigns.

[sibelian]

43. YES. The connection between Dems and progressives needs to be STRENGTHENED.

The Dems must stop pulling away from the Progressives. They think they own the base. They don't! The Progressives are the core power structure of the Left's base!

[liberal_at_heart]

48. Great post. Thank you. K&R.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

50. We can't even contemplate such a plan without decent leadership. Our party leadership

sucks ass!

It's not going to happen, at least not with the idiots running our party. When an idiot named Reince Priebus can beat us, that says all that needs saying about our party leadership.

[sibelian]

51. Yeah, WHY is that, though?

Who controls the party leadership?

Salmond got into the drivers seat because the SNP recognised his talent. He took them out of the dark and into the light. Where is the talent recognition machine on the left in the US?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

52. I really can't tell you who controls the party "leadership" because we

we don't have any leadership.

[sibelian]

53. Well, that's bad, then!

Not seeing how a political party can expect the support of a grass roots that doesn't have any investment in who leads it! Also not seeing how a political party can expect to win without grass roots! Who's supposed to fix this?

[Rex]

55. You just don't get it - that is the way the PTB WANT it to stay!

They don't want to fix anything - for THEM, everything is coming up roses! If you lived in a plutocracy you would understand better - to keep stealing trillions from the populace, you need to keep them confused and scared of the future which is EXACTLY what the mainstream media does...with the blessings of the ownership society.

[sibelian]

62. Rex, the reason I don't live in a plutocracy is because we didn't vote for one.

I struggle to see your point, here.

Unless, of course, you're agreeing with the general sentiment across the board that triangulation doesn't work? In which case I'm unsure how you think you've contradicted me.

If you treat the democratic system as nothing more than a series of options being handed to you then of COURSE the powerful will start to limit the menu.

[Rex]

67. Start? It is over, the powerful control the entire system.

I didn't vote for one either, but here I sit in one. I guess my point goes over your head, no big deal that happens to me too.

[woo me with science]

56. K&R

[theHandpuppet]

57. Apparently y'all have upset some of your neighbors down south.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/odd/alex-salmond-guy-to-be-burnt-in-lewes-bonfire-1-3595292

[sibelian]

61. lawlz!

To be fair to Lewes, they have a habit of burning effigies of politicians. Angela Merkel ended up on that fire not so long ago. Anyway, Alex himself has responded in his usual style...

About 1:29 in. Class!

Lots of Nats are very peeved over here in cuddly Scotland, however... not all of us are as phlegmatic about it as he is. Apparently the bonfire society have now said they didn't want t cause offense!

[BrotherIvan]

58. This is the BEST post I have read on DU

It's quite telling that the third wayers are here saying it's not possible, naive, blah blah blah. Your post proves that it is possible. And you know who else proved it? OBAMA. Obama ran as a liberal; he ran on change and people voted for it as well as giving him a majority. Liberals running in this election won. People voted for liberal bills, even in states where they voted for Republicans. People want what liberals have to offer. The trouble is, Democrats keep acting like being a liberal is a bad word, and their supporters think hippie punching and scolding is the way to get votes.

Thank you for your post. I hope people read it. It is the way forward.

[JonLP24]

66. Amen!!

In Scotland we don't vote for the left. We have no interest in "the left". We voted for a robust health service, free prescriptions, smaller class sizes and above all a government that represents the people. That these are considered "left wing" by political junkies is of no consequence, what label you slap on these processes for the sake of internet arguments is irrelevant, it's what actually HAPPENS that counts, not what you call it. We voted for a government that understands that a nation is the land and it's people first and it's ideology second.

That is the way it should be.

[SMC22307]

74. In light of the recent election, K&R.