I'll Just Say It Now -- Hillary Can't Win

[Dems2002]

I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I think she's a genius and that she genuinely cares about the country. While it takes a healthy ego to run for President, I believe that she wants to serve. She and Bill have made their money. She could go sit on a beach and travel the world and live in luxury for the rest of her life. If she runs, I believe she's doing so because she believes she'll be doing the most good that she can. And she really wants to be President.

But I don't think she can win. And if she does win, it'll be a squeaker, and her coattails will be nonexistent. Forget taking back the House (a long shot no matter what) or even Senate.

Dark money, voter suppression and extreme attacks will be the order of the day. The Koch brothers and their ilk are going to see this election as the opportunity to fully cement their mandate to rape and pillage this country. A corporate democrat who's been in the public face for over twenty years isn't going to stand a chance.

In order for us to defeat the Republicans, a strategy of compromise and triangulation isn't going to do jack. We need a party leader who is willing to call out the other side on populist issues. We need a candidate who is going to run in favor of expanding, not decreasing, social security and medicare, someone who's going to run on eliminating the crushing debt saddling our children as they strive to achieve the supposed American Dream of a college education even as they end up working at Mickey D's or Walmart. We need someone who's going to run on the promise of throwing the real criminals in jail -- the people who prey on the elderly and poor, and rob our 401ks in order to buy themselves a nice boat. Someone who's going to run on revitalizing the American Promise at home and to the world by investing in our infrastructure, rebuilding our schools and roads and not our jails.

I am not advocating for any one particular candidate. I am advocating for a candidate with a vision and a message. And I am advocating for our 501c4s to start investing in a narrative of historical truth telling. I want a series of ads showcasing past leaders standing up to the rich and the powerful on behalf of the poor and the middle class. I want to hear from Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, LBJ, Barbara Jordan, the Kennedys, and also toss in Teddy Roosevelt and Richard Nixon to show how far our country has gotten off track.

We need to inspire and showcase that real change is possible, but it's not easy and the malefactors of great wealth will do everything possible to destroy us both from within and without. But there is precedent, we've done it before and we can do it again.

Minimum wage bills won in landslides in conservative states. People know that they are getting screwed and it's hard to make a living and that they are falling further behind. If we ignore this in favor of the rich elites we deserve to lose. We are the party of the people. It's time that our next party standard bearer carries this mantle with pride.

[northoftheborder]

1. I also want to hear those kinds of words....whoever says them gets my vote, even if it's HRC.

[onehandle]

2. Hillary can, and will win if she runs. And women will give her Massive coattails. nt

[woodsprite]

10. Not by this woman's vote during any primary

If she was the Democratic nominee, I'd vote for her because it would be the less chancy of the two.

[MoonchildCA]

82. I second that...

...on both counts.

[bread_and_roses]

168. Nor this woman's - and not in the general either

I am in my 60's and yes, I'd like to see a woman President before I die - but I would never, under any circumstances, vote for Hillary Clinton. Bankster Bud and Cluster Bomb supporter. No. Never.

[broiles]

177. I'm with you. Not even in the general. I'll vote green.

[PatrynXX]

96. ahem

the black vote was supposed to go to Hillary in droves. But because she pretended to be someone else. this other guy called Obama got it. If she goes with the above she'll lose the primary again I have serious doubts she'll win the primary let alone the nomination for the Republican party . X_X

[Beacool]

147. Please...........

Once Obama won IA the black vote was never going to go to Hillary. Who are you kidding?

[Phlem]

99. She's 3rd way.

Just like Bill Clinton, and President Barack Obama. Obama is not the same man that was running for position of President. He had a populist message which turned out to be a lie. That's what Hillary is doing right now. Copying Elizabeth Warrens populist rhetoric which comes sincere from Elizabeth but not what Hillary has planned.

I would love a female president, my first choice is an actual Democrat not Republican lite.

[Phlem]

113. The third way

just needs to go join the Republican party instead of trying to control the dialogue of Democratic Liberal party.

Maybe after that we can move towards progress. Why did progressive legislation win big last night and why did the 3rd way seats that were up for re-election lose.

People want progressive, populist ideas and answers but the Democratic Party instead showed the base how they can be more like the other guy.

Therefor answering the question, there's no difference between the 2 parties even though everyone here in DU knows there is.

Why have we run away from our long standing principles? The answer, money.

When it's all about money and power guess what kind of crowd your going to attract, people really concerned about governing and the United States?

I don't think so

[sabrina 1]

142. The Third Way are not Democrats. They are far right on almost every issue, using women and

minorities to try to appear to be liberal. The problem with that is, it's almost stereotypical now for people pretending to be Dems, even on internet forums, to latch on to those issues to try to gain creds. But people are no longer fooled by that tactic.

I could not agree with you more, the Third Way infiltrators need to go back to the Republican Party where they belong.

And we need to send them there and replace them with real Democrats who support Democratic issues. I will not support Hillary Clinton.

I WOULD, however, support Barbara Lee, one of the bravest women in the Dem Party.

[nilesobek]

155. I didn't even know about Third Way Democrats

until I joined Democratic Underground. I always called them, "Conservolibs." My definition of a Conservolib was a voter who holds a liberal pet issue or two, but beyond that, they are extremely conservative with the rest of their views. Basically, they are neo-cons with that one or two exceptions. There is a lot of it going around lately.

One or two liberal social issues that a Conservolib can meet a real Democrat with halfway does not make that person a liberal. It isn't hard to see how the Party was infiltrated.

[NordicLeft]

201. Sherrod Brown, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Martin Heinrich, John Hickenlooper

Each one is vastly superior to Clinton. Brown has benefit of being from Ohio. Heinrich is a dark horse, and maybe ticketed as VP, but perhaps 2020 or 2024 (he is only 43).

[paulk]

208. Hickenlooper?

LOL

Hickenlooper is, as best, a moderate (Rockefeller) Republican.

[NordicLeft]

209. I stand corrected. Looked into him a lot more. He is not suitable.

Thanks for the feedback. This is why I come to an American forum.

Cheers from the EU

[7962]

194. Name a republican who can beat her? But I WILL say this,

she is her own worst enemy. She's got a temper that Bill didnt. She is more likely to harm her chances than any opponent. Either by deeds or words. IMO, of course!

[CoffeeCat]

148. Ask Iowans about Hillary Clinton...

Remember the 2008 Democratic primary when Hillary was the anointed one? Obama won the Iowa caucuses
and Hillary came in third.

Hillary was a horrible campaigner in my state of Iowa. She could not handle being real, speaking to people one-on-one and being genuine. Her campaign was a disaster and it was awkward. After being criticized for giving impersonal speeches to large audiences, she organized a Q&A with a smaller audience.

Turns out, the questions were from planted staffers who were scripted about what to ask.

Please, girlfriend.

Hillary can't get past Iowa. Democrats are very Progressive in Iowa. They don't want her. Republicans sure as hell aren't voting for her. Most of the Republicans here are batshit crazy (re: They just elected Ernst).

We need someone fresh, young and who is out of the establishment. We need true change.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

161. Not this woman.

[flamingdem]

170. +1 She's what the Dems have going for them (duh)

The OP is way off base and I suppose emotionally shellshocked?

[Faux pas]

202. Not this woman either, I'm

smarter than that. hrc is a rethug under all her 'bright and cheery' blather.

[sabrina 1]

203. Not this woman nor any Democratic woman I know. She supports the one thing is the most

devastating to women both here and all over the world, WAR!!!! No supporter of women supports our brutal wars. See the women of Iraq, Afghanistan the women of Pakistan after our drones destroyed their lives. Talk to women in the military who have been raped and abused and silenced, and then tell ME or any other woman, that anyone who supports WAR supports WOMEN. Women are the most devastated and traumatized victims of our Foreign Policies, which Hillary supports. She will not win. She certainly won't get the Conservatives to support her, and half of Dems will not support her.

Btw, where does she stand on the Chained CPI, on the Keystone Pipeline, on the Wall St Criminals still not prosecuted, speaking of women's issues btw.

Last I heard, she doesn't answer these questions.

And who will she appoint to her Cabinet?

No, Hillary cannot win. So we may as well move on and try to find someone who CAN.

[trueblue2007]

3. shut up

She most certain can win

[leftofcool]

36. She sure can and will beat any Republican the GOP wants to put up.

[JDPriestly]

86. No. She can't.

List the states you think she could win.

The Rove machine will make mince meat of her if she wins the nomination.

We need someone who can credibly run on a populist message and appeal to people across party lines. Remember. Republican rank and file think of their party as the anti-government and therefore populist party. They are completely wrong. Couldn't be wronger. But that is how they see it. Just because Chris Christie, for example is a nasty, rude, lying loudmouth, they think he has populist leanings.

We need a real populist to run as a Democrat.

The candidate needs some executive experience. I like Elizabeth Warren, but Bernie Sanders was the mayor of, I think, Burlington, Vermont and therefore has the executive and management experience that a president needs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. Karl Rove and his little machine ain't shit...

I'll put my money on Team Clinton any day against Karl Rove.


The states she could win??? She could win every state Barack Obama won in 2012 and I have empirical evidence to support in the form of polling to support my contention. Respectfully, all you have is heavily biased opinion.

[7962]

195. WHO does the GOP have that could beat her? WHO would get the Independents?

Cruz? Ryan? Christie? Bush? I dont see it. Not today anyway. We'll see who pops up in a year.
Although I would say if Jeb's last name wasnt Bush, he may have a chance at it.

[Iliyah]

198. Ummmmmm, lets see

Jeb, Christie, Rand, Jindal, Cruz to name a few.

Oh yea, voter suppression, United Citizens (dark money). But alas, the Clinton Machine has 2008 to learn from and with that, they have mucho money and clout. If she runs, I will work with her campaign. Also, presidential years Dems do come out to vote unlike 2010 and 2014 (lowest turn out since 1942).

The American people stayed home and now we have a fucked up un-caring loving 1-2% congress.

[7962]

199. You just named the same names That I said COULDN'T beat her.

Look at the polls. And money isnt an issue. The Clintons have plenty of money and resources for more.
The ONLY one I see who may pull in voters is Rand, if he distances himself from dad and keeps reaching out to the voters the GOP usually ignores. He's also hitting a note with the anti police militarization. But he'll have to start fast and work hard and be believable, and thats not gonna be easy.

[JDPriestly]

210. You are talking about polls today that show Clinton ahead.

That is a trap. The Rove insult and doubt machine has barely started on Hillary.

We need a person who is honest to the bone and whose message is so appealing to so many voters that it can overcome all the nasty ads Republican billionaires will pay to put on the media.

That is not Hillary. Even if she were to try to take a populist approach in her campaign, she would not be credible because Bill CLinton's record, the detrimental bills he signed (and there are a number of them) show that he did not defend working people nearly as much as it seemed when he was president.

Think of the ridiculous doubts cast on Obama's citizenship. Then picture a campaign in which Hillary's personality, her grudges, her penchant to blame others, her many personal weaknesses place her character in doubt. And she has no creds with regard to a populist message.

She has good name recognition now, but the times they have changed since Bill Clinton got by with gleefully signing bills like the Telecommunicatsions Act, NAFTA (not a very popular bill since it cost a lot of American jobs and did not help much in Mexico), etc.

[7962]

211. But most people look at the Clinton years fondly and would take him back for more.

Look at all those polls. The 90s were great. Obviously Hillary is NOT Bill, but a lot of people think that voting for her gets him in the co-pilot seat and thats fine with them.
But as I've said elsewhere, and you allude to here, I think she is her own worst enemy. Look at her recent "we were poor when we left the white house" gaffe. I see more of that on the horizon for her.
As for your "honest to the bone" candidate, I dont see any of them on the Dem side either. I know you have a Warren tag on your posts, but shes not bulletproof either.
Its Hillary's to lose. She just might, but I'd think it would be to another dem, like in 08, rather than a republican.

[Dems2002]

206. Why do they stay home?

People stay home because they think the system is rigged and not going to work for them. Turnout will obviously be higher in 2016 than 2014, but it probably won't match 2008 or 2012 without a stronger candidate who can inspire disaffected voters to actually go to the polls. Hillary doesn't do this. Second verse, same as the first.

[AngryAmish]

104. Finally, an intellectual voice of reason and debate.

[Beacool]

146. No more so than some of the other comments here.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

4. I'll just reply - Yes She Can!

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/11/05/beacon-hope-exit-polls-show-hillary-clinton-blowing-republicans-water.html

It’s a drag that the people are so easily fooled by what money can buy. But as we saw in 2012, dark money can’t buy the White House yet. And the blue wave is coming in 2016, with Republicans facing the exact same map situation as Democrats faced in 2014. And even worse, Hillary Clinton might be at the top of the ticket.

One of the interesting things that came out of last night’s blood bath was that even with Republicans winning, CBS Evening News’ exit poll showed that a by a large margin, the same voters that gave the GOP this win think Clinton will be a good president, whereas they were not so impressed with any of the Republican front runners.

[Dems2002]

15. Pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory

The Senate map is definitely in our favor next cycle, but we suffered a bigger loss than anticipated, so we will still have to work for it.

Hillary comes with a lot of baggage and a lot of deep seeded hatred amongst members of the Fox viewing audience. She is also simply not a very inspirational candidate to anyone other than Democratic party loyalists. While both demographics, the Fox audience and Dem loyalists are aging, she ran a pretty crappy campaign in 2007-08. Time and again she has worked with party hacks who have lost many more elections than they've won. The Clinton hate and sexism and lack of a compelling reason to vote for her make me see her as the candidate who will pull defeat out of the jaws of victory.

Plus, I strongly believe that we can and do deserve better.

[brooklynite]

17. Much better to run a small state Socialist in an election where half the voters are center-right?

BTW - what coattails did Bernie have this year?

[JustAnotherGen]

50. Step back and read the OP again

You are in a unique position. Use it here.

I was in that same position two Saturday's ago. I've posted #RunWithJanice more times than I ever could here knowing two Saturdays ago at the fundraiser in a home in central NJ that Booker attended - that we were going to lose in the 7th.

I never showed my hand on that at DU.

Research my posts. I never gave up.

My husband comes from a political family in Italy. If there is anything I've learned from his Zio Nicolo - a member of Beni's inner circle and one one of the true Senators For Life - you stick with it until its over. Until the man hangs - be an all out. His cousins in their equivalent of Fed Gov in the US house and sen. positions know that. Until we hang - we don't give up.

I commend you for that.

But you have an opportunity to bend ears.

Take that OP and bend ears. I intend to. The far left is telling us directly what we need to do to bring them in. My god - join no labels. We are idiots if we don't. They've tapped into something with the middle and have me hanging on evry word Jon Huntsman speaks.

It's going to have to be the right mix of middle to far left messages to sew a really really big tent in 2016. Our fellow leftists are suffering. She can't run the same campaign that she ran in 2008.

Oh yeah - and now - she's going to have one helluva of villain.

[Dems2002]

135. Which candidate did I actually suggest?

While i love and adore Bernie, the best thing I can see him doing is throwing his hat into the ring in order to become part of the debate process. I'd like to get his message out to a wider audience.

In terms of the best candidate -- my ideal ticket is probably Warren/Schweitzer although climate change issues may not be addressed if Schweitzer is on the ticket, so that's a definite issue/problem. I'm welcome to other suggestions and people I am not yet familiar with, including outsiders with some successful governing experience.

In terms of the demographics of this country, that's a very interesting thing to poll. People hate corporations. They feel like they're getting screwed. They don't trust government. But conservative states just voted to raise their minimum wages and both parties wanted to see Wall Street held accountable.

One of the reasons that Republicans have been successful against Democrats is that social welfare programs are deemed for others and not for thee. The more you can campaign on the programs that benefit everyone, like SS and Medicare, the stronger the support. One of the ways to strengthen support for additional programs is to do away with means testing for as many as possible.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

20. There's as much Clinton love among the electorate as Clinton hate

She has a stronger resume than any candidate out there at this time. She's been FLOTUS, Senator, and SecState.

You'll get no argument from me that she should have run a sharper campaign in 2008.

You'll get no argument from me that the Senate map is favorable next time out (Toomey, Portman, Johnson, Ayotte, and good odds McCain & Grassley will hang it up), but we have several aging Senators who have retirement odds somewhere between possibly & likely (Boxer, Mikulski, Reid, Leahy).

[JDPriestly]

88. Hillary has never had an executive position, not even mayor, much less governor.

Bernie Sanders has the most experience. Years in the Senate and prior to that as mayor of a city in Vermont.

Hillary Clinton has name recognition, but, unless you consider being a president's wife, government experience, she has very little.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

95. I assume you realize that Bernie Sanders has no chance of being elected President of the US

I've read your posts here for several years, and I know you to be a highly intelligent poster.

Sen. Sanders is a great guy, but America is not going to elect a Socialist (his term - not mine).

...and she was more like cabinet member without portfolio during thr Clinton years. She wasn't just playing hostess.

[JDPriestly]

98. Vermont was considered to be a fairly conservative state until Bernie Sanders showed up.

Bernie just has common sense, no matter what label he runs on. Americans are more than ready for a president with common sense who does not lie to them and does not take corporate money.

[Man from Pickens]

111. Indeed!

What matters less than ideological classification is having someone who actually understands what normal people are going through and is responsive to their needs, rather than to the demands of the endless flood of lobbyists that infest every office in Washington DC.

[RKP5637]

123. Quite true! And we need a radically different candidate, not the same warmed over approach. I think

Americans are ready for real change and that is to the left! I like Bernie! He is straight forward and pragmatic, not modifying his stripes as the wind blows.

Bernie's message is clear and consistent. That, is what this country needs, a clear and consistent message, pragmatic and no showcasing/grandstanding. I think a candidate like that could garner real support from all types of Americans.

I think the electorate today feels Washington and the cast of characters are full of BS and they are tired of it.

And I think many are frustrated that Obama was not the agent of change he campaigned on. Basically, we are better off than when he took office, but the system is the same, an oligarchical system.

[JDPriestly]

151. Thanks. Great post. Clear and Consistent like Bernie's message.

[ms liberty]

126. I agree. n/t.

[7962]

197. Many here would disagree with you. I don't.

The US just isnt THAT left.

[Megahurtz]

124. Hillary is Secretary of State

You don't call that an executive position?

Hillary has the experience, and she can win.

[Beacool]

149. Bullcrap!!!

What executive experience did Obama have when he decided to run in 2007? Oh yeah, two years in the Senate.

Sanders is an elderly Socialist. Only in liberal utopia could he win the White House.

You may not like Hillary, but she's the most qualified candidate the Democrats would have if she does choose to run.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

172. So Bernie Sanders is DU's Dennis Kucinich 2.0

This should be a fun two years.

[Beacool]

187. Apparently so..........

The concept of nominating someone who may actually have a chance in hell of winning the presidency seems to elude some around here. If Tuesday was needed as further confirmation, 2016 won't be like 2008. After 8 years of Bush almost any Democrat would have won in 2008. We may face the same situation but in reverse in 2016. It won't be a walk in the park to win after a Democrat held the WH for 8 years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

189. Two points

1) You can go back to 2000 and with the exception of Barack Obama there is a negative correlation between the support for a presidential candidate at DU and his or her support among the broader electorate.

2) I don't believe President Obama will be the albatross George Bush* was. In fact I expect his popularity to tick up a bit. And there won't be any financial crashes...

[Beacool]

207. Interesting.

I had never thought about point 1, but I hope that you are correct about point 2. That's what happened with Bill Clinton, the Republicans overstepped their mandate so much that Bill left the WH with the highest approval ratings of any other president in many years (including the sainted Ronnie). If Obama's popularity ticks up due to Republicans overzealousness, then Democrats will have a chance of keeping the WH in 2016.

[QuestionAlways]

69. Who would be better ?

Warren supports her
Sanders is a self-proclaimed Socialist, that will not scare anyone!!! Remember the one lesson from this election is people vote their fears.

Please give me a name, who people know.

[jtuck004]

85. Lol. The people in this country are scared shitless of socialists. They would line them

up and shoot them. Historically they have imprisoned and beaten and killed them. Socialists made them pee their pants.

Supporters of socialists know what they are about and vote for them, even if they are in prison. Try getting that kind of commitment from this sound bite generation.

[lunasun]

130. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

174. Yeah, it's just a tille, but most people run from it...

Yeah, it's just a tille, but most people run from it...including Democrats...

If Norman Thomas and Eugene Debs couldn't get elected in a more favorable atmosphere how is Bernie?


This is a DU fantasy. America, writ large, isn't the political science faculty of U C Berkeley and I would bet my liver the conventional Democrat and possibly even a Republican would get more votes than a (s)Socialist.


I don't want to spend 2016 explaining to America what a socialist is.

[jtuck004]

186. Business and the trade unions and government made sure that American would spit on

the name "socialist" and "communist" when they tied those together in crushing the Industrial Union workers in the late 1800's, and the same with the Red Scare as they moved into the early part of the last century. You are correct, it's just a title, and that one has been linked with deep-seated fears from a long time ago. They treat them like snakes - people attack without even bothering to find out that it is not poisonous, that it is actually doing some good around your place.

Funny, though, much as the election last night, people like the ideas, love the idea. But the Democrats spent the last 6 years letting the 10 million people drop into poverty, another 20-30 million move down to near poverty, (people are STILL liquidating 401Ks to live), wanting to be petted and praised for watching as business replaced tens of millions of good paying jobs with shit jobs, and enriching banksters beyond any record ever set in this country. Then the people didn't vote for them. Whouda thought it...

The Democrats want to piss and moan about people running away from the pres - tens of millions of people think the party ran away from them - and they responded in kind last night.

But Bernie doesn't really want to run, and the doesn't want to create a third party. He wants to create a 50 state effort to overturn Citizens United and get behind a Progressive slate of ideas.

That "org", for lack of a better word, becomes several million people who demand something, they can get it.

This is imminently doable. The parties can go play their games with people's lives, and a coalition of people will be built, just like any of the old fashioned organizers or the teabaggers, who learned from them how to organize. It's a better option than working with the existing players since all they care about is helping themselves, and none of them are ever going to change.

When that group one day raises it's voice, it will get it's way. Beats every alternative I can see right now, and it actually could grow something useful.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

40. Where's Mittens, Paul Ryan and Scott Walker in that survey?

Remember the GOP clown car has plenty of room.

[A Simple Game]

52. Well that's quite the poll, did they miss anyone... nope got all 145% of them.

Now when the Republican primaries get rid of the chaff and they are down to one candidate, do you think any of the 102% of the Republicans are really going to vote for Hillary?

One Democrat against four Republicans... any Democrat would have a nice number.

[QuestionAlways]

73. It was based on 100% base for each individual candidate

[Thinkingabout]

5. If she can not win as a Democrat I don't see anyone else in the mix who can beat the

GOP. I think she will be the nominee and so far the GOP has not produced a winnable candidate who can beat her in the numbers. Time will tell, it will be a hard fought campaign and take lots of GOTV on the part of Democrats. I hope we can control the SC for the next several years and perhaps we can get the Senate back to Democrat in order to have the nominee confirmed.

[LeftInTX]

16. We don't have many with name recognition

Everyone knows: Rick Perry, Chris Christie, Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Cruz, Rand and a host of others. They steal the show.

We've got one rising star: Liz Warren and not too many have heard of her.

Like them or not, the Republicans are in the media. Everyone knows them and recognizes them.

[maryellen99]

19. And don't forget Joni Ernst

[Thinkingabout]

22. Sorry to point this out to you but Liz Warren was a Republican until a few

years ago and she has about as much experience as Rubio and Cruz. If one has not heard about Hillary Clinton in the last 20 years then this is their fault. We in Texas know Rick Perry is not up to the task and the more we see of some of the others they are not either.

[Raine1967]

45. She's a Dem now. A strong solid DEM.

I think that this is an important fact.

She's a Dem with some of the most progressive ideas in a long time.

She's also not running.

[JDPriestly]

91. She is considering running. Have you read her book? It is oriented toward a campaign.

[JDPriestly]

90. Bernie Sanders has the most experience, both in an executive position as mayor of a city in

Vermont and then many years in the Senate.

I like Elizabeth Warren's ability to deliver a populist message, but I realize that Sanders has the winning resume.

Terrorism is the big threat now. Socialism, not so much. And Bernie Sanders' "socialism" is not that far to the left.

[Thinkingabout]

157. Perhaps for some he may have a winning resume but his Socialist position would not

Be electable in today's USA.

[JDPriestly]

165. He gets elected in Vermont, nad his stances are traditional Democratic stances.

I can understand your point, but I think he should run in the Democratic primaries and see what happens. I think he could be elected. I could be wrong, but it is worth a try. I really don't think Hillary will be elected. She polls well because of the name recognition. But she has big problems as a candidate. If she didn't, she would have won against Obama hands down in 2008. It isn't her organization. Unfortunately, it's her. And I know she is a nice person, a good mother, etc. But there is just something there that makes it difficult for her as a candidate. Perhaps an impatience. Bill Clinton seemed like the most frustrated person in 2008. He is an ebullient, people-loving, connecting guy. Hillary has good qualities, but she isn't in her heart and soul a politician. She doesn't connect genuinely. She is a good technician and some people love her, but she doesn't have the gift to make each person feel like they want to vote for her. She has her fans, but it wasn't enough in 2008 to win the nomination, and I don't think she can win the presidency. It takes a certain glow, a charisma, to win the presidency.

Obama really has it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. She actually got more votes in the Democratic primaries than Barack Obama

She actually got more votes in the Democratic primaries than Barack Obama but don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.


President Obama had a great narrative, put together a great organization, and had the wind at his back. There was no shame in losing to him.


As to Bernie, the United States is not about to elect a socialist septuagenarian from a small New England state.

[Thinkingabout]

192. She may not get elected but Bernie, no,

Why, one reason is his claim to being Socialist, because unless only those who agree with Socialism were the only ones voting he will be defeated. I don't think his interaction a short time back in a town hall meeting will do well in other areas of the country. I have followed his stand on the issues and don't always agree with him. It may serve him well in Vermont and not do well nationwide.

[woo me with science]

163. +1000000 His record is more consistently on the side of the people

than any other politician currently in the realm of possibility.

He has earned more trust than any of them, IMO, and he is skilled at keeping the shills and media whores from knocking him off narrative.

[VanillaRhapsody]

6. oh yescshe can...she has 64% approval

And polls winning against ALL Repukes including JEB...

[AtomicKitten]

29. Her approval rating is below 50%.

Last edited Wed Nov 5, 2014, 06:27 PM - Edit history (1)

It was 64% in April 2014 but dropped to 58% in June and from there has continued to plummet. I saw one outlier at 37% and one at 49%. The most recent NBC/WSJ poll has her at 43%.

edited to provide proper link: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/09/09/hillary-clintons-approval-numbers-return-to-earth-wsjnbc-poll/

Pretty sure I've provided this data to you before. I wonder when you're going to stop posting incorrect information. Reality is much more solid ground on which to argue your case.

[Proud Public Servant]

32. Check yourself

You're right (sort of), and you're right to call out DU's Hillbots, but linking to a 6-year-old article doesn't really make your case. Here are better numbers:

Aggregate favorability: 49% favorable, 43% unfavorable. http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating

[AtomicKitten]

43. check this

I have corrected my post above with the proper link.

Did the research, posted the wrong link.

[Metric System]

7. BS.

[MoonRiver]

8. If she can't win, nobody can.

So you better just start accepting your permanent minority status.

Me, I think she can and will win.

[JDPriestly]

93. The DLC, Third Way Democrats lost in big numbers. The true liberals from Franken

to Jerry Brown to Jeff Merkeley won.

Hillary is too DLC.

[BlueCaliDem]

103. Jerry Brown is a liberal?? That's news to me.

He's at best a moderate Democrat. AT. BEST. But I voted for him anyway because he signs the bills coming from our more liberal Legislature that has turned a $42 billion deficit into a huge surplus, ending fiscal year 2014 with a $3 Billion surplus since we neutered Republicans and took their version of a filibuster away from them.

[JDPriestly]

152. Jerry Brown gets credit for a lot of the common sense that prevails in our state today.

[charlespercydemocrat]

9. Newface in 2016!

America needs a new face in 2016. I hope the democrats nominate a new face, I wanna be proud of my country in 2016!

[trueblue2007]

11. oh really. you aren't proud now?

[Maedhros]

27. I don't know what I'm more proud of at the moment,

our elective wars in the Mideast, civilian casualties from needless drone campaigns, the growing police/surveillance state, or the fact that our President claims the power to execute American citizens solely at his discretion with no due process.

[progressivebydesign]

105. oh brother...

time to get out of Mom's basement, sonny. Voters don't give a crap about drones taking out terrorists... regardless of their citizenship. They care about the economy.. and some of them really care about guns.

[Maedhros]

112. You're proud of civilian casualties caused by unnecessary military action?

Give yourself a pat on the back, then go read "The Ugly American." Or just look in the mirror.

"Progressive" by design. Oh brother....

[grossproffit]

74. Yawn. eom

[Dawgs]

12. But, she's ahead now against GOP and her approval is in the sixties.

Don't you know that those numbers can't change between now and 2016 election?

[AtomicKitten]

54. her approval is below 50%

see upthread

[Dawgs]

154. I think you're missing my point.

Maybe point, but it feels that way.

[AtomicKitten]

188. Your wit is dry, sir/mam.

[Historic NY]

13. Right now were looking down the highway at Christie, Paul, Cruz as nominee's...

with the pathetic turnout yesterday they will win....

[Autumn]

14. I love Hillary, shes a wonderful woman and no she won't win.

[DocMac]

70. I think your sig line explains why. nt

[wyldwolf]

94. the sig line should actually read:

"Given a choice between a fake Republican and a real one, the public will choose the real Republican every time." Harry Truman, speaking at an ADA banquet, speaking specifically of Dixiecrats and where he later chastised the very "progressives" in attendance for spreading conspiracy theories about his 1948 victory over 'progressive' Henry Wallace.

[DocMac]

107. Thank you for the expanded version.

[wyldwolf]

108. Here's another quote you won't see here:

"The greatest achievement was winning without the radicals in the party. I was happy to be elected by a Democratic party that did not depend upon either the left-wing or the southern bloc." - Harry Truman

[DocMac]

119. I appreciate that, thanks. nt

[SomethingFishy]

18. Funny, I was told 6 years ago that a Black Man

wouldn't be elected President for at least another 20 years...


Not that I want Hillary bout she's got more of a shot than most. It'll be her and Jeb in the final. And she'll win, and we'll have 8 more years of middle of the road, fuck the poor policies. Woo hoo.

[Thinkingabout]

24. If you call someone who is for health care for all and we know Hillary tried to

get this going in the '90's, who is for increasing the minimum wage and many other issues such as equal wages for women is f***k the poor policies, who do you know of who can produce a better policy?

[Dustlawyer]

58. She would be much like Obama, great on social issues, but taking care of Wall Street and the MIC.

She would sign the TPP in a heartbeat and is on a first name basis with all of the Plutocrats. At this point it should be clear that we have to fight to take our Democracy back. We currently get to choose which of the PTB's candidates wins, they win no matter what because they already own anyone with a shot at making it.
Representative Democracy is DEAD!!! The politicians represent DONORS, not the people. Our system is completely corrupt because it is legal to bribe our politicians. I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand! Make a point to go to a big fundraiser. Watch them gather the checks. If you could follow them around you would see the same people and companies writing checks at each fundraiser, unless of course the politician changed their views on an issue. Then the people/companies that are affected by the change cut that politican off and go in search of someone to run against them. As long as the politican keeps saying the right things, they will continue getting their regular bribe, uh, I mean campaign contributions.
Bernie Sanders is the ONLY politician advocating Publicly Funded Elections. This is the way to stop the madness because it takes away the PTB's ability to bribe the candidates (at least legally)! He wants to end the "Revolving Door" between government and the industries they regulate. No one else is willing, at this point in time, to stand with him on this issue. If we could show massive support for Bernie and these ideals we would attract others. The problem is still that too many see Hillary as someone with our best interests at heart rather than someone who wants to be POTUS!

[Louisiana1976]

65. I'm with Bernie--publically funded elections are the way to go. They'd get the corruption out of

politics.

[ms liberty]

127. +1000000. n/t

[Thrill]

21. She has to run. Who exactly else are we going to run?

[LordGlenconner]

25. There's never much of an answer beyond Bernie Sanders and Warren

Sanders is unelectable and Warren, unfortunately, doesn't appear to be leaning toward a run.

That leaves Clinton, O'Malley, Jim Webb, Schweitzer, Hickenlooper (his win last night was a sign of relative strength in comparison to the blood bath going on across the country), Biden and others.

[yeoman6987]

128. O'Malley is out

Yesterday's defeat in Maryland was about a third O'Malley term. His rain tax was a disaster for reelection. Sorry it was and I knew it would be when he brought it up originally. There could have been another way to clean the bay without calling it a rain tax. That was ridiculous and most thought he was joking at first. He found out that nobody was laughing. The Republican knew the hatred for that tax and will get rid of it. What a shame!

[LordGlenconner]

183. I don't think anyone really cares about local Maryland issues outside of Maryland

That's inside baseball stuff.

At any rate, if he wants to run, he should. If he doesn't, he shouldn't. Seems simple enough.

[yeoman6987]

184. Fair enough!

[Maedhros]

28. Someone who has Liberal and Progressive values,

not Wall Street connections.

[glinda]

41. I think we should put "The American People" on the ballot.

[0rganism]

23. we'll have to wait and see

First, there's a year and a half of Republican congressional "activities" that will greatly color the public outlook, one way or another.

Towards the end of that, we get half a year of primaries -- if HRC wants the nomination, she'll have to make a better case to liberals than she did in 2007-2008.

Then we get to the general election campaign. i think the effectiveness of the Koch and Koch-wannabe ad money will be somewhat tempered by the congressional stupidity we're about to experience, but that remains to be seen. Regardless, she or any Democratic candidate will have to weather a storm of PR bullshit the likes of which have never been seen before. i have my doubts about HRC's ability to stand firm in the face of that storm, but we'll have to wait to find out. Perhaps, if she wins the primary, some of the liberal positions to which she'll have paid lip-service will have rubbed off on her enough that she can use them to lead and win the election in Style.

More likely, as you say, it'll be a squeaker with little in the way of coat-tails, but i don't know that it would be better for anyone else.

[nolabear]

26. Yes she can. And I hope she does.

It's not just us, it's a whole country, most of which are at least somewhat to the right of us. And they'll vote for her because she's not as far left. And I'll be glad she's there.

And I'll vote for her because I think she can play on a world stage and be respected and, yes, feared a little. She's a social liberal and might be too much of a hawk but she's electable. And I confess I want a woman to pave the way for all those other women who, I hope, will nudge us further and further toward good social policy.

But if we don't vote, then we destroy everything. Take last night as an example.

[OrwellwasRight]

30. Of course she can win. And she probably will.

But if she does, what will get?

More bad trade deals? Yes.

Labor law reform? No.

Massive, countercyclical and needed investment in infrastructure ? No.

Small cuts to Social Security and Medicare to show her budget credentials? Yes.

More privatizing of government services? Yes.

More spying and war-hawkishness? Yes.

Four more years of a centrist being labeled a socialist? Yes.

Four more years of a President trying to reach out to the center only to find that the center keeps moving to the right? Yes.

[hedgehog]

34. There you go - in better words than I could come up with.

Not to mention a lovely little war........

[global1]

31. I'm Kind Of Inclined To Agree With You......

Up until last night I would have disagreed with you. Now that I've seen the results from last night and heard some of the analysis that went along with it - I am thinking like you that Hillary (though I like her) will not be able to rally the votes needed to win.

No doubt that women will support her - but can she inspire and rally the youth, the dwindling middle class that is still reeling from the recession?

Given the reasons we heard that people sat out last nights election - we need a candidate that will light a fire under the American People and get them incensed enough to GOTV in droves. Much like you've characterized in your OP.

Elizabeth Warren seems to me to be that kind of candidate. She carries no baggage from the past like HRC. She can win the same support as HRC with women. And she has the ability to fire up the people that sat out this election last night. She can inspire the youth vote. She can inspire the middle class vote. She can inspire the over 65 vote. She can inspire those still reeling from the recession because she says all the right things and really believes all those things she says.

I'm kind of at where I was back when HRC and Barack Obama were fighting for the nomination. I put my support behind Obama at the time because I believed he was a sincere person and he inspired me and got me engaged in the process. HRC didn't give me that same feeling.

Same thing now. I like HRC but she doesn't inspire me. She doesn't draw me into really rallying behind her like an Elizabeth Warren does. If HRC does wind up as our nominee I would support her - just like I would have if she was are nominee last time. Bur right now I'm inclined to put my support behind an Elizabeth Warren and if she chooses to run for the nomination - I'll support her.

[Dems2002]

140. I reluctantly supported Obama too in the primary

I was never a huge fan of Obama. I could tell that he was slightly to the right of Hillary. But the media was already savaging Hillary and they liked Obama. That's one of the key things that worries me about her. The media actively hate her and Bill.

I love Warren, but I'm open to other candidates. As much as I love her, I am not fully convinced she can win either. We'd all go to our graves fighting for her, but can she withstand the right-wing onslaught against? Who are her consultants? I hate to say it, but these are important questions. Obama ran a freaking fabulous campaign. If some of his campaign people (I know some of his top Progressive fundraisers are in her camp), but if his campaign people go along, that will give me a good feeling.

The Clintons are loyalists. Which means their consultants suck IMO. She ran a crappy campaign in 2010 and I don't think it'll be any better the next go-around. She already stepped in it trying to discuss being 'broke' after leaving the White House. Out of touch much?

[Nedsdag]

33. All she will get from me is a vote in the GE

I won't canvass for her. I won't give her campaign any money. I will not convince my friends to vote for her.

I am apathetic towards her. The most she'll get from me is a vote. I truly do not care anymore.

[elfin]

35. Sadly, I agree

Her dream will be denied by dark money, ageism about women, war on women in general, the "Hate Hillary" ranting sector, corporatism, Pox Noise, rhetorical tone deafness by herself, missteps by Bill - rhetorical or sexual etc.

Hate plus MONEY is a powerful combo.

Votes by women for a progressive seeming candidate are not assured - witness Jodie Ernst.

I will support and vote for her, but feel her candidacy is doomed against any Republican except an extreme nasty winger like Cruz.

She may not run anyway, given the toxic climate already.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. It depends on who she runs against.

If it's someone from the Republican Clown Car she has a chance. If they run Jeb, which they will, she'll lose. Her negatives are just too great.

[DocMac]

116. Jeb has some empathy for immigrants,

and that is enough to end his chances.

[zappaman]

38. Sure she can.

And if she winds up the Democratic nominee, she gets my vote.

[glinda]

39. With House and Senate in control she is in with Monsanto so should be perfect.

[blackcrowflies]

42. I'm not voting for her, because she's incompetent.

Messed up healthcare in Bill's reign, messed up foreign affairs as SOS. Works hard, but that doesn't count for anything when you don't accomplish something. Lives in Israel's pocket, loves war. Claims to work for women, but set women's rights back centuries in Libya.

I'm voting Biden, even if I have to write him in,.

[SunSeeker]

53. Yeah, Biden's a genius. His quip that Orman will caucus with the Dems really helped.

[blackcrowflies]

159. If Orman has committed, it's news to me.

And no one ever said that Biden's mistakes remotely reached 100%, like Hillary's.

[SunSeeker]

181. Yeah, that's why Biden's comment suggesting he had committed hurt Orman.

The GOP seized on it as proof of some nefarious backroom plot with Dems. I like Biden, but that man appears to have never had an unspoken thought.

I see you're not letting facts get in the way of your Hillary bashing...

[berksdem]

44. maybe.... maybe not

First time poster here and long time viewer.

as with all elections it is a matter of voter turnout. if HC runs and we group together and drive turnout I think she can win. when we get the turnout we always win. it is time for the party to truly get together and drive the message home to the american people. otherwise, we will have Jeb or some other crony getting elected...

what scares me is that I know too many women who are swing-voting dems that truly are not on HCs side - for whatever reason. Personally, I would vote for her but would prefer Warren

[OrwellwasRight]

56. Welcome to DU, berksdem!

Hope you like it here. It is sometimes hard to be new on this Board (like it might be now if tempers flare as people blamestorm our horrendous losses last night), so just ignore anyone who tries to scare you away by mocking your low post count and go get some laughs in the Lounge whenever you need a break from serious political debate.

[nashville_brook]

59. welcome to DU -- i'd prefer EW too.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of many a party bigwig whiskey session for the next few days. There's *got* to be some soul searching going on.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

46. Only her health will stand in the way

I worry about the rigors of a long campaign.

Other than that, she would win.

[PoliticAverse]

47. Can she win the Democratic primary?... n/t

[w4rma]

55. She is "the anointed one". Therefore, she has already lost the primary.

Democrats generally turn against early front runners in presidential primaries.

[Progressive dog]

48. It is amosing to see such certainty

with two years to go, and without even knowing who the Repugnant nominee will be.

[MillennialDem]

49. You're nuts. Hillary stomps any republican into the dirt in 2016. The electorate is

too young and too non-white for ANY republican to stand a chance in 2016.

[NewJeffCT]

60. I'm not a big fan or Hillary

but, I agree that she'd likely beat anybody the Republics can throw at her, and probably easily. Her life has been a very public one for over 20 years now - are there still more skeletons in the closet to drag out?

Jeb Bush? Another Bush? Really? Two failed Bush presidencies weren't enough? Wasn't Hillary ahead of Jeb in Florida in a poll not long ago? If he can't hold his own state, how can he beat her nationally?

[nashville_brook]

62. the numbers aren't supporting the young part of that, even in FL with pot on the ballot.

[MillennialDem]

68. Yeah they are - the young are disengaged during off cycle elections but vote

in presidentials.

[blackapron]

51. she will win

she will win. those folks who voted for the pay (minimum wage) and then voted for the Rep's., well lets see how that works out. don't expect much. the dark money matters. in N.C. there was voters denied the right to vote and that difference would possibly been the difference maker and there are other states. bottom line this election shows me how mad people are that a "black" man is in the white house.

[nashville_brook]

57. it would be just like Charlie Crist last night -- we need NEW progressive leadership

and the Clinton brand is made out of the opposite.

[ALBliberal]

61. i would support Howard Dean in a heartbeat. But he probably won't run.

[Duval]

71. I doubt he will

also, ALBliberal. Do you remember the "Dean Scream" and the way our darn media kept running it?

[ALBliberal]

132. Yes I remember.

We found out later that operatives enhanced the recording to make it seem louder (more harsh) than it was. Turned the primary around. But you know what? I would welcome that enthusiasm right now! We are now different as a party. We need someine to shake us up and inspire us. Dean can do that. He makes so much damn sense anytime he talks. Succinct articulate passionate.

[KamaAina]

63. Extra butter on mine, please.

[Duval]

64. The reason I think Hillary Can

win is because she is a corporatist and, therefore, will not get totally trashed by our Corporate Media. I'm a liberal Dem and I would love to see Bernie Sanders run! I am concerned about Citizens United and the tons of $ thrown into the Republican races. It worked this time along with having a few Democrats who were too "afraid" to stand with Obama and campaigned poorly. Again, we have a BIG problem with our Media. Thanks for posting.

[RufusTFirefly]

79. +1 Yes she can. For the reasons you state.

I won't be voting for her though. No more corporatists for me.

[Dems2002]

129. Unfortunately, the MSM has a Clinton Vendetta

While I think you have a point, fundamentally, Hillary's problem is the Chris Matthews and MSM who have hated the Clintons for decades. She will never get anywhere close to fair treatment from these individuals. This is why I reluctantly supported Obama over Hillary in California's primary. It was a tough call. I actually thought Hillary might be forced to govern a bit more from the left whereas I could tell that Obama's positions were slightly to her right, but the media elites liked him. And that's why I ended up casting my vote for Obama over Hillary. Not very pretty, but there you go.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

66. WHO KNOWS

But I will not have it in me to work hard for her.

I say this country is on a binge and will have to hit rock bottom before the people wake up.

Hope it is sooner than later.

[sadoldgirl]

67. Right now I would say

that she would not win, because we have just seen yesterday that blue dogs or wishy washy Dems have lost. If you get too close to your enemy, you may get hit yourself.

A candidate without all the conservative and financial connections stating the old Dem. values to show a true difference from the repugs' ideology may have a better chance.

Who knows though, what is going to happen within this coming year and Congress? There is also the blow-up of the ME to consider. At least let us wait until anyone declares, just my opinion.

[Laelth]

72. k&r for Elizabeth Warren. n/t

-Laelth

[Phlem]

101. ^^^This^^^!

[WillyT]

75. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!! - K & R !!!

[Louisiana1976]

76. What the Democratic Party needs is not Hillary, who is to the right of Obama, who is pretty right-

wing as Democrats go, but a candidate who has real leftist views. Such a candidate would call for single payer and for colleges and universities being tuition-free. We need a candidate who will be a real alternative.

[Jeneral2885]

77. The Clinton Foundation

will be open to attack by all sides.

[SylviaD]

78. Hillary CAN win, and Hillary WILL win. n/t

[baldguy]

80. Democrats certainly can't win if Democrats don't vote for them.

I don't care who they are. If people crow about how "liberal" they are, and yet refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate - in spite of the ogres arrayed against them - then they're just helping the forces of darkness.

[Legalequilibrium78]

81. I hope that Hillary won't listen

to the kind of advice you just provided here. Why won't you just wake up and accept the reality that the country is not a left of center country. Why must people on the super left continue this ridiculous notion that only if there is a candidate with a better message and vision, x candidate would have won against x Repub candidates in the reddest of districts. What the heck is that supposed to mean? Have you not seen the results of this midterm election? Instead of accepting that reality, we make and look for excuses and reasons (criminal allegations of massive voter suppression) The pollings that were done by a lot of respected polling firms already made the projection that the Dems were going to take a beatinf this election cycle. Did we not have that chance with Pres.Barack Obama, look how that is turning out. Just to be clear I support Pres.Obama and I think history will be kind to him, and he will be remembered to have overcome incredible challenges during his tenure.

Hillary Clinton will win the presidential nomination if and when she enters the race. I am not the one who is convinced of this assertion, there are millions of us who will make sure that Hillary will be the next President of The United States of America. At the same time, you are certainly free to support whoever you think and feel worthy of your support, good luck with your candidate.

[Lil Missy]

84. And what are your credentials?

[vi5]

87. Sure she can win

It won't be with my vote, but she definitely can win.

[jonjensen]

92. what republican turd could beat hillary?

hillery had her daughter name her baby charlotte to help her win north carolina. and she can alway cry as she did in 2008 to win new hampshire when she thought she was going to lose!

[Chemisse]

97. One of my concerns about Hillary

Is that so many Republicans hate her with the same vehemence that they hate Obama. That will make it a very rocky road for her, not just during the elections, but during a Clinton presidency.

Perhaps a different candidate could take the wind out of their sails.

[SheilaT]

100. I, for one, believe you are correct.

What the fans of Hillary don't understand is how thoroughly reviled she is outside of the Democratic Party. And how disliked she is by a fair number inside it.

What bothers me the most about all the Hillary-love is that it keeps those who adore her from either assessing her actual chances in a clear-sighted way, but more importantly has kept anyone else from being able to be considered in any rational way.

There really are some other Democrats out there who ought to be on the radar but who aren't because Hillary is sucking up all the oxygen in the room. Elizabeth Warren is obvious, but less obvious is Sherrod Brown, and maybe a couple of Democratic Governors out there, as few and far between as they are these days. So long as the loud chant for Hillary drowns out everything else, there's no possibility anyone else gets any kind of serious consideration.

After the Republican wins yesterday, I think a lot of things are going to get a lot worse long before they get better. Because you know that they are not going to be the least bit conciliatory, will do everything possible to make good on their promises to get rid of the ACA, to privatize Social Security, to gut all pensions, especially those in the public sector, since the private sector ones have already been destroyed. What is it going to take for all those who have voted for all those things to wake up and understand how much worse off they're going to be? But then, all the survivalists, all those who think guns are far more important than human lives, all the racists, everyone who has a grudge against anyone who has anything more, all those people will more likely feel completely justified in the complete destruction of what we used to call the safety net.

Unless, just unless the next year or so is so awful that there is a genuine revolt against what they are going to try to do, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[nruthie]

115. Well said. And true.

[SheilaT]

139. Thank you.

I get weary dealing with the "OMG! Hillary is The ONE!" people who simply don't look beyond anything at all but her name.

Some years ago I recall being in a community college class with some very sweet young women who were gooing over the possibility of a Condaleeza Rice run for the presidency. All they could see was that Ms. Rice was female, and therefore nothing else in her qualifications mattered. Pointing out that she had NEVER run for elected office, and so therefore hadn't a clue what it was all about, meant nothing to them. She was a woman. And African American, which was a further plus to them. They had no idea whatsoever what was involved in running for office.

I've run for office. The Kansas State House, in fact, in 2004. I lost my race, understandably. I was up against a popular, moderate, incumbent Republican, but I did well enough in a three-way race (there was an idiot Libertarian in the mix) that the Democratic party saw the seat was winnable, put money into the campaign two years later. I'd persuaded a much better candidate to run, and he won, then won re-election, but lost out to the tea party insurgency in 2010. Too bad.

But my point is I've been out there. I've been in the hustings. I know what it's like, I know what's involved. Too many of those who are getting misty-eyed over a Hillary Rodham campaign have no idea. They think that it's all roses and angel cake, because after all she ran once before and now is her time. They do not understand the realities of political campaigns.

I'm reminded of how in earlier years people were misty-eyed over a Gore-McCain ticket, or other various improbabilities. The realities of partisan politics are pretty simple. A person may choose to change parties, but they will NEVER be a national candidate ever after. Bi-partisanship is largely an image, not what actually happens.

[yurbud]

102. you are being too kind to Hillary. She and Bill are part of the problem

luckily, the GOP was more interested in looking at Bill's dick than they were in giving him neoliberal bills he would have gladly signed (though they did manage to do enough damage together through welfare reform, the repeal of Glass-Steagal, and the Telecomm Act of 96).

[sulphurdunn]

106. That's the idea,

and even if she did win, she's basically a republican anyway and no threat to the status quo.

[Darb]

109. And so it begins.

I question your sincerity. Just sayin'.

[WestSeattle2]

110. Wish we could pass the baton onto the next generation - rerunning the 1990's

and 2000's lacks vision, energy and vitality. In a country of 320 million souls, surely there is new blood in the pool.

That said, I think she'd win if she runs. I honestly don't see any current r's that could beat her. Another Bush? Seriously? Mittens, v3? Not gonna happen. Paul? The man will say and do anything to run for president - even denouncing his own prior positions and statements. Cruz? Please. Rubio couldn't get through the primaries, and if Walker runs and wins the nomination, it's over before he leaves the convention floor. He's a tool that will be exposed for what he is on the national stage.

[nruthie]

114. I agree.

She can run, but she will never be elected President. With Fox News spewing propaganda 24 hours a day? What we saw yesterday is kid stuff compared to the garbage they will heap on her. Let's have a reality check for a change.

[MoonRiver]

118. So, please tell us what Dem could win under those circumstances?

Would another Dem be immune to the relentless Fox attacks? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Metric System]

134. Exactly! Who is this magical Democratic candidate that will be treated nicely by Republicans?!?

[RiverLover]

117. Totally agree

She is in bed with Wall Street, as well as the oil industry. She is profracking. I will never vote for her. It would be borderline equivalent to voting for a rethug.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/hillary-clintons-goldman-sachs-problem

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/12/why-liberal-democrats-are-skeptical-of-hillary-clinton-in-one-paragraph/282304/

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

http://nyagainstfracking.org/message-from-new-yorkers-to-hillary-clinton-stop-touting-the-big-oil-gas-line-on-extreme-dirty-energy/

[Isoldeblue]

120. If she gains appeal

among the Latino and minority vote, she will win. Those are the ones who stayed home and cost us this election. Like it or not and how shitty and bigoted that sounds, it's the truth.

[TheNutcracker]

121. I'm with Bernie!

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. Dark money, voter suppression and extreme attacks will be the order of the day for any Dem nominee

We shouldn't think that, once these have worked in this election, they'll go easy on some Dems but not others. The precise attacks would vary a bit, depending on who they are (Hillary would be attacked based her gender and the old lies from the Whitewater era, and Sanders as a 'communist traitor', for instance - truth won't matter), but they'll throw everything they can at the nominee. They need a president and Senate at the same time - to pack the Supreme Court and other long term appointments with ideologues, pass financial bills with loopholes the size of the Titanic in (doesn't matter if they get repealed after a few years when the disastrous nature becomes apparent and Dems get back in - by that time corporations will have repatriated profits from abroad without tax, billionaires will have hidden their money in offshore trusts, and so on), and more. I presume they will retain the House due to gerrymandering, until 2022.

I think that the Dem will be able to win, however, though it's not a foregone conclusion, of course. I don't think that Hillary has no chance, nor that some other candidate has any obvious advantage over her. I think "a narrative of historical truth telling" wouldn't get anyone very far. You don't get elected by Ken Burns fans.

[Metric System]

125. We NEED to run Bernie Sanders he's the only Dem who can win in 2016!

(posting from Bizarro World)

[Generic Brad]

137. Let's try something really different and run George Clooney

Put Bernie up as his veep.

[AnnieBW]

131. I think you're right

I think Hillary is brilliant, and immensely qualified to be President. However, there is too much baggage from the 90's associated with her. Even yesterday, I overheard two white, male co-workers bringing up the whole "Hillary is a man" crap. It made me realize just what we're up against. Maybe some other woman will do it, but not Hillary, and not in 2016.

[Metric System]

133. At least Hillary's baggage has been well inspected. Republicans will attack ANY Dem we run. Just

look at how they went after President Obama in 2008.

[RiverLover]

136. Sherrod Brown is a true Progressive

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-will-sherrod-brown-is-the-odd-man-out-with-democrats/2014/08/01/92e2d35e-18f0-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html

[customerserviceguy]

138. So, who could possibly defeat her

Either in the nominating process, or the general election? She's the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

I do agree with you on the coattails thing, I fully expect her inevitability after the nominating convention to be used against her: "What if Hillary does win? Won't you want someone in the House/Senate to be able to oppose her radical agenda??? Vote for me, and I'll do my level best to neutralize her."

That would be a very effective campaign strategy in many areas of the country.

[Beausoir]

141. I'm sure you think Lizzy Warren is an actual viable candidate.

[Odin2005]

143. Fuck Hilary, she's just another Capitalist tool.

[bhikkhu]

144. I would vote for her without hesitation

but I am completely baffled at the moment about what it takes to win the popular vote.

[Beacool]

145. On this site she'll never win.

The complaining and vitriol around here are never ending. In the real world she might be the only viable chance the Democrats have in 2016. The question should be why would Hillary even bother running? It's a thankless job, the pressures are huge, the economy is barely out of ICU, jobs are stagnant and she's already achieved more than any first lady in history. She has nothing to prove. So why bother?

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. That's the hangover talking. She can win and will win.

She can bring in huge donations and can compete financially with anything the RNC can throw at her.

I'm not saying that I consider HRC the best case scenario.

[DAMANgoldberg]

153. Some different names...

Gov. Deval Patrick-MA
Gov. Brian Schweitzer-MT
Sen. Al Franken-MN
VP Joe Biden (not different, but under radar for 2016)
Rep. Steve Cohen-TN
Rep. Alan Grayson-FL
Mayor Mitch Landrieu-NOLA
Mayor Annise Parker-HOUTX
Tran. Sec. Anthony Foxx-CLTNC
Gov. Bill Richardson-NM

[Orsino]

156. Hillary Clinton will be our next president.

For all the good it will do us, she is inevitable. Let's make her be the best she can be.

[NCTraveler]

158. Big Hillary suppoerter hear and I will give you a K&R.

While I do think she can win, as you do mention that as well, I agree with your overall message.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

160. Many of us have been saying this. Not only can she not win. She WON'T win!!

[Phlem]

162. I read the comments on this thread

I think to myself, we haven't learned a god damn thing. The 3rd way needs to go, that includes Hillary.

[woo me with science]

164. Ignore the pro-Hillary bullying.

I have been one of the worst offenders in taking the bait of the diversion/propaganda machine, but I really like this post today:

Ignore the 3rd Way shills with extreme prejudice
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025767160

[Phlem]

200. Thanks for this woo.

[NorthCarolina]

166. I've watched her performance on taking on Wall Street and lets face it, her acting skills

are sub par, next to non-existent. She will never be able to pull off a believable populist act for campaign purposes as Obama did.

[INdemo]

167. Biden would stand a better chance

Of winning.On the other hand if Hillary doesn't run than we have several options of nominations including Warren who could win because liberal voters would actually show up and vote

[CanonRay]

169. A tip of my hat to you

Words out of my mouth, etc. Thanks for posting this, it needs to be said.

[still_one]

176. Who do you think can win? The country unfortunately has gone right for a while

[Spitfire of ATJ]

178. Actually, the Koch Brothers would try to cut a deal.

[woo me with science]

179. Corporate Democrats will run Hillary only if

the PTB have decided it's time for a Republican next time.

[SidDithers]

180. Bookmarking...nt

Sid

[get the red out]

182. She's the only one who can!

I can't hurt any Dems chances at the nomination, my state votes too late in the primaries.

I believe Hillary Clinton is the only Democrat that can win because there are still people in purple states fond of Fmr President Clinton.

[rocktivity]

185. DING DING DING! Dems2002, you're our grand prize winners!

We need a candidate who is going to run in favor of expanding, not decreasing, social security and medicare, someone who's going to run on eliminating the crushing debt saddling our children as they strive to achieve the supposed American Dream of a college education even as they end up working at Mickey D's or Walmart. We need someone who's going to run on the promise of throwing the real criminals in jail -- the people who prey on the elderly and poor, and rob our 401ks in order to buy themselves a nice boat. Someone who's going to run on revitalizing the American Promise at home and to the world by investing in our infrastructure, rebuilding our schools and roads and not our jails.

Hillary wasn't interested in those things eight years ago, and she's not interested now. As long as she runs on being the lesser of two evils, she may not make it through the next Dem primary -- just like eight years ago.


rocktivity

[meti57b]

190. With all due respect to all who think differently ...... I concur with the OP.

[MisterP]

191. "dark money, voter suppression and extreme attacks will be the order of the day"

and just WAIT until the Pubs get started!

[Jester Messiah]

193. I think she can. Look who she's up against.

The repub field is a joke. Don't let the election just concluded cloud your mind. When the electorate actually turns out, dems win at the national level.

Still, she's not my favorite person for a lot of reasons relating to what you've written. I'd be happier if we had an actual Liberal at the top of our ticket.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

196. "And if she does win..."

Which is it?

She can't or can win. The two possibilities are mutually exclusive.


I have two passions; politics and sports, maybe because they are both competitive. Your post reminds me of a post I saw on a boxing forum I frequent. Its tile was " Five heavyweights who would defeat Muhammad Ali". The poster than went on to name four who theoretically "could" have beat Muhammad Ali...

[Lil Missy]

204. I'll say it now - Hillary is the ONLY one who CAN win.

[Awsi Dooger]

205. Hillary can win a squeaker

The 2016 cycle figures to be very balanced. Open races after two terms are often razor tight, like 1960, 1968, 1976 and 2000. That's always the first place to look, the situational landscape and not the specific candidates. Voters tend to tire of the party in charge after two terms. But they won't flatly reject that party if the ratings are decent for the exiting president. Obama's standing in mid 2016 greatly impacts our opportunity. Notice I wrote mid, not late. You can't make up ground at the last minute. Obama needs to restore strength and popularity in late 2015 at the worst and then carry it into 2016 without faltering.

If Obama is still in the low 40s or thereabouts 20 months from now, then anyone we nominate is toast.

Hillary as a known quantity for 20+ years has a low range of variance in her approval number. She is not a candidate to budge much above 50%, or much below low 40s unless she makes a gaffe that makes no sense, given her strengths.

The demographics work in our favor as fewer whites make up the electorate. It likely will be down to 70-72%. Women will be roughly 54% of the voters in 2016. Our reluctant segments who dependably sit out midterms will show up in a general election for presidency.

All of that potentially helps Hillary and state by state she is okay, certainly not worse than any other Democrat. Since we've ignored the governorships lately our bench is ridiculously weak. To anyone opposing Hillary's candidacy I can't wait to hear their alternatives. No doubt the modern day version of Dennis Kucinich. Pipe dream all the way.

IMO, we screwed up in 2008. Hillary was a cinch in that climate. The base preferred Obama and rolled the dice. We ended up with a guy who is considered weak 6 years later. That reputation defines the party going forward. Hillary would have been loud and polarizing but anything but weak.

The issue with electing Hillary is what happens in 2020 if she wins. Hard to imagine 4 straight Democratic terms. But if she loses then Republicans are all but a living cinch in 2020. I'll say right now that if a Republican is elected in 2016 then that same guy will receive 54+% of the popular vote four years later. He will be in the most favorable situation imaginable, as an incumbent with his party in power only one term. Reagan and Clinton won huge in that spot, and Bush survived despite an unpopular war. After two straight relatively tight contests in that favorable scenario it makes sense for the next example to be a waltz.

We can't afford for Hillary to lose. Otherwise it's 2024 before we're viable again. Who knows where Republicans will take the country in the meantime. Anyone here who pouts over a Hillary candidacy and insists they won't vote for her should grasp that reality right now. The big picture dictates outcomes, not day to day trivia.