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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI got a peek at how the Other Side thinks
I was serving jury duty here in Brevard County, Florida, and yesterday a group of about sixty-five of us were questioned by the attorneys for both sides. I should mention it was a murder case and that cocaine was involved. It was quite amazing. Here are some of the questions, and how the group answered:
- Are you a leader, a follower, or "get out of the way?" 98% said they were leaders...I said I was a "get out of the way," but with a big mouth.
- Are the police fair? Again, almost everyone said Yes! I said "not always."
- If each side had an expert testify, but to opposing views, would you be able to decide who was right? Everyone except me said Yes! no problem!
- On a scale where 10 is yes! and 1 is "I'd rather get a root canal," how much do you want to serve on this jury? 90% said
"10," a few said "9," and I said "2; I'd rather skip the root canal." And I also added I did not want to be part of a decision that could lead to a death sentence.
It was frightening to me how much of an authority-figure kind of mindset these people have. This is the Space Coast area and aerospace (or what's left of it) attracts many ex-military types, which (I guess) explains it.
The only other time I've seen this since I moved to this area was at a town-hall meeting, that famous summer, when the Tea Boogers were finding their voices. It was me and one other woman in the audience, saying No! that's not right...and folks actually jeering us.
Basic LA
(2,047 posts)You hit the mark. I retired from aerospace after 32 yrs & could never believe how extreme right-wing everyone was. It was like the Sixties never happened to any of them. When I or anyone would get off for jury duty, everyone would yell, "Remember, guilty!"
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Science has discovered that peoples brain development
is correlated with their political views.
Science/engineering is typically a left-brain endeavor...
Very linear, logical, either/or thinking.
And again, typically, people who are inclined to that style of thinking
self-identify as republican, conservative, authoritarian.
just a thought
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Not good news if true.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Maybe we could try education and mental exercises?
Just saying that the brain is pretty plastic and is malleable.
Our culture promotes left brain, "right-handed" thinking.
A culture/society that encourages balance between art & science
might be enough to bring sanity and reason to our lives?
I know, wishful thinking, eh?
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)(and what the brain looks like is interesting but not that important)
But most of the posts about the brain-difference issue (it comes up every few months) at least assume that it's a genetic feature.
I hope it isn't.
I really don't know.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)but that's not a deal breaker with the "other side"
Humans are social animals.
We need one another.
Nature provides us with plenty of examples
of community/colony based organisms that
work cooperatively to best utilize the strengths
of the group, herd, pack, tribe, etc.
It's the false dichotomies and prejudices
that divide us first from one another,
and eventually from ourselves.
We really are living in an alienated society.
Like anything else, work to your strengths
and improve the weaknesses.
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)They rarely change their views or opinions, even when presented with facts to the contrary.
Some people call this trait resolve and view it as a value to be admired.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)Looks like they'd need some kind of functioning memory cells for that too...
J_J_
(1,213 posts)It is as if they haven't passed a 6th grade developmental stage
Response to J_J_ (Reply #22)
JuanHamonrye Spam deleted by MIR Team
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Oddly, when "Conservatives" project onto dems/libs etc
they are telegraphing what they unconsciously think.
This is all about that "Jungian" thing we call The Shadow.
The Shadow is our repressed thoughts and feelings.
To avoid cognitive dissonance people "project" those
unwanted thoughts or feeling onto "the other".
Hence, conservatives being uncomfortable with accepting
their own emotional responses, project that mode of thinking
onto the other, democrats.
Not an exact science, but it is predictable.
glinda
(14,807 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)They think of themselves as supremely intelligent, purely logical Ubermenschen as opposed to us "bleeding hearts" who "refuse to accept cold hard economic truths".
Most of them are what Jung called the Extraverted and Introverted Thinking types, their emotions and evaluating behavior is unconcious, undeveloped, and childish. These are the same people who are having a misogynistic temper tantrum over "Gamer-Gate".
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)who seem to vote against policies that actually work and benefit them. i posted that some americans are just so racist, and they would prefer to have nothing than allow a black man to succeed. two conservacretins accused me of "playing the race card," and went on and on about how Obama's polices were failures, that he is a liar, etc. one fool even claimed that bush and reagan were disrespected, just like Obama i asked the person who was raving about "failed policies" to name one, and i just got more ranting about nothing. i doubt he even knows ANY actual policy that failed. he's a perfectly illustrated my point.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)i've tried to have civil discussions with some conservatives on facebook, and it is virtually impossible.
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)It's not true that the hemispheres of the brain represent fundamentally different personalities or general cognitive styles. In particular, it's a myth that the right hemisphere is 'the creative hemisphere' and the left hemisphere 'the logical/analytical one'. In fact, the hemispheres, though they do show some specialization of skills, do not show this sort of division. The biggest real difference is that the left hemisphere is mainly responsible for language, and the right hemisphere for spatial abilities. The 'logical vs creative' myth probably stems in part from the fact that *in visual perception* the left hemisphere is better in perceiving the features and details of a scene, and the right hemisphere better at perceiving it as an integrated whole. But both logic and creativity require both hemispheres operating together, and they are not as separate and specialized as is sometimes represented. And it is certainly not the case that there are 'left-brained' and 'right-brained' people with different personalities.
It is true that some studies have suggested that right-wingers are less tolerant of ambiguity than left-wingers, but it does not seem to be linked to one side or the other of the brain
As regards science and engineering: surveys have shown that most scientists in America vote for Democrats. Engineers are more Republican but by no means uniformly so. I haven't been finding it easy to get exact information about the voting preferences of British scientists and engineers, but on the whole British scientists tend to be on the left and British engineers on the right, though there are lots of exceptions regarding both.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)I appreciate you trying to untangle the media garbling for us
Perhaps I got the hemisphere and cortex thingies garbled.?
Apparently its the differences between
anterior cingulate cortex and the amygdala?
Everyday is a school day!
Thanks for the clarification
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)In one recent study, having a strong brain response to images evoking disgust was strongly associated with being right-wing:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/193295-your-brains-response-to-disgust-can-predict-your-political-worldview-says-new-study
Though most brain imaging studies don't have huge samples, so may depend quite a lot on the specific people who take part in a study.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)there's much more communication between left and right.
And when a person is not dominant right handed, it all changes....there are at least 4 styles of handedness, by the way...
in other words, not good to generalize about brains and the people who possess them!
Locrian
(4,522 posts)Depends. I'm an engineer - also a musician, and consider myself extremely progressive.
What I find in general, is that there are the creative type engineers and the non-creative types.
Most are the non-creative, who do trust authority and see rather black and white. I think a lot of this is how they are educated: very early a lot of engineers develop a disdain for what they see are the 'easy' courses: namely the liberal arts, art, etc. So they never experience the subtly of things vs the rather black and white math problems. I still remember classmates (and office mates) extolling how math is "right or wrong". Of course, they forget the model or the problem setup are what the "math" hinges upon!
Of course, if you go higher in engineering / science you see that nothing is as black and white as it seems. At that point, the "non-creative" hit a wall vs the other creative types who go on to bigger things.
And it always seems to me to be a correlation between that black/white, non-creative, trusting authority - that equates to "republican, conservative, authoritarian, dominator" types.
Vs the creative, healthy distrust of authority, able to see shades of gray - that equate to "democratic/progressive/partnering" types.
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)You sound like a pretty balance person...
an artist and a scientist !
We are on the same page
I saddens me when I meet people who are
intelligent but don't have much of an inner life.
Those folks who are "non-creative" and look down
on the supposed "Liberal Arts" are missing so much of life.
Not to mention the Enlightenment and American Revolution
were a direct consequence of learned people working
to create a better world based on "liberal arts".
The irony
Locrian
(4,522 posts)thanks
I think it might also have something to do with whether a person avoids or embraces things that are uncomfortable. I see a lot of talented people - good at their jobs, etc - but they're just not "curious". They take the easy way out mentally.
It's sorta like exercise - it may be a drag sometimes, but keeping body/mind in shape sometimes requires doing things that *you're not good at".
Unfortunately, another thing that happens is that nobody at work is rewarded for saying "I don't know - give me a chance to learn/figure it out." Answers must be NOW NOW NOW. So people become afraid of play (learning) and of any hint of failure.
Even I find myself feeling that I don't have TIME to play/learn but must get "the answer".
Another sad thing about the current political/economic/corporate etc system just when we need more partnership and creativity we are tricked to work against each other and take the easy way out.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Well said.
glinda
(14,807 posts)projects. I feared that it would ruin my creativity but it has only made me more progressive and creative.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)Southern Baptist
Church of Christ
Jehovah's Witnesses
or some other weird RW Christian cult
ncjustice80
(948 posts)I love bring up the *fact* that the averagebliberal is smarter than the average rethug, along with the Berkely study ahowing conservatism is actually a mental disease!
Cosmic Kitten
(3,498 posts)Dunno about scientists being predominantly liberal?
Any linkies?
As to the mental disease...
Wasn't right-wing talk radio spouting that
liberalism was a mental disorder?
Limbaugh or Savage?
Yet another instance of PROJECTION?
Oh the irony if true
ncjustice80
(948 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I get the feeling that Engineering tends to fit strongly with an authoritarian personality. Everything is literal, concrete, and (unlike scientific fields) facts are just assumed to be true because "Authority" says so. These people are very smart but often lack a degree of cognitive flexibility.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Because I find that the current "old" generation (who came of age in the 50s) are very by-the-book, susceptible to authoritarian/conservative propaganda, etc. Not all, of course, but in general.
PennyK
(2,302 posts)I think almost all were still employed...there were engineers, yes, but also a pharmacist, a teacher, a nutritionist, business-types. I got the feeling that many were not all that engaged in politics, and just kind of absorbed the loudest voices they were hearing - meaning, the ads put out by monied groups. And of course we all know what voices you hear on your car radio.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)Propaganda trumps demographics.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)ncjustice80
(948 posts)Give kids some good, intelligent, well paid teachers to undo all the conservatard brainwashing they get at home.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)librechik
(30,674 posts)True story.
I've never served on a jury, I wonder why?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Even though that is illegal.
That's why we have so many innocent people in prison, as the Innocence Project has so aptly demonstrated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project
Baitball Blogger
(46,735 posts)It will probably take more than a few civil lawsuits before they realize that civilians have rights.
rickford66
(5,524 posts)I never turn down jury duty. It's like not voting. Don't complain about the criminal justice system if you refuse to do your part.
PennyK
(2,302 posts)We were told that if we disagreed with the law, it was too bad; a jury is not permitted to amend law...that that was the responsibility of the legislature. And we would not be doing anything more than deciding on the verdict, that the judge would administer sentencing.
Trust me, these were people who my tiny voice would not have swayed.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)A jury can always nullify.
Yes, it's no lie that you can't change the law, but you always have the option of saying, "I can't change it, but this person should be held to it because it's a stupid law."
rickford66
(5,524 posts)Some of the people whom you disagreed with will most probably would be dismissed by the defense. They do tend to even out the jurors.
Response to PennyK (Original post)
BKH70041 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to BKH70041 (Reply #8)
PennyK This message was self-deleted by its author.
I misread what you wrote. I'll self delete the post.
I self-deleted my response!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)or soon will have you, on your way home!
PennyK
(2,302 posts)The defense attorney asked me if I wanted to change my answer on how much I wanted to serve .
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I was always amazed at the number of people that actually WANTED to stand in judgment of others! It was scary.
My general rule was, the more someone wanted to serve, the less I wanted them ... but then, I always did (criminal) defense and (civil rights) Plaintiff work.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)They all think they're the alpha dog. If the country actually HAD a new Civil War they would be lobbing grenades into their own command center.
mountain grammy
(26,623 posts)this is a redneck area, to be sure, but the questions are usually answered thoughtfully and carefully. The jury I served on was a felony, negligent homicide charge based on no real physical evidence, just the suspicions of law enforcement. The prosecution's cas was built entirely on the testimony of the police. We found the guy not guilty. Unanimous, in about 15 minutes.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Considering it was a redneck area.
mountain grammy
(26,623 posts)People here tend to be pretty conservative, so it's good to see a healthy suspicion of law enforcement and a demand for real, hard evidence and not just the word of the cop.
Thanks
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)lobodons
(1,290 posts)This seems to be what the jury will look like:
A HERETIC I AM
(24,370 posts)She DOES have a wart.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I laughed when I read that too.
A group of leaders who do exactly what they are told.
Mr. Mustard
(63 posts)proceeded to support every authoritarian question.
That is symptomatic of our electoral problems. People think they're leaders, believe they're correct and facts don't matter.
There are several realities, the reality, the media reality, the republican reality and each persons' reality.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Many Republicans/Conservatoids hate the Jury System. Limbaugh regularly comments on trials being decided by people too dumb to get out of jury duty. I personally would think serving the Justice system is a duty - annoying but very important.
Bryant
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Because the whole world is crazy!
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I had a friend like that. To hear him tell it, the accusation for a crime, or an indictment was as good as a guilty verdict. He never considered the part where he might find himself falsely accused.
It is a peculiar mindset. I call it the Judge Roy Bean or Ox Bow Incident mindset. It is almost a prerequisite for Righties®.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I can't stand Authoritarian types. And I am rarely able to hold my tongue around them. Then they accuse me of being anti-authority. As if. Ain't no such a thing as an authority.
Penny k. And all other DUers remember all lawyers want a conviction or an acquittal that is how they make they make their money. When I was taking an ethics class in college my ethics professor told the class about his lawyer friend who when he interviews a candidate to join his law firm. One of the final questions he asked the candidate if they are in the law field to practice law or make money. If the candidate says to practice law he tells them to go to work for his competition, he is in the law business to make money!
Chakaconcarne
(2,453 posts)There are obvious right and wrong answers.
santamargarita
(3,170 posts)Warpy
(111,271 posts)after the Apollo program ended and the workers were pink slipped and told to move to Alabama or Texas. Real estate went bust and my parents swooped in just in time.
Even they changed their mindset after the first couple of decades in that area from tepid civil rights supporters to bigots, from liberal to tax phobic conservative. I watched it happen and it stiffened my resolve never to move back to the southeast US as long as I live. Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it.
Florida is a weird place, heaven for old men and hell for old women and I'm convinced the heat and humidity cause brain damage after a while, causing people to turn into rigid and spiteful authoritarians.
hunter
(38,317 posts)I never got that training as a child, never got punished for "questioning authority."
And as adults, many people are able to rise above any regressive childhood training.
Punishment is a rotten way of teaching dogs or humans, and people who automatically "respect authority" are easily manipulated by crooked leaders and propaganda.
In my own experience, people in the more creative and scientific aspects of aerospace don't tend to be conservative, but there is a tendency toward libertarianism, which I'll often attribute to a lack of awareness about politics and community-building, or quite honestly, autistic spectrum social cluelessness.
I quit my engineering major for biology in the 'seventies. I was sitting in an engineering class one day and I realized that only two women had enrolled in the class and one of them had dropped out. Most of the guys there talked incessantly about muscle cars and "babes" when they weren't talking about homework. A few of the more creative sorts were destined to dive deeply into cutting edge mathematics, physics, or computer science and I often had a difficult time following their conversations. My talent for math just wasn't that great.
And nope, I was not flaming humanist I am now then, I simply ran the numbers, noticing that more than 50% of biology majors were women. Furthermore there were field trips and field work where one could camp with women! People frolicking in the water naked or close to naked! And paleontology and evolutionary biology are as powerful an obsession with me as computers.
My wife's a biology major too. We met as big city public school science teachers. Nevertheless we are both interested in space science. One of our first dates was an open house at JPL. We both knew people who worked there. They were building the Galileo.
I've never been selected to sit on a jury, probably because I always answer questions honestly and believe, as a very left wing social justice Catholic heretic, that the death penalty is evil.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I am good at math, but such technical fields bored me. Ended up in Psychology.
skydive forever
(445 posts)and sometimes I think I'm the only dem around here.
PennyK
(2,302 posts)Well, now you know you're not!
My daughter, who was part of Occupy in Manhattan, and is in charge of a bail fund for NY protesters, is coming here for Thanksgiving. We can have a Liberals Unleashed party! Gluten-and-range-free, of course!
lindysalsagal
(20,692 posts)They're just getting by in a semi-frightened state, trying to negotiate a world they only partially understand.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)intelligent and reasonably nice in day to day matters that think like that. I don't understand
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Although I agree with you on the rest of your points, jury duty is awesome. I get out of work but still get paid, and I don't have to get up at five in the morning. Plus, half of my time seems to be spent reading a book or surfing the net. Jury duty is a paid vacation for me.
ConnorMarc
(653 posts)To a tee.
The one person who knew what was going on was wrong, was too corward to stick up for herself and the victim.
Regretted it afterwards.
Too late.
mnhtnbb
(31,392 posts)Three of us turned the other 9 from a first vote in the jury room from guilty
to not guilty. So much for the % of 'leaders' on a jury.
This was in a small town in Missouri in the early 90's. The defendant was an AA male charged
with aggravated assault (using a knife) against a white guy who ended up cut. We never
heard any reason for the fight--but we all suspected some drug deal gone
bad. This happened in the white guy's house. The defendant had no
weapon on him and the white guy testified he had himself started the fight.
The defendant grabbed a kitchen knife to defend himself from being attacked
with a kitchen bar stool. The defendant's attorney even brought the bar stool
into court and had the white guy show how he had wielded it during the fight.
It was pretty clear to the 3 of us that how he was swinging that bar stool was
not in self defense--as the white guy claimed--but he was attacking the defendant.
We returned a verdict of not guilty by reason of self defense. The white guy was
in the courtroom when the verdict was returned and you've never seen a more surprised
and pissed off guy. I've often wondered if the defendant got his act together after
that experience and stayed away from people like the guy who got cut--he sure had
the look, swagger, and demeanor of 'white trash'.