Life as the new Lower Middle Class.

[leftyladyfrommo]

All of my friends (women mostly but not all) have fallen into this whole new class of people. We aren't poor because we have more money than that. But are definitely lower middle class now. Most of us have quite a bit of education and experience but that doesn't matter anymore because we are over 50. Some of us rely on our SS and some of us aren't old enough for that so we are using all of our life savings just to make it until our SS kicks in.

Most of us work some sort of low paying part-time job. No benefits. Obamacare has been a godsend for the people who don't qualify for Medicare yet.

We drive small, economy cars or older cars that we keep repairing and praying that they will make it another 50 miles.

We live in small houses that we mostly own. The thermostat is set on 60 during the day and lower at night because we don't want to run up the gas bill.

We watch how much water we use. We turn off anything electrical that we aren't using to keep the electric bill down.

Food is a problem. It's hard to cook economically for just one or two people. We really need to be eating lots of fresh fruits and veggies but they are so expensive. Now the beans we can afford and we mix them into stuff just about every meal. Or we go to Taco Bell where we can get a $2 burrito.

We don't travel.

Clothes come from Walmart. It's a copout but it's cheaper than Target or K Mart.

I'm currently doing about as well as I was when I first got out of college and got my first job. I'm lucky. I have a warm house and a car and can make my utility payments and still eat. Some of my friends aren't quite so lucky.

This is our new reality. It's not terrible. We get by. But it's sure not how we expected to live out our senior years.

We didn't vote Republican.

[raging moderate]

1. For clothing and housewares, check out thrift stores.

Sometimes their stuff is actually BETTER! I can't find corduroy pants anywhere else anymore, and they have nicer lightweight turtlenecks. And I have found some really good coats and shoes! Plus you can piece out old tableware sets pretty well, and they have some pretty good sets of things, too.

[LuvNewcastle]

55. I also recommend thrift stores.

I buy name-brand clothes, furniture, and housewares for less than I would pay for something from Wal-Mart. Some of the clothes still have the tags on them, so they've never been worn. I haven't had good luck with buying shoes at thrift stores, but other than that, you can find all manner of things. The trick is to go to thrift stores in towns with a lot of wealthy people. I'll take their cast-offs over Wal-Mart any day.

[LiberalLoner]

71. 3rd

[liberalmike27]

96. Yea, I resemble that

Luckily I live in the South, but I'm in my computer room, it's about 60 in the house, but I close the door, and light a candle, and turn on an extra computer, instead of turning on the heater. I have the minimum water bill. I do have basic, and Internet, which is my phone. I've got a microwave, but it's broken, my gas is off, and I don't cook here. That was a deliberate solution, as I was paying ten bucks a month, even when I used none of it. I've got a quilt wrapped around me right now, and in truth I'm lucky about the Winter, because I'm pretty hot-natured anyway.

I don't go anywhere much, I don't eat out much, I'm a few years from SS, and my student loan has defaulted, so they'll probably take my SS when I do get that, and it won't be much, since I never made much.

I've also got a small car, that gets pretty good mileage. Thankfully my friend owns this house, and he gives me a good rent for the neighborhood, but I've been burgled 4 times in 12 years, most recently a hole was shot in my roof, that cost my landlord $260, fairly cheap but unnecessary expense.

Things aren't good, and I blame a lot of the previou paragraph's troubles on the economy being bad too. So, bad economy not only affects me directly, but through others who are experiencing it as well.

Enough whining, although like the original, I turn off everything, unplug things I don't need, and I still try to find little ways to cut my expenses, even though they are pretty minimal now. No insurance, Medicaid I guess, if I need it.

Worst of all, I live in Alabama, one of the poorest states, populated by 65% of idiots that vote Republican. Jeez.

[walkingman]

127. It could be worse

you could live in Texas. I am disgusted at the direction this state has turned.

[CountAllVotes]

94. Watch out for that clothing!!

I lost most of what I have thanks to an old sweater I bought. It had clothing moths living in it and it destroyed about 1/2 of what we have!

Never again, never. I'll wear what I have until it falls off I'm beginning to think.

It is not fun living with all of your belongings packed away in plastic tubs because you have to worry about the damned clothing moths coming back to eat up the rest of what you have.

And no, I am not kidding!

[B Calm]

95. We have one nearby that has $1.00 bag days. Anything you can get in the bag for a buck.

[peace13]

2. So true!

Spending the savings....it sucks to do it but then I think of those who have already depleted theirs. My fear is that with this new wave of R"s we will be eating the house sooner rather than later. I see communal living in our future, with folks working until they drop. Yoga and meditation are free so...at least I will have some enjoyment. Right now I am still trying to focus on all possibilities....that is until reality forces me to do otherwise.

Thank you for sharing this!Peace and love,Kim

[starroute]

5. Communal living for sure

Empty nesters trying to keep up a family-size house and pay off the mortgage and cover the utilities and cook economically for just one or two people is a losing recipe. It won't be easy for people who have been living on their own to go back to 20-something style group arrangements, but it's the answer to a lot of the problems.

[marions ghost]

7. Agree

this is the way of the future. Pooling resources.

[Hortensis]

30. Umhm, and it's also the way of the past and of the present for many very functional, and

frequently nicely affluent, families.

I'm thinking of some immigrant fishing families in a village we stopped in who are an affront to many natives in because their traditional extended-family living means they are able to purchase new cars, live more nicely overall, and send their children to college. This explanation of local culture was courtesy of a more insightful native, our young waiter.

I was interested to note here that relatively few so far have mentioned combining family homes. Especially when you think how many young peoples' economic futures are being crippled by the world they so traumatically came to adulthood in. And, no, our own kids are older and not actually hurting, much less nearly enough that this would seem desirable to them.

[marions ghost]

31. I am talking about

people who are unrelated --pooling their resources. Not multi-generational families, or siblings living together, although that too will increase with further economic stress.

I foresee the necessity for house and resource sharing at any stage of life--among unrelated adults. As an alternative to sinking into poverty or near poverty as the OP describes.

This would be an unusual trend in independent-minded America, but I think we will see it. Large homes being carved into apartments and a whole new cottage industry about making it in shared situations.

[Hortensis]

35. I hope not, Marion's Ghost. We're a fabulously wealthy nation. Let's copy our grandparents and

turn the 0.1% upside down and give them a good shake. Massive, poverty-creating wealth grabs have become a planet-wide problem, including for most advanced nations, not just us. The few who's avoided it are prosperous examples nobody's missing. We just have to get mad enough, as it gets worse and worse, to correct this problem. All over again.

[marions ghost]

48. My view is not so rosy

We are not living in the same times as our grandparents. What's a "good shake" these days? What's the correction for this? I don't think anyone really knows at this point.

I'm tired of trying to "correct" a system that is corrupt to the core. The 1% will continue to take and take. These Corporate Rethuglicons are not capable of reform. Their narcissist/ sociopathic traits will allow them to exploit the rest of us without the slightest bit of guilt or concern for the good of the whole. They have demonstrated this for several years now. I have business-oriented relatives who have money and influence, and those who don't. I see the situation clearly. It's not theoretical to me.

I think many Americans will be forced into extreme austerity conditions before it's all over.

I hope you're right and that people will get mad enough. Maybe when they can no longer get their anti-depressants. That is what it will take. The type of anger that makes people band together and fight back. Because it will never be granted by the 1% rich corporates.

[redruddyred]

99. oh yeah they're already doing that here in nh

have to do something with all these old farmhouses.

[marions ghost]

112. Old farmhouses

--and newer steroidal houses. I think we'll see the apartmentalizing of all sorts of larger dwellings out of necessity.

Ye Olde American Dream is being replaced by the New Austerity. It may be less wasteful but it won't be particularly fun unless you have a really positive group situation. The biggest barrier may be psychological.

We should start thinking that maybe there are some positives to it. Because we will see it.

[redruddyred]

115. the biggest barrier, imo, is people's inability to get along w/ each other

in any meaningful way.

if the behavior of the majority of my coworkers is any indication, I can't see any communal living situations working out in the near future.

or roommates for that matter. gawd I've had some awful roommates.

[marions ghost]

117. I know

it's true. The worst thing is how competitive everybody is now. And rude. Everywhere I go people are barely civil. The stress of these times is a good bit of it. It's OK to grab whatever you can and to hell with anyone else.

Yeah roommates--I actually had one that worked out for 10 years but I think that's unusual. Have had the bad ones too.

I'm convinced we are going to have to learn to get along better to survive in the less prosperous future. Recently I found a couple of friends that I get along with pretty well. But it's like we are all shell-shocked, burned by people so much we can't believe it's really possible. Very tentative, baby steps, cautious, vigilant. Like you have to watch out for the troll in everyone to jump out...

[redruddyred]

120. I think we are socialized from birth to act like assholes. thanks neocapitalism.

only in the leftwing political organizations I've been involved with have I met people for whom I do not have utter contempt.

(at the risk of sounding like a snotty jerk, that's an emotion I reserve for other snotty jerks.)

[WinkyDink]

23. Young people plan on different futures. How do old people decide on the financial arrangements, if

said elders aren't related? If one geezer dies, who gets the house and stuff?

[former9thward]

27. You can write a will giving your assets to anybody you want.

Being related has nothing to do with it.

[Warpy]

34. Have you ever tried communal living?

Even renting out the kid's room in those family homes is awful.

Most of us gave a sigh of relief when we could finally afford to live without roommates.

People who have such a rosy attitude toward communal living either have very short memories or never experienced it.

Now co ops of small houses on land communally owned so developers can't get their mitts on it might be a viable idea.

However, screw the commune idea. No thanks. Been there, done that.

[leftyladyfrommo]

65. None of us are interested in living with strangers

We just keep cutting back to save the house. We can't afford those retirement communities.

[Warpy]

80. No kidding!

At some point, you'll probably have to go for a reverse mortgage, meaning you'll leave your kids nothing when you die except a few pieces of jewelry and some furniture that is old but not yet antique.

However, it's still better than moving in with a bunch of strangers in old age. It was tough enough at 20 with idealism to buoy people along. It is just not going to work for people in their 50s and 60s.

I mentioned land communally held in a land trust with tiny houses and trailers on it because I do know of one such arrangement that is working. People live separately and come together for business meetings and the occasional pot luck, usually combined. Other than that, togetherness is not forced. It's the most humane way I can think of for old folks to pool resources and survive.

[liberalmike27]

97. Living with Roomies While Young

Well, it's somewhat tolerable, because you're into the same things. The last time I had one, at around 40, he was horrible, almost burned the house down coming home drunk. I had several instances where he came home from a bar, and turned on the stereo in his room so loudly that I snapped up in bed. IT was awful.

Plus generally when you're poor, you already live in small homes. This one has one bathroom--for some reason I've gotten more germaphobic as I've aged, so the idea of it, well it just doesn't sound so good.

[CountAllVotes]

3. As a married person ...

We've been living like this our entire lives and have never known of other ways .. like owning a house worth $500,000.00 is unbelievable to us.

Would I change things if I could?

Yes, I would. No one likes living at/near poverty level, no one.

[Skidmore]

88. Pretty much our story too.

Never have made above $60K with combined salaries. We have very little in our home that hasn't been recycled or repurposed. We only buy new if we need a major appliance.

On the surface it looks like we have much. For example, we have a large media library but most of it comes from boxes of VHS and DVD materials that people leave at the curb. On the surface it looks like we have invested thousands of dollars in entertainment. We have only purchased one television in twenty years yet we have several in the house. My husband has been given several of them by people who did not want to repair them or wanted to go to the next model. He repairs them himself. It looks like we have spent thousands again. Used or free books on the bookshelf and on my computer. Every lamp in the house was one that was thrown out by someone else. Side tables in the living room are repurposed trays mounted on stools (made them myself and they look great). Some of the wall art are reclaimed from stuff people tossed out and we have found a couple of pieces of value among them.

What we do buy is food, phone and internet service, copays on medical services, vehicle and vehicle maintenance (an essential where we live), utilities, and occasionally we replace clothing (although I tend to wear stuff I like forever).

We get by. It is much easier because we no longer have children at home and they are busy raising their own families now. Financially, they are so much better off then I could ever have dreamed for myself during my lifetime. I am pleased that they are able to raise their children with less financial stress than I experienced in raising them but sometimes I think that the having of stuff is ever so much more stressful than living with essentials. The older I get the more I want to be saddled with in terms of just sheer stuff. Basically, the essentials for survival without undue worry and an occasional something to nourish the soul is all I would like at this stage of my life.

[CountAllVotes]

89. I have nothing but old stuff as well

I have three television sets, one with a built-in VCR on it. The other two are small ones but hey, they still work.

I dumped the cable down to 12 channels about a year ago (saves about $70/month). We never go on vacations, never.

As for furniture, I have a 25 year old sofa and one recliner and a bunch of very old furniture that belonged to my late parents with dates on them that say 1950; the year my late parents were married!

I buy what clothes I have new as I learned my lesson the hard way about buying used clothing!!!

I bought something "used" that was made out of wool and it had clothing moths living in it and they spread throughout my entire house and I lost thousands of dollars worth of all sorts of things ranging from old rugs to the scotch tape dispenser! My god what a horror of a time I have been having as of recent.

It was just last week that the local power company sent a rep. over to "give us a new refrigerator". There was no new refrigerator in the deal at all (a total damned lie it was!). What he did was red-tag my furnace, stove/oven and even shot to shut down the hot water heater (no luck awhole). He was so stupid that he changed the setting to VERY HOT (RED) and I damn near got burned in the shower before I figured it out. We, yes we, had to figure out what this idiot did and reset it to a lower temperature.

Complaints filed up the awhole believe me by ME and that was after my highly depressed husband (who is 78 years old, a vet and going blind) said, "I want to commit suicide". Sonofagoddamned B*TCH!

Power company full of B.S. lies and NO, they will NOT GET AWAY with this! They want the likes of "us" to be = DEAD!!!!!!

Next step for me will be the District Attorney ...

On and on this crap goes and no, the poor never get a damned thing best I can tell. These greedy people (yes greedy -- had a person call me up to tell me I needed a new furnace for $3,000.00 and gee, financing is available I was told! This was NOT THE CASE but it was the power company that had this place call me up and tell me this pile o'shyte!). Old furnace is working again and it made me know for certain that these people do not care about "us".

[Skidmore]

92. I hear you.

People apparently are going to commence caring a lot less, I fear. Hang in there.

[CountAllVotes]

93. Thank you

I feel very alone and like a total loser being I can no longer work thanks to having MS.

I was told that the low-income housing in Marin is available if you make less than $80,000.00/year and the cost is $900.00/month for a one bedroom apartment!

$80,000.00/year?

How about $8,000.00/year = homeless.

One big giant again.

[redruddyred]

100. oh yeah disability payments are ridiculous.

nowadays, when people get sick, they go camping. permanently.

[CountAllVotes]

108. Some one on SSI gets more $$$ and help than I do

I made the mistake of working for 20+ years before I found out I was sick. Stupid me ...

[redruddyred]

114. yeah I think if you don't work and get paid poorly you get better benefits.

there needs to be another welfare reform, but I hate to think what a republican-controlled congress would make of it.

[JimDandy]

103. What is red tagging?

Don't understand why the electric company would be involved with providing fridges or have anything to do with appliances. Sounds like you didn't want him in your house but he entered anyway. How is any of that legal for him to do?

[CountAllVotes]

107. It was a clear case of misrepresentation

Once the guy got in my house and told me that he had no refrigerator for me (mine is too "new&quot he began to say, oh well let me give you this new shower head for your shower. He began working his way around my entire house and checked the furnace and said it had a problem and the stove (same story) and called up the power company and said that I'd be up and running again within 24-hours. That is what red-tagging is = shut your furnace off so you cannot use and the stove was the same story.

He ended up leaving here 7 hrs later and don't you just know he raked in some OT on that "visit" to help the disabled/elderly.

My husband said the same thing: What authority did he have to red-tag these appliances? He is nothing but some two-bit awhole making $9.00 an hr. that knows nothing.

My friend I was speaking with told me to contact the District Attorney and also the Area Council for the Aged and also the local Senior Resource Center to see if they can assist me. I filed a compliant with the BBB already and they want me to close the matter.

OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!!

[Autumn]

4. Recommended because for true, that is the new reality for so many of us.

It's almost like we lived the same life. I now live on a fourth of what I lived on 13 years ago. I'm hoping to hang on one more year until my house is paid. But it's hard, food goes up, more medications that are necessary. I shop thrift store for many items. Can't catch a break on utilities and as soon as the insurance deductible is met it's time to start over. No accident in years or tickets but my car insurance keeps going up and coverage goes down. We can't get a break.

No we don't vote republican. We know better, they would take what little we have.

[pnwmom]

9. Have you tried shopping for better insurance rates lately? There can be quite a difference. n/t

[salib]

12. You are sounding like a GEICO ad

[magical thyme]

13. AAA lowered my insurance costs quite a bit. Geico couldn't even come close.

They offered a combined homeowners and auto, which lowered both.

[pnwmom]

19. My mother's house insurance went up by 50% in one year for no apparent reason,

so I called another major insurer and got a bid that was only $20 higher than what she had paid the previous year.

Never assume they'll be the same.

[magical thyme]

14. I live on 1/4th what I made 15 years ago, which was the end of my peak

Thank dog I have enough land to grow much of my own food, which this year is really starting to pay off in reduced food bills. Or at least, holding them very steady.

Driving a 17 year old honda civic and hoping it will last the rest of my life or at least until I don't need a car any more.

Next year I turn 62. I'm going to start collecting social security and keep working. Try to live on one check and use the other for house repairs and/or pay down student loans. If I'm able to sell this place for enough, I'll pay off student loans, downsize house and location and move way, way out...

[Enthusiast]

17. Move way out? Way way out? Don't move too far out.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[SheilaT]

22. Do pay attention to the fact that there is

a limit to how much you can earn and not have your SS cut while you are below your "full retirement age" which I think would be 66 for you. Right now, if you earn more than $15,480 (going up to $15,780 in 2015) they'll cut your SS benefit by one dollar for every two dollars you earn over that amount. I believe that it is the following year that you lose the SS, so do plan very carefully on this.

[magical thyme]

26. that money comes back to you once you reach full retirement age

It used to read as a one-time payout, but now it reads in the form of higher SS payments.

You get the money back that they withheld *and* your earned income continues to contribute to your SSN income. Page 14:

"If you are younger than full retirement age and some of
your benefits are withheld because your earnings are more
than $15,480, there is some good news. When you reach full
retirement age, your benefits will be increased to take into
account those months in which you received no benefit or
reduced benefits.

Also, any wages you earn after signing up for Social
Security may increase your overall average earnings, and
your benefit probably will increase.
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10077.pdf

[SheilaT]

47. Just as long as the reduction

won't hurt you financially.

[magical thyme]

59. any reduction now is made up for later, when I fully retire

In these parts, I don't expect to exceed the max working p/w anyway, but my main point is that it's not a pat answer. Different people's situations are different, and if the money comes back to you in increased payments later it can make a lot of sense.

For me, I can live off one check and pay down/pay off my student loans and/or make major repairs/upgrades to my house with the other. SSN gets adjusted annually as I continue to knock the last of the very low income years off my average.

Then when I fully retire, I don't have major repairs on the house or student loans hanging over my head, plus at 65 I get a small pension if HP doesn't steal it, and then at 66 my SS gets adjusted if any that was withheld while I was working. And without the student loans hanging over me, I can sell my house at a loss, enabling me to downsize to reduce my property taxes, heating costs, etc.

So for me, it makes far more sense than continuing to run myself into the ground and feeling miserable working at one p/t job I hate and another p/t job that I like but can't get enough hours at to support myself.

[SoCalDem]

122. Did you EVER think you would stil be paying student loans at 62?

Debt is what has crushed the (formerly) middle class..

We are living totally on SS (and my small pension) It sucks to be bringing in less than half of what we had before my husband retired, but we are managing.

We saved every penny of his wages for the last 3 years, so we have savings, and we plan to never touch the 401-k because it's not going to last long once we start taking out (other than the mandatory withdrawal each year)

The only way seniors can live decently is to have no rent/mortgage payments and no car payments and no debt..especially when one of the couple dies..My pension will still pay my husband 3/4 of what we get now, but my SS will go away.. If he dies first, my SS will go..

And since we never know how much medical debt we could get stuvk with, so it;s a pretty intimidating time to be old..

[magical thyme]

125. I did because I went back to school late. however I also expected

based on Federal employment projections for health care in general, and med lab tech in particular, 14% job growth/year with continued, full time employment instead of the 1-2 days/week of per diem I get.

And I expected, based on statistics regarding the pay range, and the salary range provided to me and to a classmate by the HR at the local hospital, to have a starting salary that was 25% more/hour than what it turned out to be.

So I expected to have them comfortably paid off by 65-66, unless I sold my house for a reasonable price sometime after 62, in which case I'd be able to pay them off, downsize and retire.

Instead, I'm surviving in the income based repayment program, and watching them grow inexorably. By the time they are "forgiven" and I owe the one-time income tax payment on the loans plus accrued interest, I'll likely lose my home and end up in the streets in my 80s. Unless something happens before, like maybe I'll die first. Or maybe the GOP will end the program, demand repayment, and I'll lose my home sooner and end up in the street sooner.

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. We are all good at thrift stores.

And shopping at those low cost grocery stores.

I. Worry because my furnace is old and i will need a new roof before too long. And the plumbing needs work but that will just have to wait.

[shanti]

8. waiting....

when i retired at the end of 2010, i thought all my big ticket items were ok and i'd be fine on half the income i'd had been living on. i own a very modest 2/1 home, and i'm pretty frugal. what i didn't expect is for my roof AND HVAC unit to go kaput within 3 years of retiring. i had savings when i retired, but it's pretty much gone now. now i have another bill (the HVAC), and since the ACA, my previously dirt cheap medical insurance ($20 month) jumped to $120. long story short, i was doing fine after retirement, but it's becoming increasingly more difficult. i'll turn 62 in 3 years, so i'm looking forward to my early SS disbursement then - yeah, i'm taking it early!

[pnwmom]

10. You realize your dirt cheap medical insurance wouldn't have covered you for anything important?

[jtuck004]

11. But the banks are reporting record profits, we made sure of that. Feel better yet? n/t

[happyslug]

15. That use to be called "Working Class".

Since WWII, the propaganda was do to the great economic engine that was the American Capitalist Economy, the old Working Class could live Middle Class lifestyles. Thus many working class stiffs started to call themselves 'Middle Class" and this was especially true if the terms were limited to "Rich, Middle Class, and poor'.

On the other hand over 1/2 of the people who call themselves 'Middle Class" would opt for 'Working Class' if that option was available. 10% of the people would call themselves Poor, 10% Rich, 40% Working Class, 40% Middle Class. The "Cutoff" tended to be based on the type of work they did and Median Income (Roughly $50,000 a year today). You could have a "Middle Class" professor earning less money then a Working Class Steel Worker (A case one of my Professors pointed out in the 1970s when he was discussing some of his old High School fellow students and what he and they were earning in the mid 1970s).

I bring up the above story for it shows that often the division between Working Class and Middle Class is vague. It does exist and when given an option to show the difference, people recognize and accept the difference. On the other hand, the working class took the biggest hit in the 1970s to 1990s and in reality can NOT go any further down. The Upper Middle Class was hard hit by the inflation of the 1970s (and that they did NOT have cost of living clauses in their contracts) but recovered in the 1980s as the Working Class went rapidly down hill (mostly with the lost of Cost of Living Increases, so that inflation slowly ate their income away).

In the 1980s till 2008, Credit Card debt and student loans kept the working class afloat, but with the economy collapse of 2008 even those options are gone.

Karl Marx made an observation on WHEN AND WHY revolution occur and his observations are read and followed even by the CIA today. Karl Marx was the first to show WHEN such revolutions occur, NOT when things go from bad to worse, but when things bottom out and start to improve. Marx also pointed out as things go downhill, it is the lower end of the Upper Middle Class that indicts a revolution (when what Marx called the Petit Bourgeois income is squeezed so that they are pushed into the working class, you have a revolution. i.e when the people making $50,000 to $100,000 end up making less then $50,000 a year, a revolution is on its way).

You seem to be reporting what Karl Marx said occurs just before a revolution. It is the base a revolution springs from. It takes something else to release the spring but when it is released it is these former upper Middle Class people, who are now in the working class, that lead the people in the revolution. These are the leaders in the street, in the offices and factories who then end up supporting the top end of the Revolution (Who tend to be from the Upper Middle Class for they have the money to be in a position to take over, as opposed to these lower level members of the upper middle class who tend NOT to be in a position to take over.

Side note: Such local leaders can move up as the revolution progresses, but are rarely mention as leaders in the Revolution. Most of the Russian Generals of WWII had small roles in 1917 Revolution, they moved up afterward. In Germany many of the people who ended up running Germany during WWII, had only a small role in the Nazi takeover in 1932, but moved up afterward. In Iran you saw the same thing after the Revolution of 1979.

Just a comment that this is NOT a good sign.

[AndyTiedye]

33. This is Why the Koch Brothers and their Ilk Want a Theocracy

No matter how repressive a theocracy becomes revolution simply. does. not. ever. happen.
No theocracy has ever fallen to a popular uprising, anywhere, at any time in recorded history.
Some secular monarchs who somewhat incidentally claimed "divine right of kings" may have lost their heads,
but a full-on theocracy, never.

Perhaps it is because things never do bottom out and get better, they just bottom out and stay there.
That would also explain why Dear Leader is still in power in North Korea.

[tabasco]

36. Educate me

What are five "full-on theocracies" that have existed?

[happyslug]

41. Koch do NOT want a Theocracy, unless it is one based on Ayn Rand.

Last edited Thu Nov 6, 2014, 08:46 PM - Edit history (3)

The Koch brothers do NOT want a theocracy, for sooner or later the dogma of whatever religion that that theocracy is based on comes out. Right now that is Christianity in the US and Western Europe, and it is difficult to reconcile the teaching of Jesus with Ayn Rand. An example of this is Supply Side Jesus:























http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2003/09/The-Gospel-Of-Supply-Side-Jesus.aspx

Thus you quickly see the story of Jesus (and Moses and Muhammad) are NOT compatible with modern Crony Capitalism. Thus Ayn Rand is the book the right support, and it is more an Anti-Marxist, Anti-People, pro-Social Darwinist book. Ayn Rand REJECTS Christianity even more than the most radical Marxist.

Given this background, they do NOT want a Theocracy if that is based on Christian-Judea-Islamic traditions (and what they want as a Theocracy is NOT supported by Hinduism or Buddhism). Thus they want a Theocracy based on Ayn Rand, but her wring is basically screw the poor and anyone not making $50,000 has to reject her writing for that is the group that has to put its most alliance on help from Friends and Relatives (And such support is supported by the above Religions).

The Koch Brothers want an Ayn Rand Paradise (or hell hole for anyone without money) but you can NOT have a popular Religion based on that doctrine. You can not have a religion that says most of its most enthusiastic followers will go to hell. It is self defeating for that reason.

Now the Koch Brother want their dogma, Social Darwinism to be the religion of the land, but even the Christian Right have rejected it. When President Bush was in power and the GOP had both houses of Congress, did the Religion Right get want it mostly wanted? The answer was no.
No law outlawing abortion on the Federal Level, No law giving the religious right more freedom to campaign for candidates. Some bones were thrown to the Religious right, but the main thrust was on cutting Social Security (which many of those same right wing churches came out to support, i.e. they wanted to preserve Social Security and Social Spending).

The Koch Brothers dismissed these demands of the Religious Right, they brought out the old horses of the Religious Right, Falwell etc, but they all failed to get the vote out (Kerry received moire votes in 2008 in rural America then Gore had done in 2000, it was in the inner cities that Bush won his Reelection, getting unheard of votes out of urban areas to off set Bush lost of Rural Votes).

Do to the collapse of the Religious Right after 2008, the Koch invented the Tea party. Many of the same people had been religious right but with the Tea Party the demands of the Religious Right were ignored for it was the demands of the money right that the GOP heard and obeyed not the Religious Right.

I bring this up for what the Koch brothers want is an Ayn Rand Hellhole and if they can find someone to make a proper religion that the people making less then $50,000 will embrace based on her writings, the Koch brothers will support that leader. The problem that is a Supply Side Jesus not any religion meant to give people hope.

[Odin2005]

40. YAY, a fellow Marxist!

[happyslug]

46. Actually I am a radical capitalist....But in many ways so was Marx.

Marx was dead on when it came to Revolutions, when they occur and how they occur. He was an advocate of taking charge of such Revolutions by having a central group willing to take charge when it came time to lead that revolution.

In Egypt that is still the Moslem Brotherhood for the Communists in Egypt are to small and disorganized to launch lead such a revolution. In Iraq it was the Shiite leadership, thus they were able to take charge when the US Military had taken all of Iraq and the US needed a Civilian Government. The Shiite leadership had the size to take charge and did.

Lenin made the comment that it only takes about 5% of the population to lead a revolution, but that 5% must be united in thought and leadership. Lenin used the Jesuits as an example of what he wanted in a revolutionary group. Small but large enough to take charge of groups from local clerks in a department stores to groups of peasants complaining of their landlord. Each member of the Party must be willing to do his or her part in grabbing the revolution and moving it forward, but in a way the party wants the revolution to go.

As I said the Moslem Brotherhood was doing this in Egypt till the Egyptian Generals decided he was to radical for them (for he was moving to take at least some of the wealth of the Generals). The Shiite Leadership of Iraq did this right after the US took Baghdad, the US thought its puppets it had selected to lead Iraq could take control, but the Shiite Leadership said no, they took charge. Please remember it was protests lead by the Shiite Leadership that lead to Iraq elections. The US Government did NOT want elections they just wanted to make their puppets the leaders of Iraq. The Shiites were strong enough to lead the people of Iraq against that plan.

As to myself I have read Marx and have seen his good and bad points. His good points is how and when revolutions occurs. He also mentioned how to take charge of them (which the Shiites did in Iraq and the Moslem Brotherhood did in Egypt).

Now, Marx himself said it would take 500 years to achieve Socialism, but in his old age he saw things changing that indicated the revolution he advocated may be avoided if the causes of the revolutions were addressed by Society. On the other hand Marx made a comment no class has ever given up power without a struggle.

Marx strength is in his analysis of revolutions, his concept of stolen labor (and I understood it and why he used that term) has been rejected (and the term made a term of fun as to Marxist as some sort of statement of an idiot not an observation that all capital started as labor by someone somewhere).

OF Marx I like mentioning the comment Keynes made in the 1950s in a meeting of Keynesian Economists. Keynes said it was NOT a Keynesian Economist. The same with Marx, in many ways communists as implemented by Lenin, Stalin and Mao were NOT Marxists and had Marx lived till the 1930s, he would have denounced Stalinism and later Maoism to say if those were Marxist states, he was not a Marxists.

[Paper Roses]

16. Your post is spot on.

Can't tell you how much of your post fits my life.
I'm older, a widow, shop at thrift stores(when I do shop), shop grocery sales, savings about gone, living on SS only, my last job moved south. Could not find another.

Do not qualify for any kind of assistance because I own my house. Never mind that I have a (don't do it) Reverse Mortgage that is rapidly eating up the equity.

Sure never expected to be in this position so late in my life.
I try and stay upbeat but sometimes it is just 'beat'.

[Boomer]

18. Solo living is a luxury

The expectation that individuals can (and should) live alone with all the amenities of a family group -- house, car, utilities -- is one of the reasons our standard of living is bankrupting the planet. This was definitely the way I was raised, and I love my independence just as much as anyone, but it's not only an excessive lifestyle, it's one that leaves too many of us vulnerable for all the reasons outlined in the OP.

Americans have lost the habit for maintaining family/community groups that other cultures take for granted. Group living pools resources and provides a safety net for the elderly and the sick. We have a very rough adjustment period ahead of us as we start having to re-align our solo lifestyles into communal groups in order to survive.

[Warpy]

37. Not if you're not too particular

If you're willing to downsize and live in an old trailer, you can do it quite well. They're cheap to heat and cool. All you have to do is find a place to park it and around here, there are a few parks that take even old Airstream trailers. People who are still married can afford to downsize into small houses.

Healthy families can provide social and financial safety nets. Please try to remember that not all of us had one.

[Art_from_Ark]

49. Trailers might be OK in areas that aren't prone to tornadoes

but in places that are hit by tornadoes, they're among the first structures to go.

[Warpy]

50. The probability of being hit is very small.

Just try to find a place with a storm shelter.

[Art_from_Ark]

54. Where I'm from, any time there's a tornado,

the news will invariably report that some trailers were damaged or destroyed even if nothing else was. You probably don't have that type of weather in New Mexico, but in Tornado Alley, trailer homes can be very vulnerable.

[Warpy]

56. We get occasional tornadoes but they're mostly on the other side of the mountains,

it's just too bone dry on the west side of them to support super cell thunderstorms.

There have been 3 reported in my county since the 1880s, 2 of them in the last 20 years, none was strong enough to do any real damage. They'd touch down briefly, kick up some dust, and then fall apart.

However, the statistical probability that any trailer in tornado alley will be hit is incredibly small. Yes, they do get hit in various places all over the country and when they get hit, they are gone.

That's why you need access to a storm shelter. So do people in stick built houses on slabs. So do people working in sheet metal warehouses. Tornadoes don't play favorites. The statistical likelihood of one hitting you is incredibly small, though.

[Art_from_Ark]

58. On the other hand, they seem to be getting more frequent in my old stomping grounds

They're even occurring well outside of their traditional March/April season, with a couple of recent ones occurring in December/January, like this one:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/tsa/?n=weather_event_30dec2010

[leftyladyfrommo]

66. There are some nice trailer parks now.

I wouldn't mind a small trailer except I have dogs.

[Warpy]

81. The woman next door to me had a basset hound and a chow

It took about 2 weeks to make friends with them and about a month before the basset hound (a real sweetheart but loud) would respond to "Hush!" when she started to bark at a workman. Dog ownership varies from park to park.

I loved living in a trailer. There was a place for everything so what is cluttered in this house always looked tidy there. The park was nice, with swimming pools and club houses for those who are more sociable than I am. I recommend it highly. Just make sure there's a shelter if it's in MO.

[Boomer]

62. Not the American Dream

The kind of down-sizing you describe is a practical alternative to communal living; it's not upholding the middle-class solo lifestyle that the OP was describing or that so many hold as the optimal standard of living, even when alone and not part of a family.

Sadly, I don't need to "remember" that not everyone has that family network, because I'm in that very same boat myself. There isn't any family safety net for me. The solution is to form our own communal living groups with friends rather than blood relatives, but I'm very much a loner. Even recognizing that this is the most practical answer makes it a difficult one for me to put into action.

[Warpy]

64. I'm terribly introverted

I can handle groups, I just need a lot of alone time to recharge my batteries.

My dad wanted me to move out of this neighborhood into one with bigger houses that he automatically considered safer (but isn't). I tried to point out to him that living in one of those yuppie barns meant cleaning the damned thing, so no thanks.

[SheilaT]

20. You are not describing lower middle class.

You're describing poverty.

[Go Vols]

90. +1

[Yavin4]

21. According to most Republicans, you are wealthy

If you're living standards are higher than someone living in a mud hut in India, then you are super wealthy. In fact, you are stealing money from the job creators.

[Hortensis]

25. According to our neighbors here, if you're not them specifically or affluent, you're unworthy,

undeserving of better, having failed to secure your own prosperity no matter what happens around you. They've become very certain of that, no discussion needed: The material worth of people they don't know being in virtually all cases a sufficiently accurate reflection of those people's moral standards and willingness to be a responsible adult.

Mean times, and I'm describing...nice, pleasant, ordinary people. In my observation, most of our strongly conservative neighbors here have no idea just how far they've been drawn off the straight and narrow moral path they believe their parents raised them to, which always has run dangerously close to that abyss to their right anyway.

[redruddyred]

101. people in india don't live in mud huts tho

not most of them.

and they don't have to be constantly reminded of ted cruz' existence what's more.

[SomethingFishy]

24. The new reality is that most households are a couple paychecks away

from being homeless. That's where we are. Doing ok, have all those things Republicans think make me a rich man. A TV, a refrigerator, a computer with internet access, a microwave and a playstation..

However, my savings is gone. Dwindled over the last 6 years or so. I haven't seen a raise in 9 years, my wife got very sick and we have medical bills piling up.. If I lose my job we are screwed..

I also see many many families moving back in with their parents, lots of households with grown kids and grandkids sleeping on the couch.

My prediction? If they hold the House and Senate and take the Presidency in 2016, we are done. Climate Change is already passed the tipping point, it's just a matter of how far they are willing to let it go. With the GOP in charge not only will they let it go, but they will make it exponentially worse.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. I like LL Bean for clothes and shoes. Higher initial cost, but

an honest to Gods lifetime warranty, and the cloth is heavier as well. I had a half inch rip in a shirt, and my housemate simply took it into an LL Bean store while she was visiting her parents, and they simply took it and let her pick out any brand new shirt in the store in exchange. No receipts, no problems, simply a new replacement shirt.

[nruthie]

29. You have described me and the majority of my friends.

Older women, mostly widowed, walking a tightrope and hoping we won't fall, but slowly and surely we're losing our grip.

[marions ghost]

32. welcome to DU

Actually I saw this happen to my grandmother. She made it to 96 with virtually nothing. But it was a very restricted existence.

[leftyladyfrommo]

42. Widowed or divorced.

Many of the divorced women are in worse shape.

I'vee always been single but so many married women have husbands that trade them in for a newer model. Lots of times they end up with nothing. And ther x's have new families and have moved on.

If you don't want children getting married can be a real trap later in life.

[RiverLover]

60. That is me, and you are spot on correct.

Good for you for avoiding the trap!!

[One_Life_To_Give]

38. Underemployment

May not have caused you to vote R. But doesn't mean it didn't cause many others to. Until that is fixed there will be many more elections where the vote is for other than the status quo.

[leftyladyfrommo]

43. It's such a waste of human resources

to have all these really educated, experienced people working at minimum wage jobs. If you are over 40 there is so little hope of ever finding another job that payswell. You not only can't get a job you can't even get an interview.

[leftyladyfrommo]

45. It sounds like it will only get worse.

Automatio and computers are just sucking up all the jobs.

[Jon Ace]

57. Don't worry, the Job Creators are creating jobs

overseas.

[leftyladyfrommo]

67. We could allpack up and move to China

There is factory work there.

[One_Life_To_Give]

73. Engineering/Professional Work too in China

I have seen Engineers who had to go searching for a job in China as well.

[Odin2005]

39. The correct term is WORKING CLASS.

The whole concept of "middle class" is Capitalist propaganda to divide the Labor Aristocracy from the rest of the proletariat.

[leftyladyfrommo]

44. Except we aren't working.

No one can find a job.

We have become the non working class andno one in govt cares.

[eppur_se_muova]

79. More like "desperately need work" class. nt

[randys1]

51. This is the agenda of the Koch Bros...and a few others, Walton's etc. This is what they want

[Warpy]

52. If you can't afford fresh fruit and veg, you're not middle class, even lower middle class

You're the working poor. The lack of ability to buy nutritious food is one of the hallmarks of being the working poor.

What is appalling is that women over 50 are pretty much shunted into that category no matter how productive they are at their living wage jobs. Once they remind that HR twit of Mom, they're done.

Fruit is what I missed most. Canned fruit was about it. Applesauce was especially helpful.

All working poor get by. I spent my entire working life getting by because I couldn't get health insurance.

If you were middle class at all, you'd have a house you could pay off and that would leave you a nice retirement nest egg.

[RiverLover]

61. The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

April 2014

..."Lawrence Katz, a Harvard economist who is not associated with LIS. “In 1960, we were massively richer than anyone else. In 1980, we were richer. In the 1990s, we were still richer.”

That is no longer the case, Professor Katz added.

Median per capita income was $18,700 in the United States in 2010 (which translates to about $75,000 for a family of four after taxes), up 20 percent since 1980 but virtually unchanged since 2000, after adjusting for inflation.

The same measure, by comparison, rose about 20 percent in Britain between 2000 and 2010 and 14 percent in the Netherlands. Median income also rose 20 percent in Canada between 2000 and 2010, to the equivalent of $18,700."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0

[leftyladyfrommo]

68. My house is 750sq ft.

I live ina lower income neighborhood but it's not high crime. Everybody has a car. Most people work somewhere.

I don't think of myself as impoverished. Probably other people seeme that way but I don't. I grew up very middleclass.

[Warpy]

82. That's about how big my house is

with a badly converted attached one car garage that I'm using to house my enormous beast of a rug loom.

I was impoverished and it wasn't fun. My dad surprised me with a portfolio that generates enough income to live on, enough to buy fresh fruit so I'm middle class at last, even though most people would be pinched by what I live on.

[CountAllVotes]

110. That sounds like the house I have

Two bedrooms and one very small bathroom which needs to be remodeled badly. I cannot find anyone to help do this job. One guy said he'd redo the caulking in the solitary disabled shower unit that is in there for $300.00. When I asked him, "What about the rest of the shower?". He said that was up to me to do and that I should be used to doing hard core ass busting work being I am a homeowner. I told him that if I was well enough to do all of this, I should be looking for a full-time job somewhere. What a greedy bastard!

I told him that as a person with the disability that I have which is MS, that this is no longer a possible thing for me to do as I live in severe pain and that moving is painful for me much less scrubbing down a bunch of tile and whitened grout. He could have cared less as to what the job entailed, he just wanted $300.00 to recaulk the seal around the pan on the shower unit which needs to be replaced (or something!).

As for my husband, he cannot do it as he has partial sight in one eye only and can no longer read nor drive. He cannot see well enough to do it plus he is pushing 80 years old for Christ's sake (and a vet if that matters one tiny little bit!)! He even tried to get him to do it believe it or not. I feel so very sad for my husband. He is from Ireland and has had an extremely difficult life. Being drafted into the U.S. Army illegally was just the tip of the iceberg that broke and fell off after he came to America in the mid-1950s. Shame on all of us for allowing such crap!



FUCK YOU PUKES! Every damned one of you!!!

[hfojvt]

53. sounds like you are all single

you should get married, or move in with a friend.

Two can live easier than one. Cheaper and easier.

I tend to do many of the things you listed, not so much because I am poor, but because I am cheap, and also environmentally conscious. Should I turn up the thermostat enough, like many Americans, so I can wear short sleeves in the winter and no long underwear? Should I want to waste electricity? Or water? (and actually I can waste some water. The water company charges me a minimum of 200 cubic feet per month and I typically use less than 100 cubic feet (748 gallons) so I could almost double my usage and not pay any more (and in fact I do extra lawn watering in the dry months for that reason).

I could mostly give up my car tomorrow and not miss it, but I sort of have two of them.

I don't really care for fruit and veggies, and I never worry about having enough money for food.

For clothing, I would say that thrift shops are cheaper than Wal-mart, by a long ways, but I rarely buy clothing. Partly because I get hand-me-downs from my little brother.

I wish I could meet some of your friends.

[leftyladyfrommo]

69. We don't want to get married.

Most of us aren't interested inmeeting men. We've all had enough of that. Attachments to men have caused a lot of older women to end up on the poor end of things.

[hfojvt]

75. so there it is

you'd rather be poor than married.

As for what "attachments to men" have done to them. Well, I probably spent $1,000 courting the one woman I courted and even after she told me to get lost, I put $500 in a college fund for her 5 year old daughter.

I have 50 year old classmates who tell me they are lonely, and one suggested that I should be going to coffee shops to meet women. But I don't have THAT much interest to run into a whole bunch of women who "aren't interested in meeting men" and most especially wouldn't be interested in meeting me.

But presumably my income, my health insurance from work, and my $150,000 net worth could help a girl out if she was lucky enough to meet me. And there are presumably other life benefits as well. As I noted, as a single guy I do all of the shopping, all the cooking, all the dishwashing and other cleaning, all the yardwork, all the home repairs, all the bill paying, all taking care of the dogs, and so on. It takes almost as much time to go grocery shopping for one as it does for two. Having a partner would mean less work for both of us.

I have a movie collection of perhaps 300 DVDs and videos, and a music collection of perhaps 200 CDs. Two people can get a collection for themselves at half the cost. And so on.

Anyway, marriage is not the only way for people to live together. It is possible to do the same thing we did when we were poor college kids - same sex roommate(s).

[leftyladyfrommo]

77. Have you tried Match.com?

I'm sure there are plenty of women who would love to meet a nice man.

My crowd isn't interested any more but that does't mean all women think like that.

[hfojvt]

78. yes I have, two or three times

In my experience there are far more satisfying ways to throw my hard earned money into the wind.

Considering that I ran for County Treasurer, it's not like I am hiding under a rock or something.

Of course, about a month after that election, I made a joke to a friend of a friend on FB, and she says (joking) "hfojvt, whoever you are, I love you" Meaning that she loved the joke. (Did I mention that I make people laugh? Once I called this woman to ask for a date, and somehow stayed on the phone for twenty minutes. At some point I noticed that every couple of minutes I would say something funny and this woman would burst out laughing and I am thinking "damn, I am making this woman laugh, why doesn't she want to go out with me?" (Perhaps because she was kind of my supervisor and she knew I didn't have a very good job?)

Anyway, there I am a month after the election and a local woman is saying "whoever you are?"

I felt like I could do American Express commercials "Do you know me? I ran for Congress and County Treasurer ..."

[bhikkhu]

119. "you'd rather be poor than married"...

a person shouldn't have to make that choice, and marriages of economic convenience seldom lead to better lives.

[DebJ]

63. About cooking economically for one or two people:

My husband is on a specialized, highly restricted diet for kidney disease. If I ate his diet, I'd have a coronary from lack of potassium.
And I'd stop eating altogether, because I can't eat the same things all the time.

So I have to 'cook for one', mulitiplied by two, for each of us. It's a real pain to fix two separate dinners every night; two sets of pots and pans or baking dishes etc. So I DON'T do that.

Here's what I do:

I buy all meats in bulk. Before i freeze them, I cut them into serving size portions (like chicken breasts today are humongous....1/2 a pound and more! So I cut into 4 oz sizes, which are 3 oz when cooked.) Chicken breasts, raw, can be stored a very long time. About every three months the price drops to $1.99 lb; that's when I stock up.

Other meats, I cook ahead, before freezing, but in a big batch. For example, hamburgers; I'll cook up to 8 at a time. In this fashion, I'm only using the gas stove once, only cleaning the pan once....less labor and less soap and hot water. The same for manwiches, or taco meat, etc. I do the same for all of his meats, precooking all that i can, then freezing the portion sizes.

Also I cook a double portion of brown rice, then freeze in 1/2 cup servings. Mashed potatoes, the same. Pasta, the same. He eats a lot of pasta salad.... I found out I could freeze it if I made sure it was pretty dry before freezing it. I let it drain awhile, then put it in an 8.5 x 11 tupperware container, then blow dry it with my hair dryer. Then I freeze portions in cheapo portion bags (they don't seal, you twist the ends up), and put the whole batch in a heavy duty freezer bag that I reuse until it doesn't close anymore.

So, when it comes to dinner, I have a choice of something to grab that I paid a lower price for by buying in bulk, on sale, and is a quick nuke away. No pots or pans, just my plate. His too. All I have to add is the veggies and/or fruit.

Our chest freezer cost about $120 and paid for itself in four months or less. It holds two months of food for both of us, plus the frozen foods that I keep up to 6 months out (but usually four months; almost all meats go on a good sale at least every four months). He has to eat Pepperidge Farms whole grain breads (lowest sodium around), and it is d&*m expensive... $4.29 a loaf, which 2 years ago was 20 slices, then 18 slices, and now, only 16 slices for the the same price. BUT I watch for sales, can catch it at $2.99 a loaf, and it freezes well with their packaging style. Or, when we go to Jersey, I go to the local Pepperidge Farm outlet store, and I literally fill our back seat (he eats a lot of their cookies too). The cost savings covers the cost of our gas up there, so it's like a free visit to the family for us.

If stocking up is near impossible because of the current situation, I lived that way for decades raising two kids so I know what that feels like. Nickeled and dimed to death. But maybe with your friends you could go in together to buy in bulk.

I'm 59 and made the mistake of completing my college degree to teach 5 years ago, just as tens of thousands of teachers were laid off. No jobs for me, not that this hole in the wall of a town has any jobs except drug counsellors and shrinks anyway. Still have $10k in debt from college, and can't work. Then hubby, a teacher, had to retire early due to his illness, but just because the school district was working down a list of highest paid first to be harrassed and stressed out of his job.... the stress combined with his illness would have been fatal, and we knew that, but that doesn't qualify one for disability under SSI, nor does it do so for the pension plan. So our income lost $1000 a month for the rest of our lives, and our health care for three years has been over $18000 a year plus copays. The living room ceiling sprung a $2000 leak, and then we got termites, another $2000, around the same time. Just as my parents, in their 80s, quite suddenly became near helpless and losing their faculties very quickly. And my son's bipolar disorder whacked him mercilessly for a year. The financial challenges have seemed less relevant because of the emotional heart-rending that accompanied the last three years. Praise God, that part has finally subsided. But now, financially, we are barely hanging on. In March, with Ted Cruz's permission, he will get Medicare, so our health care will drop to aboutr $1000 a month and MAYBE we can make up the $10k in debt we had to accrue to survive this long.

I am glad to hear you have friends. Hubby and I have become rather isolated. After 20 years of working together and playing together as a team, things have become so painful teachers don't want to hang out together anymore, and this WAS our circle of friends. The up side is that this has strengthened our marriage. The down side is our social circle is almost empty at this point, and if one or the other dies, the remaining spouse will be very much alone. For now, I'm just glad for this time together, every day, and for having the skills to save my husband this long with the diet I created for him. I try not to think of the future. For now.

Thanks for sharing your story. Somehow it always help to know we aren't totally alone in struggling.

[leftyladyfrommo]

70. Thankyou for writing all that down.

I don't cook but my friends all do. I eat pretty much vegan so i just fix a big salad every day and put a can of beans in it. And i buy fruit and frozen veggies. You can get really big bags of frozen fruit andveggies. I just steam everything.


I eat ok. I really am lucky to have good health and I need to keep it that way.

I have my own petsitting company of one. I don't make a lotbut it's enough to really help.

[magical thyme]

84. I do much the same you do food-wise...I sprang for a chest freezer a few years ago

and jam it full of veggies that I grow, plus bulk meat on sale.

After my leanest, scariest years, I've scrimped and saved to get to where I am always working off a backlog of food for me and all my animals.

I buy bulk meat on sale, cook it all at one, portion it out into ziplock baggies and freeze it. That way I can bring hot meals to work that are ready-to-go, healther and far cheaper than supermarket stuff.

I pile up canned soups on sale in the fall for over the winter. Plus harvest, cook and freeze veggies. I have piles mac and cheese and pasta and rice in one cupboard, tuna & spaghetti sauce in another, and canned soups in a third.

I used to buy canned beans, but sprang this year for a crockpot -- why did I wait so long?!? -- so make dried now instead. Cheaper and healthier.

Gardening is an ongoing experiment in learning to grow more expensive veggies as much as possible. I raise cheaper ones too, but only for practice for the day when I don't have any money. Fresh carrots are cheap at <$1/pound even organic. Eggplant is costly, but this year I successfully raised 20 plants. Potatoes are cheap, but I grow organic, deeply colored potatoes that would be $4-5/pound at the supermarket -- very high in phytochemicals and other nutrients compared to white potatoes. I lost a lot of my kale to crickets. My 5 sorrel plants this year started turning into a patch. Lost a lost in the spring to snails, but in the fall it comes back really strong. I'll be making sorrel soup again this weekend. I'm also saving seed when it makes sense. I got 40 purple potato plants for free this year, from potatoes left over from last year.

In the summer I eat fresh raspberries daily, and harvest and freeze enough to get me through the winter. I also buy frozen blueberries and strawberries for over the winter. Flash frozen is far superior to canned, and also nutritionally superior to off-season fruits and veggies that have been stored and shipped for days. The chest freezer enables me to maintain decent stocks of everything. Then I eat off a backlog, so if I get laid off I don't have to worry about food shopping while looking for work.

[DebJ]

123. It would be fun to have you as a neighbor. We think alike.

I'd like to do more gardening myself,but I have been too busy with family concerns spread across several states.

Maybe some day!

[magical thyme]

126. It's a lot of work in the spring, and a lot of work at harvest

but it's very rewarding when I'm eating food I grew.

[KingCharlemagne]

87. Your post is one of the best arguments for (Democratic) Socialism I have read in

quite some time because of all the suffering you and your spouse have undergone, most of it at the hands of or due to actions taken by our capitalist political class. I have little I can offer you, other than comradely solidarity and sympathy. My wife and I are in near-identical circumstances (save that our place doesn't have room for a freezer chest), so I read your post as thought I were reading about my own life.

As a practical aside, I've learned that one can use one's crockpot to prepare stews and such (using on-sale ingredients) and then freeze several leftovers for later consumption. (I've got a whole roasting chicken going in our crockpot right now and will turn some of it into chicken curry and some more of it into a chicken cacciatore sauce, both of which can easily be frozen.) Allows one to take advantage of those sales you reference, although I think you have us beat in the economizing department.

[DebJ]

124. :)

[whereisjustice]

72. "We didn't vote Republican."

That's all that matters to the DNC. They have spent hundreds of millions of dollars getting you to vote for them even though they are actively supporting the trade policies, war policies and outsourcing, tax breaks, health care and other policies and industries that are sucking wealth from the middle class.

And guess what? They continue to talk about increasing social security age. It has not been taken off the table.

And they sit around scratching their behinds wondering why they can't get more people to vote as Democrats.

[truedelphi]

98. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^n/t

[ladyVet]

118. ^^^+1

I hate the way we have to vote for people who truly aren't any better than the Republicans. I used to believe there was some difference, but not any more.

They won't have to wonder why I don't vote Democratic next time. I truly believe in the platform, I just can't seem to find any body running for office who does.

Once upon a time, I figured I'd work until I could take full retirement (which is 67 years and nine months!). But my health has gone down hill and with my age and lack of any relevant job skills, I'm screwed. I'm hoping there will be SS for me to take early retirement in five years.

I'm single, and have no desire to get married. Being married is no guarantee you won't be poor, either. In my experience, it makes me more poor. I still live in my old, falling-apart single-wide trailer. It's paid for. My kids still live at home. They can't afford to leave. We hope to get our land paid for, and save some money to buy a repossessed double-wide so everybody can have bigger bedrooms and more room in general.

We're poor. Or working class. Whatever sounds better. We get by, some days better than others.

[840high]

128. +100

[CrispyQ]

74. I am so glad we didn't buy a bigger house 15 years ago

& instead paid off the small one we live in. Best decision ever.

And produce - the healthiest department in the grocery store & also one of the most expensive. And the local farmer's markets? They are even more expensive.

[leftyladyfrommo]

76. That's why I do frozen. n/t

[redruddyred]

102. you can't shortchange your health tho.

my neck of the woods has it's own family-run farm with competitive prices. also a ton of people taking advice from the occupy movement and starting their own veggie gardens. yours truly included.

[joanbarnes]

83. Add: Looking for trinkets and collectibles to sell on E-Bay or Craigslist.

[GTurck]

85. I hear whining....

It is hard to go from one level of income to another but you wrote about things that a good 30% of Americans have done all of their lives in a sort of pity us tone. Sorry but I am among those who have had to watch every penny we had since day one of our marriage almost 54 years ago; we still do in retirement. Going to Walmart is conflicting for many of us "Lower" middle class but they have the things we need and often are the only real providers in suburban and small town areas. And it is not hard to cook economically for 2 people. We have done so for nearly 30 years; our bill only going higher with the raising of food prices not changed eating. No you are not among the Lower Middle Class but among the Working Class and that is not a bad thing since we are what American was built by.

[leftyladyfrommo]

86. $49,500 for a fitted out railway container car.

There we go.

I just saw this. Its one of those containers the trains pull. Doesn't look too great on the outside but the inside is really pretty cool. Bathroom, bedroom, living room, kitchen. Granite countertops.

All you need is a little plot of land to put it on.

[missingthebigdog]

104. If you are willing to do that, used mobile homes are often very inexpensive.

Someone who is handy can turn a used trailer into a nice home fairly cheaply. And it isn't uncommon to be able to find a used single wide for ~$5000.00.

[hobbit709]

91. There's no middle class. There's the poor and the almost poor.

[enid602]

105. class

I prefer the term upper lower class. Seems a bit classier.

[Stonepounder]

106. We are also 'lower middle class'

To those of you out there with a modest nest egg left, may I make a suggestion. Look into buying a 'mobile home'. Yeah, yeah, I know 'trailer trash' and all that. There are some very nice mobile home parks out there if you look. With real yards and trees and so on. We bought a repo for about 60% of the asking price. We have a 3 Br, 2 Ba, LR, DR, Kitchen, Breakfast nook, and laundry room. Small decks front and back, fenced for our dogs, and a 2-car driveway at the end of a cul-de-sac that backs onto a forest. Our home is paid for, since we are seniors we get a 'homestead exemption' so pay no property tax, and our lot rent is $300/mo. Try finding that in an apartment anywhere.

Even though our little neighborhood feels like exurbia, what with the forest behind us that will never be developed, we are 5 miles or less from just about anything we want/need. Stores, doctors, hospitals, malls, hardware, etc. When your rent is that low, it makes those SS checks stretch a lot further and makes it easier to shop in the produce section.

[libodem]

109. Somebody looked into my life

And wrote this story. How did you know I keep the thermostat at 60?

[kimbutgar]

111. I have so many single female friends struggling like you describe

I only work part time. Finding a decent job at 58 is impossible. I do free lance work to survive. My husband still has a good paying union job with benefits at a major airline. We feel grateful but nervous also. This Koch congress will try to legislate the destruction of private unions and I hope Obama doesn't sign the bill to appease them. I hope he defies them in the next two years and gies gonzo on them. Because if the Koch congress gets more power and a Koch appointed President in 2916 we women over a certain age could lose our social security and ACA and Medicare. Then we will be really f'ed up.

[Spiggitzfan]

113. I can definitely relate to that.

Although I am younger, it doesn't really make me feel better (as if I had more opportunities or more time to work things out)- Instead it just means my friends and I have that much further to hold out, or that much further to fall if we can't. We appreciate our education, but nurses and teachers are expected to do the work of 5 people nowadays just like everyone else. And being an "evil public employee" means that our conservative neighbors consider us to be just better educated, more "uppity" takers. We're all watching Detroit and Chicago as trend-setters when it comes to how we can expect our states and districts to wiggle out of their contractual obligations to the hard-earned benefits that we had counted on. And being mostly female, and some single, my friends' financial situations will affect their children's lives for many years as well. Some "recovery", eh?!

[roamer65]

116. Prices on everything are 10 times as high as they were in the mid 1960's.

Have wages kept the same pace? The answer is "no."

That's why we saw minimum wage referenda passing everywhere they were on the ballot.

I am not surprised by your situation and we will hear more of it if we don't change course.

[leftyladyfrommo]

121. My first apartment was

$50 a month. I was in college working part time for $1.75 an hour. No car. I walked everywhere. Ate a lot of mac and cheese. Some of y best times ever.

[UglyGreed]

129. Pehaps a new name should

be given to those of us who are between the poor and middle class. Under class may fit the bill.