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You don’t protect my freedom: Our childish insistence on calling soldiers heroes deadens real democracy
It's been 70 years since we fought a war about freedom. Forced troop worship and compulsory patriotism must end
David Masciotra
Put a man in uniform, preferably a white man, give him a gun, and Americans will worship him. It is a particularly childish trait, of a childlike culture, that insists on anointing all active military members and police officers as “heroes.” The rhetorical sloppiness and intellectual shallowness of affixing such a reverent label to everyone in the military or law enforcement betrays a frightening cultural streak of nationalism, chauvinism, authoritarianism and totalitarianism, but it also makes honest and serious conversations necessary for the maintenance and enhancement of a fragile democracy nearly impossible.
It has become impossible to go a week without reading a story about police brutality, abuse of power and misuse of authority. Michael Brown’s murder represents the tip of a body pile, and in just the past month, several videos have emerged of police assaulting people, including pregnant women, for reasons justifiable only to the insane.
It is equally challenging for anyone reasonable, and not drowning in the syrup of patriotic sentimentality, to stop saluting, and look at the servicemen of the American military with criticism and skepticism. There is a sexual assault epidemic in the military. In 2003, a Department of Defense study found that one-third of women seeking medical care in the VA system reported experiencing rape or sexual violence while in the military. Internal and external studies demonstrate that since the official study, numbers of sexual assaults within the military have only increased, especially with male victims. According to the Pentagon, 38 men are sexually assaulted every single day in the U.S. military. Given that rape and sexual assault are, traditionally, the most underreported crimes, the horrific statistics likely fail to capture the reality of the sexual dungeon that has become the United States military.
Chelsea Manning, now serving time in prison as a whistle-blower, uncovered multiple incidents of fellow soldiers laughing as they murdered civilians. Keith Gentry, a former Navy man, wrote that when he and his division were bored they preferred passing the time with the “entertainment” of YouTube videos capturing air raids of Iraq and Afghanistan, often making jokes and mocking the victims of American violence. If the murder of civilians, the rape of “brothers and sisters” on base, and the relegation of death and torture of strangers as fodder for amusement qualifies as heroism, the world needs better villains.
It is undeniable that there are police officers who heroically uphold their motto and mission to “serve and protect,” just as it is indisputable that there are members of the military who valiantly sacrifice themselves for the sake of others. Reviewing the research proving cruelty and mendacity within law enforcement and the military, and reading the stories of trauma and tragedy caused by officers and soldiers, does not mean that no cop or troop qualifies as a hero, but it certainly means that many of them are not heroes.
Acknowledging the spread of sadism across the ranks of military also does not mean that the U.S. government should neglect veterans, as they often do, by cutting their healthcare options, delaying or denying treatment, and reducing psychiatric services. On the contrary, if American politicians and pundits genuinely believed that American military members are “heroes,” they would not settle for sloganeering, and garish tributes. They would insist that veterans receive the best healthcare possible. Improving and universalizing high quality healthcare for all Americans, including veterans, is a much better and truer way to honor the risks soldiers and Marines accept on orders than unofficially imposing a juvenile and dictatorial rule over speech in which anything less than absolute and awed adulation for all things military is treasonous
http://www.salon.com/2014/11/09/you_dont_protect_my_freedom_our_childish_insistence_on_calling_soldiers_heroes_deadens_real_democracy/
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merrily
(45,251 posts)It's very cynical, as is their jingoism.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)popular but I feel we need to reinstate the draft. We need the public to have something to lose. Not to rely on a mercenary type of military we can send to war very easily. We all need to have skin in the game.
merrily
(45,251 posts)unless we somehow find a way to put a bigger fear into them than the demonstrators of the 1960s did.
A coalition was just about coming together around economic fairness, civil rights fairness and war opposition. The prospect of that happening scared D.C. We got the civil rights act, the voting rights act and the Great Society, but the war had to go on. Then there was the assassination of MLK, Jr., Robert Kennedy and the student anti-war demonstrators at Kent State.
Most of the New Deal and the Great Society are gone. Social Security and Medicare are next, and the never ending war on "terror" will continue, lest we "brave up against the establishment again.
In 1929, they got scared and we got the New Deal and Fair Deal. In the 1960s, they got scared. Now, they are ready for anything we might try. Scaring them again is going to be much harder. I don't know if we can or will even try.
atreides1
(16,093 posts)In case you were unaware the Selective Service is an active agency of the United States government. There are already draft boards currently in existence across the country.
I was a member of a board in Tucson Arizona...the standards for granting an exemption are much higher then they were during the Vietnam War...with the exception of someone claiming CO status, there are no longer any permanent exemptions, and student exemptions are only for the semester.
Boards are now made up of a cross section of people that live in the area covered...which means that there are blue and white collar workers, men and women that are now part of the board.
And the boards can be up and running within 60 - 75 days notice!
Here's the Selective Service System site:
http://www.sss.gov/default.htm
dotymed
(5,610 posts)much more popular than you know. Of course with our MSM liars we wouldn't actually know.
IMO, a mandatory (no exceptions except for SS certified 100% disabilities) draft would greatly reduce American warmongering. TPTB do not want their children certified as 100% disabled nor do they want them in harms way.
These young people should have access to the full G.I. bill, medical care for life, etc...
Since we do not live in a Democracy, it won't happen.
I truly believe that a majority of Americans would support this measure. Especially since we poor people see military service as a way for our children to earn a decent living and get much needed benefits.
We sure as hell do not want our children in harms way, yet they are "cannon fodder", even exposed to deadly toxins by our own MIC.
The pols would (assuming that mandatory service was the law) stop the endless wars, dangerous exposures, etc.. because they, like we peons, care about their children.
How convenient for them.
adirondacker
(2,921 posts)
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Police have military equipment for a reason. Police tanks are not for our protection.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)I have thought about the academies and question whether they should even exist. They are not the only option available. Many fine officers are graduates of university ROTC programs. Perhaps in an bygone era they were necessary for the development of professional soldiers since other options didn't exist.
These young men and women, most of whom are honorable persons, are given a fine education at the totally at the expense of the tax payers. Their benefits far exceed the vast majority of scholarships provided by other institutions. Yes, they have a minimal obligation to serve, but the majority eventually leave the service. However, even during their service they are paid a respectable wage and provided with housing and food. So they not only get a first class education free of charge but a guaranteed job. The problem with this type of education in which during an important phase of their development they are segregated from any interaction with opposing views.
If they were educated in universities they would be exposed to a more realistic society then the what military academies offer. In fact, I would argue that to a certain extent they are brainwashed to accept a militaristic view of the world. Another factor is that these are the people that are put in charge of indoctrinating young impressionable enlisted personal. This situation is compounded by the all volunteer military that further isolates them from contrasting views.
Why should we not expect that the government should provide the same benefits for all of our youth, many who graduate with staggering debt and in todays economic environment may not find suitable employment for a number of years? I venture to guess that many of these young people perhaps regret that they didn't apply for an appointment and get on the government tit.
merrily
(45,251 posts)more visibility.
BTW, as you probably know, I don't think it's only our own troops we train at military academies. I think we may train, for example, Egyptian officers there as well. Not 100% sure. I thought I heard that during the Egyptian Spring.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Our military's sole responsibility in the 21st century is being used to protect private interests and profits. Why are we in the Middle East? Big Oil. Why are U.S. ships escorting oil tankers near Somalia? Big Oil.
Are they heros? No. But I will give them the respect I think they deserve because they are volunteering to go into harm's way if there ever IS an actual military threat. I will also give them respect because, for many, it's the only way out of poverty. Remember, higher education is no longer affordable for most young people so many choose the military which will help them pay for school.
Label them as heros? No. But give them the respect I think they've earned.
merrily
(45,251 posts)He sees what I see. That America, especially the left, is being brainwashed on militarization, war and related subjects. I say "especially the left" because Atwater and the Republican politicians to whom he was a guru got Republicans well on board years ago. (Ironic, because, not long before that, Democrats were considered the war party and WW II isolationists were mostly on the right.) Now, it's the turn of Democratic politicians to get the leftist anti-war and non violent hippies out of the way of the MIC and they've been working on it steadily.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)They will be in anger management classes eventually.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Bettie
(16,129 posts)also cheapens the word, making it much less resonant for truly heroic acts and people.
It bothers me that all that is required for "heroism" these days is to join the army.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Which I've never heard anyone claim...
Bettie
(16,129 posts)But not everyone who wears a uniform is automatically heroic, simply for having on the uniform.
Just like there are cops who are heroic, firefighters who are heroic, but not all.
I don't think I said that there were no heroes, I said that the term is cheapened by those who claim that EVERYONE is heroic simply because they wear a certain outfit.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)also cheapens the word, making it much less resonant for truly heroic acts and people.
So yes, you did state nobody in the military is a hero.
Oh, and it is the sacrifice required to wear the "outfit", not the "outfit"....spoken like someone who has never given, only taken...
Bettie
(16,129 posts)Any person wearing in the military is automatically said to be a hero.
I am guilty of lack of clarity. You got me.
So, you are among those who believe that all people with guns and uniforms are automatically heroes.
Good to know.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I simply had to read and comprehend English to determine your position.
Bettie
(16,129 posts)You were looking for something to be offended over.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Bettie
(16,129 posts)Yes, then I am.
Heroism is a different thing than service, it is more, going above and beyond what is expected.
But again, you were looking to be offended and you were.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Bettie
(16,129 posts)I didn't think it was so hard to understand.
liberalhistorian
(20,819 posts)"nobody in the military is a hero". The phrasing of his sentence indicated that he meant that EVERY single person who puts on the uniform is labeled a hero, and that is certainly not the case. What he meant was that anyone who puts on the uniform now is called a hero and that's no more the case than every single person who's a police officer or firefighter is a hero. Yes, there are heroes in the military and among fire and police personnel, but not every single one of them just because they have on a uniform. It was clear enough what he said, you probably just didn't want to see it.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)And is a very likely opinion in these parts...lots of military haters as is evidenced by this very thread. .
Scuba
(53,475 posts)pipoman
(16,038 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)...or and or.
There was a time when doing your job meant you did your job and didn't expect to be treated extraordinarily because of it. There was also a time when heroism was bestowed for service above and beyond buttoning a uniform.
Bettie
(16,129 posts)And not parsing the words I used.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Oktober
(1,488 posts)Pretty sweet deal and all I had to do was get shot at in the asscracks of the world multiple times for months and years at a time...
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Bettie
(16,129 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 11, 2014, 09:48 AM - Edit history (1)
for understanding my point and not assuming some sort of nefarious intent!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it is covering the back of people in your unit. Quick response in pulling out a mate from a burning humvee, yep. Actions such as this produces heroes. All are to be commended for feeling responsible enough to join a service of the military and for following their orders, whether the military should be undertaking a certain campaign or not.
Two weeks after getting in country RVN, I had volunteered, not being well versed on geopolitics I knew I was in DS. My family is/ always was career military. But 2 weeks after arriving I was saying to myself, 
well you don't want to hear it, but I stayed, followed orders and came home vowing never to watch another John Wayne movie. That last part is a joke, but war does not make one a hero, it sometimes makes one dead or a casualty with arms, legs gone and from this last one brain trauma. I agree, in principle with your statement. War and the death it causes is ugly, ugly ugly.
on edit: and war produces bravery and cowardice. But mostly bravery for being in harms way. So heroism is relative.
The Wizard
(12,549 posts)and managed to avoid getting hit. I'm no hero, just a kid who was drafted and lucky enough to return home upright.
Part of the uniform worship we see now is a reaction to how we were treated upon returning, the other part is the uniformed personnel who perished and were injured trying to save people on 9-11-01.
Some of the things we did were far from heroic like leveling villages of people who just wanted to be left alone. I saw guys who were otherwise normal get demoralized by the war and consequently commit immoral acts.
Not everyone in uniform is a hero, most aren't. And when I hear the USA USA USA chant a chill goes up my spine. War is not a spectator sport, but rather people hunting for people who are hunting for them.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)My father, who had been in the navy during WWII, said that when I got back, he wanted to see just the campaign ribbons on my uniform and nothing else. I came home with them, plus a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts. My father took one look and said, "I didn't want to see those."
None of my three sons has ever spent a day in uniform.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Welcome home, brother. From one 1542 to another. 
(Benning School for Boys, OC 502-68.)
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)But it was the first one in the 65th company. (The company commander was then-Captain Jack Jacobs, who was awarded the Medal of Honor during the time I served under him.)
I forgot to mention my CIB in my previous post.
I was in the 1/502, 173d Abn Bde.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)My class number, OC 502-68, meant that we were graduated on 5/2/1968. I was in 54th Company, along the street facing the jump towers.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Yeah, I was in SeaTac heading home when I found out how much of a hero I was. I've got a few stories also. Glad you made it.........
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)soldiers in the national dialogue whenever we talk about and gather in ceremony to honor our heroes.
It seems picking up a weapon and killing is an unfortunate and destructive last resort it doesn't make sense to glorify.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)of politics or politics is just an extension of war....take your choice.....for the reference purist....Sun Tzu. War is NOT glorious....in my book it is a horrible waste of human potential and life, and usually in this 21st century....based on BIG lies.
independentpiney
(1,510 posts)Not to be a reference purist, but that statement is from Clausewitz' 'On War'.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I am just Sun Tzu obsessed. Got Clausewitz also, thanks.
independentpiney
(1,510 posts)I was trying to think of any Sun Tzu axioms that were similar and couldn't, though I don't doubt there may be one. I think Sun Tzu is much more universally applicable to strategy, whereas with Clausewitz, especially with logistics, you often have to drill down through detail that's fairly specific to late 18th/early 19th century warfare to get to the useful ideas.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)critical correction is always necessary to stay on course.
Nothing offensive or too narrow in perception. As the kids say, "it's all good".
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Invent and improve themselves. ..no scientists involved, they're all just heros!!1!
Marr
(20,317 posts)They didn't say "all scientists", just as anyone who understands english knows that the other poster's words could mean "no one in the military" or "just anyone in the military".
Stop trying to strap yourself onto that cross, for god's sake.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I'm prepared for an extremely short list compared to the numbers of actual working scientists .
Marr
(20,317 posts)There are countless scientists working in everything from engineering to climatology to physics to medicine and everything else, doing research that will either directly improve our lives, or broaden our understanding of the universe.
Asking for a list of names is just... god, I think you gave me a headache.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Are paid to come up with studies that bolster the wishes of those who fund them. Ever read a 30 year old scientific journal? Most peer reviewed studies are either redundant to facts already known or are later found erroneous. Of coarse this isn't to say good isn't done by science....most good however has nothing to do with heroism, it has to do with corporate profits. This isn't to say there aren't scientists who are heroes or are acting honorably. ...just not near the percentage of enlisted military.
Marr
(20,317 posts)There are disreputable scientists, of course-- just as there are disreputable people in any group. Of course, a disreputable scientist is just a hack, while a disreputable cop is an actual menace.
And let's be honest here. Few people join the military to be a comic book hero. They join because it's a steady paycheck and a way out of their hometown. That's why I joined up. And the people I know from there are just people.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And contribute to the insult on the hundreds of millions of Americans who have and are serving on this day before Veteran's Day. And I'll bet you're one who can't figure out why veterans largely don't vote for Democrats. ..
Marr
(20,317 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2014, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)
You said the scientific community is mostly paid hacks, and anyone who signs up for the military is probably a superhero.I said scientists do science, and people who join the military are mostly just regular people.
Rejecting your childish view of the military is not the same as attacking the military. You, however, are openly insulting the scientific community.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)It's a lot easier to determine what scientist has used their expertise to advance death and destruction than it is to discover which average G.I. Joe is guilty of war crimes.
Scientific advances in war tend to be high profile advances. We simply don't honor those scientists. Also not all science is about weapon making. But it's pretty much guaranteed all soldiering has a war component to it either as a major theme or a related activity.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)(whatever the fuck a "peacemaker" is...beyond a Colt revolver that is...) are all oh so heroic...ffs...
Oh the heroism of ADM, Bayer, BP, etc... yeah, them scientists are the real heros..
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)has used their expertise to advance death and destruction than it is to discover which average G.I. Joe is guilty of war crimes.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)As in most scientists are chasing dollars throwing morals to the wind, and most "GI Joes" (are you 8 or 90) are there for self improvement and other honorable reasons.
Oh, and again, WTF is a "Peacemaker"?
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)You really believe that? Most scientists who go through 4-6 or more years of schooling are chasing dollars and most soldiers are there for self improvement through dropping out of high school and the possibility of engaging in warfare?
I don't know how to respond to that.
Peacemaker? I guess one example would be Malala Yousafzai.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)You'd have to be 90 to remember when the military accepted high school dropouts. ..lol
You don't know how to respond because you're living in the past. The military is the only opportunity many kids have to get a college education without encumbering themselves for 30 years. Whereas most high school to college students can't get up and take a class before 11am and live off of their parents wealth as they summarily flunk out of every pre-11am class on their schedule. No, anyone who doesn't know that the vast number of military 18-25 year olds are there for honorable reasons are either ignorant or just out of touch....and those beloved ADM scientists who rack up a half million in college expenses are doing exactly what they are told with exactly the results they are told by their corporate minders....
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)So your argument is when soldiers who have gotten simple high school educations and are marched off to wars for oil in the Middle East they are trying to better themselves.
But when science majors go beyond high school and pursue a university degree in the sciences (most of them totally unrelated to war like climate science), they are doing what they are told by their corporate minders..?
Do I need to point out the contradiction of claiming the same behavior of pursuing education producing different evaluative judgements?
I suggest you look up irony or cognitive dissonance. Here:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)"scientists and Peacekeepers (still don't know what that is)" should be deemed heros, and those who risk their lives doing the business of your elected officials should be shunned.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)I think they're ultimately pawns and victims who have been sold a bag of goods.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And you think "scientists and "peacekeepers"" are heros..help yourself. ....
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)if it weren't for the science of modern medicine? I doubt it.
And yet look at the activity of warfare. World War 2 was perhaps the most militarized the world had ever been...what was that militarization for? All in the honorable goal of protection...and how many civilians died in WW2? Millions and millions. Engaging in the activity and practice of war obviously doesn't protect people. It puts them more at risk.
I don't beleive you can really think participating in violence on humanity is in any way honorable...ultimately, it's just a sad waste.
It is more honorable to run away from that shit then to join in.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And you likely wouldn't be alive or wouldn't be speaking your mind if it weren't for people who put themselves after your safety and freedom. Pretending it will all be good if you bury your head in the sand is a condition that can't be cured on a political forum.
Keep loving your corporate saviors.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)Staying out of World War 2 certainly didn't work for the Swiss with all of 100 civilian deaths during the whole war and zero military deaths compared to the millions of deaths for the nations that participated.
Your defense of the practice of soldiering over the pursuit of knowledge is becoming a joke.
I separately typed the word "scientist" and the word "soldier" into Google image. These were the first images that resulted for each:
Scientist:
Soldier:
Do you notice what each of them is holding? Do you not see the difference? One is holding weapon... which suggests the kind of activity they would be predominantly engaged in and to which others around them would be subjected.
The entire preponderance and evidence of history suggests humanity is far better off when humans limit their activity to engaging in science rather than warfare. All things being equal, humanity would be far better off without weapons of war and the people who wield them.
If you can't admit that or have some kind of mental block that prevents you from following that (or knowing what a peacemaker is after I gave you an example), I don't see how we can continue this discussion.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)that's probably the stupidest thing I've seen posted on this board in a long time. Holy fucking shit, that is stupid.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Are seeking to better the world and not pay off their student loans. Most scientists are working in the private sector. .profit driven...the next group are in academia trying to get or keep grants.
No, for every scientist who has been truly heroic, there are 50 cops and military who have actually demonstrated heroism...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)You are faulting scientists for being human beings, and no I didn't call them heroes by default, NO ONE is a hero by default, I just find your statement disparaging the majority of them to be childishly idiotic.
just us
(105 posts)The military industrial complex after Nam started program to change the military. They changed the oath and the vision of soldier. He was a warrior not a soldier and if you are very good at it you can get great pay for your after service position. They have to cover up the wars of aggression and useless loss of life. The majority of video games are warrior based. In forty years they have raised the vision of the foot soldier to evil fighting warrior. This illusion is part of the psyc. problems they are having. The rest of the world will eventually have to stop us.
brooklynite
(94,745 posts)I'm sure they appreciate your candor.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2014, 01:39 PM - Edit history (2)
the point is actual war. You know where a rifle, shell, bomb, missile, flame thrower, any implement capable of lethal human destruction is pointed, right? And why it is being used against another human being, in this the 21st century? With watching 15 years of bush-cheney war that is, at this stage, you know just like Vietnam, almost impossible to extricate ourselves from, right? Oil and PNAC imperialist intention are the only reason for us being in Iraq. No heroes fighting these wars, just people, probably forced by circumstance, financial and otherwise, to fight these wars who are following orders from very high up including bankers and corporations..
WHEN CRABS ROAR
(3,813 posts)to their country, their lives are taken, they don't have a choice in the matter, they are just followers of orders, their lives are taken.
God it's so insane, lets see now, is the winner the one that kills the most people are or is it the one that stops the killing of people, or is it the one that does the most damage to the environment?
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)then the athletes, entertainers, politicians and most of the other people we apply the word hero to.
As for the draft being re-instated, it will never happen and anyone in favor of it should be the first ones drafted, regardless of their age or physical condition.
still_one
(92,422 posts)to bringing the draft back believe it will keep us out of wars. If Viet Nam is any indication that assumption is wrong.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)and doesn't seem to shorten them either, they also result in a higher number of dead and wounded Americans
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)We've been involved in 4 major wars: WWI, WWII, Korea & Vietnam
And numerous conflicts: Haiti, Nicaragua, the Russian Civil War, Greece, the Dominican Republic, all of which occurred while we had a draft.
Doesn't seem a draft kept the US out of very much
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)besides a draft will mean more americans carry the burden of their elections or their choice not to vote than the handful of families that now carry it. less re-deployments and stop-loss
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)The size of the military, including the man power levels are set by Congress. So if you want more people in the military, then it means more money.
The President doesn't want a draft, Congress doesn't want a draft and the military doesn't want a draft.
Since I've served, I can certainly say I never wanted some draftee, who didn't want to be there in the first place, serving next to me.
If you are so in favor of a draft, you can be drafted first, regardless of your age and physical condition.
Ron Green
(9,823 posts)were every bit as good at soldiering as the "RA" guys who had enlisted. AND, they certainly brought to the ranks a healthy attitude of dissent that I don't believe exists in today's more privatized force.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)That was my experience with my Infantry platoon in Vietnam, too. If not for the 'RA' and 'US' designations on every ser of orders, I wouldn't have been able to tell the enlistees from the draftees.
I was a draftee myself, and I was the platoon leader. But I had volunteered for the draft by calling my local draft board and asking them to take me. I figured if I didn't like the military, at least I could get out in 2 years instead of the 3 years required for the minimum enlistment.
After all my initial training I went on to OCS and was commissioned. By that time I had 13 months in, including the 6-month Infantry OCS course. I was 19 years old, and later was leading a rifle platoon in 2/501 Infantry, 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam as a 20-year-old First Lieutenant.
When another platoon leader was badly wounded and the Medevac couldn't get in due to heavy ground fire, my men proposed rappelling into the firefight from choppers to take the pressure off so the wounded LT could be extracted. They had taken a vote--unanimous--to volunteer for what would have been a suicidal mission. Higher HQ nixed the proposal, but I'll never forget what those 36 men--enlistees and draftees-- were willing to do to aid a wounded comrade.
I'm sure there were some problems with draftees, but when the chips were down they came through with flying colors.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)My own experience was that most of my fellow soldiers were there because they wanted to be there and I certainly did not see a mindless obedience to orders. Of course I was fortunate in that I never had to see combat.
I am of the firm belief that our military is far more professional and capable then it has ever been. While there are occasional incidents of soldiers committing crimes that they deserve to be court martialed and imprisoned for, this isn't something new, it's just being reported now. If you read enough military history by the people that were there, shooting prisoners, refusing to take prisoners and various other crimes were not exactly uncommon.
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Day before Veterans Day....speechless.
still_one
(92,422 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)otohara
(24,135 posts)What troubles me about today's military is so many become govt. haters and Republican's.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)They will be ready to "come back to the Democratic Party". Sometimes it takes something drastic. But even so the OP is awful.
phil89
(1,043 posts)and why?
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Very disrespectful and low.
Otherwise nothing
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)
ellenfl
(8,660 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)is most unclassy. Wishing I never stopped to read this piece of crap.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,023 posts)earthside
(6,960 posts)The horror of the 'Great War' ... World War I and Armistice Day is more than appropriate for making the point that war is hell and it is a racket.
The end of the Great War is noted at 11:00AM on the 11th day of the 11th month; that day commemorated for the final end of the atrocity and massive death ad destruction it caused and the hope that it would never happen again.
Of course, that day has morphed into something nearly the opposite, especially in this country.
There are very few heroes in war, except that we have truly so cheapened the word that it almost means nothing. I'm nearly 60 years old and in my youth the word did mean something and there were few heroes, they were exceptional people. Not since the Vietnam backlash, however. Since then there has been a marketing effort to turn all military, police and emergency employees into 'heroes'.
One place to start to stop more wars is to get realistic about its consequences -- losing ones leg or eye in combat is not 'heroic' -- it is a personal tragedy for that individual. We don't need any more glorification and calls to be a hero for that kind of sorrow.
Ink Man
(171 posts)+1
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I just love it when people tell me what is acceptable thought.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)You can't weep over the benefits held from veterans
You can't gnash your teeth over America's poor being lulled into a steady paycheck
...
and then do this.
I've never been willing to lay down my life for my country, knowingly.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)They are laying down their lives for corporate profit and American hegemony these days.
ncjustice80
(948 posts)Why do we glorify pawns of the MIC?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and a large fraction are made uncomfortable by the increasingly pre-recorded quality of the mantra 'thank-you for your service', that emerges anytime experience in the military is mentioned.
To those who say bring back the draft. I say no. If you look at conscripted military service from WWII to Vietnam it was, at its best, a diversion of two years of life at poverty wages. At its worst it was being put into meat grinders to prevent imagined 'domino' disasters for capital interests which knew no loyalty or allegiance to soldier or country.
The notion that it was 'character building' or provided a sense of 'citizenship' is bad propaganda. Mostly it created a bunch of people with disrupted lives looking to survive bullets or boredom until their discharge. We recognize the carnage of combat as bad, but the consequences of boredom wrecked a lot of lives with substance abuse and behavioral problems.
The idea of using military service as a political tool to build anti-war concern, is just another version of using forced labor for political purpose.
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)....already. Where does the time go? See you all in a few weeks in the thanksgiving posts! 
Baclava
(12,047 posts)Getting called a hero for signing enlistment papers is quite a bit different from jumping on a grenade in a foxhole to save your buddies
so save the hero tag for those that really are
DrBulldog
(841 posts)... messed up screwed-up vets at the workplace as well. Typically they show abrasive, finger-pointing, accusative, harsh, demanding attitudes that drive their fellow workers away from them ... they're not heroes and not grown-ups.
ProgressiveJarhead
(172 posts)Messed up, screwed up civilians at work. Spoiled, entitled cry babies who don't clean up their messes, try to get out of work, blame everyone else for their mistakes, do a half-assed job when they do do it, could care less about going above and beyond, and would rather be staring at their phones than doing their jobs.
MOST of the vets and retirees are reliable and focus on the task because they are grateful to be working and know that the paycheck pays the bills. NONE of them consider themselves heroes and actually despise the use of the word. MOST would think twice about serving again because some elements of the civilian population are not worth the sacrifice. The vets appear to be abrasive to people who have never served, because they are not used to playing polite to make some sensitive person happy. When they layoffs came, the vets were kept. It was mostly civilians who were let go because of their complete lack of work ethic.
The military is a microcosm of the society and nothing more. There are bad elements there, but to generalize based on your experience at work is nonsense.
Keep in mind that these vets were civilians first, but at least they got off their asses and at least served some time. If it wasn't for them, they left the service. "All gave some, some gave all." And no, not everyone who serves is a hero.
Am I a hero for pulling a young woman out of an over turned car on the freeway while people stood there and just looked on? I'll never know because I handed her off to the paramedics and fucking left the scene. Am I a hero for stopping to help a man with two kids who ran out of gas because I went and bought a gas can and enough gas to get them going? No. I did what I had to do because it needed to get done.
I do what I can because I give a rat's ass about people. I guess that makes me a messed up vet.
DustyJoe
(849 posts)
Skittles
(153,202 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)which leads to anger management problems later on in life.
DrBulldog
(841 posts)... that's how disgusted I am with the "war hero" mentality of this country.
Skittles
(153,202 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts) Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
Nitram
(22,892 posts)started this worship of the military. They grew up and/or served during WWII, and came to believe that war is the best solution to international disagreements. Started a cult of unthinking respect of all things military. Short haircuts, authoritarian approach to child-rearing, unthinking deference to authority. I believe we do need a strong military, and I know that many in the military are good people taking on dangerous work in the belief that their country needs them. But I also see a tendency among many of those in the military to look down on civilians, glorify killing, and demonize other cultures. The same trend has infiltrated our police forces. I do believe we need to take stock and re-think how we train our military and police forces, and stop being so unthinkingly awed by those in uniform.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Military worship is fascistic. And certainly the sign of a declining society.
I'm tired of the military propaganda we get at every single sporting event. It makes me ill.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 11, 2014, 12:49 PM - Edit history (1)
some F-15's flew over our college football stadium a few weeks back. God the shouts and cheering could be heard for blocks. It just further informed me as to how lost this nation has become and how enmeshed we are in this militaristic adulation.....9/11 gave the PTB a certain victory over the american people and our psyche. Pretty scary.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)We are not doing what we need to do to support returning veterans. Not enough in money or resources for treatment, for education, for whatever it is they need.
They are being denied healthcare in many states that didn't expand Medicaid, if they are not eligible for the VA or TriCare.
Unemployment is 20% among veterans. And while some companies have made efforts to hire them, they also have to compete against people with college degrees or may not have the right kinds of experience in certain fields.
And then of course there are companies that exploit all their workers, like Uber and the new tech companies. Uber has made a big push for hiring veterans, promising $30-40 an hours. What they don't say is that is before their expenses like gas and insurance (you have to buy a commercial insurance plan, which is expensive). So it's more or less minimum wage in the end.
Politicians (especially right-wingers) make a big show of "supporting the troops" but then cut taxes and programs that actually help.
the hypocrisy of the RW IS staggering, especially when it comes to lip service paid but when it time to put up or shut up, they are liars, cheats and bad for vets. Hell, they're the ones that filled the hospitals recently. We have been treating vets like dog meat since Korea.
LP2K12
(885 posts)I am a veteran. I neither ask for or expect your thanks. I served, voluntarily, not for the thrill or opportunity to shoot things or to take the lives of other human beings. No. I served with the hopes and aspirations to be a force of kindness and good for Americans and for those beyond the borders of our nation.
I am not a hero. I served as a means of obtaining a college education. I would do so again, willingly. Like all aspects of life there are bad apples in every bunch. There are also those who really are heroic. My best friend, PFC Paul O. Cuzzupe was KIA in Afghanistan. Paul enlisted and became a combat medic. The week prior to his death, he was recognized. He was recognized not for saving the life of a fellow American, but for his efforts to save a local child was injured by an explosion. When all others gave up, he continued to work on the child until he passed.
A week later, PFC Cuzzupe was gone as well. Some might say he was doing his job. He enlisted to do that. To me, he is a hero.
Welcome to America. Where we feed, shelter and educate convicted criminals, but allow those who have served honorably to sleep on a cardboard box in the dead of winter. Where an eighteen year old mother or father making minimum wage is guaranteed a Pell Grant for education, but GI Bill payments are denied or held due to a lack of funds.
The goals of the government or the military industrial complex should not reflect on all of us. Some us just really wanted to help and do what's right.
Sorry, my rant is over...
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)It was a worthy rant
Welcome home 
The heros of conflicts do not walk among us.
They reside under the grave markers of countless cemetaries.
The living that returned from battle, whether whole, missing chunks of flesh
or mentally manacled by what they endured or witnessed are not the heros
but returned in part because of their brothers in arms that fell.
Like LP2 states, a dead combat medic may have enlisted, he was doing his job.
But, he went over and above the call, that distinguishes the hero.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)swing state were to espouse this.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Reality is .... alas.... complex. And not as attractive.
This is an outstanding ( And brave!) essay.
Happy Veterans Day.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Anyone who works on the nation's infrastructure is also protecting freedom. The press? Ditto.
Of course, these efforts are being diluted by bad eggs and corporate conspiracies.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)As a retired Union carpenter, 8 years building bridges, after that mainly hospitals, etc.. I feel like I contributed.
No I am not a hero. In my personal life, I have helped injured and those in bad predicaments..spent a year rebuilding after Katrina.....just a person who cares about others. BTW, I was well compensated for the carpentry but I did start a volunteer program in N.O. to help those who could not afford Union carpenters, they were some of the best people I have met.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)I've harped enough about the rapes. I've spoken on the romanticizing propaganda of war. I've posted the bits and pieces of wisdom from those wiser than I on the errors of patriotism. It's all out there for anyone who wants to look with an un-militarized mind. I'll add this... If you join the military of today you become part of the problem not the solution. You aren't fighting or our freedoms, you are fighting for the MIC, its stock holders and the "current policies" of the controllers of this country. Certainly those that stand for peace at all costs are on the opposite side of those who readily go to war. Imagine a country of people who never learned to kill and then look at our country with some introspect and critical thinking.
http://www.salon.com/2014/11/09/you_dont_protect_my_freedom_our_childish_insistence_on_calling_soldiers_heroes_deadens_real_democracy/
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)If you vote for the politician of today you become part of the problem not the solution. You aren't voting for our freedoms, you are voting for the MIC, its stock holders and the "current policies" of the controllers of this country.
It's the politicians, of both parties, that send our servicemen and women off to war.
As for peace, I'll be damned if I could find a time where there WASN'T a war or civil war going on somewhere in the world and I went back to 1750. I know for certain that the centuries leading up to 1750 were filled with wars.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Whatever. 
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)War seems to be the natural state of the human species, we've been killing each other for thousands of years and will be for the foreseeable future.
For better or worse, the US is the dominant power on the planet and we will take actions that at times benefits US interests as well the interests of countries that we have binding, legal agreements with.
CRK7376
(2,203 posts)but, I am a Soldier and have been for 37 years. I am proud of my service to this great nation! I do not like our politicians that have sent me and my fellow Service men and women in harms way, but that is the system we Americans have chosen. I wish the draft was still in effect with a public service option. I think, would like to hope, that our politicians and leaders would be a tad bit less War Hawkish if they had a family member serving or if they had served themselves. I have served on Active Duty, with the National Guard and the Army Reserve. We reflect America, we are not perfect and have many areas where we can improve. We are not all sexual predators, malcontents, stupid people, sheep or warmongers. We are Americans and when we signed the dotted line, we knew that there was a real possibility, especially these past 12-13 years that we could and probably would go in harms way. And many of us have, self included. I understand when people at BK or the gas pump stop and say thank you for serving, but it embarrasses me. Economics has driven many Americans into the military over the past 40+ years of Volunteer Service. I was one of them. At the same time, many of us including myself have a deep profound belief in serving our country. Our military is not perfect, we have good leaders and bad leaders, we have educated Service Members and those who barely escaped high school. No longer do the courts say pay the fine or do time in jail unless you enlist. Today, America has a Volunteer Force that does the best it can with the constraints we are given by the people of this great country. Don't blame the Soldiers for all the ails of society. Those who have gone in harms way are usually the most vocal about not committing forces to hostile shores. My time in the ARmy is over, now I will continue to serve in a different way.
Next month I will retire from the Army and return to teaching in a rural, public high school. During my 12 years in the Reserves, I spent those years teaching in a rural school system and loved it. Unfortunately, my state, NC did not pay me, a professional teacher, a salary that was livable for a family of five. So I returned to the Army. Now my service to this country is over and it is time for me to go back to serving the young people of my beloved North Carolina. Tomorrow is Veteran's Day and I will reflect on those who are truly hero's, our wounded, MIA, and those killed defending the United States. Thank you Veterans, this proud Army Soldier salutes you and your family's sacrifices!
still_one
(92,422 posts)Peacetrain
(22,879 posts)I have two young family members in the guard. they decided to join..both of them in high-school, when they saw the guard in action during floods in our area.. I am so very proud of them.. they are amazing young people.. and I think of the things they have been able to do to better our country.. I am so proud . I put this up earlier today, because Veterans Day means so much to me.. my Dad was a veteran of WW2.. Omaha Beach.. and he suffered PTSD all his life.. but he was such a giving man, who would do anything to help someone else.. and that seems to have been passed down to the young ones in the family.. Proud of you.. proud of them.. proud of Dad, who has passed away..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025796113
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Yet they're the ones who send us to war.
Doesn't make sense...
DustyJoe
(849 posts)The articles author has a definite ax to grind it seems, possibly other than the military. The article starts out anti-military and swings quickly to anti-police.
If protesting police brutality was the real target of the piece, denigration of military service wasn't needed IMO for the author to make his point.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)That costs democrats elections and center support....the day before Veterans Day....oh so democratic that hatred of 20 year old volunteers for whatever your elected representatives wish to use them for in return for the possibility of actually being able to afford a secondary education, or a reasonable retirement. Self centered hogshit it is....
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)onenote
(42,769 posts)If we're "forced" to engage in troop worship and patriotism is "compulsory", how did the author get away with writing this?
Pointless rant.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)They trot out soldiers and veterans like clockwork. Heaven help you if you don't genuflect in their direction. Or stand for the anthem or the compulsory "God Bless America" propaganda during the 7th inning stretch. I loathe that song as much as Woody Guthrie did.
Patriotism/flag worship/military worship are all the same thing these days. If you don't kiss their asses, you must not be a patriot.
onenote
(42,769 posts)And at every home game, there is a between innings "salute" to "wounded warriors" -- members of the armed forces who are being treated for injuries incurred overseas. Complete with singing of "I'm Proud to Be an American." And there also is the singing of "God Bless America" at every game.
Most people stand. But not all. And I've never, in dozens of games attended over the years, seen anyone attempt to compel or force someone into participating. No confrontations. No threats. No anything. Maybe a sideways glance, but not one that the person not participating might even notice.
There are places in this world where people really are compelled to "honor" their leaders or military. There was a time in this country where certain declarations of loyalty were compelled by law. Not anymore.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)recognize the troops? Is it a fine? Imprisonment? Reduced rations?
It sounds pretty serious.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)What exactly happens to you?
Oh.. did you mean to say... nothing?
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)sarisataka
(18,779 posts)and compulsory patriotism "
It is law now?
I volunteered to protect your freedoms, even with my life if needed. This discussion proves you have them wether or not I had to actually fight for them.
You're welcome.
No,you don't have to call me a hero. I just did my job as did my brothers and sisters serving alongside me.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I judge people on an individual basis. All people, doctors, lawyers, the homeless, rich or poor solider or saint. You treat me like shit, or treat me fairly I will return the favor either way. I hope you could understand my position.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)I don't give a vet an automatic pass since I have known many shitbirds.
Yet you can read this thread and see many assume all military are bad folks.
Even what is in the OP, and I do not know which are your words and which are from others, shows a negative prejudice towards military members. It assumes most are in someway complicit it the actions of the worst.
Also it gives the impression the military seeks the "hero" label. My experience is most vets are embarrassed by recognition and will deflect praise onto their comrades, especially those who did not return home.
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)the Brass, the Politican's that send them to war, the MIC that profits off the war.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)of your brothers picked on a widow and then her crippled son. Destroying their property piling snow in front of their driveway and spreading rumors about them around the neighborhood? Throwing sticks over a fence hitting your seven year old son and then when confronted has the nerve say to you prove it??? I live next door to him. Should I respect him or should I stand up against him??? How would you feel if this was done to your mother and then to you??? I judge people by their actions not their profession or their apparel. Do you want to hear about the NYC cop on the other side of me???
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)Just as I did not judge all African-Americans by my former drug dealing neighbor.
I also would not judge all NYC cops by the actions of one person. I have a poor view of them overall but should I meet one I will assume I have encountered a good cop until actions proove otherwise.
As for your vet neighbor, I would have no problem telling him to quit being a skidmark on the face of the earth.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I respect that you would confront someone acting the way I and my mother was treated after my father died. I did not want to confront him, I know he could kill me with great ease but I also must have some sort of self respect and stick up for myself and my family. I rather die than know I stood by while these things were going on. Believe me it was/is not easy. I did not post this article to disrespect the vets, but we must be allowed to question things that go on in this country.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)Is one reason I chose to wear the uniform; I fully agree.
On behalf of those who failed to properly instruct that pathetic excuse of a human being the meaning of the word honor you have my apologies. No one should have to suffer such abuse from a person whether they are a veteran or not
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)that I do not lie or exaggerate. It is not easy to be beaten down while being on the ground. This is my life and the only reason I'm not sleeping in streets is because of the love of my high school sweetheart who became my wife. I have decided to tell my story here on DU so perhaps people will take pause before labeling people such as myself. Also maybe I'm jealous of those who get respect by wearing a uniform while I struggle to just be accepted for who and what I am. I'm a good person deep down inside, but I'm also bitter because of my bad luck and how I've been treated by those who are considered superior to me. Sometimes I come across as an asshole, I try to correct my mistakes since I do not want to become what I despise. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, you could of easily just have blown me off.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)This exchange between sarisataka and you are why I love DU.
Both of you are worthy of respect.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)I don't doubt that you had the best intentions when you enlisted. Do you think your actions "protect your freedoms"? I don't.
Every dollar spent on war is a dollar that isn't spent helping people. We have passed on trillions of dollars in beneficial spending to pay for your wars and your salary. You're welcome.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)the potential was there. I did participate in several humanitarian missions both internationally and in the U.S. Those don't get as much news coverage as the operations with things that go boom.
As ordered by you through your elected representatives. We serve our civilian masters. You're welcome.
I never asked for a war nor started one. I was paid a salary for my work; the Thirteenth Amendment pretty much requires such an arrangement. Seeing as I was expected to be available 24/7, it works out to $2-$5 per hour as enlisted, though I admit the benefits were pretty good.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)It's axiomatic.
JEB
(4,748 posts)for people that say they will strengthen veteran's benefits once they are out of service. I show my respect for veterans by not voting for war hawks. I resist the corporate propaganda. I support veterans by opposing wars of aggression and wars of choice. Veterans do not benefit a rat's ass if I parrot "thank you for your service", have magnetic ribbons, or fart in the wind.
Throd
(7,208 posts)Why don't those dumb fuckers vote for us?
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)to boot. Imagine that!
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Good lord...
Sadly, there might even be a point in there somewhere but good luck if you can find it through all the teenage style angst and holier than thou hogwash...
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I just assume people call them heroes out of politeness. No one wants to be "that guy" who points out that not all 1.3 million servicepeople can be heroes.
ileus
(15,396 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,819 posts)... an OP like this pops up, and my assumption that the bottom of the barrel has already been scraped is proven wrong.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)consider anti-war protesters, Code Pink, et al, heroes as well. And they do it without a paycheck, or benefits. (of course, with a hell of a lot less risk!)
Well, then there's Chelsea Manning. An outstanding hero worthy of a Medal of Honor, IMHO.
paulkienitz
(1,296 posts)The last time that U.S. soldiers actually fought to prevent Americans losing their freedom to a foreign invader was in 1812. The last time they fought against a real threat to American freedom from any source was 1865. No war since then, however urgent the need to go into battle may have been for other reasons, involved any credible threat of an enemy depriving Americans of their freedom. So I'm pretty tired of being told that I owe my freedom to the military.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)endures more hardship, fatigue, missed meals, sleep deprivation, blistering heat, freezing temperatures, training injuries and potential violent death than a bloviating author for an on-line "magazine."
Fact is: In many countries writing such things is criminal. Here, in the good ol' evil US it's protected.
If people don't like the wars they should elect better politicians.
swilton
(5,069 posts)to wear my 'white' Veterans for Peace t-shirt over my 'red' turtleneck with 'blue'-jeans tomorrow. With mixed feelings because of sentiment contained in this post, I decided to participate in a church choir at a service honoring vets. I'm big on the music so I decided to make the sacrifice. But wearing the VfP t-shirt and reading this article will make it that much easier. Furthermore, I just submitted a lte on 'flag-waving' and how it does nothing to honor vets and the need to distinguish US foreign policy from supporting veterans (giving them health care./jobs when they return).
Thanks for listening.
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)while the military, the contractors (mercenaries), and arms makers (merchants of death)
all get paid - many of them HUGELY.
If they were actual heroes, they would do it for nothing.
Not much chance of that, is there?
lark
(23,158 posts)I would not call the people that perpetrated My Lai heros. People serving in the Middle East aren't heros, they are doing nothing to protect us and are actually making our lives more dangerous. I also wouldn't consider them criminals or enemies, they aren't doing this (for the most part) because they want to kill brown skinned people, but because they were sent there. The kids who kicked in doors and killed everyone in the house for no reason, yes they are awful, but those would be terribe anyplace they had guns. They aren't bad because of the military, but bad folks who went into the military.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)I'm a disabled Vietnam vet. I am no hero. I was drafted and wanted no part of being killed, or killing or harming anyone else on the other side of the world for worthless, conjured up reasons. I don't even want your "thanks for your service" disclaimer.
I agree 100% with this piece. Many have done "heroic things", but we are not heroes. Many have done atrocious things. I saw water boarding first hand when we passed through villages and we were not heroes. That was before I even heard the term "water boarding". It was simply referred to as extracting information from suspected VC. Heroes?
And I actually fear the police today, with all the terrible recent videos I've seen; and I'm white. I can only imagine how terrifying it must be for minorities and people of color.
Absolute buy shit, how we idolize military and the police. I admire the good ones and curse the bad ones. No way to see the difference by looking at a person on the outside.
Good article.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Supremacy of the Military
Controlled Mass Media
Obsession with National Security
Corporate Power is Protected
Labor Power is Suppressed
Fraudulent Elections
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
Religion and Government are Intertwined
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Rampant Sexism
http://rense.com/general37/char.htm
JEB
(4,748 posts)on all those signs.
silverweb
(16,402 posts)[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]It's a short read, well worth your time, giving a veteran's perspective.
[font color="black" face="Arial"]
So why is there such excessive use of the term? An older veteran suggested to me that this is America's way of making up for its neglect of Vietnam War veterans. Perhaps it's trying to come to terms with its conflicted feelings about the most recent wars.
Full article at SF Gate: http://preview.tinyurl.com/kvlhfg2[font face="Verdana"]
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)To all of them, I say "Thank you for your service."
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
- ''Heroes'' is what the American War Machine uses for fuel......
K&R
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I do not like hero worship in the military. IMO it is a form of propaganda to get young folks to enlist. War is hell and should be a last resort which we all must pay a price for. Not just those who are willing to serve but all of us must make a sacrifice by using a draft. This also will expose problems inside the military by having those who are not so willing to go along with some practices which are morally wrong. There is a very good reason they decided to stop the draft after Vietnam.
Separation
(1,975 posts)The guys and girls in uniform dont say, "hey we are bored. lets go kill people.' The fucking politicians make wars and order the military to go. Last I checked we still have a democratic president in office.
phil89
(1,043 posts)and at the very least, they should know what they're a part of.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)tend to forget the civilians control the military and set the budget. Generals can ask but Congress can say no.
Much easier to blame the PBI than look at the source of the problem.
Happy Birthday
Rex
(65,616 posts)If you want to worship the military, more power to you. If you hate the military and want to protest outside bases, more power to you. I didn't join the army to 'protect everyones freedums', that's such a stupid saying imo. I joined for the money, training and travel.
Something else you need to know, soldiers and marines don't fight and die to 'protect your freedums' - they fight and die to protect their fellow brothers and sisters in arms. Anything after that is just icing on the cake.
Don't buy into the bullshit you hear, the reality is very different that what you see in the movies.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)is how many of the military come from poor background.
I knew many troops who, by discrimination or unlucky birth place, have little to no hope of good employment. Joining the military was their only available ladder to a better life.
Hell, I knew a few ex-gangbangers who felt they had a better chance of staying alive in a war than on the streets of San Diego.
Separation
(1,975 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I've heard similar things from the soldiers I know.
That's why I couldn't rec this thread b/c while I vehemently oppose militarism I think the OP piece wrongly aims that sentiment at men and women doing their jobs who don't have a say in policy beyond their votes like anyone else.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Too bad stupid and immoral politicians also use it to wage stupid and immoral wars.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)catch hell but I already have in a few threads I posted so here I go. What happened on 9/11??? Was the "Homeland" protected??? We invaded a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and killed a man who was backed by our leaders at one time. Same goes for Bin Laden, funny how those things go.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)I've had enough of military worship and veteran privilege.
Oktober
(1,488 posts) UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)get a discount. More corporations should give you discounts.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)sneer at them as we walk by for being homeless. So much privilege there. Obviously a nation that loves its veterans and supports the troops.
7962
(11,841 posts)Thats what we always hear; the military stalks minority communities and lures them in because they have no hope or education. Of course its bullshit, but it plays well with some.
Then equating out of control cops with the military furthers the nonsense. Usually the whack job cops couldnt MAKE it in the military.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)the timing of this post. I post articles when I come across them. We are all humans not gods to be worshiped.
JI7
(89,276 posts)they certainly aren't treated with the worship that CEOS, Reality TV Whores, Celebs, Sports figures etc are.
people give lip service in order to help themselves as politicians do with their "thank the troops"
but they are treated worse than most and make up a large part of those who struggle the most in this country.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)treats them like shit not the people.
JI7
(89,276 posts)be real. Being pissed at me for posting an article the day it is released is just BS.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)That's why they support torture and mass murder of all those who they consider to be "the enemy".
They get all excited at the sight of a tank with an American Flag flapping in the breeze as it tear-asses over the desert on it's way to kill "Arabs".
Don't "understand". Just kill em ALL and that'll make it all go away.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Rye Bread Pizza
(37 posts)(Paraphrased) If it gets to the point where you have to defend your home, your family, and your way of life by wielding a weapon on your front porch. It is already too late.
This is why our military exists and has the ability to project power.
(Thank You Vets!)
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)more for them and get them the help they need. Many of the homeless are Vets but many people just give them lip service, thank them and then move on.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)this article has been posted on Alternet today with a revamped title.
bhikkhu
(10,724 posts)...unless that "we" includes you, I don't think you have a very good idea about what motives people in the military have. I didn't serve myself, but both of my parents did, and my sister, and seven aunts and uncles. They're heroes to me, and I have nothing but respect for their motives and their character in service.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Conscripted in WW2 and it ruined his life and ours, I wish he did not have to fight he may still be here today.
IdiocracyTheNewNorm
(97 posts)It is not heroic to destroy a village because someone suspects the enemy is there recruiting or storing weapons and supplies.
There is nothing heroic about kicking in the doors of peoples homes, terrorizing them
What did we do that was heroic in Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan?
I have seen individuals perform amazing acts of courage under fire to save or help those in their unit but hero's no not at all just folks fighting to stay alive in a shitty place under shitty conditions.
How about those heroic zippo parties too I bet quite a few here have been to them
Those who think they WANT to be a hero usually end up dead.
We are very lucky here in the USA we really don't have to worry about another countries hero's coming here and liberating us at the point of a gun either.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Either extreme is an expression of moral weakness and flawed character.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)demean the homeless, the disabled and people who do not think exactly the way they want them to, is that ok in your eyes?
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Your post implies that it is okay for you to demean people as long as others are demeaning "the homeless, the disabled and people who do not think exactly the way they want them to".
I fail to understand how this justifies such a flawed OP.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)It is what it is.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)My personal experience with those in the military is my alcoholic father and my neighbor who is from a long line of Marines. First my father, he was conscripted during WW2 was in a displaced person camp and was a guard at the Nuremberg Trials. He used to get drunk and get violent with us all. I did not understand at the time but now I feel his time during the war ruined his and our lives. He was a good man and helped all of our neighbors for free since was a master union carpenter. He was repaid by some of them saying he was commie and such. His drinking was his demise.
As for my neighbor, he move in next door in the 7Os and began a property line dispute which my father had to get a survey and prove where the line was. Ever since then there was always friction between them. When my father died I started taking care of the property and started to notice them dumping their mop water through the and over the fence. One time I was near my garage and all of the sudden I am soaking wet became he tossed some kind of liquid over the fence and on to my back.
My mother did not want to confront him so I did not. When my mother passed away I decided to stand my ground and if I saw any wrong doing I would speak up. Of course he just continued on doing whatever he wanted to. Waking up my sleeping children at 4:30 am with an hour of barking dogs. Destroying my bushes that I planted to stop him from ruining my gravel driveway by crossing over the metal barriers which kept the stones in place.
Loading their car for their weekend trips at 2:00am slamming the doors each time they placed one item in the car at a time. This is right outside our bedroom window. This is just a taste of what we have been through, there are many more things I could write.
I tried many times to let bygones be bygones only to be slapped in the face again and again.
I understand this is not the norm and I even thought I should of joined the service at one time since I believe I would be a good soldier since I do not have much fear and I'm loyal to a fault. I just wanted people to know how I have formed my opinion about war.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Doesn't change the fact that your OP is an expression of moral weakness and flawed character.
Your neighbor grievance is a pitiful excuse.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)I can disagree with a person's viewpoint but empathize with the experiences that have brought them to that point.
It's called humanity; try it sometime.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Humanity (in the sense of human interaction) is the act of being kind and has nothing to do with empathy. Empathy means to have the same feelings as another person. I suspect you actually meant "understand" and "sympathy".
Regardless. It would be a disservice to the OP to pretend that his or her past experience justifies their current moral weakness and flawed character as expressed in their opinion.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)and stand by them.
I am not so arrogant to see someone who disagrees with me as "moral weakness and flawed character"
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Depending on whatever you meant by your words, you are being arrogant as to call me inhumane because you disagree with me.
FYI - Hypocrisy, is also a character flaw.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)You demean me for having an different opinion than yours and mock my life experiences. I never written anything to demean the Vets here. My beef is about the system and the propaganda not the troops themselves. I get to see the worse in people since I'm an easy target and easily dismissed. Be it lawyers, doctors and even my own family.
There are bad apples in all walks of life and I happened to know many personally which changed my perspective about war and many other things. That does not mean I hate all Vets or all people and I lack moral fiber. You seem to stick up for a bully by saying I want a pity party. I will continue to speak up about things that has happened in my life like or not. I used to worry about folks like yourself and kept my feelings to myself, now I don't give a shit. Get off your high horse and join the human race, thank you very much.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Your childhood feud with a neighbor and the fact that people "demean the homeless, the disabled and people who do not think exactly the way they want them to" fails to provide you with license to demean veterans. Your story of the neighbor does, however, reveal the fallacy that "your beef is about the system and the propaganda not the troops themselves." Your demeaning of a soldier's sacrifice is a painful obvious personal grievance.
The true revelation of good character is rising above the tragedy of your life. The test of moral strength is its consistent application in all areas of your existence. This is the reason it is funny when Nigel Powers says, "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."
Anyone would recognize that your past experience has tied you up in knots, but do you?
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)for over 20 years between me and him not a childhood thing as you say. It takes a toll on person. What I did not mention in my post that I reached out to him once again the other day and we shook hands but we will see if there will be peace. I 've done this many, many times over the years to only be stabbed in the back once again. He has never reached out to me, it takes two to tango as they say. You have no idea what is in my mind and because I posted an article does not mean I agree with it all. You may think what you want of me, I know who I am and what I stand for.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Earlier you said the property dispute began in the '70s.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I was ten years old at that time. Should I scan the freaking survey for you?????????????????????? You are some piece of work buh bye.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The validity of the survey actually never crossed my mind. Though for future reference, becoming angry when someone questions you is often a sign of lying.
Your tale is fascinating, however. I'd love to hear the details of how, under the sensitive eyes of a 10-year-old son, an alcoholic WWII veteran/Nuremberg trial guard/displaced person's camp worker/unpaid carpenter to "all of our neighbors"/card carrying union member/but not a hero managed to have a feud with one neighbor who happened to be a Marine in the '70s (Vietnam veteran?), whose son later defended the old homestead from said aging neighbor over the next 40 years, becoming a parent himself, never filing a lawsuit against the neighbor (now a senior citizen) for property damage, until finally deciding to release the pent up frustration that extended across three generations by publishing a post that demeans all members of the military and then justifying it with the excuse that it is okay because "...people demean the homeless, the disabled and people who do not think exactly the way they want them to."
I'm sorry to say I am having real trouble believing this. If the story held up under scrutiny, that would be an interesting discussion.
But goodbye nonetheless.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Imagination but you may believe what you like.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I did one better
http://imgur.com/mXoRPnI
As I said I'm not a liar nor a fraud.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Okay.
So how old is this neighbor, and why haven't you pressed charges?
I'll assume the rest of the story is true.
Why would you allow the conflict with your neighbor motivate you to demean the service and sacrifice of all soldiers, especially given the service and sacrifice your father provided in WWII?
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)been for two days now. You keep on kicking this thread because you enjoy conflict. I will not reply to you any longer.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I remember chatting with you once before and that's why I replied to you in this thread. I had a feeling you might be able to understand. I respect you very much. You are a fine example of a Marine, the type of soldier I envisioned before my run in with my neighbor.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)As I stated above, I disagree with your viewpoint but given your background I can understand it. I would also likely have a dim view vets. It is simply experience, not a flaw or shortcoming.
Yet despite that you seem open to the possibility not everyone is of the same mold. The only way to prove that is to show most of us are good people.
From one of my personal heroes who I had the privilege of meeting twice and witnessing his bravery and integrity
“Never separate the life you live from the words you speak.”
-Paul wellstone
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Though certain things could make one a hero such as diving on a grenade to absorb the blast to save others.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)... from the Cuban Missile Crisis to the Southeast Asia War Games.
Never once...not for one second... defended America, or freedom, or whatever bullshit this country said.
Guarded the Empire, maybe.
dawg
(10,624 posts)It doesn't look like a very easy career choice to me. I think these men and women make great sacrifices, and at least part of that is due to their love of country and willingness to protect those of us who remain stateside.
Are they misused by the powers that be? Yes.
Are there plenty of bad apples within their ranks? I don't know, but there are surely some.
But just like nurses, firefighters, teachers, and (some of the) police, our soldiers perform an essential task. And for the most part, they perform that task with grace and humility.
No, all of them aren't "heroes". But they do deserve our appreciation.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)It's a different thing to talk to a parent of one of these soldiers in this way. Generally I absolutely agree with this false hero rubbish. It's brainwashing for military recruitment that starts for boys at a very early age.
But how do you tell a parent that their child died for nothing, or worse.