Hilary Supporters: Convince Me (EDIT for clarity: This is in reference to Primaries)

[Bettie]

Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2014, 11:45 AM - Edit history (1)

EDIT: I am talking about PRIMARIES, not the general election. I go under the assumption that as Democrats, we will all vote and work for the eventual nominee.

Tell me why she is the very BEST the party has to offer. Pretend I've never heard of her.

Make your case as to why she's the candidate we need to win in 2016.

What would she do (or try to do) for those of us who are not already wealthy? How would she work for the people, not the corporate persons?

This is the caveat though:

"She can raise a billion dollars" doesn't convince me at all. It simply means that she's one of the favored of the 1%.

"Wall Street loves her" isn't an argument that works for me either, since they are a large part of the reason our economy crashed! It also, again, makes the argument that she's the candidate of the 1%.

I'm actually wondering if there are other arguments out there beyond these two. I've seen them over and over and no one really comes up with anything else except that it's her "turn".

[SidDithers]

1. Convince yourself. Or don't...

It's your vote. Do your own homework.

Sid

[Bettie]

10. What I'm trying to get at is that her supporters

generally take any criticism of her as a demand that they not support her.

I don't generally see any argument for her beyond a link, a dismissive comment, and "she can raise a lot of money".

I've not seen anyone make a passionate argument as to why she is the best the party has to offer.

I was hoping to see that.

I guess there isn't an argument to be made beyond that.

If she's the nominee, I'll vote for her, I'll work for her election, but I dislike being told that it is a done deal because of money.

[leftofcool]

2. Naw, I'll pass. What's the point.

You obviously didn't get the new DU memo. No Hillary supporters allowed.

[Bettie]

25. You see, this is the problem

I've never seen a post from anyone about why they are excited about voting for her, why they truly think that she will be a great president, why they believe that she's the best woman for the job.

I'm in Iowa. When we had caucuses, I had conversations with the Hilary people there as well as those for other candidates. In every case, I heard arguments FOR their candidate. What I got from the Clinton people was that she was inevitable, that it was 'her turn'.

That left an impression on me. I didn't hear an argument FOR her as I did the other candidates on the night when most were passionately advocating for their own candidates.

Personally, I'd put her experience as Sec'y of State as a reason for her. I think she was good at that and showed a great deal of skill.

And, again, if she is the nominee, I'll vote for her. I'll work for her.

Wanting to see more viewpoints doesn't mean that her supporters aren't allowed.

[JaneyVee]

3. Voting record:

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/hillary_clinton.htm

Good place to start for making informed decisions.

[NYC_SKP]

6. "1980s: Loved Wal-Mart's "Buy America" program."

These seem anecdotal, not particularly meaningful. Feel-good rhetoric.
OTOH, not all of the lines on your link are positive.
Interesting.

Take back $55B in Bush’s industry give-aways. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Pushed Wal-Mart for women managers & environment. (Jan 2008)
World Bank should impose rules on sovereign wealth funds. (Jan 2008)
Bush defanged the Consumer Product Safety Commission. (Dec 2007)
FactCheck: Yes, Bush shrunk CPSC; but it shrank before Bush. (Dec 2007)
Outraged at CEO compensation. (Oct 2007)
Stop bankruptcies to get rid of pension responsibilities. (Aug 2007)
Enough with corporate welfare; enough with golden parachutes. (Jun 2007)
Close lobbyists’ revolving door; end no-bid contracts. (Jun 2007)
1976 Rose Law: Fought for industry against electric rate cut. (Jun 2007)
Corporate lawyer at Rose Law while Bill was Attorney General. (Jun 2007)
Corporate elite treat working-class America as invisible. (Apr 2007)
Companies get rewarded with hard-working people left hanging. (Mar 2007)
1980s: Loved Wal-Mart's "Buy America" program. (Jun 2004)
1970s: Potential conflict of interest when GM sued Arkansas. (Nov 1997)
1970s: Potential conflict of interest when GM sued AR. (Nov 1997)
Businesses play social role in US; gov’t oversight required. (Sep 1996)
Family-friendly work policies are good for business. (Sep 1996)
Serving on boards provides ties but requires defending too. (Aug 1993)
Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on restricting rules on personal bankruptcy. (Jul 2001)
Rated 35% by the US COC, indicating a mixed business voting record. (Dec 2003)

[NYC_SKP]

4. We must vote for Hillary to avoid a Republican from winning.

That's all I ever hear, that and the "on the issues" link, which isn't that impressive, frankly.

Votes with Democrats most of the time. Big Whoop.

Where is she on preserving and growing Social Security?

Where is she on restoring higher level taxes on corporations and the 1%?

Where is she on protecting American jobs from unfair foreign competition?

[belzabubba333]

5. where do you think hill's republicans opponent is on those issues

[NYC_SKP]

8. Theirs probably matches hers.

Doesn't matter, they aren't going to be running in the primary.

I have my eye on true FDR Democrats and Progressives.

[belzabubba333]

18. that would be great can we get one in the w.h?

[NYC_SKP]

22. If Warren gets the ticket, all that Hillary support goes to her in the General Election

And Warren's message resonates with people of both parties, all ages, working and middle class.

[brooklynite]

23. ...but Warren is supporting Hillary.

No problem with a progressive alternative, but be realistic about your options.

[LawDeeDah]

33. She is supporting Hillary because there is no alternative to that.

Do you truly expect her to publicly announce she does not support Clinton?


That is not how this game is played.

[brooklynite]

40. Oh, so Warren is another political weakling? Too scared to stand up to the Party leadership?

Or maybe she's just a dissembling politician who'll say whatever's convenient?

Funny, I got the impression she was better than that.

[LawDeeDah]

46. It has got nothing to do with that. That is naive.

It's just common sense you do not throw stones at someone in your own party this early in the game (and hemming and hawing about whether she supports Clinton would be stone throwing, you know it, everyone knows it) and no one announces this early either.

Trying to twist it into pretzel logic of 'Warren is a liar then!' just brings up the comparison of Hillary lies then. I don't think you want to do a comparative list of proven, solid lies, now do you?

[brooklynite]

47. I'm not saying she's a liar; I'm taking her at her word...

Either she thinks Clinton would be a good President or not; if not, she has not reason to sign a letter saying that she does. She signed a letter with the other Senate women so I assume she believes Clinton should run.

You are entitled to think differently; just remember that we're dealing with real world politics. Come early next year, if Hillary announces she's running (which I expect her to do) and Warren doesn't (which she's been emphatic about), don't complain that somehow "they" stopped Warren from doing something she was clear she didn't want to do.

[LawDeeDah]

48. Where is this secret letter? I have not seen anything like it

if it does exist, it's in some Clinton surrogate's leaky press imagination.

[brooklynite]

50. Elizabeth Warren: I hope Hillary Clinton runs for president

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she hopes Hillary Rodham Clinton runs for president in 2016 — the latest in a series of declarations of support by the Massachusetts Democrat, who some have speculated could seek the Oval Office herself.

"All all of the women — Democratic women I should say — of the Senate urged Hillary Clinton to run, and I hope she does. Hillary is terrific," Warren said during an interview broadcast Sunday on ABC's "This Week," noting that she was one of several senators to sign a letter urging Clinton to run in 2016.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/27/elizabeth-warren-i-hope-hillary-clinton-runs-for-president/

http://abc.go.com/shows/this-week-with-george-stephanopoulos/listing/2014-04/26-this-week-427-nba-team-owners-alleged-racial-comments-reignites-race-debate

[LawDeeDah]

53. Why is that letter secret? That's just silly.

Anyway, this whole thing is silly about who said what when and means what, all we have to do is wait and the future will reveal to us the truth.

I hope the truth will include President Elizabeth Warren but I am not going to go bonkers if it doesn't turn out that way, (like the crazy loon in the video attached that did just that), your hopeful truth differs. That's really all there is to it.

[Bettie]

7. This is my point

None of her supporters are willing to discuss anything other than that link and her ability to raise lots of money.

People who support Warren and Sanders, for example, are quite willing to discuss their reasons.

For me, it isn't not accepting her supporters, it is wanting to know why, personally, they want to see her as the only primary candidate.

And, I will vote for her if she is the nominee, but I have serious reservations about her.

[NYC_SKP]

11. I agree. Name recognition and the ability to draw financing.

IMO, her positions are middle of the road for a Democrat. It's not hard to vigorously support gay marriage, abortion rights, immigration reform. Woo Hoo.

Where is she REALLY on the things that really push the wealth of this country back to the people who create it?

Crickets.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Does anyone here want to see her as the only primary candidate?

There are several democrats that I want to see in the primary. That list includes Clinton.

[LawDeeDah]

34. You will not find any serious posting about Why Hillary deserves a nomination.

Because there are almost no reasons for it and that embarrasses the club so they ricochet back with some meaningless insults or questioning your motives and loyality to democrats.

I give you a few more posts and expect that you will be called a sexist for daring ask these things.

These are the two things I have seen posted in response to 'what has hillary done'

1. She got a lot of airmiles racked up
2. She is funny with those Text Message things (People think it is actually her making those graphics and doing the writing)

Presidential material for sure!

[Metric System]

39. Are you seriously suggesting Hillary is not qualified to be President? It seems to me whenever her

detractors are presented with information re: qualifications, policies, etc., they stick their fingers in their ears and close their eyes, or they accuse her supporters of pushing her down their throats.

[LawDeeDah]

45. Someone who made the 3am phone call ad

during the primaires, to call Obama inexperienced and not on the ball.

Well, her husband defended her for her Bosnia Sniper story by saying she is old and is tired, you know how old folk are. That is pretty well what he said. So she obviously is not ready for that 3am phone call herself.

Plus, anyone who would make up a story like that has got something really wrong going on and I would not trust her to tell the truth about anything. Ever.

[wyldwolf]

43. You just haven't been paying attention (or haven't been around long enough)

Your question gets answered damn near every time it's asked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024052514

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3480059

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5113840

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6208225&mesg_id=6208776

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=761

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4662449&mesg_id=4662514

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3614351&mesg_id=3614442

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=131216&mesg_id=131223

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6056975&mesg_id=6057035

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5133866&mesg_id=5133973

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. If you're asking those questions, you haven't read the "on the issues" link.

Particularly regarding Social Security.

[NYC_SKP]

19. Citizens United? ‘I would consider’ anti-Citizens United amendment." WTF?

And people are worried about supreme court appointees?


On Citizens United:

Hillary Clinton: ‘I would consider’ anti-Citizens United amendment

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hillary-clinton-citizens-united-constitutional-amendment

In other words, don't expect any action on my part to change this.

[riderinthestorm]

9. Elizabeth Warren is the best our party has to offer but if Hillary's the nominee, I'll vote

Because the Supreme Court has now become so politicized, its imperative the next appointments are Democratic.

So the reason to vote for Hillary in my view: the Supreme Court

[Bettie]

12. I'd agree with that

If she is the nominee, I will vote for her. I will work for her on the local level.

[NYC_SKP]

16. That might make sense in the general elections, what about the primaries?

And, I'm not sure her choices for Supreme would be any more progressive than her choices in free trade agreements.

On Citizens United:

Hillary Clinton: ‘I would consider’ anti-Citizens United amendment

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hillary-clinton-citizens-united-constitutional-amendment

In other words, don't expect any action on my part to change this.

[riderinthestorm]

24. Since the OP didn't delineate whether s/he was talking general or primaries, I winged it

If the OP is about the primaries than that's a very different calculus.

I've no doubt Hillary's corporatist stance would play into whoever would be chosen for SCOTUS but she's fierce on women's reproductive rights and frankly, that's a big deal to me now as I watch our reproductive rights erode.

[Bettie]

35. I did clarify that I'm talking about the primaries

In the general election, I'd assume that almost anyone here is a Dem and would vote for the candidate of the party.

[riderinthestorm]

37. You edited after I made my post. No biggie

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. There is a huge gulf between "she's the best the party has to offer" and...

... "I'll vote Green or Socialist or stay home" (all effectively the same thing) if she's the nominee.

If she's the nominee, she'll be an okay president. I can think of a great many potential nominees that I'd prefer, (e.g. Brian Schweitzer) but she's the only one whom we know will run.

[Bettie]

15. I would never stay home or vote third party

But, I'd like to see a better argument FOR her.

[hrmjustin]

20. Hillary needs to convince you, not me.

I have no desire convert anyone and I appreciate it if others didn't try to personally convert me to their candidate.

[DawgHouse]

21. Seriously?

If "it's her turn" is the only argument you've seen, you're not making a serious effort to study any of the potential nominees. If you don't like her, that's fine. It would be better to just come out and state YOUR reasons, instead of being passive aggressive out it.

[Bettie]

26. The most common arguments I've seen are

"She can raise a billion dollars" and "Wall Street loves her" and variations on those themes.

I simply want to see if anyone has an argument beyond posting a link and making a snarky comment about someone daring to ask why they support her. I guess it is supposed to be obvious, but it isn't.

[justiceischeap]

27. One of the things I suspect Hillary would be good at

and a reason to vote for her in the primaries is that she would not allow Republicans to walk all over her--compromise is great and encouraged but when one side isn't willing to do so, you gotta take a stand and do what's best for the people. I think that's one of Obama's great failings in his Presidency. He was/is much too focused on compromising with people that were/are never going to compromise with him.

On the other hand, Hillary loathes the Republican party and holds a grudge over the way they treated President Clinton and herself as First Lady. I like the idea that she would have much more of a backbone when dealing with them. That's the only thing I can think of at the moment that doesn't mention anything that has to do with her voting record or the Supreme Court or raising money.

One thing that really worries me about Hillary, beyond the obvious, is people will have Hillary fatigue by the time the primaries roll around. That said, the fact that so many people are sure she will be the presumptive nominee is a great piece of propaganda (and I don't know who is behind it). It's planting the seed that people are just going to have to face the fact that Hillary will be our next President so the people must make it so and some people will automatically vote for her should she run and should she win the primaries.

Another thing that worries me about Hillary is that she is very polarizing. People love her or hate and there often isn't much in between--and that's within our own party.

The thing that worries me about Democrats is that not all of us seem to realize that we have a huge swath of land in these United States that will never, ever vote for a liberal Democratic nominee but may vote for a more moderate one. Like it or not, this must be a consideration when nominating our next President. Sadly, our Presidential elections are very much a popularity contest with higher stakes and the nominee must be popular amongst all the people, not just some of the people or they'll never get the majority of the electorate to vote for them.

[Bettie]

28. THANK YOU!

Actually, I agree with most of what you've said here.

There are good points to her and negatives, just as there are with all candidates. There is no perfect candidate, but you've put forth a very good argument FOR her in that she will not fold easily.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. The best? No, not on an issues basis...

A case can be made she's the one most likely to win in November. If in fact one ends up concluding that a different nominee is significantly more likely to lose to a Republican in the General Election than one can certainly argue that Hillary is the best Democrat to nominate.

Aside from that, taking Warren at her word that she won't run, I believe Clinton is the strongest woman candidate we can field in 2016, and I see a significant intrinsic good in electing a female to the highest office in the nation in regards to shattering glass ceilings, Clinton has been a strong voice for women worldwide. On an international level it would be a lightning bolt for women world wide if Hillary became the acknowledged most powerful leader in the world.

After that the arguments become more subtle at best. Hillary may be more acceptable to more voters in red leaning purple states than some other Democrats, which could give her greater "coat tails" to help pull in more Democrats into office down ticket into state legislatures etc. Some of those Democrats no likely would be more progressive than Hillary herself, and we need to develop new Democratic leaders in a wide swath of states, winning local elections furthers that.

A case can also be made that she is one of the brightest people seeking the presidency if raw ability is factored into the equation. It's not enough to just back the best positions, one also needs the skill and insight needed to outmaneuver opponents to actually deliver on what you support.

[Bettie]

30. Thank you for an actual answer

You make some really good arguments and I can agree with them.

Not sure that she'd be better in more conservative states as she is hated by many, but Bill is still hugely popular all over and, strangely, less polarizing. He would be an asset to her as well.

And yes, as you say, she is incredibly intelligent.

[Tom Rinaldo]

31. I think the "polarizing" argument against Hillary is ultimately a red herring

At one point Bill Clinton was very "polarizing" also, that contributed to the Republican sweep in 2004. Fortunately for Democrats (and America) the Republicans promptly overplayed their hand and shut down government and impeached Clinton which led to a backlash against them and an opening for Bill.

Republicans perfected the art of polarization a long time ago, and they use it against any Democrat who comes to prominence. During the 2008 primaries Hillary evolved into a very effective "gritty" campaigner, tough talk cut with humor. She was very popular in places like rural Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. First time she ran for Senate in New York she shocked people with how effectively she campaigned in Republican leaning mostly rural upstate New York.

Hillary has already been through the full force Republican polarization machine on multiple occasions. Yes she has many haters now, but she's also won the respect of millions for how well she has stood up to it, including many people who are not overly liberal to begin with. When it comes to factoring in the downside of polarization you are comparing apples to oranges with Hillary vs other potential Democratic candidates. Republicans have already hit her with their best shots. Most Democrats haven't faced that on a national level yet. Kerry never saw the swiftboat attacks on him coming for example until they had already tore into him.

[Bettie]

32. It may well be a red herring

My main frame of reference for this is my many conservative relatives and in-laws who hate her, virulently.

And, you are right....we do know what to expect in terms of attacks, which will make it easier to counter them.

And again, thank you for having an actual discussion on this. I appreciate it and the opportunity to see things from a different angle.

[justiceischeap]

36. I'm less concerned about polarization with Repubs

than with Dems. It isn't a red herring at all, you just need to look at DU to see it. There are many reasons people outside of DU either love or hate Hillary. I can think of these few: she stood by her philandering husband instead of kicking his ass to the curb. She's got genitalia that doesn't include a penis. Some see her as smug. Some think she's too old. Some think she's a one-time loser and people will remember that (I remember that). She's not liberal enough or she's too liberal depending on who you ask.

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. I've been through a couple of rounds of presidential primary wars at DU

In some ways the wars here during 2004 are more illuminating than what happened here during 2008 even. We are just as good at demonizing opponents among us as Republicans are at attacking Democrats. The battles we had here between Dean, Clark, Edwards, Kerry, and Kucinich supporters were legendary and often viscous in how Democrats got characterized and attacked.

Then the primaries ended and almost all of us turned our attention to the November election and for any of a long host of reasons swung in behind first Kerry and then Obama in the finals.

There will be many reasons why people outside DU will either hate or respect any Democrat who gets nominated. Ultimately more votes will be cast in support of whoever we nominate by those who fear the Republican alternative than by those who love whoever the Democrat is. As for genitalia, I think Hillary is well positioned with what she has plus a reputation for toughness. The former would help her energize women, the latter will mitigate fear by some of turning America over to the Mommy party.

[Seeking Serenity]

41. Chance to be the first "Madam President" in American history

Really, that's all I've got.

On edit: And in the end, that may be enough.

[CK_John]

42. Your just looking for a pony to bet on, even before the race has started.

[wyldwolf]

44. there's no convincing you... but...

Your question gets answered damn near every time it's asked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024052514

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3480059

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5113840

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6208225&mesg_id=6208776

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=761

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4662449&mesg_id=4662514

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3614351&mesg_id=3614442

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=131216&mesg_id=131223

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6056975&mesg_id=6057035

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5133866&mesg_id=5133973

[gmb92]

49. Answers

Start with her voting record:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025797591

I don't think this convincingly answers the question that she is the best the Democrats can offer (not my first choice in 2008 and on the fence in 2016), but it's leaves no reason for progressives to not vote in a general election.

Clinton does get points for showing toughness against decades of Republican attacks, which many other candidates haven't proven. Ability to win against Republicans shouldn't be dismissed. Although Clinton might have relative problems with the youth vote, she could gain it back among older Americans relative to how Obama's done with that demographic.

[JI7]

51. i don't support Hillary but i never understand these type of questions from those who claim

to have interest in politics. since you are on a political forum i'm guessing you have some interest. so do some research. not everyone is going to like every candidate.

if you don't like her don't support her.

bernie sanders and joe biden are some of the few who have said they are considering a run and so far i would support both over hillary.

[Bettie]

55. I have actually seen some interesting points from the few who bothered to actually

answer.

I don't dislike her, but she is very tied into corporate interests and that is bothersome to me, as a person who isn't and will very likely never be in the highest income brackets.

I don't want the primary to be a coronation and I have observed a reticence to discuss much more than her ability to raise huge sums of money among her most ardent supporters. This is why I made the post.

I don't spend all day every day reading threads about her, but in those I've perused over the last year or so, it is the same thing over and over. Today, from a few posters, I got a different viewpoint.

[JI7]

56. what did you learn that you didn't know before ? and do you really look to Du threads as a way

to learn about candidates and politics ?

[onenote]

52. Tell me who her primary opposition is and then I can make up my mind

The concept of deciding who is the "Best" candidate is by its very nature a comparative process. I can tell you whether or why Clinton is a better or best candidate unless I know the other candidates I'm supposed to be comparing her to.

So rather than ask for a comparison without anyone to compare her to, why don't you suggest some of the other Democrats that might be competing with her in a primary.

[CK_John]

54. I doubt there will be any primaries.