Americans hate poor people.

[Yavin4]

It's really that simple. They flat out hate the poor. Sure, there's racism and xenophobia is co-mingled in their hate, but by and large, they really, really, really hate the poor.

They believe that people are poor because of poor choices or character flaws. That the American educational, economic and social system, though flawed, provides everyone with an equal opportunity to succeed. If you're not doing well, then you are a failure. You didn't study in school. You didn't go to college. If you did go to college, then you didn't take the right major. If you cannot find a job, then you don't have enough experience. If you have too much experience, then you have to re-train for something else. If that doesn't work, then you should move to North Dakota and work in the oil fields there.

The ironic thing is, the majority of Americans are poor when you look at their net worth which is negative. The ones that think that they are doing well are really up to their necks in debt with mortgages, car leases, credit cards, and student loans.

[Kingofalldems]

1. I have personal experience with that.

Some kids I knew were encouraged by their parents not to associate with me for the simple reason I was poor. I actually heard one parent use the t word----trash.

[Ron Green]

2. Our brand of capitalism is a brilliant system

that keeps people in the middle struggling to avoid the pockets of poverty they see around them, whether peopled by "undesirables" or the growing numbers of newly-poor. Consumer culture says, "You're not like them; you can keep being one of us."

[Tom Ripley]

58. ^^^THIS^^^

[Quantess]

71. Well said. (no text)

[99Forever]

3. A sad truth. n/t

[BlindTiresias]

4. Yep

And it will likely always be that way, as the right wing have permanent control as we see, and any leftist gains are temporary and ultimately destroyed.

[Rex]

5. And since so many are poor, they actually hate themselves? Maybe.

You realize when you say Americans, you mean all of us.

Yes there most certainly is a group that despises not only the poor, but the middle class and the upper class. Basically they despise anyone not at their 'social level' (and since they only make up .01% of the population it is a very small group) which means NONE of us or practically anyone else living in America, so their hatred casts across the entire nation.

I truly believe the Koch brothers fall into this group as well as the Bush family.

[FSogol]

6. They hate the poor because they are afraid of becoming poor. n/t

[Yavin4]

8. No, They're afraid of being correctly identified as poor.

If you owe more money than you have, you are poor. No matter how big your house, TV, and cars are.

[Lurker Deluxe]

18. Crazy

In that case the US is the poorest country in the world.

Owing more than you have, cash on hand, does not make one "poor".

You can owe money on a house but have untapped equity, and financing something in an intelligent way is simply a good use of credit which allows people to acquire things they would not be able to acquire any other way.

Depending on your situation there are certainly times on one's life where it is beneficial to be in debt.

[Yavin4]

44. OWING more that you OWN puts your net worth at 0 or in negative territory

You could have other assets in addition to cash, like stocks, bonds, antiques, etc.

[Lurker Deluxe]

50. That does not make you poor

That is the typical republican talking point, we have to cut spending because we are to far in debt. Debt that is taken on to improve one's self does not make you poor.

No more than borrowing money for infrastructure projects to put people to work, borrowing for education is a good investment. There is certainly bad debt, but to just flat out say that if you have negative net worth you are poor is foolish.

The majority of corporations hold negative equity, does that make them poor too?

The USofA certainly has a deficit, are we poor?

Again, foolish statement with no qualifiers.

[Yavin4]

51. Individuals, corporations, and govrerment are not the same.

It may be okay for them to have negative equity, but if an individual has negative equity, then they are indeed poor.

This is how so many Americans got wiped out in the 2008-2009 collapse. They confuse debt with equity which are not the same thing.

When you carry a lot of debt and interest rates rise, you will go under. You will have to declare bankruptcy.

[Lurker Deluxe]

57. Okay ...

Just crazy talk but ok.

So, a person goes to school for 6 years, comes out of school with 75K debt, gets a job pulling down 100K+, gets married to some girl who pulls down 75K, they buy a 250K house and start a family and a life. They are "poor".

Someone drops out of high school, works 20 hours a week, doesn't own a damn thing, rents a two bit apartment, and has $2.50 in his pocket .. a positive net worth. Guess he's better off than the former.

Drivel.

If you are carrying debt and the interest rate rises the only way that can affect you is you did not have your interest rate locked in, which is pretty much foolish on any long term investment when the rates have been bottomed out for the last decade.

Negative equity wiped people out in the crash because they bought into an obvious housing bubble and got caught holding the rock when it popped. Some who were not aware got caught in this as well, but the economy crashed because of the easy money and crazy housing price escalation, which was bundled and sold as long term investment.

[Yavin4]

59. Rebuttal

First, the two college grads acquired assets (college degrees) that generates $175,000 a year. So, the value of their assets ($175,000 a year for say 20 years or $3 million) - the value of their home ($250 K) puts their net worth at $2.75 million.

Second, if the dropout builds his assets over time without incurring more debt, then he will have a positive net worth.

[Lurker Deluxe]

62. Again

Without qualifiers your original statement is invalid.

"If you owe more money than you have, you are poor. No matter how big your house, TV, and cars are. "

The grads will be in negative equity for at least ten years, but they are a long way from "poor".

Debt/credit is a tool, and used correctly it allows people to acquire things they could not pay outright for. Because you use these things to build your life does not make you poor.

Now, if you were to say, "If you owe more money than you have when you are 60, you are poor", you would get no argument.

[Yavin4]

66. The couple in your example have a $250 K a year revenue stream. They have ASSETS to offset their

debts. That couple has a positive net worth because they have future cash flows which can be discounted to today.

If you using debt to acquire non-productive items like cars or TVs or shopping sprees, etc., then they are are NOT generating future cash flows. That's wealth extraction by the banks.

Most Americans have non-productive debts, and if they owe more than they own, they are insolvent.

[jwirr]

28. You are correct. Remember when Hillary (whom I am not supporting at this time) was talking about

being poor. She was talking about debt poor. They had just gotten out of the WH after months of paying lawyers to fight the impeachment. At that time she may have been debt poor.

[Ampersand Unicode]

31. So sayeth Master Yoda

[TDale313]

7. Yep. The ugly side of the American Dream.

We buy into this fairy tale that we actually have social mobility, that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. The flip side? If you can't overcome a rigged system, there must be something wrong with you. Add in the Calvinist undertones that wealthy people are wealthy cause
God favors them, and poor people are poor because they've sinned or it's just his plan, and making life better for the less fortunate becomes a failing in and of itself. It's truly sick.

[jwirr]

33. The religious aspect plays a large role in that hate. I have felt it first hand. I had an ace in the

whole though. My wonderful little disabled daughter had a way of winning hearts and minds. When they looked at my poverty and realized that I was doing what they were always preaching about they had to shut their mouths.

On the other hand they do not know just how much I disliked them when they would set right in front of me and talk about all the people they hated.

Today, I do not understand how they could still be so fooled. Compared to the wealthy all of us fit the definition of poor. How can they not see that they are describing themselves?

[leftofcool]

9. Americans?

That is a pretty broad sweep. I'm an American and I sure don't hate poor people.

[Stargazer99]

10. In general poor and low income people feel this-you are probably an exception

[Stargazer99]

11. if you ever become poor you will eventually understand

[Basic LA]

12. So True.

Great post. This basic truth is hard to see for those on the left. The right-wing does not see poverty & inequality, but only "laziness" & "free riders." This lack of empathy has congealed in the Republican Party.

[Yavin4]

13. That's why the income inequality argument falls on deaf ears

You can have all the charts and graphs you want. Most Americans think that the basic system is fair to everyone. So, if anyone cannot move above a minimum wage job, then they are just failures.

[Basic LA]

17. Deaf Ears.

So many of our arguments fall on deaf ears, once we see this simple fact (that you raised). The classic left/right divide was Capital vs Labor. And now I guess it's those who despise the poor, & the rest of us.

[pampango]

52. That's a large part of the reason. Also people don't really understand how unequal our income

distribution really is.

Krugman: New study shows Americans think income is much more equal here than in Europe. The opposite is true.

Inequality Delusions

Via the FT, a new study compares perceptions of inequality across advanced nations. The big takeaway here is that Americans are more likely than Europeans to believe that they live in a middle-class society, even though income is really much less equally distributed here than in Europe. I’ve truncated the table to show the comparison between the U.S. and France: the French think they live in a hierarchical pyramid when they are in reality mostly middle-class, Americans are the opposite.



As the paper says, other evidence also says that Americans vastly underestimate inequality in their own society – and when asked to choose an ideal wealth distribution, say that they like Sweden.

Why the difference? American exceptionalism when it comes to income distribution – our unique suspicion of and hostility to social insurance and anti-poverty programs – is, I and many others would argue, very much tied to our racial history. This does not, however, explain in any direct way why we should misperceive real inequality: people could oppose aid to Those People while understanding how rich the rich are. There may, however, be an indirect effect, because the racial divide empowers right-wing groups of all kinds, which in turn issue a lot of propaganda dismissing and minimizing inequality.

Interesting stuff.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/inequality-delusions/

It is interesting that Americans say they want a degree of income equality similar to what Sweden actually has, but we are not willing to adopt the taxation, labor and economic policies that Sweden has used to accomplish this.

[Basic LA]

54. They don't care.

Even when facts are as plainly & factually presented as in your excellent post, the right sees only the fable of the industrious ant & the lazy grasshopper looking for a handout. Even during The Great Depression they held to this belief. It's what defines The Right.

[jwirr]

34. When it is based on religious beliefs they go so far as to see the poor and "weak" as someone who

deserves to be punished.

[Ampersand Unicode]

36. And many white, rural poor hate nonwhite poor

...indeed, nonwhites in general. In fact, many whites in general (not all) just don't like nonwhites, period.

You can't really extricate race from class. The poorest white conservative in Armpit County, Alabama still sees himself as being higher up on the ladder than a person of any socioeconomic status who is not white. Not sure how much of this exists now, but there was even a time when poor Southern whites of "Anglo" background saw themselves as being ahead of "ethnic" white immigrants from Italy, Poland, Portugal, Ireland, etc. Jews (there is a question of whether it's a religion or a "race&quot are considered "white" by our census categories (which is so basic as to be a box of 8 Crayola colors), yet there are still some Christians who consider themselves more "white" than they are. And still Protestants who see themselves as above Catholics (and vice versa), Catholics who consider themselves above the Jews, all kinds of "whites" who see themselves above the "Muslims"...

Like the late Rodney King said, can't we all just get along?

[Orsino]

14. Because we fear the poor, and poverty, recognizing powerlessness when we see it.

The more financially tenuous our circumstances, the greater that fear and hate become. We eagerly join in the poor-punching, thinking it enhances our own security.

[Niko]

15. Worse. Americans think they're going to be rich

There's this psychosis in American culture than makes people think all they have to do is "work really hard" and one day, they too will become millionaires and billionaires. They're all for tax cuts for the rich, because one day those tax cuts will come their way.

Exhibit A:


Joe the Plumber

[jwirr]

35. By the way - wasn't the plumber running for office somewhere? Did he win?

[PoliticAverse]

45. He ran for Congress but lost...

See: http://www.news-herald.com/general-news/20121106/election-joe-the-plumber-loses-bid-for-congress-in-ohio

[jwirr]

53. Thank God for one favor. We do not have to put up with him.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Exactly.

It's why working class people will incur any level of debt to avoid that stigma.

I read an interesting post recently, something to the effect that layoffs harm those with middle-class incomes most because their lifestyles were dependent upon promises made on their anticipated future earnings, not current wealth.

A healthy and sustainable lifestyle is also a frugal one. If you have a new car and a negative net worth, you're doing it wrong.

I know that people laugh at me in my 25 year old car. I don't care.

[The2ndWheel]

19. Frugal doesn't make an economy

where people are supposed to spend money. We want people to spend money. We'll force ourselves to find ways to get people to spend money.

It's ok if a few people are frugal. More and more people stop buying cars though? Stop buying houses? Stop anything? We've seen what happens.

[BlueJazz]

42. Yep.I go into peoples houses (computer tech). I'll pull up in a very nice neighborhood, go inside ..

...a 2500 sq foot house, 2 cars, do my thing and (here's the sad part...I have proof) > There's a 14 percent chance that when they write me a check for 80-140 dollars, they'll ask me to "hold it for a week".

It wasn't like that 2-3 years ago but it's fairly common now.
I think to myself "If somebody in their household gets sick or their roof leaks..Etc, Etc...they're screwed.

Just Sad...

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. You can blame that on Calvinism

if you're rich, it's a sign of god's favour and a visible sign of your righteousness. If you're poor, it's because of your own inherent wicked sloth and laziness and moral corruption. That's an idea that's bred deep into the American psyche.

[GoCubsGo]

43. Yep. There's a whole strain of Chritianity based on those notions.

They preach the "Prosperity Gospel" to their hundreds of thousands of followers. Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Bishop Eddie Long, TD Jakes, Oral Roberts... And, in demonizing the poor as being lazy and evil, they also absolve themselves from doing anything to help them. Poor Jesus would be spinning in his grave if he knew how many of his purported followers bastardized his preachings.

[devils chaplain]

49. It's pre-destination...

People deserve their station in life. If you're poor you deserve to be poor, and if you're king you deserve to be king.

I do think they the Calvinists are right in one sense -- that it's all blind luck. The difference is I think in recognizing that we become fully human through working our damnedest to even things out, not by embracing the first cast of that "divine" die.

[daredtowork]

23. And thus most Americans hate themselves

instead of using their power to vote to change their circumstances.

[Rex]

24. Also let me say this is a dam good reason to support unions.

And when somebody says unions don't work or they hurt the worker, remind them without trade unions they wouldn't be driving around in cars.

[jtuck004]

26. And with Industrial Unions they would control the jobs that make them.

It's high time to bring The Union back.

[jwirr]

37. And a lot more people would be poor. A living wage is one of the goals of union. Without that goal

we would all be working for minimum wage or less.

[jtuck004]

25. We are TAUGHT to hate, and loathe, "poor people". Partly by using "poor people"

when speaking about our neighbors without challenging what one is teaching others.

- no dis intended, just fyi <G>

They are not "poor people", they are good people who have no opportunity, like that we are giving to the big banks.

When the people in power decide these good people are as important as the people who donated so much money to their campaign, we can provide that opportunity as only a government can, and those good people, our neighbors, will be able to do more with it than anyone can ever imagine.

[jwirr]

38. Good point.

[LuckyLib]

27. And most are one or two generations from family

who struggled during the depression. My folks were children and teens then, and it has affected their entire lives - they built savings, but could never spend it on themselves. They taught us to respect tge poor and elderly, knowing how tough it was to make it.

[Octafish]

29. Americans respect rich people.

...on the whole, at least; which explains our national Situation.

Unless one has been poor -- looking for work, losing a home, unable to feed and clothe a family or even one's self -- it's hard to imagine.

We need to develop a new economy, one based on serving humanity, not serving up humanity.

Excellent OP and thread, Yavin4. Spot-on, in every way.

[Ampersand Unicode]

39. Which rich people, though?

Right-wing banker rich people or Hollywood liberal movie star rich people?

Americans may love their movies, but I think more of them respect those in "polished" professions like bankers and the military than the libertines in Hollywood and rock music. Right now it's only millennials who have any respect for Silicon Valley, because a lot of the olds don't get computers or why they make so much money.

I think old-fashioned Christian morality plays a part in the photo finish. Jamie Dimon may be a corrupt Wall Street crook, but at least he's not sleeping around (so far as we know) like Madonna, or snorting coke all day and night like Charlie Sheen. It's not just about the Benjamins but what you did to get them.

I don't know where the fence sways in terms of athletes. Maybe that's a close second in terms of the "rich" that Americans respect:

1. conservative rich with "moral values" (finance/business, military, "megachurch" pastors, inherited wealth)
2. professional sports, possible exception of wrestling because it's "kinda gay" (apolitical?)
3. entertainment and media (movie/TV stars, musicians, models, news anchors) -- tend to be liberal

[Long Drive]

68. Great Post

Thanks.

[RKP5637]

30. Many Americans live on the financial edge and put on a good show to others they are OK. This,

is the land of delusions. Hence, some dump on others, it's a psychological coping mechanism to distance themselves from those they fear they might become.

[JI7]

32. i know struggling people who hate the poor , THEY are not like THEM

[jwirr]

40. Thank you for this op. I suspect that this attitude is part of the reason we lost this election. It

is always hidden in the shadows somewhere.

[Burf-_-]

41. Love Thy nieghbor......

Hate for the poor, the homeless, our waitresses and servers....etc.......

[world wide wally]

46. Altogether too many Americans are not only shallow, but vindictive on top of it

[kairos12]

47. Americans all think they are going to be rich. They don't get the

rigged game they are up against. For the one percent they live in Griftopia.

[ck4829]

48. We HAVE to challenge this, I think if the choice was between majority power or no anti-poor attitude

I would gladly give up the former.

Racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia are all tied with the anti-poor mindset; the same cognitive biases and distortions that play into those also play into it. Challenge the anti-poor ideas, debunk and discredit the things behind them, and you will challenge everything else too.

A sort of ingroup bias is one such shared bias, people view themselves as NOT poor, even though they meet the definition of poor. A poor person is lazy, a poor person made bad choices, a poor person is stupid, a poor person had all the same opportunities as everyone else did and they refused to take them; they say to themselves that they did none of these things or THEIR problems were circumstances beyond their control, hence they can not be truly poor.

A poor person is always somebody else. A poor person is on food stamps and welfare, but they have assistance. A poor person doesn't want to get a job, they don't have a job because of immigrants or affirmative action. A poor is a mooch and is dependent, they are temporarily not-rich.

It is in this regard that the poor serve as an outgroup, even by some poor people themselves.

[Kalidurga]

55. Then there are those that even while they hate the poor...

They have poverty envy. They think poor people have no jobs and are living high on the hog while collecting assistance. They party everyday and the booze flows freely. They have multiple partners. The women have lots of baby daddies and don't know who they are. The men abandon their children. It's just happy fun times everyday. While they themselves have to work long hours or another job to make ends meet (this means you are poor duh, unless you are in a 60 hour a week high paying job). They pulled themselves up by the bootstraps, even if that means that most their college was paid they had to work summers though, bummer. The haters have no clue what the reality is. They think poor means you have to search your couch for change for cigarettes, not that you can't even think about smoking cuz too expensive or you don't drink same reason.

The reality is that poor people on average are more likely to be with one person at a time. The dad's are more engaged with their children on average even if they aren't with the mother. Many poor people are in a 3 income situation, dad works two jobs the mom works one and grandma and grandpa help take care of the kids. They still have a hard time paying the mortgage or rent, the car payments since both adults work various shifts they have to have two cars, sometimes the jobs are very far from the places where rent is somewhat affordable so gas is a big expense.

[grasswire]

56. thus the need for the FDR PARTY in politics

Someone on DU raised that suggestion the other day.

A political movement or party based on Roosevelts Four Freedoms.

How sweet it would be.

[MrScorpio]

60. You get a damn skippy from me on this.

[TorchTheWitch]

61. I've seen more scorn thrown at the poor right on DU

than I've ever come across in person than anywhere else.

[nolabear]

63. People are so terrified by them they convince themselves it's their fault.

Couldn't happen to ME because they have a character flaw that I don't have. Add some unacknowledgeable guilt over not helping them and it results in anger for making me uncomfortable.

If we treated them better they wouldn't be as frightening, but the powers that be do a fine job of preventing that.

[nilesobek]

64. I crossed this country numerous times while

homeless for ten years. Your OP is a generalization, and like a stereotype, has many elements of truth in it. For me, in my experiences, attitudes about the poor are more regional and cultural than the whole country just, "hating the poor."

In Utah there is almost no social services but there seems to be a high level of concern for the poor by the general populace. They will get you a job and will send you to Mormon social services for food and clothing. In Maine, they start asking you in early August if you are," ready for winter?" We actually had a neighborhood guy making sure there was enough wood to burn and that people had oil for their furnaces. Maine was really nice.

On the flip side, Western states, with a couple notable exceptions, are terrible places to be poor. Northern California would be my top pick for hostility. They have homeless fatigue. The guy in the beamer is going to grimace at you, all dirty and beside the road with nowhere to go. You will not be able to panhandle the N. Cali beamer crowd.

My student loan debt had me buried by the time I was 22. I didn't pay off my student loans until I was 45, and that was after they started seizing my tax returns to pay for it.

And yes, I'm taking the the job at the oil company compound in Alaska next year. I put it off for a few months because things would not have been stable enough here for my disabled wife. I just want some good paychecks, I've never had a good paycheck in my life.

I don't think "America hates the poor." There are 60 million of us. Its a little more complicated than that. Americans are fatigued. We have been at war for 15 years straight with tax cuts for the rich. I don't know how they are paying for this war but I'm willing to give my fellow man a break and say, "its not your fault I'm poor."

[UglyGreed]

65. +1000 N/T

[B Calm]

67. When they should be directing their anger at cheap labor conservatives!

[AZ Progressive]

69. You can't talk about America's hatred of the poor without talking about its protestant work ethic

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/opinion/sunday/are-americans-still-puritan.html?_r=0

"Not all of the legacy of Puritanism suggests moral uprightness. Studies since the ’70s have also found that Americans who score high on a Protestant Ethic Scale (emphasizing self-reliance and self-discipline) or similar metric show marked prejudice against racial minorities and the poor; hostility toward social welfare efforts; and, among obese women, self-denigration.

"Why the persistence of Puritanism in American life? “New England exercised a disproportionate influence on American ideals,” the historian John Coffey says, “thanks to a powerful intellectual tradition disseminated through its universities, its dynamic print culture and the writings of its famous clergy.” He also notes the power of Evangelicalism as a carrier of Puritan values and America’s resistance, compared with other largely Protestant nations, to secularization."




Max Weber argued a century ago that America's success was due to its protestantism, that the protestant work ethic (first brought by the Puritans) is why America became great. In particular, this work ethic first started with Calvinism and predestination, that everyone was already chosen by God whether they will have salvation or damnation, and one would be able to see if they were chosen for salvation by their levels of prosperity. Thus everyone had an incentive to prove that they have salvation by working hard and being prosperous. If someone is poor and in need, they were damned and that was God's will. In short, it's part of America's culture to reward prosperity and denigrate the poor. It wasn't always like this, as the Democratic Party has fought this through history, but it seems like it has roots in America, and primarily when the Republicans and other assholes of this country get power and promote their worldviews.

[ProfessorPlum]

70. Great post. And the poor have been taught to hate themselves

“America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five


This is why the rich are able to divide and conquer us.

[MadDAsHell]

72. I think you're oversimplifying it...

I think there are certainly some people who believe that our systems provide everyone with an equal opportunity to succeed, and thus believe every poor person is there because of laziness or bad choices.

But I don't think that "Americans" in general feel that way at all, and to make such a blanket statement seems vindictive and is likely counterproductive to having reasonable conversations with others.

I would guess the average American falls somewhere in the middle when it comes to views on poverty. They probably believe some of the poor are poor almost entirely because of systemic disparities, some of the poor are poor almost entirely because of bad personal choices, and the vast majority are poor because of a mix of both. And if we could really interview every person in poverty, wouldn't we reasonably expect to find cases of all 3?

To say it's entirely one way or the other (conservatives denying that our educational, economic and social systems could possibly have failures, and liberals denying that there could possibly be anyone out there who would take a welfare check over a job) is ignorant of reality, in my honest opinion.