So let me get this straight...

[WilliamPitt]

President Obama winged off to Asia late last week to stump for the job-killing corporate-coronating TPP...

Senate Democrats are as we speak whipping votes for the Keystone XL pipeline...

...and the administration is deploying at least 1,500 more troops to Iraq.

Tell me again: Who needs Republicans?

[belzabubba333]

1. nope youre absolutely right the parties are exactly the same

next time we should ALL stay home that'll REALLY send them a message.

[Scuba]

13. Not the same, but not nearly different enough.

[belzabubba333]

15. different but the same

[Enthusiast]

69. +1 a whole bunch.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

142. Major climate change deal with China, Threatened Presidential veto of Congressional approval of KXL

Non-combat role for the new troops being sent to Iraq, sending troops and supplies to Africa to help tackle their Ebola outbreak, scientific, non-hysterical approach to dealing with Ebola patients in our country that did not result in anything remotely resembling an outbreak, major executive action promised over immigration over howls of protest from Republicans, giving Elizabeth Warren, a progressive Freshman Senator a leadership post.

How "different enough" do Republicans and Democrats have to be? Tell me the Republican response to each of these major things to show how "similar" they are. Please. I'll gladly admit that sometimes PBO and the Democratic Party disappoint me but I am darned thankful every single day that PBO is in the WH and not John McCain or Mitt Romney. Just think how horrible things would be if Mitt Romney or John McCain have a Republican majority in Congress starting in January?

[Scuba]

146. "Less than horrible" isn't good enough. Not for me, anyway.

TPP, drones, NSA spying, banksters stealing homes with impunity, etc., etc., etc.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

154. But it isn't just "less than horrible"

PBO and Dems have done some good things over the past few years. Not perfect and not far enough but things are nowhere near apocalyptic as what the OP is talking about.

[Scuba]

155. If you're satisfied that today's Dems are good enough, then you and I have little in common.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

156. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree

I think that Dems are, overall, a much more palatable and realistic choice of party to support. They are not necessarily perfect and we have work to do to make them better but I'm understanding of the fact that this country moves forward politically in fits and starts in this crazy and conflicted country and the Dems partly reflect that.

[Scuba]

159. Problem is, we're not moving forward, we're moving backward.

[11 Bravo]

177. If you consider the ACA, Gay rights, a minimum wage increase ...

and Supreme Court justices Kagan and Sotomayor, to name but a few, to be examples of "moving backward", it gives one pause to think.
We may not be moving forward as fast as you or I would prefer; but the only people I know who think we're "moving backward" are big fans of Hannity and Pigboy.

[Scuba]

190. One step forward, two back is not progress. Yes, we've made some gains, but the losses ...

... are far greater.

[Scootaloo]

178. You're letting Republicans set your standards and expectations

[mountain grammy]

175. hear, hear..

and with less than 40% of voters voting, less than horrible sounds ok to me.
Today I listened to Bernie Sanders on Thom Hartman as a caller thanked him profusely for all he does and his honesty, etc, etc. Bernie said there are many like him in Congress, who just work hard trying to get things done, we just don't know their names.

It's easy to whine, but not so easy to try to get things done. I dread the responses here if and when Republicans impeach our president. They may go for two, and Boner would be president. A coup, a coup, what will we do? Let's ask the Supremes, oops Scalia was born for this. I think things can get real ugly, real fast.

[RufusTFirefly]

26. Your histrionics are duly noted. n/t

[belzabubba333]

38. this is what im hearing here so they are not my histrionics

[zeemike]

46. If they were both exactly the same do you think you might notice it?

Just as good cop-bad cop are not the same...one feels your pain and the other one delivers it...but in the end they work for the same people...and have the same goals.

We have been manipulated like this for years now...we are getting used to it and even embracing it.

[AllTooEasy]

63. Exactly! This is a BULLSHIT post. These people need Reps:

The people who:

- want to kill marriage, race, and gender equality
- want to take freedom of choice away from women
- want to lower/eliminate taxes for the rich
- want us to go 100,000 ground troops each in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, and Syria
- stand in the way of income equality
- want to make Evangelical Christianity the national religion
- want prayers in public schools
- want to kill the ACA and return to the old system
- want to defund the EPA, FDA, and FEC
- want to sell our national parks to the highest bidder
- want to deregulate every consumer-related protection program
- want to kill green energy
- want to build a fence to block undocumented workers
- want Creationism taught in public schools

I could go on for pages.

Gee Wiz, how people don't see this is utterly maddening. Yes, there is Dem/Rep overlap. Yet clowns that post this crap would suggest that since I like German Sheppards, like Hitler, then I must hate Jews as well.

[leftieNanner]

68. Agree with you completely, except for one thing...

it's spelled "German Shepherds". And I've had four of them. Awesome dogs.

[sulphurdunn]

73. Either the information stated as fact

in the post is true or it is not. What a shopping list of republican idiocy has to do with that escapes me.

[Jackpine Radical]

104. Here's a clue:

[sulphurdunn]

165. If you mean someone has

posited a straw man fallacy, please elaborate. A picture is not always worth more than words.

[Moonwalk]

119. You present the either/or fallacy. The information may be a fact...

...but that doesn't make the post true. That Obama & democrats are doing such may be factually true, but that doesn't make the conclusion drawn from those facts true or even factual. Not without further argument and justification to clarify the comparison.

Which is what that shopping list of republican idiocy has to do with it all. It undermines the comparison, because the comparison is based on three items; the list, also facts, prove that there are more differences then similarities, which prove that the comparison is not valid.

Putting it another way, your use of an either/or fallacy to put us in a corner and *make* us agree with the conclusion even though it may not necessarily be derived from those facts is a republicans trick...but you wouldn't say that you were the same as a republican because you were using that tactic, would you? Even though it is a fact that they use such tactics.

You'd probably have a list of differences to outweigh the similarity of that one thing you share with republicans.

[JDPriestly]

180. If what you write is true, then why do so many people we talk to comment that Republicans

and Democrats are the same.

Clearly, Democrats are not the same as Republicans.

The problem in my view is that Democrats do not make it clear to voters just how and why they are not the same as Republicans.

The media does a great job of minimizing the differences. But a lot of Blue Dog Democrats make it very easy for the media to do that job.

Why in the world is any Democrat in favor of the Keystone XL Pipeline. It does nothing to help American working people.

Why is any Democrat in favor of the TPP. It will hurt American working people and we should not do it. Let's wait until we get the job market we were promised with NAFTA and CAFTA before we launch another assault on American workers.

The Democratic Party needs to do something, stand for something that excites Democratic voters, differentiates Democrats from Republicans and gets voters out to vote for Democrats.

It's not a matter of lists. It is a matter of voter perception. And voters generally perceive the Democrats and Republicans as essentially the same.

[sulphurdunn]

183. The either/or fallacy

requires a choice be made between two positions, both of which, one of which or neither of which may be true. My post merely stated that the individual facts posited by the original poster were either true or false, no conclusion or attempt to imply or state a conclusion was made.

Comparing one list of facts with another list of facts neither requires differences or similarities between them. Neither the original post or mine made any such comparison. The original poster asked a rhetorical question that implied Obama's similarity to republicans. That lends itself to the test of proof. I neither defended nor countered it. To the poster who responded with the "list", I posed the question asking what it had to do with the original post. I will say that it had nothing relevant to do with it, either quantitatively or comparatively. If I state 3 facts about A and you state 10 facts about B, and you wish to discredit or dismiss my facts, then only those facts of yours that counter my three are relevant.

The only attempt to trick here, I believe, is yours.

[rgbecker]

81. Hell, if it were McCain or Romney, Americans would be dying in IRAN right now!

That's assuming Palin didn't get things going with the Russians.

[belzabubba333]

93. exactly - people dont get perfection they have a snit-fit and stay home

[cheapdate]

118. Exactly. The political divisions in this country are real and deep.

The electorate is deeply divided over church and state, crime and punishment, immigration and citizenship, environmental ethics, taxation and fairness, reproductive choice, sexuality and equal protection, and fundamental questions about the nature of self-governance.

There is overlap in some places, such as national security, foreign policy, and aspects of banking and business. Yet even in these areas, there are underlying differences of perspective.

[randys1]

102. Personally i cant wait to see Women dying in back alleys again (sarcasm for christ sake)

there are actually people on here for whom I have to add the last part

but we will be killing Women again soon if people are fucking stupid enough to think both parties are the same

you are correct


Obama hasnt cured cancer yet either, throw the bum out

[belzabubba333]

105. agreed some on here should be ashamed of themselves

[MineralMan]

2. Uff da...

It's going to be a difficult two years, isn't it, Will? You still can't find any differences between Republicans and the Democrats who currently hold office, it seems. Oh, well...

[Andy823]

11. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Some here fail to realize what things would be like now if McCain had won in 2008, or Romney in 2012. It's like they just have one agenda, and it never changes. Claiming the two parties are the same is asinine to say the least.

[840high]

31. That doesn't work for

me anymore. We'll never know what things would have been like. Most likely not very different than now.

[Andy823]

79. If you really believe that

I feel sorry for you.

[sheshe2]

111. I agre with you on that Andy!

I don't know why some people even bother to post on DU with their utter disdain for Democrats.

[A Simple Game]

122. But it's not disdain for Democrats, it's disdain for conservatives.

And there are way too many on DU.

[belzabubba333]

40. i know the piss-poor attitude here is disgraceful- but people here seem to wear it like a badge

yes our pols should do better but dems stopped voting, you didnt "have their back" so they started catering to the people who actually vote. you want them to help you you have to help them help you. if were in congress id say f.u. to the democrats too

[Hissyspit]

98. He didn't claim they are the same.

[belzabubba333]

170. yea he did right here "Tell me again: Who needs Republicans?"

[A Simple Game]

123. Would you have told the poor people of Kentucky that they had to vote

for a person that wouldn't even admit she voted for the President and ran her campaign as opposing most of the President's ideas. You would have urged them to vote for someone that tried to out Republican the Republican?

But you would have anyone on DU banished for not supporting the President on everything.

[Maedhros]

14. He raises a valid point.

If we get arm-twisted into holding our noses and voting for crummy Democrats, because Republicans would be worse!, and then the crummy Democrats push the TPP, whip votes for Keystone XL, and escalate a needless war overseas, exactly what have we gained?

[MineralMan]

16. There are many, many issues. Some of them are even

more important than TPP and Keystone. Truly. Republicans are on the wrong side of every last one of them, too.

Politics has to do with much more than a few issues. It has to do with survival for many.

[RufusTFirefly]

27. Go ahead. Name some that are more important than TPP, Keystone (and you forgot) Iraq n/t

[msanthrope]

29. Human rights for millions of gay people. Voting rights. Abortion rights. The Environment.

Equal pay.

You know....shit that doesn't affect straight white males.

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. +1 eom.

[SoapBox]

71. Gosh look at all that!

There are issues more important the TPP, Keystone and Iraq!

Who knew?!?

Oh...millions of us.

[Raine1967]

75. Agreed.

I Am concerned about TPP and keystone, but I have to say, social issues/equality are really where my heart lies.

This trip was planned months before the Senator from Louisiana entered into a runoff election.

[Number23]

107. And with that, you just won this thread. Sorry for the crappy prize

But you should have clarified... lots of issues are important, not just the ones that only straight, white males care about.

[nomorenomore08]

109. +2

[sheshe2]

112. ~

[SidDithers]

186. And boom goes the dynamite...

Sid

[MineralMan]

41. The right to vote, LGBT rights, reproductive rights, and many

others. TPP will affect trade and the corporate world. Keystone will send oil through a pipeline rather than in rail cars. Corporations will still operate, with or without TPP, and the oil will move from where it is produced to refineries.

Voter suppression and human rights issues are far more important to people than either of those two. If you can't see that, it's time to visit your optometrist.

[Demeter]

89. The right to vote for DINOs?

Not exactly what I want in my Xmas stocking, sir.

[MineralMan]

100. I don't vote for DINOS.

Everyone on my ballot in 2014 was a progressive, and they all won. Still, I will always vote for a Democrat over any Republican. The ability to vote is precious, and Republicans want to take that away. You do what you want. I'm voting.

I help pick my candidates.

[ballyhoo]

115. I suggest you read TPP. It puts a partnership of corporate fascists overruling

our sovereignty. That stands pretty high with me. I'm sure everyone will be so pleased when their generic prescriptions cost triple. This is one of the enumerated aims of TPP.

[Art_from_Ark]

120. TPP would affect more than just trade and the corporate world

It Japan, it is predicted that TPP would put thousands of people in farming areas like Hokkaido out of work, lots of other small producers would likely get wiped out, too. You have nothing to gauge how it would affect ordinary Americans, since there is so little public information available about it in the US.

The Keystone XL could do significant damage to the largest and arguably most critical aquifer in the Great Plains. It would not merely be transporting oil, it would be transporting one of the most toxic forms of crude oil. And, as was recently demonstrated in Mayflower, Arkansas, oil pipelines can rupture and cause serious environmental damage.

[ballyhoo]

143. Excellent post, Art. I am beginning to wonder if

people understand hierarchies of importance anymore. Yes, some social endeavors are important. But they are not as important as that which will kill us rendering that of social importance redundant.

[olegramps]

172. I understand that many are concerned about the environment, myself included:

I understand that the oil from Canada is dirtier and will add to the pollution of the climate, but it appears that blocking the pipe line will not solve that problem. If the pipe line is blocked then it will be sent by rail. There seem to be some merit to the argument that this is more dangerous and will tax the already under performing rail system that is having problems with grain shipments. The greatest fear by some is that it may fail and pollute the massive Ogalla aquifer that is essential for the ability to produce a majority of our grains. I don't understand why it can't be rerouted or done with double wall pipe in which if the inner pipe has a leak then the leak would still be contained until the pipe could be prepared.

I just want to add that it is my understanding the pipe line will carry oil from the Northern U.S. oil fields that is presently shipped by rail. If any of what I have cited is erroneous please correct me.

[MineralMan]

173. The oil will move, one way or another.

The United States is criss-crossed with pipelines already. They're pretty much everywhere, since transporting petroleum through pipelines is the most economical method. Safer, too, overall. Yes, there are pipeline breaks from time to time. The oil that spills doesn't really infiltrate deep aquifers, though. It's more likely to contaminate soils when spills occur. The contaminated soil then must be removed. It's a big problem, of course.

On the other hand, shipping oil by rail is quite dangerous. Rail lines go primarily between major cities in the US. In my city, St. Paul, they come right into the middle of the city and large rail yards are a commonplace in our major cities. Right now, the oil being shipped in tank cars by rail are choking our freight lines, and it's not just crops that aren't being transported in a timely way.

The answer, of course, is to stop using so much oil so it wouldn't need to be transported in massive quantities. There's some progress in that direction but, for the foreseeable future, we'll still have a petroleum-based energy base.

Given the vast network of petroleum product pipelines already in place, I'm not seeing the damage that is being described as a real threat to the environment. The real threat to the environment is in burning all of that oil and the other fuels created from it.

My opinion is not a popular one here. But, thinking about the threat of massive rail car spills and fires in our major cities' rail yards or along the rail lines makes me think that pipelines are a better way to transport this stuff all around.

Again, the real solution is to end the need for all of that petroleum as fuel.

[jwirr]

47. Food programs, Social Security, Medical programs, Housing, Jobs, Education. I am very much

against TPP, Keystone and Iraq. But I do not want to see the Rs destroy these safety net programs and the middle class to the point that we are in another Great Depression. Been there, done that. And let me tell you it was the Rs and their bankers that did it in 1929 and may now do it again.

One thing I did not mention as more important is the environment. Do you think they are really interested in protecting our environment? They deny that it is even in danger.

What we did by staying home because the Ds are no different is help to destroy what we still have left.

[BobbyBoring]

70. Benghazi!

sorry, couldn't pass it up!

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. Besides ...

the Democratic candidates that many here WANTED, ran and lost, along with those they would have held their noses to vote for.

[midnight]

137. Not many know what was/is written in either of those two deals. Most of it done by

corporate attorneys. But I have the feeling that the survival of many is going to be compromised by the chemicals leaching into one of our main aquifers if that pipe is put in. The timing is odd since alternative power such as solar is doing so well.

And of course TPP.

I too have the feeling that lots more going to be hurt than helped. Just because of all the secrecy. This article has links to other groups that show how hurtful this deal will be.

"The TPP and TAFTA represent a new era of deception and back-room dealing to pass laws that have nothing to do with trade, but that hand even greater power to multinational corporations to profit from everything no matter the consequences for the health of people and the planet. For the first time, the text of the agreements has been classified and they are being negotiated in secret with hundreds of corporate advisers and minimal involvement by Congress. In order to complete the agreements without transparency and public input, the President has asked Congress to grant him the authority to sign them, ‘Fast Track,’ a form of Trade Promotion Authority.

As elections get closer, Democratic Party leaders in Congress are getting the message out to inside-the-beltway activists groups that they are unifying to support giving President Obama some form of Fast Track. Recent letters from member of Congress to the President indicate support for trade with particular stipulations, but the overall message is to continue negotiating. Washington advocacy groups believe that they must also show support for Fast Track or they will find themselves without access or influence.

Rather than kowtowing to the usual ‘on the table’ threat from the corrupt bi-partisan Congress, the movement needs to tell them that the only thing on the table is a complete transformation from the failed global trade that rigs profits for big business at the expense of the ecology of the planet and the necessities of the people. It is time to declare the TPP, TAFTA and the Services agreements as dead, develop a new approach to trade and begin to renegotiate past trade agreements like NAFTA that are doing ongoing damage to the economy, planet and people.

Congress be warned: The people are watching and are onto the rigged trade corruption scheme. Members of Congress will pay a political price, with the end of their careers, if they continue to force their failed trade strategy on the nation and the world."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-trans-pacific-partnership-stop-the-tpp-and-other-rigged-trade-agreements/5395424

[BumRushDaShow]

88. All politics is local

which is what directly impacts the electorate... and that should be the focus.

But when one obsesses over vaporware issues that have not gone into effect after 6 years of empty threats that they would, they should also embrace the stuff that WILL go into effect with their support of the other side.

To quote EarlG -

[JDPriestly]

181. The problem is not reality. It is the voters' and the media's perception of the reality.

The parties are similar in terms of their funding sources, their appointments of corporate toadies to top jobs in their administrations and many other things. The voters perceive them as being the same. So how do we change the voters' perception of this.

I cannot tell you how many people have told me that after all Democrats and Republicans are so similar they can't tell the difference.

How do you get Democrats out to vote when the public perception equates Democrats with Republicnas. Reality is not the problem. Perception is the problem.

[Autumn]

3. Better question. Who the hell needs Democrats?

With friends like this who needs enemies.


darn spell check.

[msanthrope]

30. What is the object of "enemy's?" nt

[uppityperson]

83. To annoy people who notice grammar errors and mispellings.

And yes, I did it on purpose.

[jtuck004]

59. Buncha people who probably don't post here answered that one already. n/t

[cali]

4. look, I understand your frustration, but please, the two parties are not the same

Do you really need to be told what republicans will do in the new congress?

[WilliamPitt]

5. Do I need to remind you

of the incandescent rant of yours that made it to the top of the Greatest Page yesterday?

To wit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025805634

"Both parties are controlled, to a frightening degree, by corporate power and money from the 1%. Close to $4 billion was spent on the midterm elections. It came from .2% of the population."

So...when the Democrats are barnstorming for Keystone, and the president is pushing the TPP while dumping more troops into Iraq, why do you think it's happening? You wrote that. Tell me how we differ.

I'll wait.

[Andy823]

7. Yep

Cali had a good rant there, but not near as bad as the one where some joker called the president a used car salesman piece of shit. Now "that" rant was the worst ever.

[1StrongBlackMan]

53. Get over it ...

He didn't mean it ... Besides when he calmed down (from that emotion fueled venting) he apologized and deleted the post as inappropriate ...

Wait ...

[Andy823]

77. Really?

I have a bridge in New York you might want to buy, interested?

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. I should have used the sarcasm thingy. eom.

[sheshe2]

113. If I remember correctly, and I do...

That apology came on April Fools Day~

[MineralMan]

8. If we are reminding people of things...

Well...maybe we shouldn't be doing that.

[Iliyah]

28. You know what MM let the GOPers take their country back!

sarcasm

[DisgustipatedinCA]

74. Oh, we can remind people of all sorts of things.

Maybe we should.

[MineralMan]

103. Knock yourself out...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

108. Cool. I think you're giving me permission to ask a question I've always wanted to ask you.

But I want to be certain. You already know the topic. Do I have your ok to ask this somewhat personal question about THAT TIME in open discussion? Would you rather I send the question via private message? Thanks.

[MineralMan]

110. I'm not giving you anything.

Not permission, because I have no right to do that. You are your own agent. You will act as you see fit, and I will not answer any questions from you, in public or private. I do not know you and you do not know me. Best to leave it that way, I think.

This thread is not about me.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

148. Ok. I'll leave that question unexamined.

[MineralMan]

153. Good decision.

[Mojorabbit]

133. Great hijacking of the thread already. Please proceed. nt

[cali]

12. No where in that op do I allude to the two parties being the same

The republicans, for instance, are planning to gut the EPA. Dems have never done anything like that. Obviously, I'm none too thrilled about the democratic party, but no, I don't see the two parties as the same.

[LawDeeDah]

60. That was a fair and honest thread you started.

and you didn't have to shit your diapers in rage to get your point across.

[cali]

138. wow. what world do you live in that you think this:

No where in that op do I allude to the two parties being the same

The republicans, for instance, are planning to gut the EPA. Dems have never done anything like that. Obviously, I'm none too thrilled about the democratic party, but no, I don't see the two parties as the same.

is "shitting your diapers in rage"?

what the heck is wrong with the likes of you, honeypie?

[LawDeeDah]

147. babycakes, obviously you misunderstood.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

163. "Honeypie"? Who the fuck do you think you are?? nt

[Bobbie Jo]

167. Better than

would be my guess....

Condescending as hell, no?

When people "come off" like this, I've found that I don't have much use for anything else they have to say, brilliant or otherwise....

Yuck.

[Hissyspit]

99. Neither does Will.

[Recursion]

6. Maybe you don't need Republicans, William

Maybe the differences between Pryor and Cotton just don't move you. I understand. We all come from where we are.

But there are people for whom the difference between a conservative Democrat and an even more conservative Republican in office are matters of life and death. Personally I try to think of them when I vote.

But, like I said, maybe your life just doesn't expose you to those differences.

[LondonReign2]

17. And you're probably aware that he (and I, and virtually everyone here)

went out and voted for Democrats this last election.

Pointing out that our Democrats SUCK and are not only not fighting against the Republicans but are actually helping them, even before being officially out of the majority, hardly means we'd go vote for a Republican.

Shrugging our collective shoulders and mumbling, Oh well, this is the best we can get is worse than useless.

[Recursion]

19. Then why write an OP pretending they aren't different?

[LondonReign2]

21. The OP is about policies in which they AREN'T different

Should we just pretend we suddenly like these things just because those with D's after their name seem to now support them?

[Recursion]

22. Well I don't think the D's (or the R's) would support another Iraq deployment if it came to a vote

(And, in fairness, I'm just as much against it now as I was 12 years ago.)

TPP I find to be an incredibly overblown yawnfest, which both its supporters and detractors make way too much of.

That leaves Keystone, which as far as I can tell is an attempt to put the oil spill risk at point A rather than at point B, which I also can't get worked up about.

Still, my guess is that the Iraq deployment will never get voted on, TPP will get sidetracked, and Keystone will be approved but never built because it becomes less economically feasible each day.

[Iliyah]

32. Rs want more ground troop interventions

but hey I guess that's what some DUers want. I know this, if a GOPers wins in 2016 many sons are leaving the country.

[jwirr]

56. It is easy to agree with you because you describe the situation we are in. I get angry when some

one does not see the difference between the two parties. But then I am 73 years old and poor.

The difference is clear in the way they think about the issues that impact my life. My age lets me see that it is not going to be easy for my children and their children. They want to destroy every program that helps anyone other than the rich. I do not see that in the Democratic party.

Being poor has taught me that there is a big difference. When the Rs are in they decide that all of us who are poor are crooks so they increase the paper work to qualify and many of us are not longer getting qualified. The Democrats on the other hand believe that there is something to salvage in us and they create programs like Social Security, student loans, works programs, health care, etc.

I am not saying that President Obama is right in campaigning for the TPP, Keystone or another Iraq war or any of the other programs to satisfy the rich. I actually feel like he has abandoned us. I like all of you wonder why he would do this. Because it is going to impact the future of the Democratic Party and the world.

I am lucky here in MN I did not lose this election in my state. I have legislators that I can be proud of. So I really do not speak for all of you. Maybe many of you do come from states where the Democratic Party does not work for you any more. I do not.

[BeyondGeography]

64. "Being poor has taught me that there is a big difference."

Quoted for truth. There won't be a better post in this thread. Thank you.

[jwirr]

65. I learned it the hard way. Thank you.

[Art_from_Ark]

189. I watched Pryor and Cotton commercials on Arkansas TV

Although my mother and I both knew that Pryor was the better candidate, from their commercials, it was hard to distinguish one from the other. Pryor did get in a few punches about Cotton's ties to the Koch Brothers, but that didn't seem to resonate so well with the voters. Cotton came across as an "Aw, shucks" kind of guy from a small town (Dardenelle), implying that he could relate better with the state's large rural and small-town populations. Both of them played up their religious beliefs.

[snooper2]

9. Have you wrote about the horrors of the Front Range NGL Pipeline yet?

get to work!

[Octafish]

10. Get ready for Hillary.

Wal-mart salutes you!

[Cali_Democrat]

18. Elections have consequences

America wanted to move right and it's happening. That was the message America sent on Nov. 4th.

Even uber-conservative Dem Alison Grimes was rejected in favor of an even more conservative candidate.

Whining on the internet will do nothing to change that reality.

Now America is getting exactly what it wanted.

[stevenleser]

25. You beat me to it. + infinity

When the wrong guys win, the wrong things happen.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

130. You agree with that crap?

Really? America wanted a shift to the right?

Gerrymandering, voter suppression and the right wing noise machine media.

America wanted a shift to the right?

Aren't you some kind of Democratic strategist when you are on Fox?

Love ya but I hope you keep that shit under your hat.

[stevenleser]

169. That elections have consequences? Are you disputing that? nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

187. No but that isn't the first time I've seen that poster saying America wanted a sshift to the right.

[Iliyah]

35. 37 % voted,

brought in many insane RWers.

[progressoid]

36. Wait. So the result of the election is making Democrats preemptively move to the right?

[Cali_Democrat]

39. Correct.

Senate Dems especially were always on the more conservative side. Now they're going to become even more conservative because voters rejected them in favor of the GOP on Nov. 4th.

[truebrit71]

52. Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.

The majority of the 28% of the people that could be bothered to get off their La-Z-boys and stumble to the polling stations "wanted to move to the right"....THAT was the message "America" sent on Nov 4th...but it sure as hell wasn't what "America" wanted...otherwise how do you explain pot legislation passing, or minimum wage propositions passing, or anti-fracking resolutions passing..

But you're right about one thing. The rest of us get to deal with exactly what the inaction of those dis-engaged/dis-interested/lazy/apathetic results in....

[Cali_Democrat]

72. Here's the problem

The electorate wanted things like a minimum wage increase. I'm sure the electorate would also support an unemployment extension.

But then they voted for GOP reps who want to abolish the minimum wage altogether.

Sure certain progressive initiatives passed, but when it came to the US Congress and state legislatures, the voters voted in GOPers who want to abolish things like the minimum wage.

How does that make any sense?

It doesn't.

The electorate is a confused, idiotic bunch unfortunately

[arcane1]

76. I blame that on slogans too, in part.

A ballot initiative at least requires a little reading, and its description is usually free of the buzz words and catch phrases that politicians use to describe themselves and their opponents. Liberal ideas are hugely popular when described in plain language. Politicians are all about branding, and frankly the conservatives do that better.

But at least liberals are better at humor. Small consolation

[ballyhoo]

116. Depends. If only 36.6 per cent of voters voted that means an even lower

per cent accounted for the decisions. What was it 24 per cent or something? So did 24 per cent decide all the miscellaneous laws and props in various states that Democrats keep touting about? I used to take it all apart; this time I didn't even stay up for vote totals. I missed the Senate win by one. However, I mainly agree with your post. You always try to tell it like it is. That is becoming more and more important, imo. If everyone holds to their own opinion, the same mistakes will be made going forward.

[pkdu]

136. ....and that % who voted , was only voting for 1/3 of congress. Hardly a "mandate "

[Marr]

131. That does not logically follow.

The electorate voted for liberal things like minimum wage increases, but not Democrats-- particularly not conservative Democrats.

This election proved that the Democratic Party is no longer particularly associated with liberal ideas-- not that the public wants to move further right.

[eShirl]

20. The Koch Brothers do.

[m-lekktor]

23. i don't seem to equate "who needs republicans"

to "both parties are the same" as a few here seem to.

oh yeah. I agree.

[Dawgs]

24. You're not wrong, but one party is far right and the other is just right of center.

I would ask 'Is there any party that

[Zen Democrat]

43. Obama is center left. As is the country. Most just don't know it!

[jwirr]

33. Actually you could be right. If we are lucky they will continue their do nothing policy and they

will even refuse to vote on these issues. Not holding my breathe.

We do not have a majority - I cannot see what one Senator (Landreau) more or less is going to make any difference for us. Let her win or lose as she can and do not sell us out on the pipeline. That is my opinion.

That aquifer is more valuable to us than selling Canada's oil to the rest of the world. I watched Ed last night and the congressman he had on was trying to convince us that the oil will belong to us as much as Canada and that we are not going to sell it on the world market. He said it was going to help our gas prices. Also said that the oil from ND was going to be transported by that line.

Ed had a hard time keeping still and when the interview was over said he did not agree with him. I wonder if anything the congressman said was true?

[JEB]

34. One party takes a rusty wire brush to your backside,

the other employs a bright and shiny wire brush. Neither one inspires much affection.

[belzabubba333]

37. i thought he went to china about greenhouse gasses

[Zen Democrat]

42. He's not a dictator. He would have to approve Keystone regardless of the Senate.

He went go Asia and got a carbon emissions agreement.

ISIS is just about history, and that's because Obama sent in "advisors" that have been of great assistance to the Kurds who are beating ISIS.

The Ebola "crisis" in America is *poof* gone.

Harry Reid is whipping Keystone for Mary Landrieu's seat (although I think that's a lost cause).

Anyway, Obama is the most liberal president we've had since JFK. LBJ got JFK's legislation passed after the shock of the assassination, but he was a war hawk all the way. And he undoubtedly was into the cover-up of the assassination.

Obama gave us a first-time health care system that's going to make a big difference on the way to single-payer.

Obama put two liberal females on the Supreme Court.

Obama has been down with LGBT rights.

Obama has been fighting for all the right things but only had a short span of four months in 2009 when he had 60 votes to overturn a filibuster. Give him a break, and

Get off his back.

[former9thward]

61. Most liberal since JFK?

Obama seems to think it was Nixon...

President Barack Obama said that he is “in a lot of ways” less liberal than former Republican President Richard Nixon and said Fox News Channel's Bill O’Reilly has been “absolutely” unfair to him throughout his presidency in an interview that aired Monday night.

“In a lot of ways Richard Nixon was more liberal than I was,” Obama said. “He started the EPA, started a whole lot of the regulatory state that has helped keep our air and water clean.”


http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/02/03/22560607-obama-says-fox-newss-oreilly-absolutely-unfair-in-extended-interview?lite

[NYC Liberal]

121. And Obama was wrong. In fact, on MANY if most, issues

PBO is as liberal or more so than FDR. Yes, that is a fact.

Nixon was a right-wing monster.

[LondonReign2]

184. Obama was wrong...about himself?

[NYC Liberal]

188. Yes. Nixon was NOT more liberal in ANY respect.

He didn't give a shit about the environment. He would fit right in with today's right-wing GOP.

[LawDeeDah]

67. rec this post. unrec the opening post.

[sheshe2]

114. Bravo/Brava

Well done Zen.

[KG]

44. why can't you write pretty, like stevie and nance?

[Autumn]

85. Good question KG

[OnyxCollie]

128. Needs more italics.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Which is why I vote for/against policies and principles rather than party or politician. K&R

I've held my nose and voted Democratic more often than not. But, when they start voting for and supporting Republican policies and spouting off Republican principles it impedes my nose holding abilities and "not as bad" isn't good enough.

[840high]

101. +10

[MissDeeds]

48. Oh but look!

They all have "Ds" after their names so it's all good, right?



Good question, Will

K&R

[Skittles]

49. SOME OF US GET IT

F*** THOSE WHO DO NOT

[ConservativeDemocrat]

54. Will, I invite you to the Discussionist, where you can talk to real live Republicans

And some people who don't like the Republican party because they're too left wing.

It might help you level-set your expectations a bit.

Ultimately, the "center" of the country isn't where you think it should be. The "center" of the country is where the voters elect it to be.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[TeeYiYi]

55. The worst part of the trip to China, in my opinion...

...was Obama stabbing Tibet in the back:

"We recognise Tibet as part of the People's Republic of China. We are not in favour of independence." http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/4302-president-obama-says-us-is-not-in-favour-of-tibetan-independence

TYY

[chowder66]

80. The President's view is in line with the Dalai Lama's

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/2/21/dalai-lama-obamatomeetonrightsabuses.html

[Kalidurga]

57. I get it I really do

Once upon a time it looked like the United States would finally become that shining light of freedom and liberty. The hype far exceeds the reality of the situation. Democrats have often stood up for civil rights and the environment and at one time for the rights of working people. Our country has fallen short of it's ideals and the hype. Democrats have caved to the 1% and this administration has let bankers do what they do and that's tank the economy and the do it with impunity.

However, one party can be changed if enough of us demand change. The other party is hopelessly lost in the late 1600's. One party is blatantly racist, the other is not. One party puts women's lives in jeopardy and the other at least tries not to. One party supports making it harder for people to vote the other does not. One party at least says nice things about protecting the environment, the other has a scorch and salt the earth policy and if you are agin that then you are a pinko commie asking for handouts.

So, IMO one party is sick but can be healed. The other just needs to go away, not be marginalized, I mean it needs to just go away.

[Number23]

58. Oh well. I was hoping this would be the first post this millennia that begins with "so let me get

this straight" that actually says something interesting, important or moderately eloquent.

Here's hoping to the next one. Which, knowing how overused that phrase is by the stale writers here, will probably be along within the hour.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

62. I have no use for Republicans, or any Democrat acting like one.

This press for the TPP and the XL pipeline is simply criminal. Crime against nature. Probably either/or will be a crime against humanity. If they make the Ogallala aquifer unusable it will be a tragedy like we haven't seen before. And the TPP is going to be WORSE than NAFTA from what I see.

[Enthusiast]

66. Kicked and recommended!

This well thought out SCHEME by the PTB® is working like a charm.

[colsohlibgal]

78. We've Come A Long Way

The Democrats have morphed over time to be very much like the Republican party of my youth. Not all of them but the DCCC types who run it. The Republicans have morphed into the John Birch Society + Fascism party.

In other words both parties have moved strongly to the right and away from populism.

The best thing we could do to maybe turn the river back is to somehow get to public funding of election, to eliminate what is in essence legalized quid pro quo bribery, sorry Supreme Court.

[sulphurdunn]

82. When a political party

sells out on matters or war and peace, economics and the environment, one should know where it really stands on social policy without having to think too hard.

[blue neen]

86. Maybe this won't mean anything to you, but I sure hope that it does.

You have a mom, wife, and beautiful daughter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125552709

[ReRe]

87. Check, check and check

All I can figure, Will, is everyone went to Disneyland.

[stupidicus]

90. well, as you can see, many are satified with a slow death by a thousand cuts

and supportive of such things because they or their dogs got a bone. It's almost like because the two parties aren't "identical", or have important policy pursuit differences that supply the bones, that such things are acceptable. That's why they dodged your legitimate critique on the issue and focused on the accuracy of the implied "both the same" line. Dodging is a skill thirdwayers have honed as well as any of their rightwinger cousins, because it gives them an out when they can't defnd the indefensible, and some could even delude themselves into thinking that they addressed and completely rebutted the thing they dodged just for responding.

I'm guessing that I can take all of this a bit better and in stride than some because I was dealing with that type at the end of the BC admin, and in the lead up to the Iraq war where the BC lies about wmds no doubt assisted in selling the case for war/occupation, not to mention made it a bipartisan affair.

[Rex]

92. I see your fans showed up to hrummphh at you

You think they vote? I bet good money on not.

[INdemo]

94. Progressive party

We need to organize a progressive party..Why are Senate Democrats inventing a leadership role position for Elizabeth Warren for a political party that no longer exists.

[bigwillq]

95. K and R

[Odin2005]

96. As Truman famously said:

"Given the choice between a real Republican and a fake Republican the voter will prefer the real one>'

[IronLionZion]

97. You do!

So we got rid of the red state dems, and some from blue states too including yours and mine. How many more dems do we need to purge?

You need republicans to defeat democrats and teach us all some sick lesson.

Tell me exactly how the TPP, Keystone XL, or troops to Iraq affect you personally. Write some more books on that.

Because many less wealthy Americans benefit from Democratic social programs and infrastructure every day. Programs that the GOP are about to cut purely out of spite to sabotage our economic recovery and blame the president. Social programs that you take for granted, but others depend on for basic survival.

Someone with an expensive pre-existing condition who is about to lose their health insurance subsidies doesn't give a fuck about the Keystone XL pipeline and won't live long enough to wait for single payer.

[belzabubba333]

106. but how can this be both parties are the same

Breaking: Pres Obama's Press Sec, Josh Earnest, says he Will VETO any Legislation to Force Approval of keystone --

[Spitfire of ATJ]

117. Dems often start out as the opposite of Republicans....

....and then Republicans talk some sense into them.

[polichick]

124. Hater!

[DeSwiss]

125. K&R

[OnyxCollie]

129. +1. nt

[woo me with science]

132. The horrible truth.

United oligarchy, NOT gridlocked democracy.

Oligarchy *pretending* to be democracy, with a massive, lying PR machine to help.

[CanSocDem]

150. Indeed! (eom)

[BeanMusical]

126. Kick and R.

[grahamhgreen]

127. Who? democrats. How else would they get elected?

[mahina]

134. China climate agreement? Vetoing keystone?

Myanmar?

But I agree with your conclusion completely!

[BainsBane]

135. Newsflash: You don't have Democrats in power any more

That was the point of the election two weeks ago. People here insisted the Democrats deserved to be taught a lesson. Well they were. The Democratic Party was defeated, and the GOP increased it's power. I find it astounding how much people complain when they got everything they wanted. Sure, people have to wait two years to get the Democrat out of the White House, but it gives the people who believe destruction of the Democratic party will usher in an era of true "leftism" something to look forward to.

Who needs Republicans? Lots of people, the right, Republican voters, and seemingly those on the "left" who who want to see the Democratic Party defeated. For whatever reason, those constituencies clearly feel they need Republicans, and lots of them.

[woo me with science]

139. Thank you, Will.

Huge K&R

We are still being shat upon and told that it's merely enriched snow.

The ONLY way to prevail is to expose the shameless Kabuki propaganda machine for what it is and make the country realize what has really been done to our democracy.

It's united oligarchy, not gridlocked democracy.

[Rose Siding]

141. Your memory is as short as most Americans.

[alarimer]

144. Exactly.

But the cheerleaders are out in force here.

We would be screaming if Bush did this (and we did scream when he did this), but if it's "our" guy, it's a-ok.

Hypocrites.

[ballyhoo]

145. Exactly!

[oberliner]

149. There are plenty of other sites for bashing Democrats

This is not one of them.

[WilliamPitt]

161. You say bashing.

I say correcting.

I voted. I get to complain.

Deploy your coping skills.

[lonestarnot]

151. Gelatinous crap! We have become gelatinous crap.

[Hotler]

152. I have no hope. I see no future.

It is insane Sir. I watched Harry and his new committee on C-SPAN and I swear he had just got done sucking Mitch's dick.
Oh how I would love to see democrats give the repugs a big heaping dose of their own shit for two years straight.
Tell me there is no shadow government.

[Zorra]

158. Nobody needs republicans, or Democrats who act like republicans.

They are especially bad for children.

[B Calm]

160. I think you got it Will! but, McConnell thinks he has to stop that socialist in

the White House.

[WilliamPitt]

162. Let's make it official

William Rivers Pitt | Who Needs Republicans?
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/27445-who-needs-republicans

[maxrandb]

164. Give it a rest

Obviously, this type of attitude worked, as 2014 saw the lowest voter turnout in nearly a century. You're plan worked to perfection!

I guess we'll find out over the next two years how "much alike" the two parties are.

Since you can find no reason to support this President on anything...despite the fact that his Asia trip resulted in the most significant agreement on CO2 reductions EVER, maybe no one is "Democrat" enough for you.

I for one have had enough of the "Dems are just like Repubs" bullshit. Perhaps you...and the dozens of people across the country that agree with you should go form your own party.

[WilliamPitt]

166. Heh.

Yeah, the low voter turnout was my fault.

The front page of DU says, "You're wrong."



Try harder next time. These pat answers to legitimate concerns are really, really getting boring.

[maxrandb]

193. Yes, I'm sure that

all the incessant "wahhhh - Obama didn't do this liberal thing so why should we support him" posts and article and diatribes had nothing to do with turnout.

And...I'm sure that Republican majority will get working right away on restoring voting rights and reversing those voting restrictions.

Hey, at least you can crow that "You sent a message to the Democratic Party" as the country burns around you.

[Babel_17]

168. I don't know about the troops to Iraq

I suppose the most fulfilling task for a soldier is directly defending the nation. But fighting ISIL, and thus securing the world (and especially the helpless people under ISIL rule) from the evil they embody isn't too shabby.

It would be better if we could have prevented this situation but now that's it here I can't fault the administration for wanting to secure a region we helped destabilize. We can debate the wisdom of it but I don't see this deployment as comparable to the adventurism we've seen advocated by Republicans.

[WilliamPitt]

171. -- Lyndon Johnson, 1964

[Babel_17]

182. I see that as being very different

And ISIL is not North Vietnam. North Vietnam was a united people with amazing leaders. Really, just not comparable. Yeah, foreign intervention is foreign intervention. But we aren't going to stop doing that. We can't walk away from our humanitarian obligations.

And that is where the analogy really breaks down, imo. What, if anything, do we owe to the people of a region our government destabilized, versus what we thought we were obligated to do in Vietnam?

If we don't owe the people in that area military aid then we owe them transport to a safe area to live.

[staggerleem]

174. I'm usually right there with you, Mr. Pitt.

But this time - not so much.

In China, the President, and his Chinese counterpart, announced an historic deal on Climate Change.

This morning, contradictorily-named White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest announced that President Obama would VETO any legislation forcing Keystone XL approval.

More troops to Iraq? OK ... on THAT point, I AM with you!

So who needs Republicans? NOBODY!

But we DO need REAL Democrats! Maybe, over these next two years, this President can remind us exactly what one of those looks like. (Hint - see the Congressional Progressive Caucus!)

[Peacetrain]

176. Honestly .. I have to take a couple of aspirin every time I read one of your ops

lately Pitt.. get yourself informed before you start that they are all the same smear..

[JDPriestly]

179. K&R.

Sane people need to take back the Democratic Party.

[SidDithers]

185. ...

Sid

[marmar]

191. Will, it seems that you've touched a nerve .......

...... because the spin cycle downthread is particularly pathetic.

[WilliamPitt]

192. We live to serve.