General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy the Gruber tapes are so damaging to democrats and
why the republicans will continue to exploit the living hell out of them:
It's simple. The message has swiftly been distilled by the republicans and the MSM to:
Democrats think YOU are stupid.
IADEMO2004
(5,560 posts)Bumper sticker vs. term paper. Bumper sticker wins again because who wants to waste time studying an issue?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Many here outright say as much as a reflexive response any time the American public's preferences don't coincide with their own. And if the "You're stupid!" line of argumentation isn't winning back the public they'll leap for the ever-gentler, "You're racist!"
But that belies the point Gruber has now been seen repeatedly asserting to using subterfuge and accounting gimmicks to hide the intentions of his construct. He was paid handsomely via sole-source contracts.
Those who are in denial of this fact will scream, "You're stupid!" to try and scare people away from discussing it but repeating what Gruber said only underscores what Gruber said, not diminish it. "You're stupid," is a defense but usually the Defense is employed after the Offense has been rendered. In this instance the Defense IS the Offense. There is no fallback position now.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Exactly WHO did Gruber think was so stupid they had to be lied to? R Reps & Senators? Obviously not, since not a single one of them voted for it. The old white farts who showed up to protest at townhall meetings? Well, no, since they were against it from the start. The general public? Well, since a whole lot of them voted against Obama, who had been promising this sort of program, it must be more specific than that.
Must be he meant the D Reps & Sens, who actually voted for the bill. Must be he meant those of us who supported the bill all along, and those who voted Obama/Biden in 2008.
So, since he must have been specifically calling YOU stupid, how do you feel about his remarks now??
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)That being said, I honestly never wholeheartedly supported the ACA.
Any *thing* that relied on private, for-profit corporations means only one thing: codified profiteering. Not markets, not efficiency, not cost-cutting. Just profiteering by force of law.
I'm just a stupid hick country girl. Certainly no match for the wits of a big city MIT economist -- but I know bullshit when I smell it.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Sorry about that.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I was tending to agree with you anyway.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)from one country hick girl to another!
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)the one put together by Rahm Emanuel for dealing with the fucking retarded liberals.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Now, though, as the election enters its final death throes and the spasms of partisan desperation get ever more intense, Democrats are flinging out a special version of the old berate-the-base tactic. Rather than copping to the presidents betrayals and explaining them away as allegedly necessary compromises, one of the presidents chief surrogates, Rahm Emanuel, is publicly insisting that the presidents most loyal supporters are downright stupid because they believe Obama made specific promises which he supposedly never made.
http://inthesetimes.com/article/7080/was_rahm_right
former9thward
(32,082 posts)Chief of Staff. He said certain liberals were "fucken retarded".
White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel apologized to the head of the Special Olympics today after the Wall Street Journal reported the fiery Chicagoan privately called a group of liberal activists "fing retarded."
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2010/02/rahm-apologizes-for-privately-calling-liberal-activists-retarded/
You notice he did not apologize to liberals, just the Special Olympics.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)jazzimov
(1,456 posts)Some Liberals were discussing advertising against less-Liberal Democrats. Rahm said that IDEA was "fucking retarded". He never called the Liberals themselves retarded.
pkdu
(3,977 posts)they are not helpful to those who are still waiting for their glitter-shitting pony, and in fact are likely to give them a " sad ".
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the many lies told by republicans.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)How much attention did McConnell's blatant lies about repealing Obamacare but keeping Kynect get?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)2012 must have been a disappointed.
Response to geek tragedy (Reply #15)
Post removed
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You seem to have the DKF position--agree with all Teahadist lies about the ACA such as the claim it has already failed--but of course you support single payer.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And then you play this silly game --
Ah, I see. So the only option left is to support corporate profits by force of law with no real expansion in access to medical care.
You must be a insurance corporation stockholder.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that the ACA has already been proven to be a failure?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)palatable. If the law was destined to be such a rousing success why would he lie?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He is a computer modeler. He did not draft the legislation.
Your true colors are showing.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)So what?
Wella
(1,827 posts)And did it come from HHS?
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)I am pissed off at the comment. How did such a politically tone deaf asshole get the position he had in the first place.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This has no substantive bearing on the law. This is a coordinated wingnut publicity scheme to grease the skids for the SCOTUS to gut the law.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You ought to question why you're pushing a Koch brothers-funded meme.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)The media basically serves as a daily platform for republican lies and propaganda.
ShadowLiberal
(2,237 posts)A lot of the things Gruber says in the videos are simply not true, such as his claim that it was vital the CBO score the mandate as a 'duty' and not a 'tax', and it scoring the mandate as a tax would kill the bill. That's simply wrong, no matter what the mandate was called it would still bring in the same amount of money when the CBO ran the numbers. Maybe politically it would be a tougher sell, but not with the CBO.
That's just 1 of many things he obviously gets flat out wrong.
Kingofalldems
(38,487 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Only Fox is carrying it.
Shrek
(3,984 posts)CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/14/politics/obamacare-voters-stupid-explainer/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.com/ronan-farrow-daily/watch/obamacare--the-gruber-effect-358422083955
Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/who-had-the-worst-week-in-washington-obamacare-consultant-jonathan-gruber/2014/11/13/87c7cafc-6b97-11e4-b053-65cea7903f2e_story.html
CBS:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-gop-anger-over-jonathan-grubers-obamacare-comments-is-justified/
ABC:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamacare-architect-jonathan-gruber-fire/story?id=26919286
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)And the CBS is linked to slate.
There is very little broadcast coverage otjer than the five.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)about it. It has even been mentioned on other TV shows this morning.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Woopsie.
Pisces
(5,602 posts)greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)But since it makes POTUS look bad a lot
here don't want to hear it.
What Gruber said said was insulting.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Exactly WHO did Gruber think was so stupid they had to be lied to? R Reps & Senators? Obviously not, since not a single one of them voted for it. The old white farts who showed up to protest at townhall meetings? Well, no, since they were against it from the start. The general public? Well, since a whole lot of them voted against Obama, who had been promising this sort of program, it must be more specific than that.
Must be he meant the D Reps & Sens, who actually voted for the bill. Must be he meant those of us who supported the bill all along, and those who voted Obama/Biden in 2008.
So, since he must have been specifically calling YOU stupid, how do you feel about his remarks now??
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)what the Cadillac tax was going to cost actual people, or did you buy the line about the employers paying it? Did you believe that "if you like your plan you can keep your plan," etc.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)and they continue to count on it, by making this into yet one more sham Red vs. Blue "battle" to distract us from the fact that both corporate parties wanted this thieving corporate system.
No WAY corporatists on either side will allow the mandate to be repealed; it is already skyrocketing insurance company profits beyond their wildest dreams. The insurance companies wrote the thing, and it was *designed* to entrench an exploitative, profit-sucking system of middlemen that keeps costs spiraling at the expense of human beings who need care. Look instead for more "loopholes" like the one the Obama administration *already* carved out in order to help the companies shift even more costs to patients.
If most people understood how it is rigged, and how much is being stolen, they would be outraged. The mandate was a corporate wet dream - it ensures that obscene levels of money that should be going to health care instead are given as a cut to these thieving health insurance middlemen. It ensures continued spiraling costs. And it ensures a continued motive to deny care for profit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025517310
Aetna Health Insurance will double Revenues to $100 billion by 2020 thanks to Obamacare
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014670789
ObamaCare Enriches The Health Insurance Giants and Their Shareholders
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2013/10/01/obamacare-enriches-only-the-health-insurance-giants-and-their-shareholders/
So far in 2013 the value of the S& P health insurance index has gained 43%. Thats more than double the gains made in the broad stock market index, the S & P 500. The shares of CIGNA are up 63%, Wellpoint 47% and United Healthcare 28%.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024970298
How bad is it?
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/june/medical-debt-a-curable-affliction-health-reform-won%E2%80%99t-fix
The high frequency of medical bankruptcy was often cited by advocates of health reform during the debate over the ACA. Yet the debate largely ignored the fact that most medical debtors actually have coverage. In order to protect Americans from bankruptcy, coverage must be truly comprehensive, that is, it must cover virtually 100 percent of all needed medical care. Unfortunately, the insurance policies mandated under ACA are required to cover only 60 percent of expected health-care costs.
56 MILLION Americans under age 65 will have trouble paying medical bills.
Over 35 MILLION American adults (ages 19-64) will be contacted by collections agencies for unpaid medical bills.
Nearly 17 MILLION American adults (ages 19-64) will receive a lower credit rating on account of their high medical bills.
Over 15 MILLION American adults (ages 19-64) will use up all their savings to pay medical bills.
Over 11 MILLION American adults (ages 19-64) will take on credit card debt to pay off their hospital bills.
Nearly 10 MILLION American adults (ages 19-64) will be unable to pay for basic necessities like rent, food, and heat due to their medical bills.
Over 16 MILLION children live in households struggling with medical bills.
Despite having year-round insurance coverage, 10 MILLION insured Americans ages 19-64 will face bills they are unable to pay.
1.7 MILLION Americans live in households that will declare bankruptcy due to their inability to pay their medical bills.
Three states will account for over one-quarter of those living in medical-related bankruptcy: California (248,002), Illinois (113,524), and Florida (99,780).
To save costs, over 25 MILLION adults (ages 19-64) will not take their prescription drugs as indicated, including skipping doses, taking less medicine than prescribed or delaying a refill.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Any *thing* that relied on private, for-profit corporations means only one thing: codified profiteering. Not markets, not efficiency, not cost-cutting. Just profiteering by force of law.
I'm just a stupid hick country girl. Certainly no match for the wits of a big city MIT economist -- but I know bullshit when I smell it.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Bullshit fumes only cover so much.
"Codified profiteering." What an absolutely perfect label for what has turned out to be the overarching agenda of this corrupt, purchased, bipartisan corporate government we have now.
The TPP and the TISA will be the best examples of Codified Profiteering yet.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I never supported ACA. Insurance is not health care. Never has been and never will be. Insurance companies take your money in exchange for zero, zip, nada.
I've have been, and continue to be, excoriated here for not supporting ACA. I don't care. The people who claim I want to take away the sick person's health care don't understand that they seem to want me living in the street to pay for somebody else's health care.
What I found most stunning -- and shows how incredibly out of touch some people are -- was the DUer who bragged about how ACA cut his health insurance costs by $20,000.
That year I barely made $20,000. And I know there are plenty on this board and elsewhere making less than that. And there was a DUer who clearly makes a *lot* of money to be saving more money on health insurance than we earn bragging because we will be forced to subsiding his savings.
I will pay the penalty this year. I will pay the penalty next year. Actually, now that I have read that the penalty is only imposed by withholding tax returns, and not in any other way, and I won't have a tax return because my per diem health care delivery job doesn't withhold my federal taxes so I end up owing...I won't even have to worry about the penalty for not paying the penalty. So I may simply not pay the penalty, after all
In which case I, personally, become neutral on ACA because I can still remain outside the scam that health insurance is.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Great post. Excellent. Thank you.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)The paternalistic attitude that liberals are playing the populace is really a right wing meme.
sendero
(28,552 posts).. by the likes of Gruber. As I have said, this guy should be ostracized from any political job, he is fucking ebola because of his big stupid mouth.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Surprised no one has done it.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... a shovel
ChazII
(6,206 posts)so I agree with you 100$%.
Rex
(65,616 posts)That and fear. Notice no more huge fear about ebola in the news? Elections over.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)doing to combat it? Nothing, I imagine.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)that kind of got debunked in a hurry.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)before we'll know what's in it? Why, she's a regular Dennis "That's because I read it" Kucinich!
Wonder how much Obama is even in touch with Reid and Pelosi post-midterm drubbing. He seems a lone wolf, by choice, and that hasn't proven good for the Democratic Party.
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)Everyone I know is getting good insurance because of the law.
Including me.
This latest anti-ACA story is brought to you by ALEC and anyone who feigns outrage over it is either a useless idiot or a willing participant in their quest to revoke insurance from millions of people.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Something tells me that this "scandal" was timed perfectly to delegitimize the ACA.
newblewtoo
(667 posts)this is the next to be trotted out.
It is a convenient way to keep your opponent on the defensive and drive a wedge between diverse groups. Think of the White Privilege threads here for example.
Of course lots of people seem to have dirty hands and sticky fingers:
http://my.firedoglake.com/fflambeau/2010/05/08/an-updated-list-of-goldman-sachs-ties-to-the-obama-admin-including-elena-kagan/
we are at a point were the best we can seem to say is my crooks are more clever than your crooks so it should be no surprise this tactic is being employed.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)How many post-mortems came down to, "well, if only voters weren't such mouth-breathers..."?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)that low-income conservative voters are stupid and consistently "vote against their own interests" (rather than even acknowledging the possibility that they see their interests differently than we do).
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Media do with it, the problem is the HE SAID IT! Now, what are WE going to do with the knowledge that our own party thinks we are stupid?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Stupid? Maybe, living in south Texas I have met more than my share of stupid Foxnews viewers. What I find most of them to be is ignorant of what their own party is doing. The GOP controls the flow of information, therefore they own the narrative.
Plus anyone that believes Obama is a Muslim agent or Marxist-Fascist puppet for the UN is a fucking idiot. And that makes up a large part of the GOP crowd.
Dems need to control the message and stop letting the M$M carry water for the GOP.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...and voted for Romney in last election?
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)What he has done is called fraud, and the damage he has done to the Democratic Party is incalculable. Premeditated, in cold blood. He defrauded not only the people as a whole, but all of the parties that paid him millions in contracts as well.
How many ugly parts of that bill did you swallow because you believed that Gruber's claims were true?
hughee99
(16,113 posts)If you pass a massive overhaul of the US health care system, and you make your decisions based on the advice of a single person, you should be booted out of office for gross incompetence.
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)perhaps even the one who came up with the idea
Ignoring the political end of things, that's a flat-out crime for which John Doe would be busted if he got $1000 for, and this guy walked off with millions!
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)And given the depth of the public record I would be confident, based on what we know now, that we can find the deceptions he created all over the place. This guy got millions to invent lies - lies which led directly to heavy Democratic losses two weeks ago.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)And from the other articles I've seen, he wasn't acting all on his own, nor were his employers ignorant to the flaws in his analysis. If you want to persue fraud charges, it's not going to all end up on him. As far as blaming HIM for Dem losses, he produced the PR the administration wanted, and the administration touted his findings. To suggest that they're not culpable in this is laughable. In the end, the ACA passed, and it's not going away any time soon.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)although the day after the midterm elections, a whole lot of DUers did.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)read and fully understand the Iraq War vote or did they just want war?
Did the GOP read and fully understand the Patriot Act?
The 2006 lame duck vote that is destroying our USPS re: Unreasonable Mandates for Retirement Funding?
I admit the learning curve in the Political World is challenging to me....but all I see here is Another "new" shiny toy to scare and distract from real issues. It's unfamiliar to the masses because "normally" pols on both sides vote everyday under the Same criteria-so yes, "they're" able to sell grubers comments as "OBAMAS Fault---look what the dictator is doing Now-Run" BS!
If we'd start, perhaps---seeing the decades old large picture...when was this scenario (grubers comments) Not the case no matter the party?