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Diagram of the scene:
This alone discredits Wilson's story.
http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/2c/92c14ae3-8c5f-59ef-938b-664d66feea96/5474c47232205.pdf.pdf
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Response to XemaSab (Original post)
Capt. Obvious This message was self-deleted by its author.
global1
(25,253 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)To me, it looks like the gun was fired twice near the car, then 10 times close to Brown. This would seem to indicate that Wilson followed Brown, then shot him at short range as there are ten shell casing near the body. According to the 12 second audio evidence that was presented, the ten shots were fix in two volleys, six, pause then 4. If he had shot at Brown from a distance, wouldn't the shell casings be further away from the body?
What am I missing here?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)not where the patrol vehicle was in relation to Brown. This would seem to be a duplicate of several threads from the past several days that somehow thought where the vehicle was stopped was some sort of all encompassing conclusive evidence.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)end up depending on a variety of reasons including some of the following, note this list is not intended to all inclusive: where the extractor grabs the case, the strength of the spring on the extractor, when the ejector ejects the empty case, the recoil of the handgun, the method of operation.
I'll go over two examples: a properly tuned 1911 set up for target shooting will usually eject the empty cases at the 3 o'clock position relative to the shooter and within a couple of feet; the second example is a Czech designed handgun, the CZ-52, which tosses the empty cases a good 25 feet back the the 5 o'clock position relative to the shooter. As an useless piece of trivia, Soviet bloc/Russian designs are notorious for sending the empty cases far from the shooter.
Additionally, it is probable that Brown stumbled/fell at least his own height in the last seconds.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)if shells are coming out at 3:00.
Apparently I've missed some details.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Here is a 32 page study: http://www.forcescience.org/articles/ShellCasingStudy.pdf
My takeaway from the study is not to read too much into where the shell casings are in the diagram and that anything in the 1:00 to 5:00 is entirely possible
csziggy
(34,136 posts)From his testimony: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2848749/Highlights-testimony-heard-grand-jury-declined-indict-Ferguson-cop-Darren-Wilson-Michael-Brown-shooting.html
Do you know what direction the shells are ejected from that model gun?
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Keep in mind their testing was done on sand and would not account for empty cases bouncing and rolling on pavement. I have 25+ years of competitive shooting experience and empty cases will tend to go in the same general direction based on a specific maker, model and caliber, but it is not an exact science as the link in my previous post explains.
If anything the diagram seems to support that Brown charged Wilson.
If you accept that evidence markers 19 & 20 as the farthest Brown got, those blood stains are either from the initial wounds from the struggle at the truck when Brown stopped and the blood had a chance to fall to the ground in sufficient amounts to be noticeable or wounds from the first group of six shots that Wilson fired.
The distance from evidence markers 19 & 20 to where Brown fell is about 35 feet, as best as one can tell from the diagram and the distance legend in the lower right corner. Based on the rather limited evidence from the autopsy that the Brown family had done, the two shots in the head are nearly straight up and down, which would also suggest a charging Brown. Of course that presumes that the autopsy that the Brown family had done was accurate and accurately reported in the press.
For Wilson to have stood over a kneeling Brown and executed him as some have alleged would have first required him to twist his wrist at an unusual angle and would have placed him close enough to have had blood, bone fragments and brain tissue on his hand, his uniform and the gun. The physical evidence does not appear to support that argument.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Fairies. I'm going with stupid though.
doc03
(35,346 posts)to go along with the diagram.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)he is the defendant, after all...
Why should, say Giuliani assume he is telling the truth and that the witnesses perjured themselves (as Giuliani insisted the night the testimony was released, as if he had inside information on the prosecutor's attitude? Giuliani insists that the prosecutor "showed great discretion in choosing not to instead prosecute those "unreliable" witnesses" i.e. black witnesses...)
doc03
(35,346 posts)accept the verdict?
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)He was guilty, of course.
doc03
(35,346 posts)screwed by the civil court but was glad they put him away.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)protect him. Experts say that if OJ had sliced Nicole's throat
he would be literally soaking and dripping in blood - yet there
were only tiny drops found later. His son, Jason, who was
to prepare a dinner for Nicole that evening (chef at restaurant)
was stood up by her. He had a crush on her and he also had
a history of violence.
Just sayin
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)It's not ours to "accept" this shit -- we have no control over what happens in this country. Everything's stage-managed by media and politicians for our benefit.
As legal experts noted, this grand jury was a show trial. If the prosecutor wanted to prosecute this case he would have sought an indictment. He didn't, so he couldn't have won even if he had been handed an indictment. He would have immediately pled Wilson out. The victim's family aren't allowed to hire a separate lawyer to cross-examine the defendant. Except in civil court of course. Where people have little recourse under our system, especially against officers of the government.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)It's not like Wilson was shooting calming using a rifle with a scope. And to hit him multiple times?
Frankly, I still don't understand where they both were, but this doesn't look right.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)but the shell casings seem to show that he was very close - if this is an accurate diagram.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)which would indicate that he was backing away from a perceived threat, but I'm not sure how that is determined.
This may be a stupid question, but can you match a shell casing to an individual shot?
Darb
(2,807 posts)Are you saying with regard to this crime scene photo? Because nothing there says "backing up" to me, it says chasing down.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)bits here and there
Darb
(2,807 posts)The testimony is suspect at best, especially Wilson's. It is a mountain of schooled propaganda aimed to convince the racist mind.
Darb
(2,807 posts)The altercation started at the car and ended 150 away? At what point did Brown charge him? How about this, Brown charged him out of desperation because the cop was out to kill him and was chasing him down and shooting him?
Seriously, those casings don't fly that far. I am no expert but maybe, maybe 10 feet. Is Wilson right handed, with the casings exiting out to the right? Or left handed?
And take a look at those sandals, I am guessing he lost those while running AWAY from Wilson. Then even further away, well past where he lost his sandals, Brown is gunned down.
This looks nothing like what I had pictured the scene to look like. How the fuck did he get so far away from the car and initial altercation? He ran, that's how. Wilson chased him and killed him.
Rex
(65,616 posts)not unless it was 3 feet away and 150 feet away from the first 2 shots.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Didn't make it, unfortunately. Wilson followed him at least, but if Brown was running away, then Wilson was chasing him. Bad decision to let him off the hook.
Rex
(65,616 posts)for the bullets casing to be there. Also agree, horrible act of injustice but most of us saw it coming a mile away.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)He says they validate Wilson's claim that he fired away as he backed away from the charging barefoot Mike Brown. The evidence also says that it's impossible to tell which casing from which bullet, which means that the evidence also supports the witnesses who say that WIlson advanced, firing, on Brown.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)
If nothing else, Wilson was a very, very panic-y shooter
Darb
(2,807 posts)murdered him.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Two shots fired in the car (3, 4), Brown is hit and bleeds onto the outside of the car (8,9).
Brown flees, Wilson follows.
Brown turns, Wilson fires again (13, 14, 15, 16, 18; bloodstains 19, 20)
Brown advances, Wilson retreats and fires again (10, 11, 12, 22, 21)
Not proof that Wilson is telling the truth, but consistent with what he says, isn't it?
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)But when you have two months to build your narrative it's quite easy to make it fit the evidence.
By the same token, Brown could've been pleading for his life crying and the same evidence we see here could fit. I'm not saying that's what happened. I do think there was a scuffle. But I suspect Wilson had plenty of opportunity to deescalate. Over a hundred feet of opportunity.
What it does show incontrovertibly is that Wilson chased an unarmed Brown down, for many feet, and killed him.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He just seems to have done a decent job of that for what happened outside of the car. The story about inside of the car (which cannot be forensically verified) is what makes no rational sense at all, and sets up what happened outside.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Wilson calls Brown over, because he's a cop and cops profile blacks. Brown is agitated because he's probably stopped on a weekly basis anyway. Walks over, cop starts to get out, Brown pushes the door back so he can make a run for it, Wilson grabs his arm. Brown pulls away, flailing, hitting Wilson in the face. Wilson pulls his gun because obviously the first thing cops ever do is grab their gun. Brown grabs the gun to defend himself from being killed. Gun goes off. Brown then books it down the street.
Wilson takes chase. Brown, an unarmed black teenager, is now running. Wilson tells him to stop, he'll shoot, whatever. Brown stops, turns around, and starts walking toward Wilson. The evidence shows that Wilson didn't just get out of his car, Wilson gave chase.
What does it for me is that 1) there was a delay when the first shots rang out and the second set of shots rang out. I refuse to believe Wilson would've ran toward Brown like is claimed. It is patently absurd. 2) Wilson didn't attempt at any point to deescalate the situation.
I think the "grabbing the waistband" part is a lie and I think the "Brown started hitting me for no reason" part is a lie and I think the "Brown charged me like a madman" part is a lie. And I think a sane prosecutor would've seen that. Those are three details that don't make any sense whatsoever.
If I was the prosecutor I would've boiled it down to a simple thing, Wilson didn't want Brown to "get away" and executing Brown was the course of action he took.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)As far as I understand the case is still "open" so hopefully they get a proper prosecutor and fire that guy and bring Wilson back to actually have a trial where he'd be compelled to face a cross-examination. Wilson's public statements should be usable at trial now.
sarisataka
(18,663 posts)The shots in the car, casings 3&4.
Wilson claims the gun had a stovepipe jam, which would make sense if to fired while a person had a grip on the slide. He cleared that jam and fired again. So far so good.
Now the problem with the scene. I can see the second casing ejecting outside of the car but not very far. #3 appears 5-10 feet from the window. A bit of a stretch but if it ricocheted off Mr. Brown, it is possible.
The case that jammed however should be inside the vehicle. It is already clear of the extractor so basically just falls away. Now it is remotely possible that case was on Wilson's clothes and could have been carried outside of the car. Again #3 could conceivably account for this situation.
Unfortunately in our world one casing cannot be both. #3 is either the second shot (most likely) or the first jammed casing(less likely)
#4 appears to be 15-20 feet away and if both shots were fired from inside the vehicle, as is testified, can only be accounted for by some strange combination of unlikely events.
To have both casings end up outside of the vehicle, one very very far away, stretches plausibility into the realm of fiction.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)was by the car and Wilson was inside it.
As Ezra Klein said, this is exactly the kind of mysterious shit that a trial is supposed to figure out.
Darb
(2,807 posts)there was and altercation, but a black kid deciding to try to take a gun from a cop is utter bullshit. During that initial altercation, Wilson drew his weapon and probably wounded Brown. Brown runs down the street.
Wilson then shot at Brown as he was running away, chasing him all the while, and missing of course. Not to mention how fucking stupid it is for Wilson to be shooting in a residential area, but none the less he is, chasing Brown and shooting at the same time. Then Brown stops running, only to be met with more shots, he might have charged at that point, but probably out of fear of death. Wilson was determined to shoot him down.
And he did.
Wilson fucked up. But that is the way some cops roll, especially in certain areas.
Wilson is free, Brown is dead.