To the childfree: counting on children growing up and paying into your SS and Medicare?

[CreekDog]

I am. So I think we all have to contribute to making sure children have what they need to grow up, learn and contribute to society as adults.

It takes a village, right? We are all part of the village.

Now I'm wondering about those that don't want to help children by helping the families that raise them (and having children means you're more more likely to be poor yourself).

If you plan to take Social Security and Medicare, today's children will likely be paying for that.

Let's not begrudge tax support to children if you plan to get tax support in your life from those same children.

Village remember?

(i updated this since my first version was too cryptic)

[Warpy]

1. Excuse me?

Are you really accusing people without children as shirking their civic duty?

Are you trying to suggest that people without children who have paid into Social Security all their lives, even paying survivor benefits to other people's children, are somehow unfit to receive the benefits?

You'd better reconsider that post very carefully. It looks pretty ugly to me.

[hlthe2b]

2. I agree with you that the offending post, was just that...

(to which you referred in a previous META thread)

But, heavens, lets not splinter the haves and have nots (in terms of children)....

Children are "man and woman-kinds'" future--whether one is the parent or not....

[cpamomfromtexas]

3. I understood your post and you make valid points.

[MNBrewer]

4. As long as they stay out of my yard I'm happy to support their education, etc. through tax money

But stay out of my yard!!!

[MattBaggins]

36. But your grass is so much greener

What is your secret? Bat guano?

[MNBrewer]

43. Bone meal

don't ask where I get it.

[LongTomH]

5. I don't have children of my own...

...but, my late sweeheart Jeanne had two beautiful, bright grandchildren, and I'm very fond of the children of my friends. We all need to consider them as our future, not just for the contribution they might make to maintaining us in old age.

[robinlynne]

6. Actualy, not having children is probably one of the best things anyone can do for society.

The planet does not have enough resources for continued population growth. NOT having children is one good way to help sustainability.

[stuntcat]

13. also now's time for people to be honest about the next 90 years before giving it to innocent babies.

yah, but my view's considered "radical"

[BlancheSplanchnik]

24. Thank You!! Assuming that having children is a "personal choice"

that MUST NOT be challenged ...... or that it's the biological demand that cannot be avoided....or that it's sweet or romantic or needed to keep "the species" going....These presumptions are selfish. Ignorant. Self-destructive.

I interpreted a class on Tropical Ecology for a semester, and let me tell you, I left EVERY class choking back tears. Human overpopulation is exterminating the rest of the planet.

We have the higher intellectual faculty to see and transform our baser instincts....if we don't start admitting that the ultimate selfish act now is to bear children. At LEAST we need to limit ourselves to two or less.


If you want to get banned, propose that having children is selfish!!! People go offff. the. HOOK.

In fact, I wonder what will happen to this post!!

[robinlynne]

29. I agree. Actually most scientists agree. and economists. and all people interested in

conserving this planet.

[stuntcat]

34. I have a button that says "Not selfish enough to have children" :D

Once on my way home from an environmental march in DC a friend of my in-laws' caught me getting off the bus and saw the button then started a big fight with me about not making them grandchildren. Now he's invited to their big Thanksgiving meal each year while I, their son's wife stay home alone. I know they thanked him for what he told me, the feelings they've been quiet about since my husband told them not to pressure me. Now things have gotten so bad with them that in January his mother told me I should be dead. There was no joke and I even repeated her words to her clearly so she could nod Yeah! She said it in front of her husband too and he didn't do a thing for me. I'm ruining their lives by not having a baby and they are going to make sure I pay. But I would die before giving the rest of this century to my baby, I especially wouldn't take the chance of it being a girl. She'd know by the time she was my age that I saw what was coming when I made her. I'm already heartbroken by the extinctions, why make a new girl to give this to?

I'm just glad for the internet so I can meet so many childfree people, I don't know how I'd make it dealing with my inlaws' hate by myself.

[eShirl]

38. For what it's worth, I understand completely.

We're not alone.

[stuntcat]

42. I hope..

hope you know what that means to me. It's gotten harder and harder since we moved near them. And now since that night in January I've gone over the edge.
Thanks to the internet I am NOT alone. Also my mom and aunts are with me on this but they're all so far away I have the internet to thank for their support too lol.
Thank you!

[LadyHawkAZ]

7. I don't mind helping the average family with children

I mind helping multiple families with 7 or 8 children, and then being told the state is too poor and must cut education budgets- again- while the church that's responsible for this quiver-full mess sits on billions of tax-free dollars right smack in the middle of downtown. See my problem? The rest of the village needs to do its share too.

[robinlynne]

8. I hope to have social security and medicare. I paid for them all of my life, with work.

[CreekDog]

9. no you haven't

your benefits will cover only a portion of the money you are likely to need.

today's children will be helping to pay for your benefits then.

we are all in this together.

i argue with people who say they can do it on their own --nobody does it all on their own. that's delusional.

[snagglepuss]

18. Your OP is offensive. I don't have kids but I don't begrudge my taxes

paying for schools, libraries, playgrounds etc

[CreekDog]

19. then it wasn't aimed at you

[robinlynne]

28. I am only going to receive 700 per month if I can retire. That will not pay rent, much

less food. So yes I will need a bunch more, but who exactly is going to pay for this "more"?

[CreekDog]

33. Who? A little bit paid by lots and lots of different people

some who are rich, some who are middle class and some who simply won't be able to afford it but payroll taxes are paid by nearly everyone, so they won't be able to avoid it.

with that in mind, i think a good rule of thumb is to not chide people that have less than you for getting what appears to be a bigger tax refund than others AND to never say one is only taking what they paid for themselves, because that's also not true. none of us does it all on our own.

as you can tell, i'm quite adamant about this philosophy as well as the idea that all contribute to a society that makes sure all are given what they need.

the Republicans say you can get it all yourself and you're on your own, and Democrats say we're in it together and when we're down, we need to help each other up because that makes us all stronger. when someone says they created all they have or will have, they are talking like Ayn Rand or Republicans.

[Whisp]

27. but that work was able because you stand on the shoulders of giants before you.

[robinlynne]

30. yes. we are all linked. That is not a reason to continue to overpopulate the world. There are not

enough resources in the planet for continued population growth. It is NOT a good thing.
Children are wonderful. Don't get me wrong.

[panopeagenerosa]

10. Japan..

Is dealing with that 'problem' with automation. We could deal with it through legalizing illegal immigrants so they are paid a living wage and taxed accordingly (most of them already pay taxes but won't benefit from them because...they're here illegally). Of course the country would tan better in the summer and that scares some people. There are many children and young adults in this world who would love to come to America, why not adopt one? Is there really something special about your DNA but you don't want to risk bringing a miniyou into a dying world? So put a chunk of flesh in the freezer so 'they' can clone you (or make a sperm cell from a skin cell) and sponsor some immigrants. North America is dangerously underpopulated.

[Ruby the Liberal]

12. Underpopulated?

Sorry - not following you here.

Can you elaborate?

[CreekDog]

14. welcome

[zorahopkins]

11. I Have Made My Cremation Plans.

I have already made plans for my cremation.

And I have purchased an urn. That's where my ashes will go.

I think it is better to be prepared to die.

I cannot count on Medicare and Social Security being there for me.

I just hope that I have an easy and painless death.

And, for what it's worth, I think bringing children into this world is not such a good idea.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

32. +1000 n/t

[REP]

15. Your argument isn't with all the Childfree; it's with a few posters

Paying taxes for roads, bridges, yes even national defense and to help those who need help is part of being a citizen in a civilized society and I don't begrudge paying an ENORMOUS amount each year. I like to imagine we're feeding people with the check we send in, not paying for more fucking bombs and death.

That doesn't mean each year, when I know I'm paying more in dollars than Exxon does in taxes, that I don't feel a little resentful. Some resent tax breaks they see their annoying neighbors get; I resent the ones asshole corporations get.

Eyes on the prize, people. We're all in this together. Childfree and parents aren't the enemies; it's Us vs Corporate Leeches.

[CreekDog]

17. that's true...i only quarrel with those who would scapegoat children for their own tax status

[REP]

20. I feel you

I think the OP of the OP in question is either obliviously provocative or - well, I don't want to play linguist on the Internet, but whatever the goal of that ONE person, that post did give a few people a place to vent (on both artificial "sides&quot on a touchy issue. It's like we all itch but don't know exactly where to scratch, and that was a spot close enough to feel good.

I think you and I share the same goals - I've just seen so much of this CF vs P war being rekindled everywhere it made me remember Chomsky, and that we must be being distracted from something again, some more

[robinlynne]

31. what are you talking about? the tea party? We all support public education.

[former9thward]

21. I don't think you are paying more than 73 billion.

That is what the Washington Post says Exxon paid in all taxes in the last five years. http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/how-much-do-oil-companies-really-pay-in-taxes/2011/05/11/AF7UNutG_story.html

[REP]

22. As a percentage, then.

I'm exceedingly sorry that I didn't have the numbers in front of me. Your forgiveness.

[MattBaggins]

37. I do though agree with posters who point out

in particular the unfair fact that same sex couples are arguably punished by the system in place.

Health, tax and survivor benefits are not fair for them.

[Coyote_Bandit]

16. We are not all part of the village

People choose to leave - and we exclude people all the time.

Personally, I do not think Social Security or Medicare will be available to me in any meaningful way. I expect to have to fend for myself.

That said, I do not mind paying property taxes to fund primary public education.

[bvar22]

23. I have a better plan than contributing to the overpopulation crisis.

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 01:18 PM - Edit history (1)

*Cut Military Spending by 75%

*End "Free Trade" and "Free Market" NeoLiberalism.

*Bring back manufacturing and good paying JOBS to America through the same policies that worked for FDR.

*Return to the sane tax rates of the 60s

*Dust off the Sherman Anti-Trust Act,
bust up the Big Boxes,
return commerce to local owners

*Make Corporations Pay their fair share.
Do a "Sarah Palin" on the Energy Corporations
(While Governor, Palin RAISED TAXES on the Oil Corporations,
and used those funds to balance the budget
AND send a check to every Alaskan)

*Close up the loop holes.

*Use these funds for MASSIVE, MASSIVE, Good Paying w/ benefits Construction, Training, Conservation,
Environment and Beautification, JOBS Programs.

*De-couple Health Insurance from the employer by opening eligibility to MediCare for All.
(Gets the Health Insurance burden off the backs of employers,
and frees employees to search for better jobs without FEAR.

*Make EFCA "The Law of the Land."

*Regulate Interstate Trade.

*End the race to the bottom by ending Sweetheart tax Deals for corporations to relocate in a permissive state.
(One Corporate tax Policy for Every State)

*Free Universal Education through Graduate levels for anyone who wants it and can keep up,
with a 2 year public service commitment.


*And FINALLY,
Liberalize our immigration policy so that immigrants can legally work at all the good paying jobs in the Full Employment & Expanding Jobs Market created by the above policies,
and let THEM pay my Social Security.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
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[MattBaggins]

39. Let's do it a more direct way

Increase military spending... Wars decrease population
Lift taxes and regulations on tobacco
Stop medicare and medicaid
Stop spending on medical research
Get rid of the EPA/FDA/OSHA/NIH


Wait a minute.. Where have I heard this plan before?

[AnnieBW]

25. I'm Child-Free, But I Don't Mind Helping Children

In fact, my husband and I buy for at least two kids for the "Angel Tree" each year. Yeah, I know that it's Salvation Army, but the toys and clothes are going directly to the kids. In fact, hubby and I are considering adopting an older child that's in foster care.

Many people are child-free by chance, or they can't afford to go through all of the fertility treatments/IVF stuff that's not covered by insurance. Or, they don't want to pass on a genetic problem to their offspring. Unfortunately, some people who SHOULD be taken out of the gene pool reproduce enough for us.

[Whisp]

26. or maybe being educated enough to find some new goodies for us?

whether it be related to health or leisure or whatever.

some may begrudge edumacation, maybe they should be schooled better themselves on how a society thrives.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

35. Not everyone CHOOSES to be childfree.

Your post makes you sound like one of those quiverfull asshats who want us all to have 20 kids and put a DRAIN on society.
Due to health problems, we will have no children of our own. Next time you think you need to weigh in on someone having babies or not, go to Freeperville. They'll appreciate your ugliness much more than we do here. I'm offended simply because it seems like you think we all need to be baby factories in order to contribute to society, and that is ignorant, freeper logic and I think it is rude. Also, it takes a LOT to offend me, but this is one of those subjects.
Edit to include that we have nieces and nephews that we will help through anything and will be foster parents, but that's really none of your business.

[MattBaggins]

40. The OP wasn't pointing to people in your case

They were talking to those that see families getting the EIC deduction as a personal attack on them for not having children. Some people, even right here on DU will foam at the mouth at how awful it is that low income families receive help this way.

Many people think that overpopulation should be addressed by financially punishing poor people so that having children should only be affordable for rich people I suppose. Some of us wonder how this is any different than Ryan and his silly plans. Let's take away TANF, CHIP, public education and other programs as well since that would really put good pressure on people not to have babies and has the bonus of putting that pressure on scummy(poor) people which in turn cleans up the gene pool. [sarcasm warning for the impaired]

[Rex]

41. I will never have children, yet I gladly pay school taxes

because I am a progressive and want a better future for our children.

PERIOD.

Anyone else want to argue with that?