How much is the tax on one cigarette in NY city?

[notadmblnd]

[Agschmid]

1. $5.85 per pack.

But that's not what this is about.

[yeoman6987]

5. Your right not the issue,

But if they were affordable selling them wouldn't happen either. Why not have a reasonable tax on them?

[sharp_stick]

12. Because they're deadly

and high taxes has been shown to be an effective way to deter people from starting the habit.

[sabrina 1]

14. Lots of things are deadly to SOME people. Just as cigarettes are deadly to SOME people.

Should people DIE because they make personal choices that the government doesn't like?

[Agschmid]

19. That's not what the person was saying and you know it.

[sabrina 1]

28. The person said that the government has the right to punish citizens with 'sin taxes' for

having the audacity to make personal choices that the government has decided are 'deadly' to them.

I know people who have smoked all their lives and are healthier than many who have never smoked. I know people who grew up in smoke filled homes and have no health issues at all.

I also know people who since childhood, lived on a diet of sugar, coke, fast food, and have diabetes in their 30s.

So where does the government draw the line at 'punishing' citizens who engage in behavior the government has decided is 'deadly'? It would be more accurate to say 'potentially' deadly. But even then, people engage in potentially deadly behaviors all the time. How about Flying, Mountain Climbing, Skate Boarding, Skiiing? All potentially dangerous activities.

How about driving? Driving is deadly, it was deadly to someone very close to me. Should we try to discourage people engaging in that 'deadly' behavior because for some people it has been deadly?

I think the person can speak for themselves btw.

[whatthehey]

31. What else is deadly to 450K per year, 55k who choose not to do it, in the US alone?

Driving, obesity, alcohol added together are a fraction of that and a tiny tiny fraction applied to those who abjure from them.

And those numbers are from an activity which <20% engage in. The number who drive, drink or are obese is several times higher.

[joeglow3]

77. I bet obesity is just as, if not more, deadly

[BlueCaliDem]

34. I agree. Cigarettes are deadly to SOME people. My father smoked since he was seven years young.

He was in a Japanese concentration camp and smoking helped stop the hunger pangs. All throughout his life, he's never stopped smoking, but it was sodium in his food that eventually gave him high blood pressure and extreme stress from his second wife and her obnoxious children that gave him the brain aneurysm that ruptured and made him a paraplegic with half of one lung collapsed.

When I went to the hospital with him for his bi-annual checkup and they heard that he smoked, they immediately scheduled an appointment for X-rays of his lungs. I can still remember the shocked looks on the three radiologists' faces. They didn't believe the results so my father had to have another X-ray done. I asked why, and the leading X-ray radiologist told me that my father had the lungs of a twenty-eight year old and that couldn't be right. After the second session, though, they had to accept the results and they shook their heads in wonderment that, yes indeedy, he had the lungs of a twenty-eight year old - and he was fifty-nine at the time.

With five children, both of my parents smoked so heavily that we used to joke as kids that when we walked into the living room we were going to London (smoke-filled room looked like the heavy mist London is known for). We grew up in a smoke-filled environment, but none of us have suffered any second-hand smoke while only two of the five took up smoking in our adult years (I'm one of them).

[sharp_stick]

38. Nice to be lucky

I remember a lady when I was in med school. 34 years old, dying of lung cancer and never smoked a day in her life. Her parents though, smoked a pack a day each while she was growing up. I think they wish they had never started.

[sabrina 1]

40. Good post, thank you. I am sorry about your dad though. Not at all surprised at the reaction

of the medical staff. Indoctrination trumps common sense every time. And because know people who have suffered no negative effects from smoking, logical people reject the scare tactics being used to start yet another version of the Drug War.

Sad to see people falling it though, especially here.

The two people I have known who died of lung cancer, one was a young mother, never smoked. The other owed a beauty salon where he was exposed to many chemicals in the sprays he used there every day. I don't know for sure if that caused the cancer, but it is very likely. Both tragic as they left young children behind.

[hughee99]

44. If the government REALLY wanted to prevent people from smoking (or drinking, or whatever)

they'd outlaw it. Sin taxes are great ways to generate revenue and they are usually easier to pass because it's an easier sell to the people who don't commit whatever "sin" is being taxed. The real goal has NEVER been to discourage use, that's just how they sell you the tax. The goal is always been to generate tax revenue.

[sabrina 1]

49. That's all the Drug War was about also, to generate billions, maybe trillions of dollars

in revenue AND as an excuse to take away people's Constitutional Rights. IF the Government wanted to end drug use, they have done what has been proven to be far more successful, spend all that money on TREATMENT and prevention etc.

And all these 'wars' become tools for racists. You would think that people who have witnessed the horrendous devastation of the phony, racist drug war would be very, very cautious about starting another one.

[sharp_stick]

32. Cigarettes are deadly to

all people including the kids that have to live with an adult smoking them.

He didn't die because the Government taxed smokes. That's got to be the most pathetic RW argument for cop killing I've ever heard, they're even laughing at that shit on Rush. He died because a cop used a banned chokehold in a situation that didn't require it.

Should people DIE because they make personal choices the Government doesn't like?
It fits just as well as the lady that was killed by a drunk driver while she was pulled over to the side for speeding. Damnit why does the Government enforce speeding laws, they got her killed.

[sabrina 1]

47. Why were the police there? What was the arrest for?

And no, cigarettes are NOT deadly to most people. This kind of hyperbole is why the anti-smoking crowd have little credibility with most people. I know dozens of people who have smoked all their lives and lived healthy lives until their old age.

I know even more who lived in smoke filled homes and more healthy than those who ate sugar all their lives. When you make irrational statements like that, when people KNOW they are not true, you are not going to be taken seriously.

The assault on cigarette smokers along with the false propaganda that has gone along it, is for one reason only, to get another 'drug war' going, for profit, because it sure isn't because the government actually CARES about people's well being, which the phony, racist drug war has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And this cigarette 'war' will be same racist war for profit, IF people allow it, which I hope they will not.

This tragic death is proof of the deadly nature of these 'wars' on people's personal choices can be. Especially on the lives of African Americans. As the fake, Drug War has demonstrated.

[sharp_stick]

52. It wasn't an arrest

it was speeding. They had her pulled over to give her a ticket. Drunk slammed into the back of the police car, drove him into her car and she died.

Cigarette smokers account for 18% of the US population as of 2013 so I think most people aren't on your side and I'd like to find an actual doctor, especially an oncologist or respirologist that considers it hyperbole.

Then again that's just science, easy to discount when grandpa managed to wheeze out 98 years.

[sabrina 1]

58. ??? I am talking about the murder of Eric Garner. Why were the police there in the first place?

His death was ruled a homicide by the coroner's office.

What was he supposedly doing that caused the police to try to arrest him?

[sharp_stick]

65. Ah fuck it

I was referring to this:
Should people DIE because they make personal choices the Government doesn't like?
It fits just as well as the lady that was killed by a drunk driver while she was pulled over to the side for speeding. Damnit why does the Government enforce speeding laws, they got her killed.

Yes, Mr. Garner would be well and happy if only we lived in a libertarian land of wheee where nothing is taxed and you can continue to kill your family off with cancer sticks as you see fit.

I see your thoughts on urban police enforcement are about as well researched as your knowledge on the dangers and costs of tobacco.

This is why the police were there.

The police will find a reason to interact with someone they want to interact with. There are many loosie sellers all over the place, the cops don't kill them all, in fact I think this is quite possibly the first of it's kind. But hey lets blame the city for taxing cigarettes and forcing him onto the street to sell them. Most cops don't kill the dummies selling Rolax watches and Pradah handbags in Battery park or badly taped DVD's in Chinatown. If the cops figure you're a pain in the ass and they want you off the street you'll be suspected of vagrancy or loitering. The chances of that happening tend to be one hell of a lot higher if you're a black guy which is the reason he died.

[sabrina 1]

67. No one I know has died from smoking or from being around smokers. Again with the hyperbole

to justify another oppressive 'drug war.' which airc, was brought to us by RIGHT WINGERS. And gave the cops a reason to target minorities, as ever Liberal at least, KNOWS.

They don't need any more 'laws' to help them target minorities, but here in NYS they now have yet more weapons to justify the killing of this man. 'See, he was violating the LAW! I've seen it already, right here on DU in fact.

If Garner lived in a FREE country with fewer LAWS that are designed to target the poor and minorities, he would be alive and well, smoking his cigarette if he chose to do so and the cops would not have had a reason to murder him.

It never fails to amaze me that there are actually Liberals who support passing laws to control BEHAVIOR. That they fail to see the danger of this. Even AFTER their long opposition to Reagan's Drug Law. It's not like we don't have an example of the danger of trying to legislate BEHAVIOR.

[sharp_stick]

68. I hope your luck holds out

but I'll keep my faith in medicine and you keep your head in the sand. TTFN

On edit: I've seen what smoking can do a body, I've held a lung from a long time smoker who died suffocating because he couldn't breath anymore. As a medical student I watched an oncologist tell a 34 year old woman she was going to die of lung cancer even though she never smoked a single cigarette, her parents did. Because of that I present some obvious liberal lies in the land of the libertarian righteous.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/

[sabrina 1]

69. And I've seen firsthand what a car can do a body after someone I loved more than

anything, was struck and killed on the way home.

Why are cars legal? They are deadly every year to tens of thousands of people, they are responsible for disabling thousands more people for life.

Here's the problem people have with the pretext that the Government actually cares about the well being of its citizens by passing laws that produce revenue and take away people's actual freedom.

There are so many personal choices people make that are risky to their own health and to others. Yet people are ENCOURAGED to engage in them. So when they make outrageous claims about one of those risky behaviors, that EVERYONE is going to die when the facts tell us something different, and we know there is an agenda, that bullying and punishing people doesn't stop them, see the Drug War eg, how many people die of drugs every year, STILL? Or of murder related to drug crimes? there is little crediblity attached to the government's pretended 'solution' to these problems

If concern or people's well being was the issue, treatment and education are known to work far better than punishment and laws.

[Agschmid]

87. Your credibility is shot.

My grandfather died as a direct result of smoking and the effects it had on him. Terminal lung failure due to the side effects of smoking.

Now you know someone who has actually felt the damage that cigarettes can cause.

Maybe you'll drop the act now. Your posts are hurtful to me, it's PROVEN that cigarettes damage lung tissue... That's irrefutable and I was personally effected.

This isn't the issue that really we should even be discussing but it's certainly where it's gone.

Ugh.

[sabrina 1]

89. What I know is that SOME people are harmed by many things that other people, a majority actually are

not harmed by.

The person I most loved was killed by an AUTOMOBILE. Cars are a dangerous threat to human life.

But I didn't run around trying to bully people into not driving, adults know the dangers of driving, they know the dangers of SUGAR and of Alcohol. If they choose to take the risk anyhow, if they choose to live on a Fast Food, Sugar infested diet eg, it isn't my business and I won't bully them by demanding LAWS to stop them from killing themselves, because this is supposed to be a free society. But there are people who do not LIKE the freedom others have to do things they have had a tragic experience with, or just don't like for whatever reason, and they are more of a threat to this society than all the risky behaviors people choose to engage in.

Since we are getting down to using emotional manipulation now, I also have a friend who is YOUNG but has lived on a diet of Sugar, Coke, Fast Foods, candy etc all her life. She has just been told that she is on the brink of diabetes.

The corrupt Sugar manufacturers have lied, paid millions to suppress the effects of sugar on the population for years. She knows it and now it's up to her but I would never, ever try to get laws passed to CRIMINALIZE her personal choices.

My credibility is just fine, I'm definitely not one bit worried about, never have been.

It is those who use fear and hyperbole to bully people with laws and rules against stuff THEY don't like whose credibility is increasingly being questioned.

Don't smoke if you don't want to. Don't eat sugar if you don't want to. Don't drink if you don't want to and DON'T place yourself in a position to tell other, grown, intelligent people what choices THEY ought to make.

[Agschmid]

95. They aren't that intelligent if they are making those choices.

[sabrina 1]

109. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But that's all it is, one person's judgemental

opinion of the intelligence of other people. And THAT illustrates my point better than anything else said here. People who put themselves on a pedestal, (I'm sure YOU don't engage in any risky behavior because people who judge others would never do so unless they themselves were completely pure and 'intelligent' about all of their own choices) from which they judge the 'little people' down below.

Nearly every person in this country is doing something that is harmful to their health. The are adults, their business, not the government's.

I wonder why you are only concerned about one of those choices though and why you think you can beat people over the head, now we see it happened literally, to 'control' those people.

Either we attach extortionist taxes to ever risky choice or it is clear that it is a few people trying to profit from one of those choices causing great harm to the very people they claim to 'care about'.

[Agschmid]

112. I engage in all kinds of risky behavior everyday...

But at least I don't pretend it has no risk.

[sabrina 1]

113. And who said there is 'NO RISK' for those who smoke? A correction was made to the claim

everyone who smokes is DEAD. That is a false statement and it was corrected.

Slapping extortionist taxes on only one of the risky behaviors people engage in every year, under the pretext of 'caring' about those same people, should be resisted by anyone who calls themselves a Liberal.

When the government lies to the people for the purpose of extorting money and passing BAD LAWS, it is the duty of the people to stop them.

I have not been involved in any attempt to rescind NYS's extortionist tax which has driven the poor and poor working class to try to find ways to avoid what they cannot afford, resulting in the death by cop of Eric Garner, but now I believe it is time to do so.

And btw, never assume that because someone opposes bad laws they themselves are smokers or drug users. I have opposed the Drug War also, though never used drugs. Because I know the obviously bad effects of drugs is easy to use to get those awful, harmful laws passed.

[Agschmid]

116. You win.

[snappyturtle]

101. Thank you. I've read your replies and agree that the gov't isn't all

that interested in our general well being. If really concerned they would close bars....oh,oh I forget we have DUI laws and lots of revenue comes from that plus alcohol taxes. It really is all about money....and behavior control. i'm not going to be sympathetic when a new demon is earmarked by the gov't for heavy taxation since most can't see the bigger picture.

[Travis_0004]

33. they also encourage smuggling.

[sharp_stick]

36. Sure they do

All taxes encourage smuggling, cheating and larceny. It's a cost/benefit that's weighted into the process.

In this case public health studies have shown that high taxes do more to reduce smoking start than the cost of smuggling takes away. That taken into account with the huge money injection that cities love to see from sin taxes made it palatable.

[Eleanors38]

104. So deadly 1/2 of NYC cig sales are now rum-runs.

Alternative spelling for "prohibition:"

H-i-g-h-t-a-x-e-s.

[sabrina 1]

11. Why were police interested in this? Who sent them out to arrest someone for, allegedly, he denied

it, cheating the state out of what would amount to about 30c per cigarette?

That is why they were there, isn't it? To teach anyone who might be getting away with a few cents in cigarette taxes that they better think twice about it?

So yes, it is what this about, it is what caused a gang of POs to kill Garner. For a few lousy cents, or dollars at most.

Stop these 'wars' on the choices adults have a right to make. Or are you FOR creating yet another disastrous 'drug war' because that is the goal of the 'war on cigarettes'.

[Agschmid]

17. You got all that out of my post?

I think the issue here is racism, plain and simple.

[sabrina 1]

37. Yes, it is racism. The racist Drug War has allowed racist cops to target, disproportionately,

African Americans. Now they are starting another 'war' that will allow them to target even more African Americans.

If people want to smoke, or engage in any other potentially harmful, to THEM, personal behaviors, that is their choice, as ADULTS. We are now promoting that the Government decide to 'punish' US Citizens for engaging in, 'behaviors selected by the government' that are potentially dangerous. Or at least that is the excuse. If anyone thinks the government actually cares about their well being, they no doubt also believe in Santa Claus.

Leave people alone, as Garner said. 'Just leave me alone'. Had his rights as a citizen been respected, he would be alive today. But the government decided that cigarettes, out of all the other potentially deadly behaviors people engage in, is the one they are going to 'punish' people for. The huge tax on cigarettes is designed to lure people into engaging in 'illegal' behavior, not just potentially harmful, but now illegal, behaviors. And we have just seen an example of what is to come if it continues.

[KamaAina]

114. So less than 30 cents per ciggie.

A man was killed over 29 cents.

[SoCalDem]

2. When Mr Garner bought the pack, HE paid the tax

He was well-known...friends with...most of the people he came into contact with..

A friend comes up to him and asks him for a cigarette for 50 cents.. They are entirely too expensive to give away these days, so why not sell him one..The guy cannot afford a pack, and asks a pal to sell him one or two that he can afford..

TAXES WERE PAID WHEN THE PACK WAS PURCHASED..

Do these cops show up at garage sales hassling Moms who are RESELLING stuff they paid taxes on when they originally bought them?..It's the SAME principle..


Technically, taxes are due whenever an item changes hands for money, but people sell stuff they bought all the time, and NEVER charge/pay taxes..and cops do not descend on them in a pack and choke them to death..

[notadmblnd]

6. That would have been my next question

Wasn't the tax paid when he bought the pack? I didn't ask because I figured someone would up and say, they were smuggled form somewhere.

It's a pretty common thing in my area too, people selling a smoke or two from their own packs. I've seen it in the bars, I've even seen smoke shop vendors sell them individually. Heck, when I was young and in high school, kids on the bus would sell them to each other.

It's a shame that law enforcement thought a few pennies was worth murdering for and that the state backed him up.

[yeoman6987]

23. The city is so dumb!

Now they will pay out at least 75 million in wrongful death suit over a couple of tax dollars. I actually hope the family bankrupts the city.

[notadmblnd]

25. I hope they do too

[Travis_0004]

43. Over 50% of ciggerettes in NYC do not have the tax paid

People buy them on an indian reservation, or buy them by the truckload in Virginia where the tax is 40 cents.

You can buy a pack of ciggerettes for 8.00 on the street vs 12 dollars or more in a shop. If I was a smoker I would buy them off the street to save 4.00 a pack.

[notadmblnd]

46. Yep, even said in my post someone would be here to claim this.

So you are certain that it has been established that Mr. Garner did not render unto Ceasar what was Ceasar's?

[stevenleser]

75. Link to pages that back up those assertions please. nt

[Jesus Malverde]

82. Google it.

Half of all smokers (50.1%) reported purchasing cigarettes from low-tax locations, such as Indian reservations, the Internet, duty-free shops, toll-free telephone numbers, and neighboring states and Canada in 2009.

https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/tobacco_control/docs/2010-11-12_tax_increase_topical_report.pdf

[philosslayer]

80. So you would willfully evade paying taxes?

n/t

[Travis_0004]

83. yes

I also bought a 30.00 item on amazon and didnt pay sales tax on that either.

[moondust]

18. ^^^FTW^^^

Perhaps the tax thing is just an excuse for a gang of overly aggressive cops to move on somebody and rack up some arrest points.

[aikoaiko]

20. Do we know that for sure?

Loosie sellers sometimes buy on the black market which are often stolen.

Sometimes they steal them themselves.

Sometimes they buy down south or on a reservation were the taxes are much lower than NYCs.

[sabrina 1]

53. Indian Reservations in NYS lost their battle regarding taxes after decades of fighting

the politicians for the right to sell without taxes, another treaty broken. So buying in Indian Reservations doesn't save much in NYS anymore.

For years, NYS politicians have come up with some draconian suggestions to stop Native Americans from conducting business according to their treaty. One was to stake out customers at reservations, take down their license plate numbers and then bill them for the taxes they saved by buying from Native Americans.

That didn't work, but it's an example of the lengths politicians have gone to to deprive both Native Americans and citizens to conduct business as they always had done.

They finally won. Don't they always?

People were not stealing or buying on the black market until these draconian taxes in NYS went into effect. And now they will have the added revenue of putting people in jail, more 'bodies' for the Private Prison system. And mostly it will be minorities. Another racist 'war' on people's personal choices.

[Jesus Malverde]

100. In 2008

Cigarette tax evasion costs the state (NY) approximately $500 million in revenue every year, and the top three Internet cigarette vendors are located on Indian reservations in western New York. Annual tax-paid cigarette sales are approximately 22.8% lower compared with the year before the tax increase, but self- reported cigarette consumption, intentions to quit smoking, and quit attempts have not changed significantly.

snip

On July 1, 2010, New York’s cigarette excise tax was increased by an additional $1.60 per pack with taxes on other tobacco products increasing in subsequent months. In addition, 2010– 2011 New York State budget revenue projections included approximately $250 million in cigarette taxes collected through the sale of tobacco products on Indian reservations to non- tribal members. Finally, the July 2010 implementation of the federal Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act should effectively eliminate the sale of untaxed tobacco products over the Internet. Based on the findings of this report, it is clear that enforcing these new policies to reduce tax evasion is critical for New York to realize the full public health benefits of the 2008 and 2010 tobacco tax increases.

https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/tobacco_control/docs/2010-11-12_tax_increase_topical_report.pdf

[sabrina 1]

103. How about they tax SUGAR products? I know, the Sugar lobbies have spent millions trying to

hide the scientific data that shows how harmful their product is.

Tax fast food 'vendors' like McDonalds and Burgher King at the same rate to discourage people from living on a diet that we know causes so many health problems beginning in childhood.

I was in Southampton when the war on the right Native Americans according to their treaty with the US Govt was ongoing. The Reservation there fought against these excessive, extortionist taxes for decades and won, until the politicians finally found a way to break yet another treaty.

Taxes are not supposed to extort from the people. And that is what these taxes are doing AND creating 'crime' where none should exist. And we know who is going to be the main targets of 'enforcing the excessive, extortionist' taxes on cigarettes. Eric Garner died because of them.

We've seen all this before with the Drug War. Of course they always CLAIM it's 'for your own good'.

If that were the case, the same extortionist taxes would be applied to sugar products, see the rise in diabetes eg, even among young people, and fast foods etc.

But the health of Americans is NOT the reason for these exorbitant taxes and most intelligent people know this.

[Jesus Malverde]

105. +1...nt

[arcane1]

78. I read somewhere on here yesterday that he was buying them in Virginia where taaxes are lower.

[SoCalDem]

79. aha.. I thought so.. He was

an entrepreneur ...

[arcane1]

81. Don't take my word for it, I've been unable to find the link! :)

[SoCalDem]

84. Nothing surprises me.. Every time something happens,

people come out of the woodwork with variations, and eventually those become the issue instead of the horrible thing that happened.

He should have swindled millions of people out of their homes.,. He'd have gotten a free ride

[arcane1]

86. "He'd have gotten a free ride"

Indeed

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. I think it's fair to say the people are being taxed to death. nt

[notadmblnd]

7. No, pun intended.

am I right?

[HERVEPA]

29. Taxes pay for services you know.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. Yeah. Where would we be if we didn't have taxes to pay for --

cops to kill unarmed citizens, teams of lawyers to keep the cops unindicted and slush funds to make large settlements to keep the civil suit out of the papers.

A bargain at twice the price, I'm sure.

[HERVEPA]

57. As I'm sure you know, that's still a very tiny percentages of what taxes pay for.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

62. And the cigarette tax is a very tiny percentage of tax revenue. Yet, it seems to have killed a man.

[HERVEPA]

63. Jesus H. Christ. The tax didn't kill anybody. The cop did. Disgusting and ridiculous post.

You should be ashamed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. I should be ashamed for wanting a tax reduced or abolished because

it incentivizes "criminal" activity which in turn allows the police to employ violence?

I'll bet you're a fan of the Drug War.

There is nothing wrong with abolishing or reducing the cigarette tax. No great calamity will befall civilization.

[HERVEPA]

72. Wrong. I detest the drug war. I believe the substances should be legal and taxed.

You should be ashamed for blaming the tax for his death, not for wanting to abolish the tax. read more carefully.
And there's nothing wrong with heavily taxing something so vile as cigarettes.
Abolishing that tax will give cities and/or states less money to use for positive purposes.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

76. "I believe the substances should be legal and taxed."

Yet, if they were taxed at a rate that pushed their price above what could be found on the streets to such a degree that it was "worth" it to people to buy on the underground market then legalization would be pointless and the mayhem of the drug war would continue, only in a different form.

[sharp_stick]

66. Ha Ha Ha Ha

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Oh man that's well done....

Oh fuck you're serious.

This talking point is an embarrassment to the site and to discourse in general. It's fucking disgusting.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

71. You must be a another fan of the drug war.

Never mind that the law creates a criminal class where there is no need to have one. Never mind that the police employ this delegated power to harass, imprison, fine, confiscate property and even kill -- me wanting to end that is somehow disgusting.

What's disgusting is that people are defending a stupid tax over the freedom and safety of people from their own police.

[spanone]

4. 29 cents....?

[notadmblnd]

8. Wow, just wow

smh

[FSogol]

9. Fuck Rand Paul.

[sabrina 1]

13. What does Rand Paul have to do with the murder of a citizen for, allegedly, selling a few cigarettes

without paying the state taxes he presumably was supposed to collect?? Are you SERIOUSLY that partisan that even when someone is right about something, you will reject because of a letter after their name? This is why people are so disgusted with politics, it's all a game to some, it seems, with no regard for what is right or wrong, only the letter after someone's name.

This killing WAS about the state taxes on cigarettes in NY, otherwise why were the cops there? Who sent them out to make sure that people do not cheat the state out of a few cents in tax money?

[FSogol]

15. Rand Paul was promoting the idea last night that if NYC taxes were lower, then

Eric Garner would still be alive. Suddenly today, a bunch of dim-witted libertarians jump out of the woodwork crying about cigarette taxes.

It is really sad that I have to explain this to you, but Garner's death had zero to do with cigarette taxes. It had to do with cops using excessive force on a black man. Garner's interaction with the police came from selling cigarettes, but his death did not. His death came from shithead cops willing to use deadly methods on a black man accused of committing a very minor crime.

This has nothing to do with partisan politics. Rand Paul is not right on this issue, he is ignoring racism and poor/deadly policing to pander to some anti-tax fucks. So I'll repeat:

Fuck Rand Paul and his idiotic supporters.

[sabrina 1]

22. Did it ever occur to you that Rand Paul might be simply repeating what millions of people

had already stated, the FACT that this man was killed for a few cents in taxes? That the Police were sent out to arrest someone for allegedly cheating the state out of a few cents in taxes??

I didn't see or hear Rand Paul, not sure why you are so interested in what he has to say. But nearly EVERYONE I KNOW here in NY are OUTRAGED that a man died at the hands of the police because of a few cents in taxes.

Why were the police there in the first place? Are you aware that the police are now targeting people all over the state here who might be buying or selling a few cigarettes without the state getting its taxes?

It is a BIG issue here in NY. If Rand Paul is AGREEING with those who have been angry about this for a long time, good and I hope more people get involved to stop this egregious assault on people's right to make personal choices.

I sure hope you are not claiming to represent Liberals by condoning yet another WAR ON (fill in the blank).

Fuck partisanship, people are sick to death of it. It blinds people to the point of irrationality.

I don't care what ANYONE else thinks or says, I think for myself. And if elected officials choose to agree with my Liberal views, that's a bonus.

[FSogol]

27. "I sure hope you are not claiming to represent Liberals by condoning yet another WAR ON"

You don't make any sense. You are so caught up in railing against partisan Democrats that you see partisanship in everything.

When it comes down to it, some of us want to stop racism, allow all of our lives to matter, and repair problems with the police.
Rand Paul wants to lower taxes.
Do you really want to "stand with Rand" on this issue?

[sabrina 1]

30. If that is your goal, to end racism, then you don't give the cops yet another reason to

target African Americans for selling a few cigarettes, as they have done with the racist Drug War.

So you're not making any sense. Now the cops can arrest and jail African Americans for selling a few cigarettes. I CARE about taking these weapons out of the hands of racist cops who we KNOW, see the Drug War, will most definitely use it to target even more African Americans and other minorities.

I doubt the call to approach Erik Garner stated 'there is an African American you need to go and arrest'. No, they use this tax law to go after minorities, just like the racist Drug Laws.

End the racist Drug War and don't start another one to take its place.

[FSogol]

35. I gave the cops permission? Me?

Rand Paul and the ignoramuses who support him are ignoring the problem, not me.

Go ahead and clean the spittle off your keyboard. You can have the last word.

[sabrina 1]

54. I'm glad Rand Paul is seeing the light on this, thanks to all the Liberals who opposed

NYS's Draconian Drug War and now, its Draconian Cigarette War. It's always great to see Republicans have to admit that Liberals are right.

I remember when the war on Native American Reservation was in full swing in NY. The war to impose taxes against the treaties agreed to with Native Americans. Every liberal I know signed every petition to prevent that from happening and donated to their legal defense fund.

But in the end, the politicians defeated the Native Americans and have now taken away their right to sell their products without taxes to the US Govt. Treaty broken. They did put up a good fight for a long time and had the support of millions of NY liberals AND across the political spectrum.

But in the end they lost, as always.

NYS has the worst Drug Laws in the Country, the infamous Rockefeller laws that have ruined the lives of millions of ordinary people. And now you are supporting a new 'war' which will become, see this latest tragedy, as bad as NYS's horrific drug laws. So yes, if you support these laws, you are contributing to a future where again, minorities will be the victims of these laws which are not about the well being of citizens, they are for-profit and nothing else.

[yeoman6987]

26. How does we know if Eric Garner added the tax on

His state tax form at the end oh the year? The police were wrong to even question him on taxes. And once again we have nosey bodies calling the police to complain about scary black man on street corner. I really wish people would mind their own business. The public are getting these men killed too. They at least have a part in it.

[bettyellen]

10. FYI: In NYC most strangers "bumming a cig" there days offer to pay for them, was 50, now often 1$.

Happens all the time to me. I just give them away if I can. Didn;t know I could be arrested if I took the cash offered!
There is a long standing tradition of buying loosies in NYC, every bodega used to do this. I guess it might seem strange to others.

[TexasProgresive]

21. My wife remembers that from 40 years ago in NYC

[bettyellen]

59. I remember being very surprised myself as a kid, so I thought I would mention it. There are also

small stores all over the country that buy stuff at Costco or other odd channels and resell it broken into smaller packages, and I know some of that is illegal too. It's how impoverished communities cope in a difficult environment, basically.
I'd prefer my PD to break open the damn rape kits and make working on assaults a priority rather than helping out Hermes, Costco or whoever is "hurt" by the cig sales. I think most of us feel that way.

[Mosby]

90. I haven't followed the case much until recently

but if reselling a cig to someone is illegal at all then it would be a civil thing, regular city cops do not have the authority to enforce dept of revenue laws, they have special peace officers for that who work for the state.

[bettyellen]

91. Wow, I wonder if that applies here. Interesting.

[Live and Learn]

98. I remember Liquor stores in CA selling them in the not to distant past.

They no longer do (at least in my experience). I never even thought of them being illegal. And why should it be? I hate stupid laws. They only serve the prison industrial complex.

[Glassunion]

16. 1 human life apparently

[notadmblnd]

24. It's difficult not to lapse into a sense of hopelessness

[JaneyVee]

39. We're blaming taxes instead of cops?

LOL.

[notadmblnd]

41. People like Rand Paul seem to be

odd- how one brown skinned man depriving the state of 29 cents in tax revenue warrants a death sentence, but a corporation depriving the same state of millions of dollars in tax revenue suffers no repercussions.

[JaneyVee]

45. The party of "personal responsibility".

In real life, NY cigarette use has declined hugely. Saving lives. Keep the focus on police brutality.

[notadmblnd]

50. it's not about the fucking cigarette

It's about someone having paying the ultimate price for depriving the state of a few pennies in revenue. It's a god damn mother fucking shame that leos in NY don't have anything better to do than go after a struggling man of color for a few measly pennies. That's my fucking point!

[olddots]

42. what if he was selling bottled water ?

This was about the cops wanting him to be gone .Racism played a huge part but it probably had nothing to do with tobacco but hey maybe I am wrong .

[gollygee]

48. I agree

I think it's about racial profiling, and assuming all African American men must be doing something illegal. The specific thing the police claim he was doing isn't the problem. It's the racial profiling and the dehumanization of people of color.

[Travis_0004]

55. He had over 30 arrests

I dont think the police were after him just because he was black. He was probably well known to the local police long before this incident.

[gollygee]

61. He might very well have been doing something illegal

and they might have known him, but this kind of unnecessary over-the-top violence happens disproportionately to African Americans. It isn't about the cigarettes.

[Man from Pickens]

102. The cigarettes are just the excuse

This is "respec-mah-autoritah!" stuff.

Power hungry goons looking for victims, a nonviolent out-of-shape fat guy with a rap sheet is an easy target.

This is the exact same dynamic as when the local bully picks on the fat kid on the bus. It is literally a grade-school mentality driving it.

[adirondacker]

64. If he was white, he could strip down to his whitey tighteys, play guitar and become rich for

his tax avoidance scheme.

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/naked-cowboy-net-worth/

[Live and Learn]

97. Think you'd actually have to be rich and not black for that to occur. nt

[Live and Learn]

96. For petty little chit that shouldn't even be illegal let alone more than an infraction.

I am getting pretty sick of this murderous officer apologist mentality.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

51. More than the value of Mr. Garner's life

[shallwechat]

60. who cares,....what NYC sets its tax rate.

the police killed Mr. garner, not the tax....

[CK_John]

73. A % of the sale price........nt

[LittleBlue]

74. You're right. Excessive taxation has created a black market

Let's be honest. While high taxes deter smoking, this could also be viewed as a punitive tax on poor smokers.

[SoCalDem]

85. What always cracks me up is that they put sin taxes on something

and them praise the taxation because it helps the schools...but as more and more people find ways around paying the taxes or quit using the product, they run out of money for schools..

[quadrature]

88. how much is wholesale price of cigs (without tax)?

FYI, this is my guess at taxes
NYS, $5.85, as seen on posts on DU
NYC, $???
Fed, $1.50, from memory, just a guess

cost in store, $12, from this thread.

please add or make correction, Thanks.
please be as specific as you can be.

[Mosby]

92. in az a carton of malboros is $60.25 at costco.

a lot of other brands are more expensive, benson and hedges for example are 73.55 per carton.

[quadrature]

93. that is the retail price. a pack costs 25 cents to make...

something does not add up,
unless retailers are having to make a
payoff to the mob or the police

[Mosby]

94. no that's a wholesale price.

In AZ you can't buy cartons at Costco unless you are a reseller. No one makes much money off of smokes except the manufacturers and the government.

As I posted up thread, local city cops do not enforce tax laws, especially with cigs. The various department of revenues have special tobacco cops who do that, they are employed by the state.

[nilesobek]

99. I think it was partially about the cigarettes.

It was a blatant murder of a citizen who clearly surrendered. But these cops freak out over bootleg cigs. I read in another thread that the cops were fixing to charge Garner with 31 counts of some type over selling bootleg singles. This clearly shows that they were out to "bury," Garner even before they got around to killing him. There is a nasty financial motivation, along with the racial motivation for this to happen. Not even really a crime, just a trivial infraction is what it should be to sell single cigarettes.

[Eleanors38]

106. This is a War On Drugs death, no different from...

other deaths at the hands of LEOs enforcing prohibition laws under the guise of high taxes.

When your backstop is criminalization, you have prohibition and the consequential violence required to enforce such laws. Expect more.

[Avalux]

107. WHO CARES? That's not the issue here, even though RWers are trying to make it so.

I heard an incredibly fucked up rant a la Ann Coulter last night while flipping channels; to her, the Garner case is all about that tax, not race (the cops rough up Indians over it mostly, not African Americans), and it's the fault of liberals, since there's a tax in the first place and it keeps cops from going after actual drug dealers. GOT THAT????

Quit buying into the RW obfuscation bullshit.

[notadmblnd]

108. SMH, along with a heavy sigh

Why is it, you read one question- then provide your knee-jerk, snarky response with out reading anything else I posted in this thread?

If you had bothered to read further in the thread than you did before your reply, you would understand, the point I was trying to get at. But no, you're more interested in looking for statements from posters where you can take the opportunity to covertly accuse them of accuse them of being right wing trolls.

I've been here over 10 years and have nearly 20k posts. I think that if I were a right wing troll, I would have been found out and gone long before now. Or do you really think I'm that good at trolling?

[Avalux]

110. I never called you a troll, I wasn't thinking that at all.

And yes, a knee jerk reaction on my part. I've been here a long time too and rarely react emotionally to a post but this time I did; it happens to the best of us.

[notadmblnd]

111. Thank you for that reply

it is very emotional for so many of us.

[KamaAina]

115. Many NYC bodegas (neighborhood markets) sell "loosies"

individual cigarettes, rather than by the pack. This is illegal. But I have not heard of the NYPD choking any bodega owners to death.