"This is the Norwegian way..........We need to carry this out in a dignified manner."

[marmar]

OSLO, Norway — You would have forgiven Norwegians for showing more outrage against confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik.

When he walks in to court flashing a right-wing salute. When he testifies effortlessly about killing their children, brothers and sisters as if they were flies. When he calls his teenage victims traitors who deserved to die for their political views.

The subdued atmosphere during the trial of a right-wing fanatic who confessed to slaughtering 77 people on July 22 reflects Norway's almost self-punishing efforts to avoid feelings of vengeance against the unrepentant gunman.

"This is the Norwegian way," said Trond Henry Blattmann, whose 17-year-old son was among the 69 people killed in Breivik's shooting massacre on Utoya island. "We need to carry this out in a dignified manner. If people were shouting and screaming this would be a circus and not a trial. We don't want it to be a circus." ..................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20120420/EU.Norway.Massacre/

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Good for the Norwegians.

They are not letting their blood lust rule them.

NO circus, NO revenge.

I wish we had that sort of attitude.

[marmar]

2. Agreed.

nt

[steve2470]

3. agreed nt

[gateley]

4. +1 nt

[Blue_Tires]

19. +1000

[BOHICA12]

5. Wow .... such a midset explains much.

At least in 1945 they still had enough of their stones left to execute Quisling.

[fascisthunter]

20. to you executing a human being takes stones?

[ellisonz]

24. Thank you.

[white_wolf]

32. Thank you.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that comment to be disturbing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. So you're saying Norway is devoid of testicles since they don't execute people?

Please explain your reasoning. I'm not able to make sense out of what you've said.

[BOHICA12]

38. Kill my kid in a premeditated masacre and face 21 years time ....

.... and my stones won't want nor will they call for dignity.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

47. Just let me know the minute your testicles are considered the rule of law, and we're all good

Until then, both you, and your left, and your right testicles will need to let the Norwegian court system handle this one the way they see fit. I know where you're coming from, but that's not a good basis for making laws.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

53. And in this way, you and the shooter are the same. He's accepting his "societal sanction", if you

hadn't noticed.

[MineralMan]

33. Stones? Really?

That is very, very disturbing. Truly.

[Mendocino]

60. Various facts about Norway

Extensive Social Safety Net

Key Contributor to UN peace keeping Forces and one the biggest financial sources for the UN

Universal Health Care

Higher Education virtually free

46 weeks of parental leave a year

One of best in world in Environmental Protection Index, which is based of effects of government policies on the environment.

Highest Human Development Index in the world.

Reporters Without Borders rank Norway as tied for first in Freedom of the Press

No general death penalty since 1902, DP for treason and war crimes abolished in 1979

4th highest GDP in the World

Only 3.1% unemployment

Full Marriage equality

Foreign Policy Magazine ranks Norway last in "Failed State Index"


As for "stones", perhaps you should stop throwing them.

[Rose Siding]

61. You are very good at making a point.

Thanks for hunting up those facts.

I've been married to a man of Norwegian decent for 25 years and I find his stoicism to be a source of great strength.

[jwirr]

6. When the defendant is given a dignified trial then there is no one who cans claim it was not a fair

trial. It is the same reason that a defendant is given a lawyer. We want to be sure that we have justice in the end.

[Kaleva]

7. Post WWII, Norway handled the collaborator situation rather well

Many thousands were arrested after Germany surrendered but a majority of them were released in a few days to a few weeks. Of the relative few who were tried, found guilty and sentenced to death, I can only think of one whose sentence and execution was considered controversial.

[Domingo Tavella]

8. Norway is a civilized nation

This monster is not shackled when taken before the judge, just as a far worse monster, Eichmann, was not shackled when tried in Israel. In fact, he is seen chatting with the guards before walking into court. These are signs of civilized behavior, not because individuals like these deserve to be treated so humanly, but because there is none of the shallow theatrics typical of American courts, where the accused (not yet proven guilty) are walked into the courtroom wearing a business suit and chains, a point that escapes rational thinking (unless one believes that the accused will jump off the courtroom window to land on an awning above the sidewalk below and run away to a job interview.)

[apocalypsehow]

9. If that's the "Norwegian way," I, for one, am glad we here in the U.S. do not resemble it. n/t.

[marmar]

10. Yeah, civility and due process.......

The horror !!!!

[apocalypsehow]

11. Yeah, because we have neither "civility" nor "due process" in the United States...

[bahrbearian]

14. We will evenutally give them a day in court, and call it due process,

[EFerrari]

43. Your government can pick you up for no reason and hand you over to the military

for indeterminate detention without any charges whatsoever. No, we don't have due process here any more.

[white_wolf]

49. Or even better...

The President can sign a paper deeming you a terrorist and have you and your kid killed by a drone. Hmm, an executive decree declaring someone guilty and punishing someone for a crime without the benefit of a trial, what is that called again? Oh, a Bill of Attainder and it is blatantly unconstitutional.

[bahrbearian]

12. Yes we need to put them in solitary ,Naked,,,

deprive them of sleep ,....

[bahrbearian]

13. We need to lock them up with no charges for 18 months, in seclusion

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. I'll take the "Norwegian way" over the American way on so many fronts, any day.

The American way is blood lust, ie the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, neither of which had anything too do with 9/11.

[Skittles]

15. half Norwegian here

yup, that is the Norwegian way - AWESOME

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Half Norwegian here, too, and I was IN NORWAY the weekend of the attacks

The dignified sorrow of the country was impressive and moving.

I accidentally got caught up in a 150,000-person memorial march the Monday after the shootings and the bomb attack, which were on Friday. All those people marching silently from the Oslo city hall to the parliament building, holding flowers.

The morning paper carried a headline quoting the Crown Prince: "Last night the streets of Oslo were filled with love." (I read Norwegian well enough to understand to understand simple sentences like that.)

The following day, I happened to be in the area of the city hall again, and several dozen tough-looking motorcyclists were assembling there. I asked one of them what was happening, and he replied that they were going to have a silent procession in honor of the victims. As I watched, they quietly got into formation and took off.

An unforgettable experience--and so different from the way Americans would have handled such a situation.

[Raine]

35. Half Norwegian here to but the other half

of me is totally the opposite, I'm always at war with myself.

[white_wolf]

16. Once again, the Norwegian way sure as hell beats the American way.

Why can't I have been born in Norway instead of this right-wing hell. Compared to many other nations, the U.S. is barbaric.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

21. And yet, this crime happened.....

I thought "things like that" don't happen in Utopia, only in the right wing hell hole known as America.

[white_wolf]

23. Did I ever once say it was utopia?

Nice strawmen, though. The fact is that Norway handled this much better than the U.S. would have. Come back when you have better arguments aside from fallacies.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

39. If it happened in the US, he likely would have been dead before he got to his 25th victim.

I'm sure you'll find some way to see that as a negative, though.....because you know, barbarians and all that.....

[white_wolf]

41. No, if someone killed him in self-defense than so be it...

However, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which is of Norway's justice system vs the U.S.'s. Quit trying to change the topic, we aren't discussing self-defense, we are discussing the justice system.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

51. Oh, baloney

If someone continued down your path to kvetch about all the ways we are "barbaric" beyond the justice system, you wouldn't want to stop them. And yes, the fact we have a strong law enforcement presence in this country plays into much of the usual complaining about our justice system, but in this instance I can't help but think it would have been welcomed by the families of those poor people who were massacred.

[white_wolf]

55. There are plenty of ways we are barbaic beyond the justice system.

Letting people who can't afford healthcare die is barbaric, for instance. However, back to the topic at hand, the law enforcement here does have too much power and the right-wing Supreme Court seems determined to give them more. Now, let's look at results of the two systems. The U.S. has over a 60% recidivism rate while Norway's is around 25%. Tell me, which system is more successful?

[CBGLuthier]

29. One horrific abberation. For horror in america

read the daily news. Brutality is the standard.

[sudopod]

34. Funny how his reading list was a who's who of crazy American right wingers

isn't it?

[fascisthunter]

42. !

see, we export... stuff.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

46. Were they the only people on his reading list?

I'll answer that.......of course not. He cited numerous European and Middle Eastern authors as his influences, as well as all the radical bigoted pols and party leaders on the rise in Scandinavian countries.

(Oh, and Thomas Jefferson too.)

But of course, that wouldn't fit the narrative, because we know only America creates and harbors bad apples, and psychopaths only cite the writings of bad people as an influence.

[sudopod]

64. No, really, me and all the other lefties here hate America more than anything else.

by the way, you are totally uninvited to the flag burning party.

Do you ever actually listen to what you say? I think DU should install the feature mentioned in this xkcd, it would clear the air of drama...dramatically.

http://xkcd.com/481/

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

65. Funny how his reading list is a who's who of crazy Finnish nationalists, isn't it?

There, maybe that's easier for you to wrap your mind around.

Return to your snark and posting poorly drawn and broad cartoons as you wish.

[Renew Deal]

40. It's not too late for you to go experience Norway first hand

And spare us the excuses. You are welcome to go.

[white_wolf]

44. A love it or leave it post.

Seriously, don't you have anything better? Oh, and there are several things stopping me from moving to Norway. Money issues and immigration laws spring to mind. Honestly, though, I'm not sure why I'm arguing with someone who has to resort to "love it or leave it" arguments. It's like talking to right-wingers, "if you dare criticize America you can get it out!"

[Renew Deal]

45. There is always an excuse

And I didn't say love it or leave it. I said that you should go test your theories and report back.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. Immigration laws, eh?

Sounds "barbaric".

[white_wolf]

58. If you are going to resort to one liners, I'm done.

It's not worth arguing with someone who can't even bother to back up their statements with more than a sentence.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

59. No, I'm legit curious as to what those immigration laws are

I'm sure they are pretty strict, likely far more strict than what we have here, and I can't imagine you'd approve of any country with laws like that.

[LeftishBrit]

62. I have experienced Norway first hand. Not as a citizen/long-term resident but on several visits

It is a country that I like and admire very much. Might have even considered trying to make it longer-term, but I'm not good with very cold winters!

I don't intend to move away from the UK, but I do call Norway 'The Land that Thatcherism Forgot' - as well as being a beautiful country with great people.

Having some personal connection with Norway made this tragedy even more devastating to me.

[cali]

54. it's not even a little barbaric where I live, my friend- or a teeny bit right wing.

and yes, I live in the U.S. And just think, dear, you could have been born in Somalia, in Rwanda during the nineties or how about somewhere nice and civilized like Bosnia in '92.

There are so very many worse places to have been born.

[white_wolf]

57. Of course there are worse places.

You can always find somewhere worse to compare yourself too. However, our prison system if awful and I don't think anyone can deny that. The way prisoners are treated in the U.S. is awful, especially considering we still haven't abolished the death penalty which is nothing more than state sanctioned murder.

[RZM]

17. Anybody here remember the Jamie Bulger murder in Britain about 20 years ago?

I remember video of people throwing stuff at the van that transported the suspects to court and calls for the young offenders to be executed. I don't think those types of things were widespread, but they certainly happened.

I'm not being critical of the British reaction to the case. Just thought it's an interesting comparison.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

22. "21 years in prison" for 77 lives

Nice. If I were a right-wing psychopath, that sort of "civility" would make it all worth it.

[ellisonz]

25. Not quite...

April 16, 2012, 5:53 pm
Anders Breivik
By ANDREW ROSENTHAL

The Anders Breivik trial started in Oslo on Monday. Mr. Breivik, the self-described commander of the Norwegian Resistance Movement, has admitted to killing 77 people in a rampage last July, but according to the story in today’s Times has “denied criminal responsibility on the grounds that he was protecting Norway from Islamic immigration.”

If the court finds him insane, Mr. Breivik will be kept under forced psychiatric care “for as long as his illness persists” (possibly the rest of his life). Otherwise, Mr. Breivik’s maximum sentence will be 21 years, although a judge can extend his incarceration after that point if he’s still considered dangerous.

By American standards that’s a shockingly lenient punishment. Comparing one high-profile case with another—if a Florida jury finds George Zimmerman guilty of second-degree murder in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, he’ll face a maximum sentence of life in prison, and a minimum penalty of 25 years.

The American system, oriented around punishment (vengeance) and containment (keeping dangerous people off the streets), is arguably more satisfying for a crime like Mr. Breivik’s. But outside of worst-of-the-worst type cases, it’s Norway, with its focus on rehabilitation, that has the more rational and effective prison policy.

More: http://loyalopposition.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/anders-breivik/

[CBGLuthier]

31. That man will never breathe free air again in his life

He is guilty. He is a menace. He will continue to be a threat. He will never be set free and he sure as fuck will be convicted. Don't assume the Norwegians are idiots just because they have no life sentence.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

48. Watch yourself

That doesn't sound like "due process" to me. You're prejudging, and that is bad. Very, very bad.

[gratuitous]

27. "Due process" is just so . . . pre-9/11

Golly, when are those silly Norwegians going to get with the program? An irrational criminal act requires an irrational response from the governing authority. See, that's the American way! We don't need to bother with messy questions of guilt or innocence, not when summary execution can be effected with the push of a button by someone sitting thousands of miles away in front of a computer screen. How can you stampede the populace if they're not pants-wettingly scared all the time?

[joeybee12]

28. We could learn a lot from the Norwegians...knr

[Erose999]

36. Only 21 years in prison? For killing 77 people? Norwegian justice might be less theatrical, but

good grief.... this guy should never leave prison.

[ellisonz]

52. See Post #25 Above. n/t

[LeftishBrit]

63. Actually he probably never will be let loose

Under Norwegian law, people can be detained beyond their sentence, if considered dangerous to the public; this very rarely happens, but would in a case like this.

[Cleita]

37. Having known some Scandinavians and one or two Norwegians, they seem to be gentle people who

believe in social justice. It's hard to believe they are descended from the bloodthirsty, pillaging and raping Vikings of the Dark Ages. I guess it gives me hope that we can change our national character too.