About college majors. A lot of people blame students for choosing impractical majors

[pnwmom]

like humanities, instead of more vocational majors, like engineering.

Aside from the whole issue that we SHOULD have some required humanities and social science courses to educate a responsible citizenry (what a concept), what a lot of people don't realize is that students' often don't get their choice of majors -- the lucrative majors tend to be the most competitive ones to get into, with many more students applying than slots available. Yet our whole society has been pushing students to believe that a college degree is critical -- so students who can't get into the engineering or computer science program switch into arts and sciences.

And the best path isn't always clear in any individual's case. One of the most successful young graduates I know majored in political science because his GPA wasn't high enough to get into engineering. But he's doing very well in high tech marketing. An engineering grad, OTOH, took more than a year to find a job, at a pay level significantly below what he'd expected to be paid.

This economy is terrible for jobseekers at every level and in almost every field. But please don't berate young graduates because they were too stupid to take the right major -- there just aren't enough of those technical slots for all the students who want them, and they're often filled by international students who will pay higher tuition. And humanities and social science majors still have options -- it just takes more time and effort to find them.

[elleng]

1. When was the last time we commonly had 'shop' and 'home ec' as optional courses in high school???

[Zalatix]

5. Wow, home economics. That takes me back.

I think you just dated yourself.

[Liberal_in_LA]

131. I had to take home eco in california public schools as a kid.

[exboyfil]

33. Both are required courses in7th grade

and one or the other is a required course in 8th grade at my daughters' junior high. At the high school we have 12 courses in Family and Consumer Science and 17 courses in Industrial Technology (4 of them engineering courses). We spend around $10K/student/yr.

[surrealAmerican]

39. The high school my son goes to still teaches them ...

... although they go by other names: industrial arts and culinary arts. They also have far more pre-vocational offerings than my high school had 30 years ago, but that may be because I went to a much smaller school.

[Taylor Smite]

53. I had them both in middle school

graduate HS in 2001.

I made some nice candle holders and a gumball machine if you are interested. Only $20k, or best offer.

[Odin2005]

92. I had them in high school, I graduated in 2004.

[LiberalFighter]

106. I had shop and enjoyed it. Even though I never went into any of the fields.

I had drafting, electrical, woodwork, and maybe something else that I don't remember.
Later I took various art classes from pottery to painting, drawing, and more.

I'm sure they all made it possible to perform other tasks later in life.

[Hippo_Tron]

2. I think the importance of the major choice on the job market is a misconception

An engineering or a computer science degree will open up some doors for you that a philosophy major won't, but that's only useful IF you want to be an engineer or a computer scientist.

Employers are looking for evidence of high achievement, hard work, and good writing and critical thinking skills. So yes if you convey to an employer that all you did as an English major was read and talk about Shakespeare, it won't be very helpful. But if you can explain how you developed superb reading, writing, and editing skills from all of those papers you did, that's very useful to them.

There really is no such thing as an impractical major, IMO. The bigger problem, is impractical career ambitions.

[pnwmom]

3. I think you're right. Humanities and social science majors can learn

important skills that employers value. They may just have to work harder to see where they'll fit into the job market. The problem is that right now the market is terrible for most people. Even tech people have trouble finding work if they don't have the most in-demand or up-to-date skill-sets.

[exboyfil]

34. Not necessarily true about sticking with engineering once

you are in the workforce. Some of the best compensated degreed engineers are now working in sales and marketing (not to mention upper levels of management). I even took a turn at sales (it is good experience to understand the customer's needs as an engineer). My daughter is planning on majoring in Electrical Engineering and minoring in Film Studies (possibly a second major depending on how the dollars flow). I told her to expect two years in a cube while you learn your company's products and then into the marketing work force. I can envision her calling on film production companies and assisting them with their technology (such as videoediting software as one example).

If you are able to pull a 3.0 in engineering, then I would recommend it almost over any other major especially if you include non-hard extracurriculars (such as video production in my daughter's case). Engineering is very difficult and unless you are near the top in math in high school, you probably should take a test run at a good junior college in Calculus, Chemistry, and Physics.

[deaniac21]

98. Dream on..

[Hippo_Tron]

102. How recently have you applied for an entry level job or hired somebody for one?

I can tell you that in my field (politics), a lot of employers are not looking particularly for political science or government majors and sometimes your resume will stand out in a good way if you didn't major in it. The fact of the matter is that your theories of international relations class that you took junior year doesn't have shit to do with getting a candidate elected or working as a hill staffer and if your cover letter indicates that you think it somehow does, your file is going in the trash.

They are looking for an indication that you have an understanding of how politics and government work, but one doesn't need to have majored in poli sci to do that. Having actually volunteered on a couple of campaigns or interned for a hill office or a trade organization, is far more valuable than having majored in government. Foreign languages (particularly Spanish) are a huge plus for many employers.

My friends in the corporate world have told me that much of that holds true, there. Certainly you should minor in or at least take several classes in business, managerial studies, finance, or whatever your university offers. And you should definitely take some courses in math and statistics. But there's no reason you can't do that and still major in Philosophy.

Again, there are exceptions (some of which I mentioned above) where your undergraduate major leaves you with a particular skill set that you need to be qualified for an entry level job. Engineering, computer science, accounting, applied math (not a whole lot of jobs out there for people who want to do pure math for a living), and foreign languages (some more than others) are all good examples.

But many of today's jobs don't have any particular undergraduate major or course of study that gives you the skill set to do the job. In which case, the employer could care less about what you majored in. They're looking for high achievement and evidence that you understand the field you're getting into. And again, relevant internship or volunteer experience is crucial as well.

[deaniac21]

132. I hired an entry level technician in February

[Iris]

129. What? Nothing to back that up with?

n/t

[james_blocker]

139. Spam deleted by William769 (MIR Team)

[MADem]

4. I think Liberal Arts students are very skilled at debate, and really know how to think.

Hell, if you're going to spend four or five years in university, you may as well study something that you love, that makes you happy. You can always take a course in refrigeration or get a license to drive a truck afterwards if all else fails, or even go into the dreaded "retail" game for some basic employment experience, or the Peace Corps to get a major resume bullet, but that educational experience should be something that enlightens and invigorates. I don't think the economy will be bad forever--at some point, we're going to want the poets and artists again.

I feel sorry for kids who are studying accounting or engineering solely because they think it's a guarantee of a job, dragging themselves to class and hating every second of it, when they'd rather be majoring in art or music.

It's a shame that advanced education is so damned expensive. It's out of the reach of so many, and that's sad.

I'd never "blame" a kid for wanting to study something that interests them. Sheesh, it's terrible that they have to choose between getting on a work treadmill and doing something they hate for the rest of their working life, instead of being able to study something that motivates them and apply that to their working life.

[pnwmom]

8. I've been seeing posts like this. The parent's blaming himself and the kid for choosing

the wrong path.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1014&pid=104417

[MADem]

11. I don't think education is ever wasted. I don't think there is a "wrong" path.

If the standard for "success" is making money, well, hell, prostitution can pull in a good paycheck, too--but is it worth it if it makes the person doing the work feel horrible about themselves?

Parents have a choice. They can either offer their children help with college--or NOT. It's kind of crappy to tell a kid that they'll help with college, and then, after the fact, gripe about the kid's major. If there are conditions, have the decency to state them up front, not complain after the degree is obtained.

If I were a kid in these times who had majored in polisci, I would work a few campaigns, try to get hired on as an office worker in a good campaign, work very, very hard for little to no money, be tireless, aggressive and loyal to a fault, and that could well translate into a job either at a state-based office or in DC. Once you're on that track, if you work very hard, it's "Away we go!" If you're good, you get a reputation, and people will try to hire you away from your rep, even if he/she loses or retires.

The other thing a liberal arts student can do is substitute teach. If they are willing to get up every morning they can work most days, and even get gigs that last weeks or months. If they are pleasant and positive, you know that the person in the administrative office responsible for calling for a substitute is going to call the pleasant and positive one FIRST. It's a decent paycheck if they are motivated, willing to go to this school one day, that school the next, and they can get up early and move fast in the morning. The college degree is the ticket--no teaching skills required. This is a good bet for people who don't know if they'd like teaching, but want to try it on for size. If they do like it, they can go back to school and grab a few teaching courses, do a practicum, and get certified in their state. AND...if they already have experience as a sub working in a particular school system, when that system starts hiring, who will they hire first? The devil they know, or the devil they don't know?

[pnwmom]

15. In my state you actually need a regular certification even to substitute teach.

And all over the country, teachers are still facing lay-offs.

But I agree, being a substitute teacher is a good way to learn about districts and get your foot in the door.

[MADem]

80. I know people in MA, MD and CA who do it as a full time job, more or less.

They have college educations, and nothing else. They don't need the health insurance (one is retired military and thus has TRICARE, one gets insurance through spouse insurance, and the other does the Commonwealth Care thing), they like the ability to take a week off if they need to, love the summers off, and they get along with the school administrators where they work ... so it suits them. It's not a good thing for someone who doesn't have health insurance, unless they live in MA and can get on the Commonwealth Care (which isn't free but is income based and thus affordable).

I suppose some places can get picky, but I'll bet the principal and assistant principal spend a lot of time at those schools covering for teachers, or they haul in a lot of retirees! Or maybe the teachers just get used to working sick!

[pnwmom]

86. There are so many unemployed teachers and new graduates with certifications, our state

has no problem having enough substitutes, even while requiring a certification.

[handmade34]

71. as the parent

of a son graduating (in 26 days!) from UVM with a dual degree in philosophy/history... I worry, but I am not lamenting...

[Iris]

78. He will be ok.

Seriously. I've met a lot of history majors and a lot of philosophy majors and NONE of them are unemployed.

In fact, I'm married to one!

[Fumesucker]

25. Advanced education is not expensive at all...

You can learn anything you wish if you put your mind to it, now more so than ever.

What is expensive is jumping through the hoops to get the degree that *says* you have an advanced education.

[MADem]

84. State schools often have fairly affordable online programs.

I swear, it's probably better for a kid to get the college experience if they don't know what they want to do, and once they figure it out, fill in the gaps with online coursework.

I guess the pressure is really on to jump right into the workforce full-formed and ready to chain oneself to a career these days, which causes kids stress. Hell, I had a few years of crappy jobs before I settled into a career, I guess that's no longer an acceptable paradigm in some quarters!

One of our younger family members is currently working towards a degree while working a not-quite-full-time job (it's seasonal-ish work, so he works doubletime in summer) and he actually prefers the online environment to attending brick-and-mortar school, which he did for two years. He video conferences with classmates and the profs, and it's just more streamlined without the commuting and wasted time, which suits him. He had enough of the partying and hijinks of college life--he's a bit more mature than most his age, and decided to bear down and go year round. He'll be done by the end of the year.

[Odin2005]

95. THIS! You win the thread.

It's the BS of credentialism, it seems experience has become meaningless, having a diploma is all that matters, and companies use college education as a source of "pre-trained" labor rather than training workers themselves.

[AngryAmish]

126. Amen to this

I'm a lawyer. In law school you are not trained to be a lawyer mostly but to "think like a lawyer". Which is bullshit. The first year stuff (evidence, torts, contracts, legal writing) I suppose is good (though 2 semesters of constitutional law is excessive). Second year I mostly tuned out, third year I played golf - which was awesome. Law school is definitely a year too long and not practical at all.

Do you know why credentials are so important? Having a degree is a signalling device that you are smart and can finish a job. IQ tests for employees are illegal so they have to find some other way to screen out the dummies.

[white_wolf]

133. I'm planning on going to law school...

thinking of either doing work in constitutional law or labor law. Anyway, everyone I've talked to has told me the third year of law school is pointless. They say once you survive the first two years you are probably okay. Though, I have to say, the whole training to "think like a lawyer" sounds like bullshit to me too. Medical schools don't train you to "think like a doctor", but to be a doctor. Why shouldn't law school be the same?

[AngryAmish]

134. Thinking like a lawyer is just issue spotting

So it is kinda BS. Medical school does train one to think like a doctor, then you really learn as an intern and resident.

But going to law school, you really should think that over. There is no work in constitutional law, unless you can go to Harvard or Yale, be the smartest person in your class and then get lucky.

I was going to be a labor lawyer at one time and kinda practiced in that field for a little while. I like the field but ended up doing something else. The problem - I assume you want to play on employee side in labor law. Well, unions have elections. Your or your firm has to back a side or a slate in the election. You better win the election or you are out, with a lease on office space and hungry mouths at home. Not very stable.

Anyway, cheers.

[Taylor Smite]

54. Wife majored in nursing

because her parents made her do so. She didnt want to be a nurse. She wanted to be an archeologist

She graduated top of her class.

Had a panic attack beacuse of the pressure to be perfect and have the perfect job with the perfect salary.

She is on depression and anxiety medication now. She works as a cashier at a grocery store.

Total shell of her former self.

[MADem]

88. She should try taking one course in archaeology, either at a local state school or online, if

she feels up to it. Just one course. No pressure. Even an "appreciation" type pass/fail/audit type class. Or maybe participate in a "dig" come summer with a school or agency that's doing a little excavating.

She should see if she still has the urge. If she does, she can chip away at it, one course at a time--since she has a nursing degree, she can apply some of those credits towards another degree in archaeology, she won't have to start from scratch.

[NYC_SKP]

6. I selected my major based 100% on what educational program I was most interested in, not by career.

I chose a five year program in architecture and put myself though school working and scholarships with only a $3,000 debt at the end.

I never wanted to be an architect. I'd pondered it but really, the more I understood that it was about clients and codes, the less I cared about the profession.

I cared because it is the intersection of art and science, and that decision has served me well.

Kids should go to school to learn about things that interest them.

If their spirit isn't fed, then what's the point of living?

[pnwmom]

7. Only a $3,000 debt at the end? The average now is $25K, and that's just undergrad.

When did you graduate?

I totally agree about feeding the spirit . . . .

[NYC_SKP]

9. Graduating Class of 1984.

I believe that the once "free to all" institution, the Cooper Union, has since been forced to require tuition.

[IndyJones]

21. I was $25K in debt after undergrad and that was back in 1986. I paid it all off.

I know many, many people who owe over $150K, some over $200K. I feel for those people. That's just crazy. I don't think that $25K is too much to pay back, though.

[coalition_unwilling]

10. We really need a latter-day Martin Luther to come along and tack up

95 Theses on the doors of academia.

First on the list of 95 - Higher education is not vocational training.

Second on the list of 95 - Football\basketball coaches should not get paid as much as (or more than) assistant professors.

Flame away

[MADem]

12. Flame away? How about a round of applause!

[NYC_SKP]

14. +10

[Odin2005]

96. IMHO college football can go straight to Hell.

[joeglow3]

136. For making money for universities and supporting 20+ other sports

Why don't the 19 other sports that LOSE money and take it away from academics need to go to hell? Why is the only sport that needs to "got straight to hell" the only one that makes money and DOESN"T take it away from academics?

[Hippo_Tron]

104. If the football/basketball team is a net reveue generator, I'm fine with paying the coach more

If it's not (and it's not, except at the schools schools with top programs), then I agree that they should not be paid more.

And while assistant professors could probably use a bit of a pay bump, there's still tremendous competition for academic jobs, and plenty of people willing to do them. My far greater concern is how little we pay primary and secondary school instructors.

[coalition_unwilling]

121. Why any institution of higher education should use intercollegiate athletics

as a 'revenue generator' staggers the mind. My latter-day Martin Luther might even question why there are intercollegiate athletics at all.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

13. Had a co-worker tell me that - basically blamed the students

for choosing impractical majors. We were talking about OWS and he said it's a bunch of pissed off college students that went to expensive schools and picked bad majors so are now unemployed and in debt.

However, when I read today that 50% of college students are either unemployed or underemployed in menial jobs on graduation, I think the problem is a hell of a lot bigger than that. The problem is there are NO JOBS. For anyone. With any college major. At. All. Well. Unless you like flipping burgers. . .

So I think this 'meme' - which it apparently is - is pure BS.

[dkf]

20. People can't retire.

[HughBeaumont]

26. . . . because their cost of living is skyrocketing while their real dollar wage remains flat.

Throw in a 33-year-long "risk shift" from the wealthy/corporation to the worker, and there's the problem.

[dkf]

32. Frankly letting Medicare costs get out of control and covering only at 65

Will keep a lot of people working regardless of how much they save.

[fascisthunter]

59. lol... one track mind. Kill the New Deal!!!!!!! Blame it on the little people...

... and not those with the millions who made money from it all. Weeeeeeeee......

[dkf]

114. I am in support of single payer that controls costs.

What does that have to do with little people or millionaires?

Your post is just out there.

[Iris]

66. I majored in English. I don't know anyone from my program who does not have a career now.

Not a job, but a career. I don't know anyone who ended up waiting tables or flipping burgers indefinitely. And I graduated in the last recession - late 80's. It was rough at first but everyone found their way.

[MineralMan]

82. Yup. What English majors know how to do is to communicate.

Few academic skills are as important. If you can communicate and are able to learn, there are few things you can't do. My fellow English majors from 1971 have had a very wide variety of careers.

[bluestate10]

87. Less than 20% of students study hard sciences or engineering.

The graduation rate of engineers is low, around 11% of all graduates. The country needs 3 to 4 times the number of engineering and hard science students that are graduating. The country need skilled trade people. BTW, historically, artists, writers and actors have accepted waiting tables at the start of their careers. I feel that their education should be free and publically financed, but the idea of instant gratification and instant employment upon graduation has never been a reality, never. The greatest artists and composers in history sought sponsors to pay them paltry wages while they pursued their crafts that would ultimately bring them lasting fame.

[Zookeeper]

16. I met a young man who was working part-time at a sewing machine repair shop...

who had graduated a year earlier with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. He was still looking for the job he went to school for.

A college degree doesn't come with a guarantee, so unless the student is truly interested in a vocational major, it might be worth focusing on getting a good Liberal Arts education.

[phylny]

18. Our oldest daughter has a double major from a prestigious public university in Philosophy and...

Engineering. Minor in Civil Engineering. She's currently an assistant manager at a drug store chain. Go figure.

[Zookeeper]

19. Ouch! I wish her the best of luck finding something more suitable. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

22. Wasn't always that way

There was a time during my lifetime that a high school graduate could get a full time job just about any time they wanted one. It was hard, dirty factory work, but it was often union pay and benefits which was usually enough for a family of four to survive with that one paycheck. Back then the union cashiers at the local grocery stores made about the same pay and benefits as we received.

Only people working part time for minimum wage back then were 15-16 year old kids at Dog N' Suds. I did that.

Working part time/minimum wage was unheard of around this area for an adult.

I was making more money than my father was making back then before I graduated high school. He was making about 15 grand a year as a letter carrier and I hired into a factory soon as I turned 18 making about 25 grand a year. Got hired in when I still had a couple months left before I graduated high school.

Oh, another thing. Our union had negotiated college tuition with our employer. We could go to school for anything we wanted to go for. For free. Want a Liberal Arts education? No problem. Our company would pay for the entire thing if that is what someone wanted to do.

Then my fellow citizens elected a washed up B-movie actor name Ronald Reagan for president ... twice, and it has been all down hill since then.

This is no mystery to me because I watched it happen. It has been very depressing.

Don

[Warren Stupidity]

29. ^^ this ^^

Is the answer. We been screwed. And the people who did the screwing have managed to convince those who got screwed the most, your stereotypical suburban white male, to keep voting for more screwing again and again and again.

Meanwhile the other political party, ours, has adopted the slogan "ours is smaller and we aren't as horny".

[madinmaryland]

41. I remember growing up in the midwest in the 60's and 70's and the kids

in our small town would all try to get jobs at either the Ford plant or the Superior Bus company in the city about 15 miles away. The ones with parents already there stood the best chance of getting in for either summer jobs or full-time jobs after finishing high school. All were union and they obviously paid the best wages and had the best benefits.

I think all of those jobs have disappeared.

[jwirr]

51. Yes, I lived through that also. And life was good.

[Zookeeper]

58. I remember those days, and went to college...

with guys who would take a break and get an auto plant job for a few months. They'd make enough money for another year of college. I didn't know anyone who was taking out student loans.

[white_wolf]

77. A few months?!

God, without scholarships or loans you would probably have to work for a couple of years now to pay for a year at college once you factor in books, cost of living, and tuition. I can't even conceive of being able to take off a few months and being able to save enough for tuition.

[Zookeeper]

105. Well, a good union job at an auto plant and....

then pinching pennies after returning to school, seemed to work for them. Of course, it was probably different for people in other parts of the country.

Regardless, as you say, one would now probably have to work for years at minimum wage to save for a year of University education. My kids are at that age, so I know what you're talking about.

IMHO, Right-leaning "Haves" have circled the wagons and ensured that there will be fewer people able to compete with their children for the best jobs.

[Throckmorton]

79. My wife is working this summer as office manager at a summer camp

She is a volunteer, but, the camp hires around 125 people for the summer. They camp director and I were talking on Saturday, he is flooded with applications from soon to be college grads (over 200) for the 9 week jobs that pay around $2500 for the summer. Almost every one says the same thing, can't find a job, applying to Grad School for the fall, this pays ok, and room and board are free for the summer.

Some of the recent hires are asking to move in early, and work for food for a few weeks in June.

[Zookeeper]

108. A friend of my daughter did that last summer...

She lived and worked at a pretty rustic camp for the entire summer (except for a couple of weeks with us). It really helped her financially between her college semesters. I would bet that they didn't even advertise for employees, but hired through word of mouth.

[Throckmorton]

124. No advertising at all here,

entirely word of mouth at several of the local colleges. There are only 2 openings still available as of today.

[Oldtimeralso]

17. I took up two things in college!

Time and Space.

[dkf]

23. Well for some it may serve as a cautionary tale.

People should be able to decide for themselves if they think the risk of not finding a job is something they can live with. But then the onus is on them if they can't.

[Iris]

67. Business majors risk not finding a job.

wtf?

[dkf]

115. Everyone does. But certain majors have higher risks some of which are knowable.

[Iris]

128. That's bullshit.

You are just saying that because you think "business" sounds like a job skill program. It's not. In fact, people I know who lost jobs during the recession had degrees in business and marketing.

[pnwmom]

118. So should they just drop out of college if they can't get into one of the most selective majors?

[Marrah_G]

24. My son is switching from a math major to a communications major.

With his military training, job and clearance getting a job after college with the new major should be easier, while he works towards a Masters.

[Odin2005]

99. Isn't "Communications" what the airheads major in?

Why would you son major in THAT?

[Marrah_G]

100. I'm sorry, I had it wrong

His job in the military is Combat Communications, the major he is switching to is computer science to compliment the communications job in the military.

He's part of the 253rd out of Otis AFB.

[Odin2005]

101. No problem!

[Hippo_Tron]

111. That sort of thing depends on the university

Where I went to school, communication studies was notoriously difficult. I took two public speaking classes and they were incredibly valuable.

And just because a bunch of airheads major in something, doesn't mean that you can't make it a worthwhile degree if you apply yourself.

[pnwmom]

119. I hope you're being facetious. Plenty of people have gotten jobs with communications majors.

My niece just got an excellent first job, working for a company that needed her background in communications and social media.

[CommPro17]

130. Spam deleted by William769 (MIR Team)

[REP]

122. No. At many Unis, it is Journalism, not Looking Good on TV

My university's Communication Studies program is regarded as one of the best in the nation.

What's YOUR degree in? Can I laugh at it?

[no_hypocrisy]

27. 33 years ago I graduated with a music major, having taken

European Civilization, three foreign languages, music/art/theater history, etc. and became both a certified teacher and an attorney.

I had a rough spell in law school, and had to appear before a panel that would decide whether I could stay. A professor asked me how music had any relevance in the study and practice of law.

I responded that I had the ability to listen - - really listen to details, to nuances, to hear changes, to be surprised in analyzing pieces I heard hundreds of times. To be able to deconstruct a major symphony and all its parts. To be able to compose my own rondo, song cycle, chorale. I had a set of skills that set me apart from non-music majors. You just transferred them from scores and a recording to fact pattern, available statutes and case law, and determined the potential outcome. If anything, I was able to use imagination and creativity to find options that eluded others.

Fine arts, humanities, etc. are more than relevant. They are essential for thinking, and applicable to any vocation.

[nashville_brook]

94. well done...says this philosophy + art grad :)

music makes a great metaphor for humanities education. it really is about listening, analyzing, deconstructing and being able to hear a familiar tune new after a thousand listens...or readings, or drawings.

i think there's a psychological benefit to acquiring this education when you're young rather than putting it off until retirement, that provides happiness and balance. i hear lawyers/businessfolk often say that they wanted to study art/music/photography, but set that aside and figured they come back around to it.

[NutmegYankee]

28. Also, not everyone can be an engineer

You either have what it takes, or you're a business major.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

81. LOL...

I love it.

[blueamy66]

30. my soon to be stepson is majoring in math

wants to teach.....read that it's one of the top 10 majors......he's a smart kid

[TransitJohn]

31. I'm a geologist

and I had to take 9 credits of senior or graduate level social sciences to get my degree (upper division cultural context, it' called). Liberal arts majors can get away with taking one science class and one math class altogether, and the ones they can pick from are easier than what I took in high school. I had a great time in the History of Latin American Indian Cultures, but if a liberal arts major is well rounded, how about taking Geochemistry of Natural Waters, Surficial Processes, or Genetics? Seems to me that they get the employment prospects that they signed up for.

[XemaSab]

46. I think geology and geomorphology would be good

science classes for the liberal arts majors.

Geomorph blew my mind.

[snooper2]

56. They should take semiconductor circuit analysis as well

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

85. Get into fracking and move to W-PA or NE-OH

geologists are making BANK working for fracking companies in this marcellus shale region.

[TransitJohn]

89. That'd be good if I were starting out.

[Recursion]

35. It's not as if kids' majoring in engineering produces more engineering jobs

There's something of a shortage (not as much as the media makes it out to be), but engineering schools are pretty good at recruiting about as many engineering students as industry needs. Having more kids major in engineering would just drive the wages of engineers down.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. actually, oddly enough, it is like more kids majoring in engineering produces more engineering jobs

which is exactly why the high-tech hubs everywhere on the planet are located where there are educational centers producing large numbers of qualified engineering degreed people.

[Recursion]

43. Then why have the number of STEM jobs gone down while the number of STEM graduates has gone up? (nt)

[Warren Stupidity]

45. hmmm....

In 2010, there were 7.6 million STEM workers in the United States, representing about 1 in 18 workers.

• STEM occupations are projected to grow by 17.0 percent from 2008 to 2018, compared to 9.8 percent growth for non-STEM occupations.

• STEM workers command higher wages, earning 26 percent more than their non-STEM counterparts.

• More than two-thirds of STEM workers have at least a college degree, compared to less than one-third of non-STEM workers.

• STEM degree holders enjoy higher earnings, regardless of whether they work in STEM or non-STEM occupations.

http://www.esa.doc.gov/Reports/stem-good-jobs-now-and-future

Employment in everything went down during the great recession. The areas of this country that have weathered the storm are generally also the areas of this country with academic STEM excellence centers.

[JCMach1]

117. China produces more than 1M engineers each yr

India right at 1M and the MENA region just under -1M

Globally there is NO shortage of engineers.

[aikoaiko]

36. I agree with you somewhat.

We can't all be engineers.

I think the question for me is not whether or not people choose majors with poor job prospects. I applaud people for seeking education for the sake of education.

What bothers me is the choice to go to a high cost college on loans and then complain about the debt. Most of them could have gotten the same degree through a combination of a low cost 2 year-school and transferring to a state college for a fraction of the cost.

On the other hand, colleges have to start taking responsibility for this problem too.

[uponit7771]

38. www.thebestdegrees.org...these jobs are decent paying and high chance of getting

[Iris]

70. haha. Yeah. right.

[slackmaster]

37. I got my degree in General Psychology and ended up in IT for most of the last 30 years

I tried doing clinical psych work and found that it was not at all what I wanted to do.

[tabbycat31]

40. Not everyone has what it takes for certain majors

I know the meme these days is to push people to major in math and sciences. Now I am someone who struggled to pass math and science in high school (did not take 4 years of it).

What ever happened to letting individuals choose majors based on their strengths and weaknesses?

[Hippo_Tron]

138. I disagree with you about "strengths", although I agree with you about interests

I'm generally of the belief that just about anybody can do something proficiently with enough hard work AND the right teaching. I suspect that you struggled with math and science more due to both a lack of interest and the way the subject is taught not being exactly intuitive to your learning style.

Math was never my greatest subject either and I avoided all college level math until my senior year when I decided to take multivariable calc and linear algebra, because math started to become interesting to me since it was relevant to my major. I did okay in those classes, although they were my lowest grades in college for sure. Of course, I certainly could've worked a bit harder and maybe spent some more time at "math lab" with a grad student who could maybe find a way teach it to me a little more intuitively than the lecturer in class and if I'd done so, I think my grades there would've been just as good as anywhere else.

Now, I'm certain that there's no amount of hard work or teaching that would make it possible for me to graduate with the highest GPA in the math department. At that level, there's no compensating for natural ability. But in retrospect I do think I could've majored in math and done fairly well.

[ceile]

44. I had to come up with a major on the spot- registration day.

I was given a good scholarship to a private liberal arts university. Get to freshman registration- no journalism or polisci major. Polisci as a minor, ok, but no communications/journalism at all. Studied history instead because it was the only other thing that interested me. I'm badly in debt because beause of loans, but I got an amazing education. I have worked in the non profit field since 2001, and while it doesn't pay great, I get to make a difference. And to me that matters.

[FarCenter]

47. Up to age 21, the focus should be on identifying marketable talents and developing marketable skills

Once the student is able to get a job and support themselves, their education can begin.

Education is wasted on the young.

[4th law of robotics]

48. Maybe we should be encouraging more kids to take up a trade

and get actual experience rather than using college as a supplement to a subpar primary education.

[Iris]

68. Sure with the caveat that they do it in a trade school

or as they are known today - technical college.

[FreeJoe]

49. I blame colleges

There are a lot of great things about being a liberal arts major. On the other hand, there are a lot of bad things about graduating with a huge debt and poor job prospects. Every university should review with every student basic financial facts before the student commits to enrolling. The prospective student should understand what the full cost of getting a degree is going to be and how much debt they are likely to accumulate getting it. They should know what the job prospects are for the majors they are interested in. They should understand what the pay is like (both median and range) for people with those degrees. Finally, the school should help them synthesize that so that they understand what their cashflow situation is likely to be after graduating.

I cringe every time I read a story about someone going deep into debt while majoring in a field with little economic return. It's great that people major in the humanities, but doing so while going deep into debt is not a great financial move. We shouldn't assume that 18 year olds understand multi-year financial planning.

[Iris]

72. The fact still remains that people with college degrees make more over a lifetime

than those without. And that includes ALL majors, yes, even liberal arts majors.

I've posted in this thread that I majored in English. All of the people I went to school with have jobs. Good jobs. In my post I used the words careers.

What you are suggesting is giving someone a guarantee. There are no guarantees in life. Life is what you make it and being able to find opportunities does not require a specific degree. In fact, the implication that getting the "right" degree is a ticket to a high paying job is causing all sorts of problems in society right now.

So, don't blame the colleges for not following your idea of cooking up some books to lull students into a false sense of security about what their futures hold. If anything, we should focus on making sure NO undergraduate goes into extreme debt for a 4 year degree.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. There are some who choose not to join the rat race and study what's interesting.

Rather than lucrative.

[snooper2]

57. Well they don't get to complain about the 80K in student loan debt then

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. Why can't they complain?

Hell, I complained about the cost when it was cheap. I think they should complain about the lack of funding for education and the corporate welfare and lost wars that prevent that funding.

[Iris]

75. Exactly. This talk of "bad choices" placing the burden on students

rather than having a discussion about why college is so expensive now is a great subterfuge, isn't it?

[Nikia]

52. I don't think that anyone should major in something that they are below average

in ability or enthusiasm for any 4 year degree. For most majors, there are a substantial number of people not getting jobs in their field and being below average without having a job given to you will probably mean that you don't get a job.
Having gone to a liberal arts college where there are is a high post graduate rate and salary, I recommend a few things for the prospective liberal arts major. Go to a college that focuses on liberal arts without too many majors in "practical majors". Go to a college with a good reputation. Be involved with activities on campus and hold important responsibilities within those organizations. Be sure to network with your professors and classmates, especially the ones who will probably be successful. Get a good internship. Learn all the basic computer applications whether or not they are formally offered at your college. If you have work study, try to get a job in admissions, administration, or an academic department rather than food service or janitorial work. If your academic department offers research project or thesis, be sure to do that.
Visit your college career center. If there are job fairs or job recruiters on campus, be sure to go. This is to help you find a job after graduation. Take advantage of it.
If you want to go to graduate school, decide if you want to be a university professor or get a vocational master's to increase your job prospects. Liberal arts majors are appropriate for law school, most business schools, library science, and many other programs. Be aware of prereqs for these schools that you can take as an undergraduate.
If you are not going to graduate school and find yourself with only non college degree requiring job offers, try to get jobs where you might be able to advance. As a college graduate, you are more likely to advance into management in chain restaurants and chain retail stores than non college graduates. A clerical job at a large company that does something that you are interested in might be a job that could open bigger doors. Some of these companies might offer tuition assistance that might help you get a MBA or other master's degree that they might find useful.
If you are interested in working for a non profit organization, volunteering might be a good step for getting a foot in the door. If you need money and cannot get a job that leads to advancement, get one hours that will make it easy to volunteer.
If you can get a seasonal or temporary position in a field that you are interested in, choose this over a dead end job that you are not interested in. It will pay off in the long run.
If you major in a liberal arts subject, you do need more of a plan than more vocational majors. It is possible though to get a good job with it.

[riderinthestorm]

55. Experts predict that 60% of the best jobs in the next 10 years haven't even been invented yet

Imagine describing some of today’s hot jobs to someone in 1991.

“It’s called an ‘app developer’. You create helpful programs and games for people to use on their mobile phones.”

“It’s a ‘computer forensics specialist’. It’s like a forensics expert for regular crime, but they investigate crimes committed on the internet and computer systems.”

These concepts would have been nearly impossible to understand 20 years ago. As technology advances at a galloping pace, the exciting jobs of 2020 are probably equally difficult for us to wrap our minds around today. Thomas Frey, executive director and senior futurist at the DaVinci Institute, wrote a very interesting article about what these jobs might look like. His research indicates that 60 percent of the jobs available 10 years from now haven’t been invented yet.

http://www.cobizmag.com/articles/fifty-five-jobs-of-the-future/

[hfojvt]

60. I sure blame myself

I knew that majoring in math was a bad idea, but I really just wanted to get out of school after 4 years. I sorta washed out of math teaching, even though I was perhaps the best math student in the program, and then sorta washed out of astrophysics (again). In hindsight, if I had been on the ball, I would have gone straight from astrophysics to accounting. But who knew that a math major would be so absolutely useless?

[Erose999]

61. My English major friend and I got jobs pretty much right out of school. I know accounting majors and

and advertising majors who have been unemployed for months.

I have a friend who graduated with a geology degree and studied igneous petrology (aka finding oil in rock) and last I'd heard he was working at Wal-Mart.

What it comes down to when finding a job is:

1.) Confidence/good interview skills
2.) Initiative - how hard you're looking for a job
3.) Adaptability - how well you acquire new skills

Few of my friends with bachelor's degrees have ended up working in their fields of study. From what I've seen, the B.A. degree in any subject is really just a foot in the door for white-collar work, more than anything else.

[Iris]

69. haha! Yes! See my post above.

I don't know any fellow-English majors from when I was in school who are not gainfully employed.

[TransitJohn]

76. Igneous petrology has nothing to do with finding oil.

Petrology is the study of rock, crystalline structure and distribution, etc.

[Erose999]

123. Ahh, ok well thats not as excitinc as petroleum then. Not a lot of igneous rock where we are, anyway

my friend would probably have to re-locate out West to work in his field.

[cecilfirefox]

62. I'm a senior in Religious Studies; people gave me the '?' line, now I'm going to law school! ^_^ nt

[datasuspect]

63. One of the first thing fascists do is kill off the intellectuals

nt

[FarCenter]

127. Autocrats of the right and left kill off the intellectuals they disagree with

The intellectuals that they agree with often do very well.

[HiPointDem]

65. because everything is always the fault of workers in this wonderful land of individual "choice".

if you "choose" wrong, it's your own fault and you deserve everything that happens to you since your teenage self was such a fucking loser.

otoh, the owning class must be excused 70 times 7, as the results of its "choices" "weren't intended" "couldn't be forseen" "extenuating circumstances" & any one of a million other excuses they use to bail themselves out of all the shit they create for the world.

[white_wolf]

73. Amen!

Seriously, all this bullshit about blaming college students for making bad decisions while bailing out the parasites who ruined the economy is really pissing me off. You know, maybe if we hadn't bailed out Wall Street and weren't fighting wars, both open and secret, on nearly every continent, maybe we could afford to help these people with their debt. After all, we bailed out Wall Street, so let's bail out Main Street.

[treestar]

74. People have to decide why they are going to college

If it is specifically to get a better job, I guess the thing to do is know what job you want and go for that major.

If people are going to college to be an educated person, that may not translate into a specific job or prepare the person for a specific job.

[bluestate10]

91. Agreed.

The deciding factor when a teen makes a college decision is doing something they love. I made my decision on my technical career when I was a 15 year old. Once I made my decision, I tailored my training toward meeting my goal. The sanest choice that a young person that is unsure can make is to join an organization like the Peace Corps, or simply work menial jobs. People that understand and appreciate the power of their time in college end up in careers that they love being in. One of my superior students, smarter than I was, during my upper devision years in college was a woman that had gotten a History degree, bounced around for a few years and came to engineering in her mid twenties. She seemed old to me given that I was more than a half decade younger, but she was focused on her education, knew where she wanted to go and didn't let minor issues deter her.

[bluestate10]

83. The only engineering major that does not get hired readily are Civil engineers.

Civil engineers are not in demand because of the paucity of funding for infrastructure. I am a person that took on a difficult technical major. I saw fellow students partying while I studied or went of to labs in the middle of the night. I love the work that I do as much as a history major or major in humanities love their work. Not one day have I complained about the work that I do or feel that I wasted time training for my work. I have done well financially, but the money absolutely has been secondary for me. As I said, I love my work, even during the high pressure times.

[TransitJohn]

90. I just came across this:

"I sure do feel for all those 23-year-old English majors who are unable to put their skills to use at their restaurant jobs," say all the suicidal 55-year-old ex-journalists who have been laid off from ostensibly lifelong positions thanks to systemic technological changes and frozen out of the job market by age discrimination, I bet.

Don't worry, young people. The inevitable progression of death will leave your desired employers with no choice but to hire you eventually.

http://gawker.com/5904376/major-crisis-23+year+old-college-grads-are-working-shitty-jobs

[nashville_brook]

97. journalism is particularly hard hit -- but that's not the only area for English grads

marketing, public relations and HR/operations management are good pursuits.

[white_wolf]

112. Grr, Journalism?

Damn it, I don't even like that major. The only reason I stuck with it was to have a job if I couldn't get into law school. Damn it, now I have to rethink things. There goes my dream of being Keith's successor..

[Odin2005]

93. Back in the day you could get a decent office job most anywhere...

...with just a Bachelor's degree, what the degree was in was irrelevant. That changed sometime along the line.

[cr8tvlde]

103. They missed listing the Major in Minimum Wage

Not a joke. Pretty much all BAs are fodder for minimum wage. Master's are, if you're lucky, a living wage for two wage earners. Phds ... you've got to be kidding, right? (Meaning you owe so much in student loans that we can't possibly pay you enough.)

[Elwood P Dowd]

107. The brilliant Garrison Keillor was an English Major and was forced

into selling Ketchup and Powdermilk Biscuits for a living.

[noiretextatique]

109. there is no "right" major

i have a degree in psychology. and even though it is a social science, i was trained to use the scientific method as a framework to test theories. i've been working in the accounting field for over 20 years with some success. however, if i studied what i really wanted to study, i have no doubt i'd be far more successful. do what you love...the money will follow. or, get a degree in something like nursing, work from 20 years and save your money...then do what you love. i think the person who loves engineering will be successful in the field, whereas the person who hates engineering and got the degree for practical reasons, may not be as successful in the field. for me, psychology was a compromise between what i wanted to do (photography, creative writing), and what my parents wanted me to do (business). my grad program in business did not culminate in a degree for me, but it did awaken my writing, and i started performing as a spoken word artist. you just never know where life is going to take you.

[Piltdown13]

110. Agreed!

In my opinion, this latest cultural meme blaming students for choosing "incorrect" or "impractical" majors (that don't directly lead to jobs in the field of study) is misguided for two reasons. First, it's extremely difficult to predict which fields will be expanding several years out -- just because you've picked a major leading to a potentially lucrative career *now* doesn't mean that by the time you get out, prospects will still be that rosy (or that there won't be a downturn a few years after you graduate).

Second, suggesting that students deserve no sympathy if they don't choose "marketable" majors presupposes that it would actually be feasible for everyone *to* choose such majors. This is a little bit like suggesting that everyone could win a game of musical chairs if they would all just run a little bit faster!

[pnwmom]

120. The other point I forgot to mention is that the non-technical degrees

often prepare students to be more flexible. People with humanities and social science degrees usually haven't expected to get jobs directly related to their studies (unless they were planning to go to graduate school). Instead, they figure out what their skills are and how they might fit in the marketplace.

I know an engineer in a PHD program now, who feels utterly betrayed because funding in his area has dried up -- across the country. He's finding it almost impossible to grasp that after 10 years of study (including undergrad), he might not be able to get work directly in his area of expertise. The technical training he's had has made him relatively inflexible.

[FarCenter]

125. PhDs are a very risky proposition

They really prepare the student for either a research or college teaching career.

The research career is particularly tricky, since today's hot topic may quickly become a mined-out, de-funded topic. Picking the school, topic and advisor are critical. Being able to play the political games and funding games are also critical.

[frazzled]

113. Unless we want a society of composed totally of technocrats and engineers

and accountants, we really do have to support the idea that some of our citizenry should be pushing the envelope in fields in the humanities—contributing to the scholarship in fields like history and symbolic logic and art and literature. And we should acknowledge that there are some people who actually like--no, live and breathe for--subjects like Renaissance literature or art history or anthropology or extinct Athabascan languages. Some people don't give a proverbial rat's ass for getting a high-paying engineering job out of college, and are willing to put in the years to enter a field like academia, where the salaries may not be superb but the life is not half bad. Not everybody wants to be an engineer, but everybody has something to contribute somewhere. And if our society doesn't value the humanities, it probably isn't going to be a very interesting or, dare I say, great society in the end. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. (I remember that from having to read Marx 40 years ago in college.)

[harun55]

116. A lot of people blame students for choosing impractical majors

In my opinion this decision depends on student and they have right to choose whatever subject and topic they want.

[joeglow3]

135. How many majors turn people away?

I got a Masters in accounting and we did not have a "set number of spots." My wife's degree is in nursing and they, too, did not have a "set number of spots."

It is up to each of us to make our own decisions, but I have little sympathy for the people I know who got degrees in History, Art, English, etc. and cannot find jobs. When we were discussing majors early on in college, the lack of jobs was discussed with them continually (including from me). They made the choice that they were more interested in a degree they enjoyed the most and made the personal decision to take on the lack of job choices. I had one friend complain about his inability to get a job and when I pointed out all the conversations we had, he quickly quited down.

[Spoonman]

137. "there just aren't enough of those technical slots for all the students who want them"

The world is not little league baseball.

Not everyone gets a trophy.

It's a sad reality that we have dumbed down our educational system to pacify the opinion you are expressing.

International students are being accepted not only for the higher tuition rates, but also for the fact that they can pass the coursework as well.

"majored in political science because his GPA wasn't high enough to get into engineering"

Pretty much proves my point.
Politicians have been "in charge" of the educational system in this country for years.

They are all idiots!