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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPope in blistering critique of Vatican bureaucrats. BOOM!
VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Francis issued a blistering critique Monday of the Vatican bureaucracy that serves him, denouncing how some people lust for power at all costs, live hypocritical double lives and suffer from "spiritual Alzheimer's" that has made them forget they're supposed to be joyful men of God.
Francis' Christmas greeting to the cardinals, bishops and priests who run the Holy See was no joyful exchange of holiday good wishes. Rather, it was a sobering catalog of 15 sins of the Curia that Francis said he hoped would be atoned for and cured in the New Year.
He had some zingers: How the "terrorism of gossip" can "kill the reputation of our colleagues and brothers in cold blood." How cliques can "enslave their members and become a cancer that threatens the harmony of the body" and eventually kill it by "friendly fire." About how those living hypocritical double lives are "typical of mediocre and progressive spiritual emptiness that no academic degree can fill."
"The Curia is called on to always improve itself and grow in communion, holiness and knowledge to fulfill its mission," Francis said. "But even it, as any human body, can suffer from ailments, dysfunctions, illnesses."
Francis, who is the first Latin American pope and never worked in the Italian-dominated Curia before he was elected, has not shied from complaining about the gossiping, careerism and bureaucratic power intrigues that afflict the Holy See. But as his reform agenda has gathered steam, he seemed even more emboldened to highlight what ails the institution.
The cardinals were not amused. The speech was met with tepid applause, and few were smiling as Francis listed one by one the 15 "Ailments of the Curia" that he had drawn up, complete with footnotes and Biblical references.
<snip>
More:http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_289563/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=8oUGCDL9
Merry Christmas to the bureaucracy!
The Pope is now taking on the heart of stasis and corruption in the heart of the Catholic Church. This is revolutionary. Nobody has dared question them or their power before. Whether you like him or not, he is truly shaking the church. Whether he ever softens on doctrine remains to be seen. However, rattling the core could help change at some point.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Or did he say anything in this particular missive?
Bryant
Scuba
(53,475 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Or was that more of a "Fuck Catholics" response?
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... those who molested children and those who helped cover up those crimes.
I'm not aware of any hard stances he's taken on the issue.
That said, Francis has moved the Catholic Church further in two years than his predecessors did in 16 centuries. He's to be commended for that.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)p.s. he's spoken repeatedly and strongly on the issue since taking the office. Example from 2013:
APRIL 05, 2013
Pope Francis told his staff to take "decisive action" when it comes to cases of clerical sex abuse of minors.
In a statement, the Vatican said the pontiff ordered the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to "act decisively as far as cases of sexual abuse are concerned, promoting, above all, measures to protect minors, help for those who have suffered such violence in the past (and) the necessary procedures against those who are guilty."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/05/176352585/pope-francis-calls-for-decisive-action-on-clerical-sex-abuse
Scuba
(53,475 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Pope Francis has been quoted as saying that reliable data indicates that "about 2%" of clergy in the Catholic Church are paedophiles.From the BBC - the article goes on to talk about the difficulty the PR flacks have with his off the cuff comments.
The Pope said that abuse of children was like "leprosy" infecting the Church, according to the Italian La Repubblica newspaper.
He vowed to "confront it with the severity it demands".
But a Vatican spokesman said the quotes in the newspaper did not correspond to Pope Francis's exact words.
Bryant
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Evidently the pope had an hour-long sit down with the publisher of La Repubblica who got a couple of points mixed up:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/13/pope-francis-priests-pedophiles-two-percent_n_5582157.html
p.s. thanks for pressing the point
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)He's just one mammal. That's it. Criticism of him doesn't automatically apply to catholics, plural.
And yes, while we're on the subject, he is a homophobic, anti-woman douchebag, worthy of considerable scorn.
And he thinks same sex adoption is akin to discrimination against the child.
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/04/11/pope-francis-kids-must-have-moms-and-dads
And the pope is a constant foe of women everywhere.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/26/pope-francis-abortion_n_5215862.html
No abortion, no contraceptives, etc.
So yeah, Pope's a fucking douchbag. But that doesn't mean all catholics are. Catholics support the use of contraceptives at a higher rate than the general US population.
There's a lot of catholics out there that are much more decent human beings, than the pope is.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)If they continue to participate in a religion that venerates "a homophobic, anti-woman douchebag, worthy of considerable scorn," doesn't that make them also homophobic, anti-woman douchebags?
If not, why not?
Bryant
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Prima facie evidence; Catholics support contraceptives at a higher rate than the general us population. (As I just said)
They want it in the ACA, even though the church sued to block coverage of contraceptives.
http://www.populationmatters.org/2012/newswatch/majority-catholics-support-including-birth-control-health-care/
And they support the use thereof.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/02/10/3270161/global-poll-catholics-contraceptioon-abortion/
So, no, I don't think it's a given they 'venerate' the pope to some level that implies any criticism of the pope, is criticism of them. They don't lock-step follow his bullshit pronouncements.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)or is it just one issue they disagree with the pope on? i.e. contraception?
Bryant
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They wish, by a wide margin, that their bishops were talking more about social justice issues such as poverty and less about culture-war issues such as abortion. When asked what matters to them most about being Catholic, they overwhelmingly say the resurrection of Jesus, not Vatican authority or celibate, male priests.
And aside from those who are paid to do so, very few American commentators can rally much enthusiasm for the imminent conclave in Rome and the usual handicapping of the papabile.
New Pope? Ive Given Up Hope, wrote the historian Garry Wills, perhaps Americas most eviscerating disillusioned Catholic. Its as if Catholic identity has become entirely disconnected from the institutional church. Im Catholic, a friend of mine explained to me. I just dont agree with anything the church says.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You could not defend any other sort of organized institution that held these views/doctrines/pronouncements about gender/sex/reproductive freedom, etc AND was politically active as the church is, here on DU without eating a hide or thread lock.
If there's another type of political or social organization that pronounced these sorts of things, that you could post about positively, or defend here, I'd like to hear about it.
As it stands, it appears to be the sole privilege of religion. Because... reasons?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)One moment it seems like you are trying to disentangle Catholics from the consequences of supporting the pope and then you turn around and suggest that any defense of this "political or social organization" should be locked or hidden.
Bryant
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Which is, again, not the members. Why is that difficult to grasp?
The individuals that make up the church membership are a much better reflection on humanity than the church, or it's leaders.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)by continuing to be members of that church. The Catholic Church in America and organizations that claim to speak for the Catholic Church can claim to be representing ~78 million Catholic Americans. If those individuals so firmly disagreed with the direction of their Church they could leave it and let them off the hook.
The reason Pope Francis has power is because the membership of the Catholic Church gives him power.
More to the point, while it's nice that you personally have no issues with American Catholics - plenty on this board clearly do, and I just wanted to ask before doing any research if Scuba was really interested or just scoring points. I have asked the same about questions of my own faith. Certainly Scuba had no problem understanding what I meant.
Bryant
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)ctise. Why they remain members of the church rather than seeking greener pastures in keeping with their individual values I cannot explain, and I expect the answer would be highly personal, and vary from person to person.
I do believe that continued membership does give the church, as a political entity, bargaining power that it is misrepresenting, and is highly problematic not just in the US, but worldwide.
Last time I spent time highlighting reasons why one might want to leave the church, not as an atheist, but in search of a better faith that lines up with the individuals values, I got castigated with 'who are you to', etc, in the appropriate venues here on DU. But yes, I absolutely do advocate it. Even the 'fairly similar' splinter faiths that came originally from what is the catholic church today, are often more progressive than the RCC itself.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If there's another type of political or social organization that pronounced these sorts of things, that you could post about positively, or defend here, I'd like to hear about it.
As it stands, it appears to be the sole privilege of religion. Because... reasons?
That is neither 'the catholic religion' nor its members. I choose my words carefully, please gin up a little more effort to read them. Doctrine of the catholic religion can be changed at any time, by the mechanisms I have criticized. In most cases, such change polls as quite welcome by the American catholic membership.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)He has a way with words.
This is getting interesting.
sarge43
(28,945 posts)Demeter
(85,373 posts)or the Pope will be a prisoner of the system. The malefactors aren't going to change, just because the Pope told them to.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Since he speaks the voice of God. Given that, why cannot he just fire all the baddies there and hire new people?
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)Only when speaking ex cathedra. And that requires significant internal consensus building.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Funny
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)Volaris
(10,274 posts)Lol I can just picture them sitting there, all morose and sad.
GOOD.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Trillo
(9,154 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)ProfessorGAC
(65,168 posts)Seems to rise above interest group status. And, i haven't been a catholic since 1970.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)...or at least I would have if this man succeeds in his goals.
Either way Im loving it. It is exactly how my old parish priest would have been had he been Pope. He was a progressive, a feminist, a drinker and the funniest guy ever. He was always happy to discuss theology as an open question, not a set-in-stone answer. Humble and caring, my escape from Holy Mother Church came quickly after he passed away suddenly and I was left with a bunch of group-think morons.
I still miss the fellowship but the other stuff...not so much.
shrike
(3,817 posts)True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)but he seems like a smart and conscientious guy.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)why would anyone listen to any of the nonsense spouted by any of these big hat poohbahs, ever?
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I am no fan of Popeaganda, but this is his job, something he can and must do for the Church to have any moral integrity. He should clean up his own house before worrying about anyone else's (womb, bedroom, etc.). And tell them to stay out of secular politics.
I hope he does.
J_J_
(1,213 posts)this perfectly describes the Republican party and minions
"some people lust for power at all costs, live hypocritical double lives and suffer from "spiritual Alzheimer's "
BootinUp
(47,186 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)very loyal Swiss Guards.
Funny what outsiders can see when brought into the home office. I will repeat what I say in every post about Francis - he has a long way to go on many issues but this is the first pope my atheist self can respect since the days of John XXIII. He is a completely different sort of pope.