General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTPP Passage Will Guarantee 3rd World Wages In US. American Workers Will Not Be Able To Compete.
The US work force will have to accept low wages in the future and we will no longer be a sovereign nation.
Obama's stance on this issue is behind the "why the fuck vote" dilemma for Dems. Clinton gave up the House on NAFTA too. Dems forced to vote for it lost.
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,939 posts)TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)Not Guts.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)the reason is money.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Arcadiasix
(255 posts)starroute
(12,977 posts)That resonates with some Tea Party types. Just ask them whether they're supporting "Obamatrade."
If you google on --conservatives tpp sovereignty-- a bunch of stuff comes up that you might use for ammunition. Here's one example.
http://inthesetimes.com/article/16196/rightwing_coalition_opposes_tpp_calling_it_obamatrade
The President said, if you like your health insurance, you can keep it, says Curtis Ellis of the American Jobs Alliance, a small conservative group based in Virginia that opposes the outsourcing of U.S. jobs overseas. Now essentially, with Obamatrade, hes saying, if you like your job, you can keep it.
If Obamatrade catches on as a right-wing rallying cry against the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP)a trade agreement covering the Pacific Rim economies of Australia, Japan, Malaysia, among othersit will probably have something to do with a sparsely attended press conference on Tuesday in the House Science Committee hearing room. Thats where the American Jobs Alliance and the United States Business and Industry Councilpro-business groups wary of trades impact on Americas national interestsjoined with Tea Party Nation and the socially conservative Eagle Forum to rail against the TPP and President Obamas support for fast-tracking the measure. The legislative procedure would prevent Congress from amending the agreement once its completed by international negotiators. Without fast-track, Congress is considered unlikely to approve the deal in its current form.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)I am sooo stealing that!
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)paleotn
(17,920 posts)...I feel your pain.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)using that link. Thanks!
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)your product, you've got to pay your workers enough to buy it.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)so that we can once again have homes, plenty of food, education and really affordable health care. The only way they can do that is through government programs like it was done before. Housing, farm subsidies with an emphasis on localization, European style free educations and a single payer system for health care. We are working on the healthcare part but have a long ways to go. Housing has come down but not near enough and they continue to cut HUD. Food is also cut whenever they can get by with it.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)to squeeze more out of us.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)Screw the customers.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)Nothing.
2naSalit
(86,643 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)advantage of a cheap work force, violating our environmental laws etc. The people, to these monsters, are just fodder, and we have some great advantages here for them IF they can overcome the standards of living for the average worker here also.
Let them release the entire 'agreement' and let the people vote on it.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Tariffs are already low with TPP countries. Even critics acknowledge it has little to do 'free trade'.
We already have 'free trade agreements with most of the TPP countries. Sticking with those FTA's and WTO rules for the rest is not a great alternative.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)This agreement is in large part a reaction to China, India and South Korea making huge advances.
But since it's a trade agreement, and negotiated in secret no less, it must be bad.
lark
(23,102 posts)Those countries have nothing at all to do with this "agreement" so why mention them?
Why would this be kept such a secret if it was all rainbows and lollipops? Answer - it's not that. Even the trade negotiators have said it had to be kept secret or it wouldn't pass in Congress. It gives away all our country's rights and regulations to foreign corporations, drives us down to their level. Nothing good in that scenario. Free trade is a total misnomer, it's freedom for global corporations to pay less taxes, pay less wages and destroy environmental and labor standards in the US.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)Particularly how it will have nothing but negative consequences. Not one thing good could possibly some from it?
And I mentioned those countries because this agreement is a direct reaction to them.
BTW, pretty much all negotiations are secret until there's something to go public with.
lark
(23,102 posts)Tell me the good that came from NAFTA? Show me how workers of the world and the US are doing better? No? That's because it's all been negative IMO. Maybe I'm missing the good stuff, because the bad is so in our face? If I'm missing something good, please share.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)They will enrich a very few at the expense of millions of us.
I wonder how we will stop it.
You know, since the politicians could give a fuck what we want.
lark
(23,102 posts)except as a source of slave labor.
paleotn
(17,920 posts)...it's about losing our sovereignty to the whims of multi-national corporations. Sovereignty over financial regulation, environmental protection, food safety, etc. will no longer belong exclusively to the states and federal government, but to an advisory committee and ultimately foreign investors. Once again, investors are protected against loss at our expense. Hey, what's not to like about TPP? I mean globalization has served us so well the last 2 decades, hasn't it?
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/11/the-tpp-if-passed-spells-the-end-of-popular-sovereignty-for-the-united-states.html
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)that may or may not be a part of the completed deal, and may or may not have even existed, is absurd.
All treaties that we enter into affect our internal workings to some extent, but kindly name one so far that has caused anywhere near the destruction feared here.
paleotn
(17,920 posts)....state unequivocally that the TPP, as presented to Congress since it's very doubtful the Republicans will give Obama fast track, does not include any such provisions. Simple and done. I'm waiting to hear just that. So far not a damn word so far as I know. If said provisions are in the trade deal, the fact that raw shrimp must be labeled in the US with the country of origin could be considered an unfair trade practice, since arguably it gives domestic US shrimp producers an unfair advantage over shrimp farming operations in Vietnam. In this case, rulings from the TPP regulatory structure would take president over federal or state law. I personally avoid imported shrimp like the plague. Under TPP, I may not be able to tell the difference.
As for your second point, NAFTA and GATT (WTO) have nearly destroyed this country's industrial base. Also, we don't play by the same rules as everyone else, ie. unlike Germany and others we have no national industrial policy other than to allow our US based multi-nationals to freely drive production always to the lowest cost countries for import into the US...American workers, our middle class and the prosperity of most Americans be damned. Ironically, it's cheap, subsidized corn from the US that has destroyed small maize farmers in Mexico, sending many to the US as undocumenteds seeking work. NAFTA is just wonderful, isn't it? Well, it's wonderful for a small few.
Wouldn't it be better if the Obama administration just came clean on what provisions are actually in TPP? But then again, maybe you profit from such trade mishaps. I hope your just under the siren song of "free trade" or OCDNW (Obama can do no wrong) syndrome instead.
Skittles
(153,164 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 28, 2014, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)I had hoped it would be good for American workers. But guess what -- I was wrong and Ross Perot was right. I have intention of making the same mistake again. Obama is just going to have to deal with the fact that there are plenty of people like me who have not forgotten how we got hosed on that one.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)are afraid to defend the TPP as you are. Now you have our attention, explain how it will be of benefit to the 99%. And then tell us why it has to be developed in secret from us.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)you don't have enough to hate it.
I do say wait and see. This is, so far, simply setting up an economic bloc to counter the looming power of China.
A lot of this stuff about limiting home rule and selling out to multinationals and Wall Street is hyperbole over normal treaty language meant to stop the partners from using local law to sneak around treaty provisions.
But, a lot of it may not be-- we just don't know.
As far as secrecy goes-- serious negotiations are usually secret. Even the cloakroom in DC is where the real work gets done.
Considering the brouhaha over what little is known so far, how would things go if every little subparagraph inserted to leverage another position was common knowledge? Would anything ever get done?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I asked my Senators to explain to me the benefits to the 99% and both failed miserably. One admitted in so many words that we would lose American jobs. She explained that their would be government money (taxpayer) to "retrain" workers that lose their jobs. I ask, "Retrain for what?"
We've seen the damage of NAFTA, CAFTA, and the WTO. And major corporations are helping write the language. Sorry but the "wait and see" attitude is suicide.
No one has even tried to justify this mess.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)all the benefits to us tend to be indirect-- and not in that bullshit way they talk about cutting taxes on the wealthy makes them hire more people.
The point is that trade ultimately benefits us all, but the question is how to best regulate it so that it doesn't bring too much benefit to the wrong people and cut others out. Smoot-Hawley was an attempt to close our borders so we wouldn't import much, which was seen by some as driving prices down and causing unemployment. It was a spectacular failure and disrupted exports and the import of raw materials and food that we don't grow here. It didn't cause the Depression, but it extended it.
Wall Street went to Hoover begging him to veto it, but then as now Wall Street was seen as purely profiteers with no knowledge of or interest in proper economics. Wall Street was greedy then, as now, maybe even greedier, and they were a primary cause of the Depression themselves, but they aren't that stupid. They saw what would happen, but, being the craven financial manipulators they were, their pleadings were ignored and everything went to hell.
I've seen NAFTA blamed for killing as many as half a million jobs, but the the jobs that would have been lost anyway are rarely separated out. We had already been in a recession and seeing the maquiedoras (sp?) sucking jobs down there long before NAFTA, but the agreement also reduced the restrictive import rules Mexico had, so our exports down there grew. That had unintended consequences for Mexican farmers, but so it goes when number crunching. So many good and bad things happened that it's tough to say whether or not it was a good or bad thing overall until the dust finally settles.
The same goes with other major trade agreements-- just ranting over "the damage done" means nothing unless you can show that there was actual damage done that was due entirely, or at least primarily, to the agreement.
The TPP has one fundamental purpose-- a balance to China as a new major economic player. It's already the most populous nation, and soon to be the largest economic producer-- eclipsing the US and Japan while destabilizing every other Pacific nation and the EU.
The TPP may not be the answer, but does anyone have a better one?
TBF
(32,062 posts)jobs to: Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam
But you are correct that China and India are not part of it. Those, however, are not the only places where we would like to increase cheap labor.
pampango
(24,692 posts)New Zealand, Japan and the other countries? There are no/low tariffs with them already. How is this worse than current trading rules for jobs?
Initech
(100,079 posts)NAFTA was about corporations getting more power over people. TPP is about corporations having more power than governments. They will officially become self aware if this passes. Think things are bad now? They're about to get worse.
pampango
(24,692 posts)follow the guidelines.
Requirements to adhere to fundamental labor rights as recognized by the International Labor Organization, as well as acceptable conditions of work, subject to the same dispute settlement mechanism as other obligations in TPP;
Rules that will ensure that TPP countries do not waive or derogate from labor laws in a manner that affects trade or investment, including in free trade zones, and that they take initiatives to discourage trade in goods produced by forced labor;
Formation of a consultative mechanism to develop specific steps to address labor concerns when they arise; and
Establishment of a means for the public to raise concerns directly with TPP governments if they believe a TPP country is not meeting its labor commitments, and requirements that governments consider and respond to those concerns.
Specifically, in the TPP we are seeking:
Strong and enforceable environment obligations, subject to the same dispute settlement mechanism as other obligations in TPP;
Commitments to effectively enforce domestic environmental laws, including laws that implement multilateral environmental agreements, and commitments not to waive or derogate from the protections afforded in environmental laws for the purpose of encouraging trade or investment;
New provisions that will address wildlife trafficking, illegal logging, and illegal fishing practices; and
Establishment of a means for the public to raise concerns directly with TPP governments if they believe a TPP member is not meeting its environment commitments, and requirements that governments consider and respond to those concerns.
http://www.ustr.gov/tpp/Summary-of-US-objectives
Brigid
(17,621 posts)That's adorable.
pampango
(24,692 posts)The "club" that actually thinks a Democratic president could want trading rules to include labor rights and environmental protections has fewer members and they tend to be much more gullible.
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)which are?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)But we don't.
I would like to do away with the free trade that we have. It is hurting us. It is only helping the very richest amongst us. It will destroy our judicial system, local control over environmental and other law and reduce our ability to enforce safe product standards. It's an awful, awful idea.
I do not think that "free" trade has been good for Americans. It hasn't been good for most people in the world. Traditional lifestyles and cultures in many so-called "underdeveloped" countries have been destroyed. In America our wages have declined while prices have stayed steady although products we import are generally shoddy.
Free trade is lose/lose as far as I can see from the results.
markme88
(22 posts)Brian Westbury "a Fellow of the George W. Bush Presidential Center is not an impartial source.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5733531
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5729833
NewDeal_Dem
(1,049 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)antigop
(12,778 posts)lark
(23,102 posts)the same way NAFTA and Glass-Stegall (sp?) hurt Clinton. Dems should filibuster this when it comes up after 1/1/15, but will they? Or, will they follow their corporate masters, not buck the Dem president, and go along? That alone could doom progressive policies for a very very long time. Faced with voting for a fake Repug (DINO) or a real one, people usually choose the real one.
Dems need to do something totally different, show some spine and stand up for principals. Don't desert the working class folks, don't let the Repugs further destroy us.
Rex
(65,616 posts)So this transformation won't be such a shock, which was probably the plan all along. The immoral class will have their free trade at the death of the middle class.
And nobody has the guts to try and stop it from happening.
TBF
(32,062 posts)right now people are having trouble living on $7/hour. Wait until it's down to $1/hour and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it because companies are immune from prosecution.
At least revolution will be more attractive then. People will literally have NOTHING to lose. If the 1% are stupid enough to pass it they will have to live with the repercussions (and I'm including the 3rd way sycophants in my definition of the enemy).
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)has been all along. Yes, it's The New Fascism in all its glory. Feudal economics with the aristocracy protected by a high-tech authoritarian police state.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)When I was 17 I made $3.10 per hour. I could afford an apartment, a car, and money to live on. Now you can barely afford any one of those things on minimum wage.
Obama has much to do with this, with his masochistic love affair with the GOP.
cloudbase
(5,519 posts)"Until we get real wage levels down much closer to the Brazils and Koreas, we cannot pass along productivity gains to workers wages and still be competitive" --- (Stanley J. Mihelick, EVP Goodyear Inc. NYT, June 4, 1997)
treestar
(82,383 posts)They are big on our sovereignty.
What provisions of it guarantee 3rd world wages?
How would we lose our sovereignty? What country will be governing us?
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)But we can't sue them for any reason.
Wiki 'investor-state dispute settlements' or google it, or read the other thread here on the TPP~
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6007139
treestar
(82,383 posts)Where's the provision that will allow foreign corporations to sue local governments and individuals if we "hurt their profits." Does not sound like language that would be used in a treaty, either.
Can our corporations sue their local governments? I don't see us agreeing to it if we don't have equal rights in the other countries.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Its incredibly easy to look up info on the investor state dispute settlement in NAFTA & now in the TPP.
Main article: North American Free Trade Agreement
A notable example of ISDS, which has been in existence for two decades now, is Chapter 11 of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). NAFTA Chapter 11 allows investors of one NAFTA party (Canada, United States or Mexico) to bring claims directly against the government of another NAFTA party before an international arbitral tribunal. Because NAFTA Article 1121 waives the local remedies rule, investors are not required to exhaust local remedies before filing Chapter 11 claims. While this fact has been amply criticized in public, proponents of ISDS tend to point out, that speedy dispute resolution through ISDS is critical in modern economic environments and would be defeated by adding several instances of local remedies. On the other hand, there is no other situation in international law where a private party can sue a state without showing that the state's domestic courts are not independent or reliable. The removal of the customary duty to exhaust local remedies, where they are reasonably available, has been a factor in the explosion of investment treaty claims since the late 1990s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlement
In NAFTA, there was no inequality. We had as much right to sue as the other two countries.
Further on in that article, there is a debate on the desirability of ISDS, factors never discussed here on DU.
And in fact it is about arbitrating disputes. Any treaty could have disputes arise under it.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Yes.
So, NAFTA and CAFTA and world trade agreements seem to be doing quite well for those who intended it would.
madville
(7,410 posts)To get a government job, they'll be the most insulated.