Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why didn't Utøya inspire the reaction that Paris has? (Original Post) Recursion Jan 2015 OP
Norway only has 4-5 million people. nt Lucky Luciano Jan 2015 #1
Killing 77 people in a smaller country is less newsworthy than 17 in a larger country? n/t pampango Jan 2015 #5
No - but harder to mobilize 3.5 million people for a solidarity march. nt Lucky Luciano Jan 2015 #10
Didn't have to google it. Brickbat Jan 2015 #2
All three Paris attackers were "homegrown" Recursion Jan 2015 #3
Yep, which is why I included "white." Brickbat Jan 2015 #6
Which leaves the other adjective preceding "man" as the critical difference. pampango Jan 2015 #7
Sadly (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #8
And where'e the outrage over the Boko Haram massacre of 2,000? panader0 Jan 2015 #4
Oh don't even get me started there... (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #9
Yes. I read a bit about it yesterday. HappyMe Jan 2015 #11
Ding ding we have a winner malaise Jan 2015 #28
this is a very good post. and thread discussion. i have been thinking about this, seabeyond Jan 2015 #12
Organized existential threat moondust Jan 2015 #13
I don't think "western civilization" has ever been under *less* existential threat than today Recursion Jan 2015 #14
Not collectively threatened. moondust Jan 2015 #20
If by "western civilization" you mean secular government free of religious privilege Fumesucker Jan 2015 #57
He acted alone, and no organisation tried to claim a link to him muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #15
Breivik has had thousands of supporters who chime in for him Recursion Jan 2015 #16
But they're not armed groups with a track record of killing muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #17
Well, yes, they are: they have a track record of killing 69 Norwegian schoolchildren Recursion Jan 2015 #18
No, the people who write to him, and are outside prison, do not have the track record muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #19
OK... so it sounds exactly like the situation in France Recursion Jan 2015 #21
No, I don't agree with you muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #22
Make up a name for Breivik's followers and I'll agree Recursion Jan 2015 #24
As I said, you're not being serious (nt) muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #26
Oh, I'm dead serious here; I think you're not Recursion Jan 2015 #27
Really? leftynyc Jan 2015 #29
You really want to go there? You want to bring up all GBV numbers? Recursion Jan 2015 #31
Absolutely leftynyc Jan 2015 #44
And that's your perception of the experience of women in, to quote you, "Muslim countries"? (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #46
That women are treated like crap? leftynyc Jan 2015 #48
Breivik wasn't anti-feminist violence muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #39
Just to be clear Recursion Jan 2015 #41
Yes (nt) muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #43
you also have case after case of murder, the mass shooter in santa barbara that do support seabeyond Jan 2015 #23
Not sure what you're saying there. muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #25
Anyone can claim anything on behalf of anyone malaise Jan 2015 #36
But in these cases, one killer left the video claiming the connection muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #37
And you know that that is him because? malaise Jan 2015 #42
I've no idea what 'covered up' means at all muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #45
I think because it was perceived as an isolated event. djean111 Jan 2015 #30
Of course it was *perceived as* an isolated incident, just like Wahabbi terrorism is in Saudi Arabia Recursion Jan 2015 #32
I do agree with you, you know. djean111 Jan 2015 #33
We have always been at war with Eastasia... Recursion Jan 2015 #34
yes, fascinating how some things just take off and others do not. oldandhappy Jan 2015 #35
Had to google it, but suspected what it was treestar Jan 2015 #38
I have to call you out there... "political-like"? Recursion Jan 2015 #40
I forgot his reasons treestar Jan 2015 #56
What about the flower march? oberliner Jan 2015 #47
The death toll in Europe from far-right terrorism like Breivik's exceeds that of Islamic fanatics. pampango Jan 2015 #49
interestingly, my son was telling me last night, they had a debate about the racism in europe. seabeyond Jan 2015 #59
I think government policy in Europe is "much more progressive than america" but many people there pampango Jan 2015 #60
it is a very complex situation for sure. in some ways, a few, it is more progressive seabeyond Jan 2015 #62
263 was already larger than 249 (nt) muriel_volestrangler Jan 2015 #61
Because it didn't fit into a bigger picture of similar incidents. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2015 #50
No comparison BeyondGeography Jan 2015 #51
I am not sure what you mean. salin Jan 2015 #52
Journalists = "One of Us" Retrograde Jan 2015 #53
People are people, but Charlie Hebdo included the very symbols and essence of Western democracy. WinkyDink Jan 2015 #54
Reaction = absolute size, relative size, intent, or all? LanternWaste Jan 2015 #55
because no one said he had connection to a group who had done this before, or would again? bettyellen Jan 2015 #58

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
6. Yep, which is why I included "white."
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jan 2015

A terrorist who looks and acts like the dominant culture is going to get a different reaction than those who are different than the dominant culture.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
11. Yes. I read a bit about it yesterday.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jan 2015

In 2014 Boko Haram killed about 10,000 people. The wipe out entire towns.

malaise

(269,063 posts)
28. Ding ding we have a winner
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jan 2015

the lack of coverage of the latest madness in Nigeria is frightening but not surprising.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
12. this is a very good post. and thread discussion. i have been thinking about this,
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 10:49 AM
Jan 2015

thru out the week of discussion. mostly.

these are the lines i am thinking. cant help it. i see so many connections with the problems we have in our society today, how du (a community of people) address this over the last couple years. being a major voice in discussing women, i have had similarities given to me. and processing that.

thank you for bringing this up.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
14. I don't think "western civilization" has ever been under *less* existential threat than today
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:08 AM
Jan 2015

Do you disagree?

moondust

(19,993 posts)
20. Not collectively threatened.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:25 AM
Jan 2015

But with the recent rise of ISIS barbarism employing radicalized Europeans and a sustained radical Islamic movement encouraging home-grown attacks with "results" so far in Australia and Canada, I think individuals see the danger and the need to stick together to defeat it.

When was the last time you heard a high-ranking French official declare that the country is actively "at war" with somebody?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
57. If by "western civilization" you mean secular government free of religious privilege
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 10:33 AM
Jan 2015

I'm not sure I would agree, at least not in America, we have our own religious nuts now basically in charge of Congress and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a similar type of person as President a couple of years from now.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
15. He acted alone, and no organisation tried to claim a link to him
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:09 AM
Jan 2015

Even those whose rhetoric he had followed (Pam Gellar, Gates of Vienna, Robert Spencer) scrambled to disassociate themselves when his writing was publicised. AQAP, however, has claimed responsibility for the brothers, and the hostage-taker at the kosher supermarket claimed he had support from ISIS, which is also claimed by some social media posts (though not, as far as I can tell, by anything 'official' from ISIS yet).

Thus there is a feeling that others also willing to kill like this are still out there.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
18. Well, yes, they are: they have a track record of killing 69 Norwegian schoolchildren
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jan 2015

and 8 government officials.

I mean, "yes, except for the spectacular terrorist attack", they have a peaceful record.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
19. No, the people who write to him, and are outside prison, do not have the track record
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:23 AM
Jan 2015

the guy with the record is inside prison. He's not about to injure anyone.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
21. OK... so it sounds exactly like the situation in France
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:26 AM
Jan 2015

A lot of people with absolutely no history of violence, and a vanishingly small group of people who commit violence.

So... it sounds like you agree with me that Utøya is pretty much exactly like Paris, except Utøya had an order of magnitude higher body count.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
22. No, I don't agree with you
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:28 AM
Jan 2015

You are pretending to not notice the words 'Al Qaeda' and 'ISIS' in my posts. You seem to be pretending to not notice them in media articles, too.

If you wanted someone to answer the question you posed in the OP, you should take the answer seriously.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
24. Make up a name for Breivik's followers and I'll agree
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:30 AM
Jan 2015
You are pretending to not notice the words 'Al Qaeda' and 'ISIS' in my posts. You seem to be pretending to not notice them in media articles, too.

Alright. I name "Al Nordro" the thousands of fans who wrote Breivik letters. Let's neither of us ignore Al Qaeda or Al Nordro, agreed?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
27. Oh, I'm dead serious here; I think you're not
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jan 2015

I think Western anti-feminist violence is a much greater threat than Islamist violence, and I think the numbers back me up.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
29. Really?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:49 AM
Jan 2015

I'd like to see those numbers you claim back you up. And do remember to include the 300,000 killed in Syria, the 3000 just killed this weekend in Nigeria when you try and say western anti-feminist violence is a much greater threat.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
44. Absolutely
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:39 PM
Jan 2015

Since so many of those will come from Muslim countries that treat their women like slaves or non-persons.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
39. Breivik wasn't anti-feminist violence
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:34 PM
Jan 2015

It was anti-immigrant. He may have been personally anti-feminist, but he said he did it to stir up a race/religion war, and he did not target girls or women.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
23. you also have case after case of murder, the mass shooter in santa barbara that do support
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:29 AM
Jan 2015

and do murder women. ALL over the world. so, meh, i do not think much of the argument that one does not influence the other, in death of our girls and women.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
25. Not sure what you're saying there.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jan 2015

Are you saying the Santa Barbara murders were inspired by Breivik? Breivik's targets were mostly children associated with the moderate left in Norway. He did not target girls and women in particular. His purpose was specifically political - anti-immigrant, attacking a party he thought had been too nice to immigrants, and hoping to stir up hatred. Rodger was personal, killing women and immigrants for the way he felt they treated him.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
37. But in these cases, one killer left the video claiming the connection
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jan 2015

and the other one has good documentation.

malaise

(269,063 posts)
42. And you know that that is him because?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jan 2015

All I saw was someone covered up with all kind of crap claiming links to ISIS which is precisely what some folks want to promote.

The credible documentation is that one brother and the scumbag in the Kosher supermarket were in prison at the same time and the brothers were orphans.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,322 posts)
45. I've no idea what 'covered up' means at all
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jan 2015
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/11/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting/

Amedy Coulibaly, who authorities say carried out the terrorist attack at a kosher market in Paris last week, has been in a U.S. terrorist database “for a while,” a senior U.S. law enforcement official says. The database is officially called the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, known as TIDE.

http://gantdaily.com/2015/01/12/source-paris-kosher-market-attacker-was-in-u-s-terror-database/
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
30. I think because it was perceived as an isolated event.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:53 AM
Jan 2015

One demented person, not a whole movement that we know is out there.
That being said, it was a bit weird to see all the demonstrating going on in Paris, at pretty much the same time 2000 people were killed in Africa, and the United States killed 60 or 80 people who just were unlucky enough to be in jail when a bomb hit it.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
32. Of course it was *perceived as* an isolated incident, just like Wahabbi terrorism is in Saudi Arabia
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 11:58 AM
Jan 2015

It really, sincerely, truly is perceived as that there.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
33. I do agree with you, you know.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jan 2015

People feel no need to march against what they are told are isolated incidents or, in the case of all the death in the Middle East and Africa, "sad, but necessary, collateral damage".

oldandhappy

(6,719 posts)
35. yes, fascinating how some things just take off and others do not.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:15 PM
Jan 2015

The Boko Haram thing in Africa is awful. Saw Salaman Rushdie on Real Time. He said the Boko Haram name means book bad which would mean that education is bad. Really hard to understand that attitude. Also really hard to understand the world not caring. And the blogger now being flogged in Saudi Arabia. Please email the embassy and protest!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
38. Had to google it, but suspected what it was
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jan 2015

True enough. No Muslims involved, no "terrorism."

And yet Brevik did have political-like reasons.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
40. I have to call you out there... "political-like"?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:35 PM
Jan 2015

I think they were pretty clearly political. He was obsessed with the political advances of feminism in the late 20th century, and with their alleged adverse affects on men. IIRC he actually quoted Lépine (of the Montreal massacre) briefly.

It was very, very clearly political violence.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
49. The death toll in Europe from far-right terrorism like Breivik's exceeds that of Islamic fanatics.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 03:10 PM
Jan 2015
Populism is defined as a political doctrine that represents the interests of ordinary people, especially in a struggle against a privileged elite. It is a potent political catalyst harnessed by leaders to increase their circles of influence by channeling the broad support of a society’s population, often by blurring people’s perceptions of their own interests with the interests of the nation-state they identify with. This fusion of populism and nationalism is behind the creation of many contemporary far right movements in Europe, in East Asia, and in the United States.

Europe’s right-wing extremism problem was hauled out of the shadows by Anders Behring Breivik’s shocking attack in July 2011 which killed 77 people. While many government agencies still hide behind the “lone wolves” theory, a 2012 Europol report concludes that the “threat of violent right-wing extremism has reached new levels in Europe and should not be underestimated”. Another report by the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism in the Hague adds that least 249 have been killed in far-right violence in Europe since 1990, compared with 263 victims of jihadist extremism.

Europe’s far right parties have made significant election gains in the last few years. In France, Marine Le Pen’s National Front won 18% of first round votes in the presidential election this year, Greece’s Golden Dawn party won parliamentary seats for the first time, and Geert Wilders’ Freedom Party was third largest in the Netherlands until this month’s election. These parties exist Europe-wide and spout localised variations of rhetoric that is anti-immigration, eurosceptic and islamophobic.

Populism and nationalism can lead to inflammatory social consequences even if introduced apart from each other. In tandem, they can cause major disturbances within a country’s political and social sphere. Furthermore, there are suggestions that the global financial crisis has aggravated Europe’s xenophobic tendencies ... The questions that need to be asked are whether widely-accepted government rhetoric about the failure of multiculturalism has created a favorable environment for nationalism and right-wing extremism, and also whether xenophobia is a tragic element of modern global society and a problem more fundamental than the current economic downturn.

http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/populism-nationalism-and-globalisation-%E2%80%93-new-far-right

The report referenced in this article was done before the Paris killings obviously so the number killed by far-right violence and Muslim extremists may be about the same now. I always have hard time not including Muslim extremists as being part of the far right given their beliefs and willingness to use violence. I think reports like the one above would be cleared to divide violence between far-right Christian or secular groups and Islamic groups.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
59. interestingly, my son was telling me last night, they had a debate about the racism in europe.
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jan 2015

so many perceive, have the idea that europe is so much more progressive than america. you know, art, nude beach, drugs, legal prostitution. so they must be a more open society.

and that is not true on the other hand. anyway, unbeknownst to me, my son was arguing this in his english class yesterday and he was the stand out with this opinion. even up against the teacher. he held his opinion and was much more vocal about his beliefs than what i thought he had in him.

so i found it interesting from different angles, listening to him tell me about the argument in class. it was fun. i always enjoy thinking.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
60. I think government policy in Europe is "much more progressive than america" but many people there
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:48 AM
Jan 2015

have trouble adjusting to the large scale immigration and resulting cultural diversity that has resulted from some of the progressive government policies. From an American perspective it is interesting that countries with progressive domestic and foreign policies could still harbor significant numbers of racists and people with an anti-immigrant ideology.

The foreign-born population in France is about 11%, almost identical to that of the US where we are used to generations of mass immigration. (Of course, despite our history we have many on the right that fight immigration here too.) In Sweden it is even larger at over 14% and in Norway it is close to 15%.

Many of these countries were close to monocultural until a couple of generations ago. The adjustment from monocuturalism to multiculturalism is a difficult one for many people. This seems to have led to the rise of anti-immigrant, right wing parties in almost all European countries.

In Norway "the total immigrant population has risen from 57,041 in 1970 to 710 465 in 2012". "The main waves of immigrants since the 20th century have been legally grounded on refugee law. Groups were escaping persecution in their home country ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway

Congratulations to your son for presenting and supporting a different opinion in class. It is great when they do things you did not realize they had in them.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
62. it is a very complex situation for sure. in some ways, a few, it is more progressive
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 12:02 PM
Jan 2015

than the u.s. and in other ways which is pretty significant to me, it falls way behind the u.s.

salin

(48,955 posts)
52. I am not sure what you mean.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jan 2015

There were huge observances and vigils in Oslo. My mother and I watched on line as the King addressed the nation. Their refrain was similar - a vow that an act of great hatred and murderous violence was not going to take away their commitment to Peace.

Thus - I am thinking that you don't mean the reaction of the Norwegians compared to the reaction of Parisians -as the reactions were very similar.

I am guessing (but not sure) that you are referring to the escalating rhetoric here in the US around terrorism. Let's see the rampager in Oslo was Norwegian and thus not able to become part of the keep people in fear narrative (ala preelection Ebola!1! Unaccompanied Immigrants who will bring Ebola!1! etc. on Fox News and from Teaparty candidates) doesn't work the same. Although in the hours after the bombing rightwing talkers were speculating that the Oslo attacks were likely conducted by Muslim Terrorists.

Or are you referring to a different aspect of the reaction?

Retrograde

(10,137 posts)
53. Journalists = "One of Us"
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jan 2015

Why so much coverage of one event and not others? IMHO, the shootings at Charlie Hebdo let many main-stream news presenters and editorial writers to feel indignation that people [sort of] like them were targeted for bravely standing up in the face of pressure and sticking up for their beliefs and all that. The same main stream media people who refuse to - or are afraid to - confront the radical right themselves.

A second factor, I think, is that Paris is perceived as a highly civilized, sophisticated place where things like this just don't happen (unless one actually pays attention to the long history of tension between France and its former colonies in northern Africa). It's not like the US where shooting up strangers is a near-weekly occurrence. And since Paris is near the heart of Europe it's easier to get a lot of neighboring pols there quickly for a photo op.

Yeah, I'm feeling cynical today. I'd like to see similar outrage over Boko Haram's doings in Africa, or ISL's kidnapping and abuse of women in Syria and other countries.

Regarding your original question: my guess is that Norway caught the perpetrator quickly and dealt with him per their laws. I remember some TV coverage of the car bomb (?) in Oslo that was set at the same time, but since the massacre occurred at a relatively remote island and local authorities were in control soon after it happened that limited morbid photo opportunities.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
55. Reaction = absolute size, relative size, intent, or all?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 03:41 PM
Jan 2015

Reaction = absolute size, relative size, intent, or all?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
58. because no one said he had connection to a group who had done this before, or would again?
Tue Jan 13, 2015, 11:00 AM
Jan 2015

Never mind why we are ignoring atrocities in Africa.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Why didn't Utøya inspire ...