Now THAT'S what I call a demonstration

[DFW]

Before I got back to Europe, my town here, north of Düsseldorf, held a sort of expanded "Je suis Charlie" demonstration, based on respect for all, and respect for the RIGHTS of all. My wife took part in it, and gave me a report.

Our town, it should be pointed out, has a healthy number of Muslim immigrants and citizens, mostly Turkish, but some Arabs.

The demonstration, estimated at first to draw as many as 2000 to 2500 people, was to start in the old medieval center of town at the marketplace. The core of the town has maybe 40,000 to 45,000 inhabitants in all. The procession went from the town square and ended up at the local mosque, which is huge, and respected for not loudly blaring the muzzein's call five times a day so as not to disturb the majority Germans who, after all, have been here for over 1000 years.

At the mosque, the Turks brought out small pastries and hot tea for all, and it ended as peacefully as it started, with about 5,000 people participating by the time the procession got to the mosque. I should mention that the local Turks are pretty well integrated here, from my travel agent, who speaks flawless German, and was born here, to the local fruit and vegetable vendor, who speaks German with a strong Turkish accent, and always greets me in Turkish because he knows I'll understand him and answer back in Turkish.

The whole event got big mention even in the Düsseldorf papers, and was praised by all parties (small p) and Parties (big P).

There doesn't always HAVE to be angry voices blaring from megaphones, it would seem. Good to hear

[Fred Sanders]

1. Not a word in America until now. Fortress America bans peacenik talk, but liars and con men are King.

Thank you.

[DFW]

2. Everyone was pretty much in agreement and no one was hurt

Not even an angry argument.

No headlines in that kind of thing, so who needs it, right?

[Fred Sanders]

3. The mass media in America are massive frauds and massively in love with war and violence.

"If it bleeds, it leads" is now the universal media mantra, along with "the truth is whatever people believe it is".

If you see a single mention of these mass peace and tolerance marches in American media, let me know, I will not hold my breath.

But look at all the attention your excellent post is attracting around here.

[DFW]

4. There won't be any million man marches in my town

A million people in this town of 40,000 would overflow into the next town!

[RoccoR5955]

5. This gives me another reason

to move ahead with my plan to retire to Europe.
As a socialist, atheist, peacenik, I'll be more at home there, than any place in the US.

[DFW]

6. Think twice, and choose carefully

There are two sides to all coins, including the euro.

Ever heard of Polizeiliche Meldung? When I heard of it, I thought someone was confused and telling me about EAST Germany, or Nazi era Germany. Nope.

What it means, is that wherever you live, you must register with the police in your town there. If you move, you must tell them you're moving and where to. When you get there, you have to again register with the police who inform your old town you have arrived.

I asked a German when I first heard of this why they needed such a system? He asked me if we don't have that system in the USA? I said no. If you want to move, you move, and if you want to leave a forwarding address, you do. If you don't, you don't. This was in the seventies, so no internet, etc., but the system is still in place and the controls tighter than ever. He said, wow, you guys have freedoms we never will have. I asked an official why they needed such a system. He said, "to be able to track criminals." I asked if the Germans considered every citizen a potential criminal, and he said, well you never know, so they needed this. I said in the States, we go on the premise that any given citizen is probably NOT a criminal, so no, we don't do that. He thought we were crazy not to.

I know, we have the NSA and modern technology watching us, but the Germans, and indeed most Europeans think this is perfectly normal and have accepted it since the end of World War II. There is some rot behind the scenes here--it's not all milk and honey.

[RoccoR5955]

9. Something like that in the Netherlands

You have to register with the town when you move. I know that it is used to track where your tax money goes, but I don't know if it is used to track criminals.
It's not a big deal to me.

[DFW]

10. The surveillance here is pervasive

And it bothers me plenty. The fact that we are catching up does not make me feel any better.

It just echoes the Republican justifications for asking for all the different forms of ID to vote--"what have you got to hide?" Answer: nothing, but why is everything I do your business? And if they fuck up, it's still your fault.

One year, and this is going back maybe 25 years, my wife went to vote. They told her she couldn't vote here because she lived in Munich. She told them she didn't live in Munich and had never lived in Munich in her life. They said their computer said she lived in Munich, so she lived in Munich, end of discussion. My wife then told them to look up our 2 daughters, then ages 5 and 3. Yep, they lived right here in our little town outside Düsseldorf. She then demanded they arrest her for child neglect and abandonment or let her vote. They let her vote.

They even "moved" her back to the town she had never left, but wouldn't erase her non-existent "former" residence in Munich. Maybe that kind of thing is not a big deal to you, but THAT kind of power in the hands of incompetent/disinterested state officials is a VERY big deal to us.

[RoccoR5955]

11. Whenever they mix up things like that

it can be a big deal. I would hope that this does not happen frequently.
I understand your concern, but these officials are everywhere, and this will never change. I guess it's a price to live in a "civilized" society.
I went to the Netherlands last October. It was my first time outside of the US. Many things about it impressed me. Things like excellent public transportation, no shopping malls, no pickup trucks, the small town feel of all of the towns, even the larger cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam (though only in parts of Amsterdam). The people there are not offended if you are a socialist or an atheist, as I am. As a matter of fact about 40% of the population of the Netherlands considers themselves atheist.
The condition of roads, bridges, highways is excellent.
The people were always pleasant and helpful. Even the bus drivers said, "goedemorgen" when you got on the bus. When I spoke a little Dutch to the folks there, they were more helpful and pleasant.
I know that there are cameras on all the major highways there. I see this as a safety issue, and a surveillance issue as well, but this tends to keep drivers on their toes, unlike here in the US, where people just drive as if they were in the Indy 500 when going home from work, and not caring about the other drivers.
The attitude that I got from the Dutch people is that they just want to get along with one another.
I would imagine that it could be that way with officials, even though I know that their bureaucracy is one of the most convoluted in the world.
All in all, yes there are some things that bother me, but I am more bothered here in the US, where people vilify you for being a socialist, an atheist, or anything not ordinary, and will just shoot you, given the chance. I only see this getting worse here in the US, and there is not much I can do about it. So I plan to move to an actual first world country when I retire. I think that I deserve that much.

[DFW]

12. Far be it from me to tell you you're wrong

And the Netherlands is in some ways more laid back than the rest of Western Europe (Denmark and Norway, too--Sweden has a scary and growing violent far right movement of which they are far too tolerant). Germans drive so aggressively that even my wife, who is German, calls aggressive drivers in Massachusetts "German drivers." The cameras are not the intusive part of the surveillance. The monitoring of all phone calls, all bank movements (tax authorities have greater powers than the Gestapo did, and they are ALWAYS right, no matter what), and all internet communication is pervasive--to the point where they don't have the personnel to oversee all the information they have. East Germany drowned this way, too.

It is also true that here, no one really cares what you call yourself as far as religion or politics goes. Labels mean far less than who you are. Dutch, for all the gibberish it might seem to the untrained ear, is not difficult to learn for an English-speaking person, though good luck in Belgium. They mangle it to the point where even some in Holland can't understand the local version of it. I have not had to deal with bureaucrats in Holland but the man who works my office there says they are a mixed bag. You can get an easy-going person just as easily as an uncaring asshole. The percentage of the latter in here Germany is much higher, and you want to avoid the ones in France and Belgium altogether. They are mostly either uncaring or downright corrupt.

Just keep an open mind about where you are headed, and realize the cons along with the pros. I speak Dutch, German, French, and 5 other European languages besides English, so I have no trouble blending in at this point, and as one who lives here am the last one to warn people off. However, it is not paradise, and you owe it to yourself to check out what you are getting into before you make the move. There are many Europeans, including Nederlanders, who move to the US, and it's not because they prefer listening to Fox Noise. If, after weighing the pros and cons, you prefer it here, then by all means make the move. Anyone lucky enough to have the option definitely owes it to themselves to do so. I was lucky enough to be the man my wife decided to marry, so I went where she went, and for now, at least, that's Germany. I'd prefer to leave the mess here behind if I could, but I'd never leave her behind, so here I am.

[cascadiance]

7. To our Turkish friends there...

Gözünüz aydın!

[DFW]

8. Evet

Çok güzel!