= new reply since forum marked as read
The Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine, widely referred to as the Kharkiv Pact (Ukrainian: Харківський пакт
[1][2] or Kharkiv Accords (Russian: Харьковские соглашения ,[3][4][5] was a treaty between Ukraine and Russia whereby the Russian lease on naval facilities in Crimea was extended beyond 2017 until 2042, with an additional five year renewal option in exchange for a multiyear discounted contract to provide Ukraine with Russian natural gas.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact
The analogy doesn't fall off the rails regarding who Germany or Kuwait invaded, that wasn't the point regarding Crimea. It falls off the rails because a majority of its own citizens don't want to annex with the US. Iraq could be a different story, there could be a significant share that would have been thrilled to be under an Iraq government to get away from and under an oppressive Wahabbi regime. That is another issue regarding that yet another oil war.
Aggressor is even more off considering Crimea Parliament declared independence from Ukraine.
The vast majority in Crimea speak Russian. In any case, you can find a significant share of the people that actually want to get away from Ukraine. Especially with Parliament over throwing the PM & dismissing 5 judges. Not to mention the IMF. How can any of that be known regarding the wishes of its people? The numbers may actually be as high as reported because I'm sure those actions changed a lot of people's minds, just not it in the way in favor of Ukraine.
It is really hard to argue all of those protestors are Russian
Last edited Wed Jan 28, 2015, 11:35 AM - Edit history (3)
How far does your deception go? I saw picture after picture of them lined up to vote, ordinary people wanting to get the fuck out of a place they were being treated as the enemy right from the start of the brutal coup. How low do you stoop, exactly? And if McCain and the rest successfully get their hard on to go to war with Russia, will you say the millions of people deserved it too, like those in Iraq and Libya did? Just how far does your defense of the 1%, IMF, MIC and weapons dealers go?
?w=736&h=491&l=50&t=40
Two women hold flags reading "Crimea is with Russia" as people wait for the announcement of preliminary results of today's referendum on Lenin Square in the Crimean capital of SimferopolReuters
Crimea parliament has formally voted to declare independence from Ukraine following an overwhelming outcome from the referendum to secede from Kiev rule and join Russia, according to reports.
A formal application to join Russia was sent after 93% of Crimea residents reportedly voted in favour of the split, in a referendum that the US and the EU say violates the Ukrainian constitution and international law.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-crimea-votes-join-russia-eu-us-eye-sanctions-1440572
With Crimea's electorate composed mostly of ethnic Russians, the referendum was widely expected to support a split from Ukraine. While the Kiev government called the vote illegitimate and other countries saying they won't recognize the outcome, exit polls cited by officials reported that 93% of Crimean voters supported joining the Russian Federation. That number increased to 95% once half of the ballots were counted. As voting concluded, huge crowds gathered in the Crimean capital of Simferopol to celebrate the outcome.
Evgeny Feldman, a staff photographer for the Russian publication Novaya Gazeta, spent the day in Crimea's main cities, Simferopol and Sevastopol, as the vote progressed under the watchful eyes of masked soldiers aligned with Russia.
People celebrate in Lenin Square, in the Crimean capital of Simferopol, after a reported 95% of people voted to make the peninsula a part of Russia.
The crowd celebrates, waving Russian flags, in front of a statue of Lenin in Simferopol.
Local residents, including a police officer, show identification to get their ballots from election commission members in Simferopol.
A woman votes in Simferopol: Little tension could be seen in the voting booths, where most voters appeared to choose to make Crimea a part of Russia.
A Simferopol voter lets her son cast her ballot during the first hour of voting.
http://mashable.com/2014/03/16/crimea-votes-the-day-in-pictures/
The Ukrainian War of Independence was a period from 1917 to 1921 of sustained warlike conflict between different political and military forces, which resulted in the establishment and development of a Ukrainian republic, later a part of the Soviet Union as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence
The Russian Civil War (Russian: Гражданская война́ в Росси́и Grazhdanskaya voyna v Rossiy) (November 1917 – October 1922)[1] was a multi-party war in the former Russian Empire fought between the Bolshevik Red Army and their loosely allied opponents, known as the White Army. Many foreign militaries warred against the Red Army, notably the Allied Forces and the pro-German armies.[4] The Red Army defeated the White Armed Forces of South Russia in Ukraine and the army led by Aleksandr Kolchak in Siberia in 1919. The remains of the White forces commanded by Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel were beaten in Crimea and evacuated in late 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War
Especially regarding the Crimea area
but this is hardly one sided
Protesters: Ukraine paying for pro-government rallies
Correction: A previous version of this story incorrectly identified the amount a pro-government demonstrator said she received in public child support. Galina Tsariuk said she receives 1,000 Ukrainian hryvnia ($117) a month in public child support.
KIEV, Ukraine — Several times a week, in spite of being unemployed, construction worker Sergey Meleshko starts his day at 4 a.m.
With dozens of other residents of Vatutino, a small town in central Ukraine, the 44-year-old boards a rickety bus and takes the five-hour ride to Kiev, the Ukrainian capital. He then marches around the city center shouting slogans and holding signs in support of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.
After about six hours, he says he receives 200 Ukrainian hryvnia, or around $24, boards the bus again and goes home.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/16/ukraine-government-protests/5435315/
(Reuters) - Thousands of anti-government protesters gathered in central Kiev, rebuilding barricades torn down by police, on Thursday as the European Union held out a promise of increased aid for Ukraine if it signed a trade and cooperation pact.
Ukraine's first deputy prime minister Serhiy Arbuzov flew to Brussels with a high-level delegation seeking billions of euros of aid from the EU in return for signing the agreement, which Kiev suddenly backed away from last month.
He said Ukraine, which is on the brink of bankruptcy, would "soon sign" the accord, but declined to provide any date.
EU enlargement chief Stefan Fuele pledged more aid to Kiev if it signed the agreement, and to help it negotiate a loan from the IMF, but gave no figures.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/12/us-ukraine-idUSBRE9BA04420131212
As far as occupying forces goes
The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet was a treaty signed between Russia and Ukraine on 28 May 1997 whereby the two countries established two independent national fleets, and divided armaments and bases between them.[2][3] Under the treaty, the Black Sea Fleet that was located in the Crimean peninsula at the time, was partitioned between Russia (81.7%) and Ukraine (18.3%), with Russia maintaining the right to use the Port of Sevastopol in Ukraine for 20 years until 2017.[4] The treaty also allowed Russia to maintain up to 25,000 troops, 24 artillery systems, 132 armored vehicles, and 22 military planes on the Crimean peninsula.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_Treaty_on_the_Status_and_Conditions_of_the_Black_Sea_Fleet
Ukranian President Viktor Yanukovych
The Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine, widely referred to as the Kharkiv Pact (Ukrainian: Харківський пакт [1][2] or Kharkiv Accords (Russian: Харьковские соглашения ,[3][4][5] was a treaty between Ukraine and Russia whereby the Russian lease on naval facilities in Crimea was extended beyond 2017 until 2042, with an additional five year renewal option in exchange for a multiyear discounted contract to provide Ukraine with Russian natural gas.[6] The agreement, signed on 21 April 2010 in Kharkiv, Ukraine, by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and Russian President Dimitry Medvedev and ratified by the parliaments of the two countries on 27 April 2010, aroused much controversy in Ukraine. The treaty was a continuation of a treaty signed in 1997 between the two nations. Shortly after the (disputed) March 2014 accession of Crimea to the Russian Federation,[7] Russia unilateral terminated the treaty on 31 March 2014.[8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact
Parliament then voted to remove him from PM & also dismissed 5 Constitutional Court judges -- http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/rada-dismisses-constitutional-court-judges-appointed-from-its-quota-337523.html
Which sparked the Ukranian Revolution. There are a lot of accusations of corruption from both sides and there certainly is Euromaiden protesters were brutally oppressed & Ukranian Revolution protesters were brutally oppressed and a lot of who isn't elected or who is elected or who is elected then replaced is all mired in cronyism. The thing with Viktor Yanukovych is he is popular in Crimea & Pro Russia pockets on the Eastern side of Ukraine. The Crimea issue was politicized long before, polling go back years suggest a 65%-70% in favor of annexation with Russia.
I don't dispute there was intimidation but he has many facts wrong in the article mention, especially "narrow majority". Also those who would vote no were encouraged to boycott the vote so that is why it is out of wack like that, but the referendum came from Crimean Parliament after they declared Independence. Any independent oversight & referendum would show majority of citizens agreeing to it.
The democracy of Republic of Crimea was and still decided by Western allies. Many of its own people as well as Russia feel that isn't legitimate especially in light of Kosovo declaring Independence was accepted by Western allies.
No doubt, the King of Saudi Arabia is complaining he never received an invitation to the Auschwitz memorial...? 
(which is of course, no more and no less relevant than your own statement)
Boggles the mind...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026042951
none of that supports my use of the term 'chutzpah.'
to be changed who has started from the absurd premise that Nazis=Soviets (Russians). There's no arguing with that degree of falsity and frankly I have better things to do with my time. Someone else said (maybe you? 
that, had Putin and the Russian Federation really wanted to invade Ukraine, it would all be in over in 72-96 hours (except for the mop-up of straggler Banderites) and Putin's T-80s would be astride the Polish border. Now I'm not advocating that course of action; I hew most closely to Russian FM Lavrov's April 2014 'federalism' proposal to resolve the issue. But I still can't help but find it amusing to listen to the MASSIVE degree of whine about Russia's 'unprovoked military invasion.'
No one particular nation was invited; rather, each country was free to participate or not...
""Had the Russians said 'well our president is coming' that would be it, Putin would be at Auschwitz. But Putin chose to be offended at not having been specifically invited, as I assume the Poles knew he would be, therefore avoiding an embarrassing situation," Mr Gebert said."
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-eu-30957027
However, I do understand the desire that may compel one to continuously repeat false and inaccurate information to better validate their own biases.
Ukraine: An Analysis
By David McReynolds
March 9, 2014
Russia has no natural barrier – no river, no mountain range – to guard it on its Western border. It has suffered invasion from the West three times in recent memory – under Napoleon and then twice under the Germans. In the last invasion, under Hitler, between 25 and 27 million Soviet citizens lost their lives. All the factories, dams, railroads. towns and cities West of a line from Leningrad in the North to Moscow to Stalingrad in the South were destroyed. Americans make much of 9.11 (and I don’t make light of it) but for Russia it was not just a handful of buildings in one city which were destroyed – it was entire cities, leveled. And then with the wounded to care for, the orphans, the widows.
Americans have never understood what the war meant to Russia and why, after the war, the Soviets sought to build a “protective band” of territory between itself and Germany. This was Eastern Europe, which under the iron boot of Stalin became “people’s democracies” or “presently existing socialism”.
Something Americans (perhaps including our President and the Secretary of State) have forgotten was that Russia wanted to make a deal with the West. It had made peace with Finland, which (again, memories are short and we have forgotten this) fought on the side of the Nazis. The Soviets withdrew from Austria after the West agreed that Austria, like Finland, would be neutral.The Soviets very much wanted a Germany united, disarmed, and neutral. Stalin did not integrate the East Germany into the Eastern European economic plans for some time, hoping he could strike that deal. But the West wanted West Germany as part of NATO, and so the division of Germany lasted until Gorbachev came to power.
I would have urged radical actions by the West in 1956 when the Hungarian Revolution broke out – it was obvious that if the Soviets could not rule Eastern Europe without sending in tanks (as they had already had to do in East Germany in 1953), they posed no real threat of a military strike at the West.
What if we had said to Moscow, withdraw your tanks from Hungary, and we will dissolve NATO, while you dissolve the Warsaw Pact.
But of course the West didn’t do that. The US in particular (but I would not exempt the Europeans from a share of the blame) wanted to edge their military bases to the East. When the USSR gave up control of Eastern Europe, the US pressed for pushing NATO farther East, into Poland and up to the borders of Ukraine.
http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/ukraine-an-analysis/
....."When President Gorbachev accepted the unification of Germany as part of NATO—an astonishing concession in the light of history—there was a quid pro quo. Washington agreed that NATO would not move “one inch eastward,” referring to East Germany.
The promise was immediately broken, and when Gorbachev complained, he was instructed that it was only a verbal promise, so without force.
President Clinton proceeded to expand NATO much farther to the east, to Russia's borders. Today there are calls to extend NATO even to Ukraine, deep into the historic Russian “neighborhood.” But it “doesn't involve” the Russians, because its responsibility to “uphold peace and stability” requires that American red lines are at Russia's borders."
http://www.alternet.org/putins-takeover-crimea-scares-us-leaders-because-it-challenges-americas-global-dominance?page=0%2C1&akid=11793.44541.Ck7lmV&rd=1&src=newsletter990910&t=3
Excerpts: In February of this year, US State Department officials, undiplomatically, joined anti-government protesters in the capital city of Kiev, handing out encouragement and food, from which emanated the infamous leaked audio tape between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the State Department’s Victoria Nuland, former US ambassador to NATO and former State Department spokesperson for Hillary Clinton. Their conversation dealt with who should be running the new Ukraine government after the government of Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown; their most favored for this position being one Arseniy Yatsenuk.
My dear, and recently departed, Washington friend, John Judge, liked to say that if you want to call him a “conspiracy theorist” you have to call others “coincidence theorists”. Thus it was by the most remarkable of coincidences that Arseniy Yatsenuk did indeed become the new prime minister. He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings. But the American media obscures these motivations by almost always referring to them simply as “pro-Russian”.
An exception, albeit rather unemphasized, was the April 17 Washington Post which reported from Donetsk that many of the eastern Ukrainians whom the author interviewed said the unrest in their region was driven by fear of “economic hardship” and the IMF austerity plan that will make their lives even harder: “At a most dangerous and delicate time, just as it battles Moscow for hearts and minds across the east, the pro-Western government is set to initiate a shock therapy of economic measures to meet the demands of an emergency bailout from the International Monetary Fund.”
Arseniy Yatsenuk, it should be noted, has something called the Arseniy Yatsenuk Foundation. If you go to the foundation’s website you will see the logos of the foundation’s “partners”. Among these partners we find NATO, the National Endowment for Democracy, the US State Department, Chatham House (Royal Institute of International Affairs in the UK), the German Marshall Fund (a think tank founded by the German government in honor of the US Marshall Plan), as well as a couple of international banks. Is any comment needed?
http://williamblum.org/aer/read/128
Also validated are the fears of many of the 'pro-Russian' people of Ukraine.
He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings.
Thanks, Octafish.
