I'm really disgusted by the lack of compassion in all the anti-vaccination threads

[fried eggs]

The last straw was that thread about a cat diagnosed with autism. Really? I've sat back silently observing one post after another mock and degrade parents who are trying to deal with their child's moderate to severe autism diagnosis. In their minds, their kids were fine until they had a certain vaccine. These people are not "kooks" as often described here. They're normal people who were blindsided by a developmental disorder with an unknown cause and no cure. Their lives are forever turned upside down.

Right now the autism rate is 1 in 68 kids, but in places like NJ and Oregon, the rate is much much higher. In NJ, 1 in 28 boys will be diagnosed with autism. 1 in 28! If a child gets measles, that child will get the best care in the world. If a child has autism, the parents are on their own, doomed to long waiting lists and crappy care.

Do any of you who are weighing in on all of this know someone personally who has a child with moderate to severe autism?* Do you know how devastating it is, in every aspect imaginable? Are you of child bearing age? I'm just not seeing any type of compassion that I would expect on a progressive site.

Just know that the anti-vaccination trend will continue as long as the autism rate continues to skyrocket.

*Edited to add: If you don't know anyone dealing with it now, you will very soon.

[onecaliberal]

1. I'm really disgusted that people have the

Temerity to believe they should be allowed to make decisions that put the lives of people in society at risk. You don't have the right to expose people to potentially deadly diseases because you refuse to believe science.

[roguevalley]

131. I'm thinking that the autism model needs to be refined. It reminds me

of ADHD. Everyone jumped on that pony and a lot of active kids got nailed. I am thinking non autistic kids are falling into that net. I don't know what it means about this but I find believing a study that was based on 12 kids by a shyster who lost his license is a poor substitute to studies with thousands who find no linkage. I think parents looking for another cause of what might just be a genetic misfortune is sad shit and especially when it exposes babies and sick people to these diseases. People need to vaccinate. In the old days if you didn't you couldn't send your kids to school. Something tells me that a significant number of homeschoolers might be anti vaxxers. Sometimes you just match your dna with your partner and get awful out comes in the genetic disease lottery.

[onecaliberal]

132. I couldn't agree more.

Very well stated.

[underpants]

2. Get your kid a shot

The autism trend is most likely from over diagnosis (perks from Big Pharma for scrips) or the food supply.

I have no concern if you don't like this.

Get the kid the shots.

[underpants]

22. Ok

Again, follow the money.

[uppityperson]

23. huh, my friend got her son diagnosed by a regular pediatrician. Her son was 3.

[onecaliberal]

32. The guy who wrote that study lost his license to practice medicine. Fuck

Read actual science actual studies that are legit. There is NOTHING in the MMR vaccine that causes autism.

[onecaliberal]

52. No fucking way will I show compassion to anyone

who willfully threatens the lives of people, mostly children. That is exactly what they're doing. They are the same as climate deniers. Fuck them

[NuclearDem]

57. You're assuming they can be swayed at all.

Nearly all these idiots believe anything running contrary to their preconceived notions about vaccination and autism is just a product of Big Pharma propaganda and corporate greed.

[onecaliberal]

58. Society will shun and isolate them.

Kids are going to die, when that happens things will change. I don't care to "reach" them. I can't reach that kind of stupid and neither can anyone else. This disease is making a comeback. Children will be maimed and die. Things will change. There is a reason all my generation and those after me until now were vaccinated.

[zappaman]

60. Study: You Can't Change an Anti-Vaxxer's Mind

The study, by political scientist Brendan Nyhan of Dartmouth College* and three colleagues, adds to a large body of frustrating research on how hard it is to correct false information and get people to accept indisputable facts. Nyhan and one of his coauthors, Jason Reifler of the University of Exeter in the United Kingdom, are actually the coauthors of a much discussed previous study showing that when politically conservative test subjects read a fake newspaper article containing a quotation of George W. Bush asserting that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, followed by a factual correction stating that this was not actually true, they believed Bush's falsehood more strongly afterwards—an outcome that Nyhan and Reifler dubbed a "backfire effect."

Unfortunately, the vaccine issue is prime terrain for such biased and motivated reasoning; recent research even suggests that a conspiratorial, paranoid mindset prevails among some vaccine rejectionists. To try to figure out how to persuade them, in the new study researchers surveyed a representative sample of 1,759 Americans with at least one child living in their home. A first phase of the study determined their beliefs about vaccines; then, in a follow-up, respondents were asked to consider one of four messages (or a control message) about vaccine effectiveness and the importance of kids getting the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine.

More at link...

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/vaccine-denial-psychology-backfire-effect

[onecaliberal]

72. Autism has been around longer than vaccines.

Thanks for your reply. It explains a ton.

[onecaliberal]

86. My reply was NOT to you. Now you can

Enjoy the dust bin.

[Liberal Veteran]

59. Have you confused "compassion" with "enabling"?

It is easy to understand the frustration of someone searching for an easy "go to" answer to the reason for autism when they are dealing with it.

It is an entirely another matter to enable that behavior when someone latches onto something that isn't true.

If, for example, instead of vaccines, they decided it was demonic possession that was the cause, would we all be asked to sit back and go "Oh, well. Mary has an autistic child. We should be compassionate and approve of her weekly frightening exorcism ritual to cast out the autism demon?"

[stevenleser]

104. That's exactly it. OP confuses compassion with enabling. Nt

[TransitJohn]

122. Again, fuck those people. If they were worried about their kids, they'd have

done rudimentary research and be aware that vaccines don't cause autism. Instead, they're endangering others' children because they have a compulsion to blame something. It's like burning books or rock'n'roll records. Zealotry and wackadoodle.

[xmas74]

79. Really?

Because they're handed out in my neck of the woods by regular GP or pediatrician.

[xmas74]

90. Not "cool story, bro".

My cousin's son was diagnosed with autism by a pediatrician. She made a further appointment with a specialist, since she works in mental health and felt that the diagnosis "just wasn't right". (It seems to be the family business. At one time or another nearly half of us have worked in hab centers, state hospitals or rehabs.) Upon further observation it was concluded that the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder was incorrect.

Don't "cool story, bro" me. It's obnoxious and doesn't prove your point at all.

[xmas74]

102. Well, they do it around here.

And she was able to get her son in "as a favor." I guess it helps when you know people and she does. She's a hab spec in an institution and a psychologist she works with actually knew a developmental pediatrician outside of the office. She was squeezed in within six weeks as a favor.

Autism is a popular diagnosis around here amongst peds, as is ADD/ADHD-both of which cannot actually be diagnosed by a pediatrician and only by a specialist. Of course, that doesn't mean that they still don't do it regularly.

[uppityperson]

110. "such as developmental pediatricians, psychologists, speech and language therapists, and others"

[xmas74]

115. In my cousin's case, a coworker, who is a psychologist,

didn't agree with what the pediatrician was saying. He pulled strings and got her child in to a developmental pediatrician, who in turn said the pediatrician had no idea what they were talking about.

My cousin works in an institution. She knows what various forms of autism spectrum looks like and knew the diagnosis wasn't right. The OP doesn't want to listen.

[SidDithers]

3. No. Fuck the anti-vaxxers..

They should be marginalized, ridiculed and excluded from the societal commons.

Anyone promoting the idea that a vaccine caused a child to become autistic should be made a pariah.

Sid

[TBF]

7. In this case I actually agree with Sid -

it would be different if it were just themselves they were hurting. Then we'd simply apply Darwin's law and wish for the best. But in this case they are hurting others because they are damaging herd immunity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity.

[gopiscrap]

13. I totally agree

after seeing my mom struggle with the effects of polio and my own personal struggle after the 21 days measles which helped induce encephalitis and also getting the chicken pox as an adult, I have no patience for anti-vaxers!

[Iggo]

24. This right here.

[MohRokTah]

28. BRAVO!

[uppityperson]

39. didn't you wrote "BULLSHIT" up thread?

[bigwillq]

87. Looks like the winner right here.

[MohRokTah]

40. The primary reason for the growth in autism diagnoses was the alteration of the definition of autism

Seriously, look at the history of autism.

[NuclearDem]

50. Right, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[MohRokTah]

53. You apparently didn't realize the terminology pre-definition change.

Moderate to mild autistic children used to be "awkward", "nerdy", "had problems adjusting" or other euphemisms. Only severe autism was diagnosed prior to the definition change.

[MohRokTah]

65. No, they are displaying anti-social behavior over pure idiocy.

It should be grounds for removal of the children by CPS.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

47. Why?

If, as you claim, 'the cause is unknown', why should so many people zero in on a pretense that the cause is vaccinations, rather than, say, some chemical in their water supply or the food they eat? Is there some reason that we need to coddle people with such delusions, as opposed to telling them, 'No, there is no link whatsoever between vaccinations and autism, and believing in such is as foolish as believing that humans have had no effect upon the changes in climate patterns globally.'

Besides, if the rates 'continue to grow exponentially', within a couple decades more, absolutely everyone will be autistic. If the rates are growing so strongly, I think that points to something in the food we eat, the water we drink, or the air we breathe. Something ubiquitous now that was virtually nonexistent a few decades ago. We've had vaccinations for far longer than the soaring rates of autism. They could at least suspect something that's actually only been widespread over the same time as autism rates have been on the rise.

[pipi_k]

138. This is the weirdest thing

If, as you claim, 'the cause is unknown', why should so many people zero in on a pretense that the cause is vaccinations, rather than, say, some chemical in their water supply or the food they eat?

When people can't give a definitive answer on what, exactly, causes something, but they pounce on anything that looks convenient.

[Warpy]

88. Guess what?

The vaccine-autism connection has been studied to death, diverting money that could have been used to study--hey--AUTISM. There is no connection between the two that has ever been found.

SO--there is no sympathy for fools who still cling to the idiotic notion put forth by a proven liar who wanted his own vaccine favored that there is a connection. It has been DISPROVEN. His article was revoked and he has been stripped of his medical license in the UK and has fled to the US.

So don't wail for sympathy. Antivaxers are propagandized, medically ignorant suckers.

Public health laws deal with the antivax crowd everywhere but California, prohibiting their children from attending public schools. Funny how that works, California is the epicenter of a big measles outbreak.

Face it, autism is present at birth. Vaccines are blamed only because some are given around the time parents can't deny something is wrong with their kid any longer.

Now that money is no longer being diverted to studying Wakefield's claims, maybe we'll see some new treatments for it come down the pipeline, maybe even a class of drugs that will increase functioning ability along with managing sensory overload.

That's been the success of the antivaxers, diverting precious research money and delaying any sort of meaningful treatment. Now their other successes are being measured in outbreaks of deadly diseases few people in this country under 45 have ever experienced. They're getting a hell of a lesson, now, and I doubt they have much sympathy for the antivax movement, either.

[Bluenorthwest]

142. It's not just California, only two States have no exemption for belief. Just two.

So it is not 'everywhere but CA'. Oddly the only States that allow exemptions only for medical reasons are Mississippi and West Virginia. The other 48 all exempt for belief or religion as well as medical reasons.
This is also an international problem, with both Canada and the Netherlands having large numbers of vaccine refusing religious groups.

[HappyMe]

141. I agree.

[TBF]

4. Correlation is not causation -

there are a million things in the world that could be causing autism. Further there are no credible, peer-reviewed studies indicating that it does.

[KingCharlemagne]

83. There is actually some data -- still anecdotal as far as I know -- suggesting causal relationship(s)

between ground water contaminated with rocket fuel and the early onset of bipolar disorder in children, at least out here in Southern California with its historic ties to the aerospace and defense industries. (Typically bipolar only manifests starting in late adolescence.) I'm not enough of an expert to know what connections, if any, exist between bipolar and autism but if an environmental trigger like rocket fuel in ground water -- I think the compounds are called 'perchlorates' -- is implicated as a trigger in bipolar, I'd be looking very closely at it also for its role in autism.

http://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2014/05/22/there-connection-between-autism-and-bipolar-disorder

[TBF]

100. That is an article about co-morbitity of symptoms

between autism and bi-polar (and arguments against it). I don't know where you see anything about rocket fuel.

Honestly, if you are going to cite something please read it first.

[KingCharlemagne]

111. Sorry, my mind was moving too fast. The info about rocket fuel and early-onset bipolar comes from

a magificent book called The Bipolar Child by Dmitri and Janice Papalos.

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=bipolar_disorder&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=26898

I put the link in about co-morbidity simply to suggest that if rocket fuel in ground water is 'triggering' bi-polarity in kids -- not proven yet by any means -- it may also be a 'trigger' or 'stressor' for autism, if the two are co-morbid.

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my first post. I was actually writing in support of your point about correlation not equalling causation and there being many possible causes of autism.

See also post #46 downthread for more support for your point from a real expert, and not simply an interested layperson like myself.

[TBF]

117. Great - thank you for the

explanation! I see the connection. I think there could definitely be environmental triggers. Love Canal and similar situations taught us so much about that.

[Kalidurga]

5. You can have compassion for people who will lose a child to preventable diseases

and at the same time have compassion for people with autism or who will have a child with autism. Autism has been around for a lot longer than vaccinations. I am betting on that vaccinations did not and do not cause autism. I think it would be better to spend the time and enegy on looking for ways to educate the public about autism and in many cases stop trying to fix the autistic, find out how to work with their needs and stop acting like it's a disorder and disability because in most cases it isn't unless one lands on the severe end of the spectrum.

[geek tragedy]

6. They are kooks and an active threat to public health.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Stupid fucking anti-vaxxers do cause disease and death.

[zappaman]

8. Vaccines don't cause autism.

The guy who said they did(Andrew Wakefield) is a fraud.

[Gothmog]

161. And he lost his medical license

Wakefield is no longer a doctor

[Liberal Veteran]

9. So, the bottom line is you can't fix stupid?

Autism and vaccination are not linked except in the mythology of anti-vaccination crowd.

I feel badly for parents looking for answers for why this happened to their child, but when they cling to garbage and proliferate that as fact, they don't get a free pass for putting public health at risk.

[Chakaconcarne]

10. somewhere in between is the answer...

Thousands of parents have experienced the onset of autism symptoms within days of getting not just mmr but multiple vaccines at once. Can anyone explain why that happens? To completely dismiss their experiences and totally side with an industry that funds their own research and makes money off vaccines is pretty lame. The flu shot alone should cause some doubt in industry funded science. Somewhere in between is the answer.

[geek tragedy]

21. Got a non-batshit-insane cite for your batshit insane claim?

You are peddling lies that kill people.

Shame on you for trying to expose children to disease.

[Barack_America]

31. No. Reality is not a mathematical average between science and pseudo-science.

It is heavily skewed towards those who accept logic and practice the scientific method.

Vaccines aren't exactly a profitable business, btw, McCarthy and Wakefield have probably made more money off of them than has Merck.

[Humanist_Activist]

34. Of course we can dismiss their experiences, because people fucking suck at being...

accurate in observations on their own, anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all unless actual evidence can be brought forward in a controlled setting.

[uppityperson]

36. 3 comments

1. Link to what you claim?

2. A friend was very concerned, trying to figure out what trauma happened in 3rd grade many years ago because suddenly he had to wear glasses. I asked when they started doing vision testing at his school and he said 3rd grade. So, was it a trauma or just being his eyes tested for the first time?

3. Drug companies make much more money off kids sick with preventable diseases than vaccines.

[NuclearDem]

44. Vaccines don't have a damned thing to do with autism.

That's been demonstrated repeatedly since Wakefield's bullshit, fraudulent study was dismissed and discredited nearly two decades ago.

[Adrahil]

89. Well, show us the evidence.

Note that anecdotes don't amount to scientific evidence. We need statistics, with analysis.

[Autumn]

11. I'm really disgusted by the anti-vaxxers. There is no proof that vaccination leads to autism.

They should be mocked.

[Texasgal]

12. Please post your scientific proof

that vaccinations cause autism.

Thank you.

[Cal Carpenter]

14. There is a very flawed assumption built into your OP

The vast majority of discussions about vaccinations on DU have not been insensitive about autism in any way.

You should have replied to the OP that included that cat story if it bothers you (it bothered me, too, when I read it). Instead, you've started a new thread in which you are trying to smear the 90+% of DUers who stand on the correct side of science and public health.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Autism deserves attention (and yes I DO know many, many people with autism of varying levels of functioning and independence) and tying it to the vaccine discussion does this a disservice.

I don't know your intentions for starting this thread but the fact is it is misguided and divisive.

you say: " the lack of compassion in all the anti-vaccination threads"



Really?

[Thinkingabout]

16. Since the connection and autism has been proven incorrect and the doctor

Who gave this false information really has not stepped up to the plate to give the truth I would not believe his story. I am sorry for the families with children with autism and also those diagnosed with autism but the connection between autism and vaccines needs to be put to rest. I am sorry for the kids of anti-vaxxers, these children are put at risk of childhood diseases and other problems which are side affects some of the disease may create. I would hope parents loved their children enough to vaccinate.

[dissentient]

17. I don't think anyone should make fun of those with autism

If anyone thinks its cool to do that, they should think about if a loved one had it, or some other disease, and then some assholes made a joke about their suffering and disease.

Compassion is a good and human thing to have, and yea, it seems to be sadly lacking in our society today.

[uppityperson]

18. no one is mocking autism, but they do mock those who risk public and their child's

health by not believing in science.

Are you seriously saying you believe that vaccines cause autism? Try this. Fewer are vaccinating, autism diagnoses are increasing. Don't you think if vaccines caused autism that as fewer were vxd, the autism numbers would drop?

And yes, I know autistic people, adults and children. The parents are firm believer in lesson their children healthy by vaccinating to prevent disease.

I reserve the right to educate and if need be mock those who have been shown vaccines do not have anything to do with autism, yet refuse to believe it.

[uppityperson]

41. you obviously did not read the list you are replying to. nt

[Butterbean]

19. Ugh. Please, just stop.

Not all parents with moderate to severely autistic kids think this way. Me being one of them. My kid isn't autistic because of vaccinations, ffs. He's autistic because he was born that way.

I hate it when the anti-vaxxers use me and my kid's autism as cannon fodder in their ridiculous crusade.

[Barack_America]

20. There is no link between vaccines and autism. None.

I have full sympathy and support for parents of autistic children. I support their cause to discover the TRUE origins of autism.

I have no sympathy for parents who would risk their child's life and the lives of others by willfully ignoring medical science and refusing to vaccinate their children against some of the most infectious and deadly diseases in the history of man.

[MohRokTah]

25. Autism and vaccines have precisely NOTHING to do with each other.

Any attempts to connect the two is pure nuttery.

End of discussion.

[Strelnikov_]

26. As am I. Avoiding vaccinations makes no sense from a risk management standpoint

A really uninformed decision.

But what truly disgusts me is the crass and mean spirited nature of the discussion.

Just another example that this country does not have a right or a left problem . . . it has an asshole problem.

[Adrahil]

27. And the evidence shows NO connection between vaccines and autism.

I feel sorry for parents dealing with autism.

That sympathy does not extend to anti-science bullshit fueled by emotion.

[on point]

29. Autism has nothing to do with vaccines. Stop pushing ignorance.

[sakabatou]

156. +1

[MohRokTah]

30. .

[Barack_America]

35. ROFL.

Seriously good.

[chrisa]

37. But autism has nothing to do with vaccination. The two shouldn't even be associated.

[loyalsister]

43. Yes. And I know adults with autism

One of whom is very angry that his condition has been so devalued by a movement that is using it to justify a completely irrational and damaging point of view.
It's no accident that they seized on "every parents worst nightmare" and in doing so perpetuate stigma and stereotypes. It seems to me that the parents who can't see their children's lives outside of their own experience are the ones who were duped. That starting position is one for which I am not inclined to have a lot of sympathy.

[Agnosticsherbet]

45. Autism begins in the womb, according to a new study (2014)

The important point in your post is when you noted "in their minds." Parents convinced that their children have autism by one flawed paper i n which the Scientist has been found to falsify conclusions and had deep ethical issues are not helping their children or the children of others by clinging to a false conclusion.

Autism begins in the womb, according to a new study

Parents who cling to that deeply flawed study after numerous other scientific studies have shown that vaccines do not cause problems an that the problems actually occur in the womb and refuse to vaccinate their children endanger the health and the lives of their own and other parent's children.

[phylny]

46. I'm a speech-language pathologist, and I work with children with autism all day.

In my experience, I have worked with kids who've never been vaccinated and yet have been diagnosed with severe autism. I have kids who have been vaccinated as well.

Most likely we'll find a genetic predisposition with a myriad of environmental triggers - pollution, pesticides, etc. The genetic variation might even be linked to a pandemic 100 years ago.

I have all the compassion for families of children who are diagnosed. I do not have much compassion for people who don't vaccinate their children. So, what is worse? Having a child with autism, or having an unvaccinated child come down with a preventable disease that might kill the child?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

97. Toddler mode?

You clearly don't understand fucking autism. And before you fucking ask, my daughter is on the spectrum. She's a very bright 9 year old. She learns at a 6th grade level, but she's only in 3rd grade. Toddler mode my ass. You the one being insensitive to those with autism.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

113. My friends son is asd as well

He's 15. He was nonverbal until he was 8. Now he's in regular classes and has taken a strong interest in music. He's also synesthesia. Behavioral therapy is a thing. Like I said, you apparently know nothing about asd.

My daughter is high functioning, but she has extreme meltdowns that do not allow her the luxury of gen ed public schools. She's in a specialized school, learning at her own pace.

Also, vaccines don't cause autism, so fuck that noise. I don't care what some douchebag parent thinks. Vaccines didn't cause their child's autism.

[LisaL]

101. It's not a choice. There is no connection between vaccines and autism.

Don't spread the ignorance.

[lunamagica]

109. Yes, it is a serious question

This is the story of how Roald Dahl lost his littledaughter to measles:

"Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

“I feel all sleepy,” she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.

On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.

"

full story at http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/02/the-saddest-story-roald-dahl-ever-wrote-about-his-daughters-death-from-measles-and-is-worth-reading-today/?tid=sm_fb

This kind tragedy can be prevented today. The correlation between vaccines Autism hasnever been anything but pure speculation. Measles being a disease that can cause disability and kill is a proven fact. a reality.

[uppityperson]

116. people with autism are "stuck in toddler mode for life"?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

127. The OP shows his complete ignorance

About autism, while simultaneously insulting people with autism.

The lengths that antivaxxers go to show their ass.

[uppityperson]

129. it is something.

OP

I'm really disgusted by the lack of compassion in all the anti-vaccination threads

The last straw was that thread about a cat diagnosed with autism. Really? I've sat back silently observing one post after another mock and degrade parents who are trying to deal with their child's moderate to severe autism diagnosis. In their minds, their kids were fine until they had a certain vaccine. These people are not "kooks" as often described here. They're normal people who were blindsided by a developmental disorder with an unknown cause and no cure. Their lives are forever turned upside down.

Right now the autism rate is 1 in 68 kids, but in places like NJ and Oregon, the rate is much much higher. In NJ, 1 in 28 boys will be diagnosed with autism. 1 in 28! If a child gets measles, that child will get the best care in the world. If a child has autism, the parents are on their own, doomed to long waiting lists and crappy care.

Do any of you who are weighing in on all of this know someone personally who has a child with moderate to severe autism?* Do you know how devastating it is, in every aspect imaginable? Are you of child bearing age? I'm just not seeing any type of compassion that I would expect on a progressive site.

Just know that the anti-vaccination trend will continue as long as the autism rate continues to skyrocket.

[tammywammy]

49. What other anti-science views should I show compassion for?

[0rganism]

51. and it continues in this thread

look at the replies! it's like people didn't even read what you posted

PEOPLE!
of course, corellation isn't causation, and there aren't any peer reviewed studies to conclusively link vaccines to autism. now put yourself in the position of a person who vaccinated their child and 6 months later has their child diagnosed as autistic -- maybe you're going to calmly observe the situation and say "there's no evidence that the vaccines caused this condition" or maybe you're going to look on the internet and get the idea that vaccines cause autism because it's been spread around a lot. or maybe you mention it to a relative who watches Faux and they link you to the idea that vaccines cause autism.

frankly, after living on this planet among my fellow humans for many years, my confidence in people generally to be able to discern quality information from bullshit is rather low. even people who are quite well versed in one or two scientific fields can end up succumbing to ... shall we say... less than reputable sources when it comes to other things.

and when one's own child is at risk, calmness and rationality are among the first things that go out the window.

so i'm not surprised that a parent in this situation might add to the chorus of voices claiming, without sound justification, that vaccines cause autism.

and now put yourself in the position of a new parent. you know that vaccination is said to play a role in preventing your child from getting diseases like measles. on the other hand, you've heard all kinds of people talking about how it causes autism, you've never been in the middle of a measles outbreak, but autism is all around you, and you're faced with a choice. think about it for a while honestly. does it surprise you that people can go either way on that choice? concern for the overall immunity of society at large doesn't even enter into the calculation for most people, and for some who do think about it, vaccine promotion seems like nothing more than a scam by profit-mongering corporations playing both ends of the game (vaccines and later medication for autistic people)

OP is quite correct: "the anti-vaccination trend will continue as long as the autism rate continues to skyrocket"

those of you shouting him/'her down need to learn empathy and reading comprehension.

[NuclearDem]

55. Except absolutely fucking no one would have been thinking about autism and vaccines

if it weren't for the anti-vaccination jackasses in the first place. They're the people who deserve every last ounce of scorn for further endangering children by exposing them to measles, mumps, and rubella.

[0rganism]

62. and i pretty much agree with you

there was a time, many years ago, when the anti-vax thing could have been stopped by neutering the anti-vaccination jackasses' ideas through refutations like "corelation isn't causality" and "there are no peer reviewed studies supporting such a position". that time has passed.

now the idea is part of the same cultural consciousness that tells us Taco Bell is nutritious and tax cuts are good for the economy. it must be countered with both a strong PSA campaign and direct societal repercussions. telling someone who's bought into the idea what an idiot they are on an internet forum is useless at best.

You can't reason a person out of a position they didn't arrive at by reason in the first place.

[Chemisse]

73. I agree with you on this.

The extreme anger toward the anti-vaxxers is not helpful. They are not idiots. They have bought into an idea - a parenting fad, if you will - which will likely recede through education and awareness.

All the anger and fist shaking is just a waste of energy. It's uncommon for someone to be persuaded by that, and in fact is more likely to make people dig in their heels.

[bettyellen]

126. if they make important health decisons for their kids on the basis of "fads"

they are indeed idiots. Callous idiots who choose rumours and gossip as a source for their medical advice.

[Arugula Latte]

148. They are indeed idiots.

And they are endangering other people. Selfish morons who willfully ignore legitimate peer-reviewed studies for idiotic debunked mythology boosted by Jenny McCarthy do not deserve kid-glove handling anymore. Enough is enough.

[Butterbean]

74. Compassion is fine. Supporting them in conspiracy theories is not.

I have *been* the new mom who cried in the pediatrician's office, torn over vaccinating my kid. I have also been the mom who just got the autism diagnosis for her 2 year old who had been showing very clearly that he was autistic since he was about 12 months old. I have walked in those shoes, and have talked to many many moms since then who have done the same. I can show compassion for those parents without indulging in the crazy and supporting their conspiracy theories. When my local autism society hosted Wakefield here as a speaker, for example, you bet your butt I was one of the many people who called the state office and told them that I didn't want the Autism Society's name associated with that cretin and that if the tinfoil hat wearing crowd wanted to hear him speak, they could pay for it without ASNC funds.

Compassion? Yes. Support of crazy? No.

[Liberal Veteran]

76. Thank you.

[0rganism]

84. would you agree that this is a social problem that must be addressed on a societal scale?

i admire your strength of spirit, will, and cognition under very difficult circumstances.

now look at who's supporting what. you said it yourself:
"When my local autism society hosted Wakefield here as a speaker"

you can bet that your local autism society hosted Wakefield because someone on the planning committee thought he had answers. people want to hear answers, especially when they've been hit hard by tragedy and misfortune. i don't blame people under circumstances such as those you endured for succumbing to snake oil of various kinds; that's instinctive behavior or something closely akin to it.

when people are faced with that situation and hear one voice saying "we don't have the answers yet" and another saying "here it is!" i can't blame them for turning to the second voice in desperation.

and that is why, imho, we need a pro-vaccination PSA campaign, direct repercussions for those who can't show adequate vaccination records, considerably more R&D into the actual causes of autism, and patience with those who've been injured by the persistent ideas of hucksters who may themselves have moved on long ago.

[Butterbean]

91. Yes, I get what you're saying.

I am trying more and more in my every day life to extend compassion to people even when I disagree with them. It's really really REALLY hard when they do stuff that directly endangers others and is life threatening.

Yes, I get what you're saying, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar, and you're right.

As for my local ASNC chapter hosting Wakefield, that has a lot to do with where I am located and the particular population of parents near me. I am very close to Chapel Hill NC, and a LOT of parents don't vaccinate here. My various social groups run the gamut between home birthing home schooling vegan non vaxing atheists to evangelical christians who are about as mainstream as they come. It has made me very adept at holding my tongue in public. I tend to only let my hair down on the internet.

[mythology]

119. If people aren't willing to think logically and read the available evidence

then no I don't care that their grief is making them make stupid choices.

Yes I get that it's incredibly difficult to support a person who has severe autism. But to then take that grief and not turn it toward something useful is at best silly. The evidence is clear that there is no relationship between vaccines and autism. To insist that it is, delays doing something useful like getting the child into the necessary therapy. It distracts money that could be going to solve autism to having to debunk incompetent theories.

I have the same level of respect for Republicans who say "I'm not a scientist" before claiming climate change isn't real. People who ignore evidence and make poor choices because of it who only impact themselves is one thing. But not getting vaccines impacts other people. Claiming that autism is caused by vaccines prevents people from getting vaccines.

[TransitJohn]

125. My empathy and reading comprehension are just fine, thank you very much.

I just disagree with enabling batshit crazy dangerous decisions. You confuse disagreement with the OP's basic premise with 'shouting down,' a sentiment all too common anymore in the disappointing echo chamber that DU has become over the last 6 or 7 years.

[vankuria]

61. Has anyone ever known a child whose mom had measles while pregnant with them?

I have and it's not pretty. I worked with developmentally disabled adults born prior to the MMR vaccine, their developmental disabilities traced directly to their moms having measles while pregnant. Disabilities ranged from severe to profound, many in wheelchairs, blind, deaf and suffering from a range of illnesses.

[xmas74]

92. I did the same kind of work.

I worked in a state hospital with individuals born pre-vaccine. It was horrible. Some were at birth (mother contracted during pregnancy) while others contracted as a small child.


To those so worried about MMR vaccines: spend a day in a place like that and you'll be begging for the vaccines.

[vankuria]

94. Right On xmas74!

[xmas74]

103. Of course the OP is arguing with me upthread

because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Chemisse]

64. If the vaccinations actually did cause some cases of autism,

I would be on here defending the anti-vaxxers.

But the evidence is squarely against this, and that has been clear for a number of years now.

[arikara]

66. I'll rec this thread

I swear the pharmaceutical companies have co-opted DU, I'm sick of all these stupid rabid vax threads. I don't click on the obvious ones but they are even hiding them now.

[zappaman]

68. "I swear the pharmaceutical companies have co-opted DU"

[NuclearDem]

71. Yes, because people sick of anti-science bullshit

are really just shills of Big Pharma.

[Liberal Veteran]

107. I beg your pardon? Where is the 100% safe meme being blindly repeated?

You are just making shit up with that. When it comes to vaccines, they have a safety record that is pretty damn good. Not 100%, but very very safe.

[fishwax]

67. I know several parents with autistic children, and *none* of them support the anti-vaxxers

You seem to assume there is little or no overlap between the population of people affected by autism and the population who would ridicule or attack the anti-vaxers. In my case, there is considerable overlap. None of the people I know with autistic children in their family blame it on the vaccine. Most of them resent the anti-vax movement, which they see as adding to an already large mountain of misinformation about autism.

[PumpkinAle]

70. Really, because there could possibly be nothing else that would cause autism?

And I know a couple of children who have autism - and their parents acknowledge it was not caused by vaccines.

Genomic research is beginning to discover that people with autism spectrum disorders probably share genetic traits with individuals with ADHD (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder), bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or clinical depression. A team at the Cross Disorders Group of the Psychiatric Genomic Consortium suggests that the five mental disorders and illnesses have the same common inherited genetic variations.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/info/autism/

[Ruby the Liberal]

75. ASD is not contagious - or deadly.

[xmas74]

77. I worked in mental health for six years.

I worked in a habilitation center. We had a number of people with autism spectrum disorders-all diagnosed long before there was even an MMR vaccine. I also saw individuals who were suffering from damages of diseases that can now be prevented with a vaccine.

My brother and his wife are expecting a baby at the end of the month. Until that baby is old enough to be vaccinated she will be at risk of catching diseases that can be easily prevented with a vaccine. A coworker's child is currently receiving cancer treatments and cannot be vaccinated. Herd immunity works when those who CAN be vaccinated ARE vaccinated-not when people pick and choose, thinking their child doesn't need it.

My child has received every single vaccination-every one I could get my hands on. We co-slept, did a form of attachment parenting before I knew what it was, constantly read, spent loads of time outdoors instead of in front of the tv, gardened and preserved my harvest, amongst other things. I did things as healthy as possible for my child yet I chose to vaccinate.Why? Because I saw what could happen without it.

BTW-I have an old friend whom also worked at the hab center. She had her first and only child at the age of 44. He was later diagnosed with autism spectrum. Does she blame vaccines? No.

[shenmue]

80. Wakefield was lying.

Is that hard to understand?

[rjsquirrel]

82. Nope

They are kooks. Selfish, irrational kooks.

Irrespective of their kids having autism or not, it is established scientific fact that this has zero zip zilch nada to do with any vaccine.

We don't have much sympathy who leave guns lying around and then have dead kids.

It's the same.

Sorry if your kid isn't well. Don't punish everyone else's kids for your ignorance about the subject.

No quarter can be given on dangerous pseudoscientific billshit.

[Avalux]

98. I'm really disgusted by the lack of compassion for those who might be affected by

your decision to not vaccinate your kids.

Do you know a child who has contracted polio and had to suffer with that? Do you know a child who died from the measles? My brother almost did. Do you know a child who died from smallpox? No you don't - because successful global vaccination eradicated that horrific disease.

I can give it right back at you.

Unless you can show me evidence that vaccines cause autism, shut the fuck up. And quit using autism to prop up your straw man.

[Vattel]

99. Clearly there is no evidence that vaccinations cause autism,

and of course you did not claim otherwise. I agree with you that the lack of compassion demonstrated in this thread and others is appalling.

[LisaL]

108. Compassion for what?

People with irrational beliefs? We are supposed to have compassion for them?

[Liberal Veteran]

114. I think what they are trying to ask us to do is enable their irrationality.

And call that compassion.

[Vattel]

123. If I didn't have compassion for people with irrational beliefs,

there wouldn't be very many people left to have compassion for.

[NCTraveler]

149. Very very true.

Statements like that are ones I truly try to embrace in life. I do try. I often fail. Compassion should be something given freely. Not something we should expect others to earn.

[nakocal]

105. My son has Autism. Vaccinations DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM

My son has Autism. Vaccinations DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. Lack of vaccinations can kill, and not necessarily the child whose parents were too fucking stupid to get their child vaccinated. Justifying the murder of other peoples children because you believe in the lie that vaccinations cause autism is NOT acceptable.

And if you really want to help the families of children with autism, support single payer health care. Help support schools so that they can have a good special needs program. Be willing to have less of your tax money go to billionaires and more to the needy.

[xmas74]

112. Bravo!

I would rec this so many times over if I could.

A friend/former coworker's son has autism. She's never once blamed vaccines. We met while working in a state hospital and saw the damage that a lack of vaccinations could do.

What does she blame? A combo of her age (44 when she had him), possibly her prior history of drug addiction (former meth addict who did a fantastic job of cleaning herself up and keeping clean), maybe a environmental factor (there are a number of diagnosed in her area) and, as she put it, "it is what it is-maybe genetics." In the end she figures it's a number of things, many of which were out of her control, but she's never once blamed vaccinations.

[bluestateguy]

118. Ok, fine

But just because something bad has happened to you, doesn't give you the right to just brush aside facts that you don't like. You don't have some special moral authority to ignore facts just because your child has been diagnosed with autism.

It's like that woman in Michigan last year that was in those stupid ads funded by the Koch brothers. She is a leukemia patient and blaming Obamacare for costing her too much money. When confronted with her misinformation and the provisions of the ACA that actually saved her money, she simply said that she didn't personally believe that, and went on making her fantasy argument.

You can't do that and expect to get away with it just because you are going through some hardship.

[TransitJohn]

121. What does any of that have to do with blaming autism on vaccination being fucking stupid?

[distantearlywarning]

124. No.

I'm sick to death of enabling stupid, stubborn people with poor critical thinking skills. Everyone in this country needs some basic science education, not more "compassion".

[Skittles]

128. my brother is severely autistic

and I think anti-vaccers are NUTCASES

vaccinations have NOTHING to do with autism

[dem in texas]

130. Where do you get your facts?

I am always suspicious of people who throw out facts and figures without backing them up. The strange facts you quote sound like fiction. More autism in NJ????

Don't say I don't now anything about autism, I have a 54 year nephew who is autistic. Both his parents are deceased and his aunts and uncle (my family) are now looking after him.

[Aristus]

133. Sorry. No compassion. They're kooks.

And they are deliberately endangering the children of others.

I'd like to see numbers on the percentage of parents with children who have autism who don't blame vaccines for it. But instead use reason and good judgment when it comes to caring for their children. Those are the ones I have compassion for. I'm also reserving my compassion for the people whose children are right now contracting measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases.

People with the disease of stupidity, I have no compassion for...

[LanternWaste]

134. People were also disgusted by Mark Twain and Voltaire for mocking deeply held beliefs

People were also disgusted by Mark Twain and Voltaire for mocking, without compassion, deeply held beliefs that had little value in a rational world.

[SidDithers]

144. Tim Minchin has a great couple of lines in his song "White wine in the Sun"...

I don't go in for ancient wisdom
I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they're worthy

Sid

[Orsino]

135. That was your takeaway?

Astonishing.

[Arugula Latte]

136. This autism myth has been debunked time and time again in peer-reviewed studies.

Yet, people choose to ignore that and stick with "Jenny McCarthy sez so!" It's fucking insane. So, yeah, we don't have a lot of compassion for willfully ignorant idiots who are bringing back once nearly eradicated and fully terrible diseases.

[LannyDeVaney]

137. Apples and oranges.

So folks that have an autistic child, "a developmental disorder with an unknown cause" (your words) ... besides forgoing vaccines, what else do they forego? Are they so sure that the vaccines cause autism that they otherwise go about their life normally?

You know, for something with an unknown cause, these folks sure seem to know what the cause is.

[Lancero]

139. Judging by the amount of posts fried eggs deleted...

I guess his goose got cooked?

[we can do it]

140. I'm disgusted by the anti-science nutbags putting everyone at risk needlessly.

The vaccines have been used for 40+ years. Maybe Facebook is the cause of the recent spike in autism, it's something more recent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. Autism sucks and it has an environmental trigger.

The identity of those triggers are unknown, and everything should be on the investigative table. Unfortunately, the most promising study of this was cancelled last year.

What we do know is that vaccines do prevent disease, and very little if any direct evidence that they cause autism.

Studies show that the rate of increase is due to environmental effects. The biggest limitation of these studies is that they are based on twin studies which attribute genetic causes to disorders that may have been caused by shared prenatal environment.

[onecaliberal]

163. This is a great comment.

If these people were really so concerned they would be trying to ban together to find the real cause by raising money and awareness for more research. Not endangering society by spreading their junk science and pretending it's a personal choice. You don't get to take it upon yourself to subject people to a potentially deadly illness.

[Bluenorthwest]

145. My compassion is reserved for the children endangered by the fearful stupidity of their parents.

Not sure why you are compassionate toward those withholding protection from innocent kids.

[adigal]

146. There is zero evidence that vaccines cause autism...Jenny McCarthy doesn't have a Phd in Science

And the children I know who have autism were different than "normal" kids well before their MMR vaccines. They had noticeable differences from very young, but around the time of talking many parents can no longer deny the differences.

[Douglas Carpenter]

147. I feel sorry for all the parents who have been falsely led to believe that vaccinations caused their

children's autism. They are no doubt a vulnerable population who can easily be manipulated.

Until the 1990's very few people even in the world of psychology or psychiatry knew anything about Autism. Most severely autistic children were diagnosed with either childhood schizophrenia or mental retardation. The most common sited cause was "refrigerator mothers." It was orthodoxy back in the dark ages of the 50's and 60's to believe autism or as it was commonly known Childhood Schizophrenia was caused by emotionally distant mothers. But most classically autistic children were simply presumed to be simply mentally retarded and they end up in such programs. It was only in the early 90's that psychiatry and neurology came to recognize the more mild forms of Autism sometimes called High Function Autism or Asperger's Syndrome. This growth of knowledge resulted in an awareness that a much higher percentage of the population than previously was imagined have some form of Autism.

So the most likely explanation for the massively increased numbers of people with an Autism diagnoses is simply increased awareness and increased understanding of what Autism is from its mild forms to its most severely debilitating forms.

Under the DSM-5 the American Psychiatric Association guidelines for diagnoses - they now define Autism Spectrum Disorder from Level 0 to Level 3. Level 0 indicates someone with Autism characteristics but is not impaired and is in no need of any special support. Level 1 indicates someone who meets the Autism Spectrum Criteria and suffers some impairment and is in need of some support. Level 2 Indicates someone who quite profoundly meets the Autism Spectrum Disorder Criteria and is in need of substantial support. Level 3 - Indicates someone who is profoundly impaired by their autism and is in need of very substantial support.

Here is a more detailed PDF file on the matter:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychiatry.org%2FFile%2520Library%2FPractice%2FDSM%2FDSM-5%2FClinicianRatedSeverityOfAutismSpectrumAndSocialCommunicationDisorders.pdf&ei=YrxxVIzVONS1oQS-p4DIAQ&usg=AFQjCNG8tm7imUhaLlmY5UVt8YNr-N2YNw&sig2=Yuql_5qyhgWl5pWcZFwyGw&bvm=bv.80185997,d.cGU

[Rex]

150. Oh look who it is, fried eggs.

[Arugula Latte]

160. Funny, the replies of the Ghost Poster have magically disappeared!

[randr]

152. I do have friends with autistic children

and they are deeply offended by the suggestion that they may have caused their child's autism by doing what we all need to do to protect our children from crippling illnesses. They are far more engaged with the issue and know full well how damaging misinformation can affect their situation.

[kiva]

153. And I'm disgusted by cowards who post flamebait,

stir the pot by making provocative posts, then self-delete so their posts don't get hidden.

The difference is that playing the self-delete game won't infect, sicken, and possibly kill other people.

[bravenak]

154. I have an autistic child and a dead child.

I like Autusm better. Period. So, vaccinate your fucking kids so another one of mine doesn't die. Thanks!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

155. So the EBOLA virus or Marburg Virus or Hantavirus breaks out and a pandemic is possible

if everyone doesnt vaccinate.

A. do you vaccinate your loved ones

B. how comfortable are you that your neighbor can CHOOSE not to, thus risking your life, your children, etc.

C. would you agree that the vaccination will have to be mandatory for the obvious reasons

?

[WDIM]

158. The cat with autism was very bad taste.

I do agree that post was insulting to parents of autistic kids.

[Cary]

159. You have a tenuous nexus here at best

You have two issues: 1) the efficacy of the anti-vaccination argument; and 2) your claim of lack of compassion for people who have children with autism. The only connection is that there are some people with children who have autism who blame the affliction on vaccinations. That doesn't account for people who do not have children with autism but blame the affliction on vaccinations. Nor does it actually connect you claim of lack of compassion in any way.

I have plenty of compassion for people who have children with autism. I don't see how that excuses them from the need to have a reasonably objective argument when they advocate against vaccinations on whatever grounds.

Your argument here is a non-sequitur.

[F4lconF16]

162. Please.

You know what's a lack of compassion? Telling all the autistic people out there that it's better to be dead of a preventable disease than be autistic. Just imagine, for a second, that you are autistic. How do you think you'd feel if your parents went on a crusade against vaccines because of this?

I'll give you a hint:
It fucking sucks.

Read this if you don't believe me:
http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/human-interest/autistic-womans-heart-wrenching-facebook-post-wins-the-anti-vaxxing-argument/

The anti-vaxxers are harming themselves, their kids, and everybody around them. I have much compassion for their children, but absolutely no tolerance, no respect, and no compassion for them and their idiocy.

[treestar]

164. The autism was not caused by the vaccine

There's the answer right there.

[brooklynite]

165. I'm disgusted by the lack of compassion for people who think their kids are demon-possessed...

Just as lacking in evidence, and "they're normal people who were blindsided by a developmental disorder with an unknown cause and no cure"...who happen to be religious fundamentalists.

I'm just not seeing any type of compassion that I would expect...