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meegbear

(25,438 posts)
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 03:12 PM Feb 2015

The Rude Pundit - People Who Doubt Vaccines Need to Be Shamed

We're told we must be nice. We're told that, if we're too forceful, we're bullying. We're told that we need to be willing to listen and understand and not risk alienating others. "When they get defensive they carry their campaign more fervently, and that has the chance of poisoning other people," said David Ropeik, a "risk communication expert," which is apparently a thing you can be. Ropeik is talking about people who believe that vaccinating children ought to be optional or that it's outright dangerous and should be banned. We who believe that things like science and facts aren't open for your opinion need to be cautious not to insult those who are afraid of shots. "Imagine what calling people selfish and dumb can do," said Brendan Nyhan, who is pro-vaccine but anti-insult.

What the nice brigade doesn't get is that being "nice" got us where we currently are: actually having a debate on whether or not to vaccinate kids. Rand Paul, a man who looks like he just finished porking a teddy bear, is concerned that vaccines can cause "profound mental disorders," which would explain the popularity of Rand Paul. He's for vaccinating, but he thinks it should be voluntary or, poof, Hitler. He doesn't say what we should do by mixing the immunized and the non-immunized, but, hey, government ain't gonna tell me what to do with my babies.

The only fun part of this year of the measles outbreak (and whooping cough - that's coming back, too) is that we're getting to see that the anti-vaxxer community is not just made up of privileged pukes in Park Slope or Marin County. It ain't just hippies who think the Man is always out to get them with their big corporate conspiracy to put chemicals into babies. No, the conservative right's libertarian streak compels some Republican politicians to say shit like this: "I know my kids best. I know what morals and values are right for my children. I think we should not have an oppressive state telling us what to do." That's Rep. Sean Duffy from Wisconsin. In case you're wondering, Duffy is a former prosecutor who was on MTV's The Real World: Boston and was a commentator on ESPN. In other words, he's not a doctor. He ain't even an ophthalmologist. He's a reality TV guy who went to law school. When it comes to medical needs, he quite specifically does not know what's best for his kids. But here he is, mouthing off about it.

Is it possible to talk about Sean Duffy's beliefs without using the words "dumb," "misinformed," "fucktarded," or "ass backwards"? Maybe you could leave out one or two, but, no, it's not possible. Because Duffy's idiotic views should be put in rhetorical stocks so the rest of us can throw rotting fruits of truth at it. He should be pantsed and whipped into the night, bemoaning that he ever doubted reality. And if some future opponent hasn't already made a commercial using the footage of him saying that it's an "oppressive state" that wants to prevent polio, Wisconsin Democrats should just close up shop.

Round and round we go. The corpse of Pat Robertson waved a skeletal finger and declared, "I don’t think any parent should be forced by the government to vaccinate." And then he said fluoride is suspicious, too (yeah, he did). And there's a chance that this will be an issue for the 2016 presidential election, the campaign for which started in, oh, probably 2009.

The reason why we're pretending this is even a debate is that we're not willing to say, flatly, that some things aren't worth talking about. We give in, again, to the mania for giving multiple sides equal time, or any time, even if one of those sides is barking, fucking mad. That's not polite discourse. That's insanity. That's suicide.

(Note: Let's be honest here. Much of the right-wing opposition to vaccines also has to do with the HPV shots. They think that when the teens get them, they're just gonna go crazy with the fucking. The other opposition has to do with allowing exemptions for beliefs so that they can cram through other kinds of exemptions, like for wedding cake bakers or what the fuck ever.)

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2015/02/people-who-doubt-vaccines-need-to-be.html

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Rude Pundit - People Who Doubt Vaccines Need to Be Shamed (Original Post) meegbear Feb 2015 OP
A thousand thanks, Rude Pundit, for setting it forth so well. Paladin Feb 2015 #1
Hear fucking hear! Dr Hobbitstein Feb 2015 #2
What other kind of advice would we expect from the RP aikoaiko Feb 2015 #3
"We're told we must be nice." Ain't that the goddamned truth? Orrex Feb 2015 #4
Yep, this issue is one where I was outright calling certain DUers stupid. Lucky Luciano Feb 2015 #5
Post removed Post removed Feb 2015 #6
Science. Check it out. Avalux Feb 2015 #8
What would be a source? m.bolden jr. Feb 2015 #15
If you are serious, look at the clinical evidence. Avalux Feb 2015 #18
Where are your sources? HappyMe Feb 2015 #23
Welcome to DU! zappaman Feb 2015 #9
Anti-vaxxers have no place here. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #11
Oh, no, I feel fine m.bolden jr. Feb 2015 #16
more likely, simply a lot of self-absorbed half-wits LanternWaste Feb 2015 #12
this is not an accurate description: DonCoquixote Feb 2015 #14
The uniformity of the level of vehemence m.bolden jr. Feb 2015 #17
because the time for coddling idiocy is over Godhumor Feb 2015 #20
I love the Rude Pundit. THANK YOU for saying what needs to be said. Avalux Feb 2015 #7
K&R cyberswede Feb 2015 #10
Won't someone think of the teddy bears? AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #13
Heh angel823 Feb 2015 #19
Well said, Rude one! HappyMe Feb 2015 #21
I called Anti-Vaxxers fucking knucleheads yesterday on DU... trumad Feb 2015 #22

Paladin

(28,268 posts)
1. A thousand thanks, Rude Pundit, for setting it forth so well.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 03:36 PM
Feb 2015

There is no point in making nice with the anti-vax crowd, that's how we got to the sorry state we're in, now. The proper response to those demanding a polite discussion of the anti-vaccination stance is: No. Certain viewpoints are at such odds with scientific reality and so potentially harmful to society at large that they need to be dismissed and ignored. Forcefully and with prejudice.

Orrex

(63,219 posts)
4. "We're told we must be nice." Ain't that the goddamned truth?
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:36 PM
Feb 2015

We had an entire thread yesterday full of people complaining that a doctor was mean to non-vaccinating parents.

k/r!

Lucky Luciano

(11,258 posts)
5. Yep, this issue is one where I was outright calling certain DUers stupid.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:56 PM
Feb 2015

There is literally no alternative description that is nicer than that for these people. Therefore, I believe it is cause for an exception to the personal attacks part of the DU ToS.

Response to meegbear (Original post)

 

m.bolden jr.

(13 posts)
15. What would be a source?
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:10 PM
Feb 2015

Just for science, what would you consider a credible, knowledgeable source for information on the internet pertaining to this issue? One not engaging in distortion, one not attempting to confuse or conflate? Serious, now. One whose only agenda is spreading truth.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
18. If you are serious, look at the clinical evidence.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 11:38 AM
Feb 2015

Here's a really good composite article:

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/201/11/1607.full

And another on MMR:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365

I'm not going to list them all separately, but if you're willing to do so, you can find a plethora of medical literature regarding efficacy, effectiveness and safety of all available vaccines.

Here's a cool interactive map of outbreaks of diseases for which we have vaccines:

http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#intro

If you want to discuss any of this further, give me a holler.

 

m.bolden jr.

(13 posts)
16. Oh, no, I feel fine
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 07:13 PM
Feb 2015

I agree 100%, there's no room for discussion, now that here in early 2015, measles has been discovered.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
12. more likely, simply a lot of self-absorbed half-wits
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:31 PM
Feb 2015

"And what we're really looking at is the monetization of fear..."

Or more likely, simply a lot of self-absorbed half-wits. Science can be as difficult as good grammar and as scary as well-crafted sentence structure.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
14. this is not an accurate description:
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 06:24 PM
Feb 2015

" And, really, at bottom, the big fear is: what if our kid gets it, not will he or she die (statistically not much chance of that - check it yourself), but what will we do? The daycare won't want them, and we can't take a week, or 3 or 4, off work, since our wages suck and our boss is a jerk who likes to motivate us by letting us know that there are plenty of unemployed people waiting to take our jobs. That just may be root of the fear - somebody, quick, make everybody get shots, so I don't end up, along with my belongings, out on the sidewalk, or maybe just lose my Bimmer!! "

actually the reality, which has been illustrated by years of study, is that if you do not force everyone to get vaccinated, diseases tend to come back.

http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/protection/
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/cellular-microscopic/herd-immunity1.htm

and that people do not want these diseases back. Now, you can go ahead and talk about how big pharm makes money, and I would see that and raise you that Vaccines should be free and paid for BY THE GOVERNMENT as an investment in public helath. That being said, in place like Cuba, or Germany whose child ehalth beats ours by a country mile, they do vaccinate their children, and they do not allow unproven pseduoscience, aka "I don't want my kid to gets the autism" to affect the health of their children.

If yopu want to rail on Big Pharm, go ahead, but do not summon psuedo sicence, or accuse those of us who have seen science work of being witch hunters.

And infally I defer to someone who knew exactly what the stakes were:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/02/roald-dahl-measles-vaccinations-letter_n_6596032.html

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
20. because the time for coddling idiocy is over
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 01:29 PM
Feb 2015

Vaccinate or remove from civilized society is the message and should be the message.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
7. I love the Rude Pundit. THANK YOU for saying what needs to be said.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 05:02 PM
Feb 2015

Ignorance cannot be propped up as legitimate, or we all go down the path of insanity.

 

trumad

(41,692 posts)
22. I called Anti-Vaxxers fucking knucleheads yesterday on DU...
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 01:35 PM
Feb 2015

I got my thread locked and post hidden.

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