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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Rude Pundit - People Who Doubt Vaccines Need to Be Shamed
We're told we must be nice. We're told that, if we're too forceful, we're bullying. We're told that we need to be willing to listen and understand and not risk alienating others. "When they get defensive they carry their campaign more fervently, and that has the chance of poisoning other people," said David Ropeik, a "risk communication expert," which is apparently a thing you can be. Ropeik is talking about people who believe that vaccinating children ought to be optional or that it's outright dangerous and should be banned. We who believe that things like science and facts aren't open for your opinion need to be cautious not to insult those who are afraid of shots. "Imagine what calling people selfish and dumb can do," said Brendan Nyhan, who is pro-vaccine but anti-insult.
What the nice brigade doesn't get is that being "nice" got us where we currently are: actually having a debate on whether or not to vaccinate kids. Rand Paul, a man who looks like he just finished porking a teddy bear, is concerned that vaccines can cause "profound mental disorders," which would explain the popularity of Rand Paul. He's for vaccinating, but he thinks it should be voluntary or, poof, Hitler. He doesn't say what we should do by mixing the immunized and the non-immunized, but, hey, government ain't gonna tell me what to do with my babies.
The only fun part of this year of the measles outbreak (and whooping cough - that's coming back, too) is that we're getting to see that the anti-vaxxer community is not just made up of privileged pukes in Park Slope or Marin County. It ain't just hippies who think the Man is always out to get them with their big corporate conspiracy to put chemicals into babies. No, the conservative right's libertarian streak compels some Republican politicians to say shit like this: "I know my kids best. I know what morals and values are right for my children. I think we should not have an oppressive state telling us what to do." That's Rep. Sean Duffy from Wisconsin. In case you're wondering, Duffy is a former prosecutor who was on MTV's The Real World: Boston and was a commentator on ESPN. In other words, he's not a doctor. He ain't even an ophthalmologist. He's a reality TV guy who went to law school. When it comes to medical needs, he quite specifically does not know what's best for his kids. But here he is, mouthing off about it.
Is it possible to talk about Sean Duffy's beliefs without using the words "dumb," "misinformed," "fucktarded," or "ass backwards"? Maybe you could leave out one or two, but, no, it's not possible. Because Duffy's idiotic views should be put in rhetorical stocks so the rest of us can throw rotting fruits of truth at it. He should be pantsed and whipped into the night, bemoaning that he ever doubted reality. And if some future opponent hasn't already made a commercial using the footage of him saying that it's an "oppressive state" that wants to prevent polio, Wisconsin Democrats should just close up shop.
Round and round we go. The corpse of Pat Robertson waved a skeletal finger and declared, "I dont think any parent should be forced by the government to vaccinate." And then he said fluoride is suspicious, too (yeah, he did). And there's a chance that this will be an issue for the 2016 presidential election, the campaign for which started in, oh, probably 2009.
The reason why we're pretending this is even a debate is that we're not willing to say, flatly, that some things aren't worth talking about. We give in, again, to the mania for giving multiple sides equal time, or any time, even if one of those sides is barking, fucking mad. That's not polite discourse. That's insanity. That's suicide.
(Note: Let's be honest here. Much of the right-wing opposition to vaccines also has to do with the HPV shots. They think that when the teens get them, they're just gonna go crazy with the fucking. The other opposition has to do with allowing exemptions for beliefs so that they can cram through other kinds of exemptions, like for wedding cake bakers or what the fuck ever.)
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2015/02/people-who-doubt-vaccines-need-to-be.html
Paladin
(28,268 posts)There is no point in making nice with the anti-vax crowd, that's how we got to the sorry state we're in, now. The proper response to those demanding a polite discussion of the anti-vaccination stance is: No. Certain viewpoints are at such odds with scientific reality and so potentially harmful to society at large that they need to be dismissed and ignored. Forcefully and with prejudice.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)I could give two shits if I offend an anti-vaxxer.
aikoaiko
(34,181 posts)Orrex
(63,219 posts)We had an entire thread yesterday full of people complaining that a doctor was mean to non-vaccinating parents.
k/r!
Lucky Luciano
(11,258 posts)There is literally no alternative description that is nicer than that for these people. Therefore, I believe it is cause for an exception to the personal attacks part of the DU ToS.
Response to meegbear (Original post)
Post removed
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Then come back for a rational discussion.
m.bolden jr.
(13 posts)Just for science, what would you consider a credible, knowledgeable source for information on the internet pertaining to this issue? One not engaging in distortion, one not attempting to confuse or conflate? Serious, now. One whose only agenda is spreading truth.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Here's a really good composite article:
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/201/11/1607.full
And another on MMR:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365
I'm not going to list them all separately, but if you're willing to do so, you can find a plethora of medical literature regarding efficacy, effectiveness and safety of all available vaccines.
Here's a cool interactive map of outbreaks of diseases for which we have vaccines:
http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/#intro
If you want to discuss any of this further, give me a holler.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)I hope you learn about science while you enjoy your stay!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And I'm not sorry if that hurts some people's precious feelings.
m.bolden jr.
(13 posts)I agree 100%, there's no room for discussion, now that here in early 2015, measles has been discovered.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"And what we're really looking at is the monetization of fear..."
Or more likely, simply a lot of self-absorbed half-wits. Science can be as difficult as good grammar and as scary as well-crafted sentence structure.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)" And, really, at bottom, the big fear is: what if our kid gets it, not will he or she die (statistically not much chance of that - check it yourself), but what will we do? The daycare won't want them, and we can't take a week, or 3 or 4, off work, since our wages suck and our boss is a jerk who likes to motivate us by letting us know that there are plenty of unemployed people waiting to take our jobs. That just may be root of the fear - somebody, quick, make everybody get shots, so I don't end up, along with my belongings, out on the sidewalk, or maybe just lose my Bimmer!! "
actually the reality, which has been illustrated by years of study, is that if you do not force everyone to get vaccinated, diseases tend to come back.
http://www.vaccines.gov/basics/protection/
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/cellular-microscopic/herd-immunity1.htm
and that people do not want these diseases back. Now, you can go ahead and talk about how big pharm makes money, and I would see that and raise you that Vaccines should be free and paid for BY THE GOVERNMENT as an investment in public helath. That being said, in place like Cuba, or Germany whose child ehalth beats ours by a country mile, they do vaccinate their children, and they do not allow unproven pseduoscience, aka "I don't want my kid to gets the autism" to affect the health of their children.
If yopu want to rail on Big Pharm, go ahead, but do not summon psuedo sicence, or accuse those of us who have seen science work of being witch hunters.
And infally I defer to someone who knew exactly what the stakes were:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/02/roald-dahl-measles-vaccinations-letter_n_6596032.html
m.bolden jr.
(13 posts)of these various replies, it's striking. Striking.
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)Vaccinate or remove from civilized society is the message and should be the message.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Ignorance cannot be propped up as legitimate, or we all go down the path of insanity.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)angel823
(409 posts)I see what you did there.
Angel in TExasperated
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I don't care if their poor feefees are hurt.
trumad
(41,692 posts)I got my thread locked and post hidden.