Du'ers and Vaccines: a poll.

[Warren Stupidity]

I'm just curious where the DU demographic stands on this. If you had to choose, would you consider yourself in the "pro-vac" or "anti-vac" camp?

47 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Pro vac
	46 (98%)
	Anti Vac
	1 (2%)
	Pi
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[bigwillq]

1. Pro (nt)

[Arkansas Granny]

2. Pro. Old enough to have had measles and mumps.

My children received all the vaccinations recommended by their pediatrician. I'd do the same today with no hesitation

[Android3.14]

3. Pro vaccination

Anti fascist, though.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. hmmmm.... so you are against immunization requirements?

[Android3.14]

7. Yup.

Fascism is fascism.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

10. You realize that vaccination won't work if it's not required?

It's not fascism to protect the health of all the citizenry, and you're not really pro-vaccine if you're against making it a requirement. Because removing that requirement would be a potential death sentence for some of us that are immuno-compromised. Your "liberty" doesn't outweigh my right to not fucking die. Or do you think it does?

[Android3.14]

17. Poorly considered argument

So your argument goes like this.
We should make illegal things that kill other people.
Refusing vaccinations/driving cars/installing in-ground pools/owning a nail gun kills people.
We should make all these things illegal.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

31. No, your argument is poorly considered

As a society, we create rules and regulations that promote the health, welfare, and prosperity of society. If you don't believe that, then a Progressive website is probably not the appropriate place for you. Ron Paul's website is -> that way.

Follow the logic:
1. Using a nail gun to kill someone is illegal
2. Using a car to intentionally kill someone is illegal
3. If I kill someone accidentally with a nail gun or my car, I have civil liability for the death
4. If someone drowns in my pool, I have civil liability for the death

If one of these asshole anti-vaxers who doesn't vaccinate their kids causes me to die, is it illegal? Do they have any civil liability or other responsibility for my death? Does it make a difference that they intentionally refused vaccinations, causing an outbreak that led to my death?

You sound like one of those "I've got my health, so fuck you" libertarians who don't give a shit about society or other members of society. I mean, you've got yours, why should you give a shit about me, right?

[NuclearDem]

14. So you're actually anti-vax then.

Got it.

[Android3.14]

18. We've already determined that you are insincere in this debate

You spread misinformation.

I'm vaccinated and my kids are vaccinated.

Go read a book. Something other than Mein Kampf.

[NuclearDem]

19. "...insincere in this debate" "...Something other than Mein Kampf."

...are you serious?

"I don't understand epidemiology, so you're the idiot, Hitler!"

[Warren Stupidity]

4. I'm surprised, so far there are zero anti-vac responses. Odd.

GD is full of turmoil but nobody will step up. Why is that?

[Reter]

12. Not odd at all, no one wants to show their username

Make it secret and watch the numbers change.

[ND-Dem]

35. i don't see any turmoil or widespread dissent. can you link me?

[LostOne4Ever]

6. Pro-Vax

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And I hope this poll ends up 99% pro-vax[/font]

[Kingofalldems]

8. As I said in an OP a few days ago

I wish we had them in the 50's. People actually would send their kids to an infected house so they would all get the measles or mumps at the same time.

[hrmjustin]

9. Pro. n/t.

[Reter]

11. There would be more antis if you didn't add the option to show usernames

Probably would be about 10% instead of zero.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. it isnt an option

[NuclearDem]

15. How many of these are "not anti-vax, BUT..."?

[Iggo]

26. At least one.

See upthread.

[MohRokTah]

16. Couldn't vote in your poll.

It's Pro-SCIENCE, not "pro-vac"

[Bluenorthwest]

24. For you, but I am strongly both things. Most of my adult life I've been hoping for an HIV vaccine

and when such a jab arrives I want people to avail themselves of it freely and without foolish dogmas clouding their opinions. Science, without the vaccine, does not go far enough, we need the vaccines.
So I'm not only Pro Vaccines, I favor more vaccines asap. New ones, badly needed vaccines.
If only because 1.5 million people died of HIV/AIDS last year in Africa and the religious leaders who tell them not to use condoms for protection are not opposed to vaccines. The Pope would allow them the shot, but not the sock. That alone means we need that vaccine to protect from the virus and from the heartlessly stupid.

[Dorian Gray]

20. I think we, in 2015,

have the luxury of not seeing major outbreaks of deadly diseases in the USA because of vaccines. People aren't afraid of dying of small pox or polio, and MMR are so far removed bc of vaccines, that people think: My kids don't need to be vaccinated. They can be pure and good and light and all will be honky dory!


But it's BS. If trends keep on the way they are, certain diseases will come raging back, and I fear that they can hit the unvaccinated really hard.

Education campaigns need to be enforced, as do rules regarding schools not being able to opt out.

Maybe the unvaccinated can start their own charters. My daughter's Montessori school requires vaccines. Public schools in NYC do as well. Luckily we don't allow opt outs as easily as California. I wish school districts would re-think.

This measles outbreak might be a blessing bc it might make school systems take a harder line. ETA: A blessing bc it's not a MORE deadly disease. As soon as the first person dies from this outbreak, I will take back my "blessing" remark. Because then it's an avoidable tragedy.

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Voted "Pro"

The data is clear.

[FailureToCommunicate]

22. Voted "Pro" Had some of those diseases back as a kid. Glad they mostly are

"in the past" except for this new vogue of stupidity among some.

[BootinUp]

23. Glad to vote pro-vac.

thanks.

[SwissTony]

25. Pro-vax. Very much so. n/t

[Xyzse]

27. I'm tempted to say Pro Vac but I feel like the way they go about it feels kinda wrong.

Attacking and denigrating people who have a different set of point of view is not the way to bring them to your side.

Even if I would promote vaccination, and think that whatever opposition to vaccination is besides the point, and even if there was an issue, the chances of such an issue actually happening is so remote that the probability of it is almost close to 0, it is better to go about it that way, rather than just attacking them and calling them idiots, all it does is make them go for confirmation bias, and make a bigger deal out of a mole hill.

[randome]

28. Were those who insisted the Earth was flat idiots?

Same thing here, except their idiocy endangers innocent people.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Xyzse]

29. I agree with this, which is why I am conflicted.

It does endanger people, and they really should.

However, I also know that by just attacking them or dismissing them as plain idiots merely makes people cling to their belief harder.

I don't actually have a solution to this.
All I could say is, when they are ready to look beyond and actually make an honest accounting of how their actions, cost benefit and actual probability of issues happen, I'll be there to provide information when asked. Otherwise, just stating it as factually as possible is enough for me.

I mean, it is like how people are afraid of lightning. Chances of getting hit are slim to none, but people are more scared of that than other things that could really kill them.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

32. For years and years, we've tried it that way

And it hasn't worked. The True Believers won't listen to reason or even consider any evidence that goes against their own dangerous world-view. It's come to a point where they should be regularly shamed and shunned like we do with truthers, climate-deniers, chemtrailers, and other conspiracy theory nuts.

These people are dangerous, and its society's role to either eject them or get them to change their minds. If they won't change, then the best thing is to keep them separated as much as possible from the rest of the citizenry that aren't dangerous morons. I don't want their kids in our schools. I don't want them mingling with me at work or in movie theaters or at the grocery store.

[Xyzse]

33. You may be right, I just don't think this type of attack feels right.

Well, it isn't in me to attack.

I'll leave it to you guys.

[stevenleser]

30. Pro Science therefore, Pro Vaxx. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. So it would appear that we're all yelling at one person.

I doubt that person reads all the posts to him or her.

[Orrex]

36. Actually, I voted under different user names 161 times

And counting.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. The shaming is working.

I wonder if all the tone trolls denouncing the harsh words used against anti-vac idiots have anything to say about that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Count me in as a tone troll.

It demonstrably doesn't work - vaccines have now become a political quasi religious issue in which science and research are trumped by team spirit... and everyone thinks that only the other team sucks.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2015/02/05/383904342/5-things-the-vaccine-debacle-reveal-about-the-2016-presidential-field

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/04/383724467/the-psychology-behind-why-some-kids-go-unvaccinated

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]NPR morning edition 2/4/15[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]You know, David, there is a small warehouse backed with research studies that find that our beliefs on all manner of issues are shaped by our pre-existing views. You know, that doesn't we're completely deaf to the evidence, it just means that we filter how we interpret the evidence through our pre-existing beliefs and our loyalties to various groups and tribes. And we see this in all manner of settings, not just in public health settings. The people who believe President Obama was born in Kenya, for example, were overwhelmingly likely to be people who didn't like President Barack Obama. If you looked at the recent football scandal over deflated footballs, people in New England were far more likely than people anywhere else in the country to believe that quarterback Tom Brady and coach Bill Belichick didn't know what was going on. So vaccines and the concerns about vaccines are an example of this much larger phenomenon, which is once you believe in something, it's very hard to debunk that belief. And when someone comes along and tries to debunk that belief, they get seen as being part of the conspiracy theory


Besides that, DU'ers beating their chests about how pure and righteous we are is noise in signal-to-noise ratio. It is boring, it is stupid, and as the poll shows we're preaching to the choir - with baseball bats.

The ultimate proof that your style of shaming works will be when you're the only one who can stand your own company.

Making this a political issue is a huge disservice to public health. It guarantees that 28% of the public will refuse vaccination.

[Warren Stupidity]

40. Oh I'm sorry, I mistook you for somebody who actually understands what a fucking disaster

anti-vac idiocy is. My mistake. We were measles free 15 years ago. Now we aren't. Congratulations for helping to make the world suck just a little bit more. This morning there was an outbreak in a daycare center in chicago. Great. That is one of the demographics that can be devastated by measles.

All the confirmed or potential cases are infants under the age of one who are too young to have received the MMR (measles, mumps rubella) vaccine. None has parents who have opted out of the immunization, Mason said. Health officials declined to identify the communities the children are from, out of privacy concerns.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/chi-measles-palatine-20150205-story.html#page=1

We lost herd immunity. Good job! Now those who can't get vaccinated will suffer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. I'm happy for you that you found someone on whom to use the baseball bat.

Now you're even special-er.

To the extent that I make the world suck?... I dunno. I do know what makes DU suck however, and I refuse to play along.

Making public health issues political is why we have measles, and you should own your role.

[Ilsa]

44. And here's the split, as you describe:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026173050

Hannity will be convincing RW that vaxing is an Obama conspiracy. They are turning it into a political issue, which means we all lose.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I'd disagree with "they"

I think the fact that 20% of the posts on this political advocacy board are about vaccination are evidence that it's a two way street.

[Ilsa]

39. I hope this is the end of it.

I'm sick of the nasty, name-calling threads on anti-vaxers by people, who don't keep up their own vaccinations. DU is ripe with hypocrisy and excuses.

I'm pro-vax, and my family is current. But I'm not going to call people "idiots" for not having the best information. I'm not going to mock them in other side swipes threads to discuss the "correlation between vaccinations and loss of pubic hair."

[Warren Stupidity]

41. They are idiots. They should be called out for being idiots.

Their idiocy will kill people who actually can't get immunized.

[Ilsa]

42. Are they here on DU? Do we need every fifth thread

to be about vaccinations? Do the mocking threads resolve anything other than attempting to create moral superiority?

[Ilsa]

46. As a nurse, treating people like idiots shuts down

Communication. They stop listening to the information. Namecalling is perhaps the most divisive and ineffective tool in trying to persuade someone to your point of view. It's no different in medicine.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. As a human, coddling idiocy encourages more idiocy. nt.