The charred body of Jesse Washington; whites from Waco, not ISIS, burned him alive - By Bill Moyers

[DonViejo]

WARNING! 2 Graphic Images @ link

BILL MOYERS
07 FEB 2015 AT 05:49 ET

They burned him alive in an iron cage, and as he screamed and writhed in the agony of hell they made a sport of his death.

After listening to one newscast after another rightly condemn the barbaric killing of that Jordanian air force pilot at the bloody hands of ISIS, I couldn’t sleep. My mind kept roaming the past trying to retrieve a vaguely remembered photograph that I had seen long ago in the archives of a college library in Texas.

Suddenly, around two in the morning, the image materialized in my head. I made my way down the hall to my computer and typed in: “Waco, Texas. Lynching.”


Sure enough, there it was: the charred corpse of a young black man, tied to a blistered tree in the heart of the Texas Bible Belt. Next to the burned body, young white men can be seen smiling and grinning, seemingly jubilant at their front-row seats in a carnival of death. One of them sent a picture postcard home: “This is the barbeque we had last night. My picture is to the left with a cross over it. Your son, Joe.”

more + Graphic Images!
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/this-is-the-charred-body-of-jesse-washington-and-whites-from-waco-not-isis-burned-him-alive/

[marym625]

1. Thank you for the post and the warning

I can't handle the pictures. I am afraid to Google it. Can you tell me when this happened?

I seem to remember another incident in the US, fairly recently and same kind of circumstances, but when I try to find information, pictures pop up in the search and I turn away.

I can't think of a more horrible death. I can't stand that we act so self righteous and pious when we are guilty of such atrocities as napalm and white phosphorus.

If there were ever a case that calls for the prosecution of Cheney, Bush and their cronies for war crimes, this is it. We need to put up or shut up

[msanthrope]

2. 1916. nt

[marym625]

3. Thank you. n/t

[notadmblnd]

31. I recall one more recently, Not a burning. No, the victim was dragged behind a pickup alive

until his body was torn apart. Mr Byrd's torso was found at the edge of a paved road, his head and arm was found in a ditch. Occurred in Jasper Texas in the last 10 years or so. Equally horrendous IMO.

[exboyfil]

57. The act was horrendous but the two are not equivalent

in the case of Mr. Byrd, two of the murderers were sentenced to death row (one has been executed) and third to life in prison. In the case of the Waco lynchers, no action was taken against them even though ample documentation shows many of the participants. In addition agents of the state effectively allowed this extra judicial killing to occur. You can find many cases of African Americans who have recently perpetrated such actions as those who killed Mr. Byrd. The horrendous crime in Knoxville being one example (Christian and Newsom).

The Waco lynching and the others like that which occurred to Henry Smith in Parris, TX and definitely equivalents to the ISIS behavior. Extra judicial murders performed in a horrendous fashion. Those two cases were even more barbaric because they were preceded by intentional maiming of the victims.

I am willing the bet that many of those who participated in the lynchings sat down confidently in their pews on the Sunday afterwards and sang praises to Jesus.

[marym625]

77. yes. equally horrendous

I remember that. And then there was Alfred Wright, also from Jasper and also horrendous.

But neither are what I was thinking about. Maybe I am remembering wrong

[notadmblnd]

87. I agree, not the equivalent

there was not the massive crowd approval as there was in 1916. However, I don't believe that there was massive crowd approval for the atrocity that ISIS has committed. Were the people who committed those crimes affiliated with an organization that uses religion as a guise to commit their hideous deeds? I would have to say yes. I guess my point was that there are still some in the US who are no better than those in the middle east now as opposed to nearly a hundred years ago.

[marym625]

92. yep.

Well said

[Voice for Peace]

91. there was a very recent incident which was ruled a suicide but I think is being investigated

a young black man found hanging in a white neighborhood playground, iirc..

Is that what you are thinking of? I haven't heard anything more for a while.

edit to add link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fbi-probes-hanging-death-black-n-teen-article-1.2043084

‘Was my son lynched?’ Family of hanged black North Carolina teen question suicide ruling as FBI announces probe
Lennon Lacy’s August death was originally ruled a suicide, but his family say his death is more suspicious: He was found in shoes that were too small for him, he was hanged with a belt that was not his, and his grave was defiled after he was buried, they said. The NAACP said racial tensions still run high in Bladenboro, and the 17-year-old’s relationship with a 31-year-old white woman was not well received in the community.

[marym625]

93. No, that's another one

Good lord!

I can't find the one I am thinking about. It was Texas. The guy was found obviously beaten but the cops and coroner said suicide.

I am going to keep looking. It was in the last year or two.

Pretty horrendous what we find when we look closer

Thanks for the information

[Number23]

96. Is this the one you're talking about?

'Black father found dead with throat cut, ear missing: Texas sheriff claims he overdosed'

http://rollingout.com/criminal-behavior/black-man-found-dead-slit-throat-missing-ear-authorities-claim-overdosed/

Many black people have been horrified by stories such as this for centuries. And yet, many of us can still manage to be equally horrified by the horror bestowed upon the world by the likes of IS, Bokko Harram, the Syrian government and others.

[marym625]

98. I think it was

I mentioned him up the thread a bit but I didn't think it was him. But this article is more familiar than the one I was looking at.

Thank you for this.

I agree. It's inexcusable. The fact that there is such outrage at what is happening with the groups you mention is good. But why not the same outrage at what happens here, constantly? Well, we know the answer.

Too much horror in this world.

[bigtree]

4. 'our own barbarians did not have to wait at any gate'

'They were insiders. Home grown. Godly. Our neighbors, friends, and kin. People like us.'

[rbrnmw]

161. IMO The racists in America

are psychos like ISIS. They would kill darker skinned people if they could get by with it. Look at how they react to the killing of black men. In their opinion black men and black male kids are always thugs who deserved to die. Even though no weapons were found. They make excuses for the real thugs like Zimmerman and Wilson. They cheer when the murderer gets away with it.

[Fred Sanders]

5. It was fucked up psychopaths then and fucked up psychopaths now, using the same false mask of religion.

Last edited Sun Feb 8, 2015, 06:05 PM - Edit history (2)

That is the point, not which religious zealotry and murder was or is worse or how long ago an example one can find.

The common binding element is using religion to cover for power lust and herd psychopathy.

Obama said the same thing, in a lengthy and detailed, but non sound bite rich, New Delhi interview last week, roundly ignored by the mass media.

Too much truth.. Obama said the same thing again at the National Prayer Brunch...then it got some attention.....due to the usual and predictable mass media deflection at the time, bizarrely using a fucking snowstorm as cover to not cover Obama - folks barely knew Obama was just in India, let alone his detailed policy statements he outlined to CNN International in a lush New Delhi courtyard garden.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

94. ^

[Cha]

112. Thanks Fred.. I agree with everything in your post.

[Fred Sanders]

134. How fucked up is it that folks refuse to view the 23 minutes of Obama's speech in response to

the 23 minutes burning and torture of a prisoner that folks even here at DU say they have viewed several times?

To Them:

View the ISIL propaganda and you support ISIL. I mean that.

So. Please. Folks. Do I have to get down on my kneels and beg?

View Obama burning ISIL back with free speech bullets:

[Cha]

159. Thank you for the Vid of President Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast.. what an excellent

place to talk about all of this.

This is coming from someone who doesn't subscribe to theism of any kind.. but I know many people who do and I respect that.

[hifiguy]

157. A thousand times this.

Well said, Fred.

[appalachiablue]

6. We need to know horrible aspects of US racism & atrocities like this. Appreciate the post.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. So, because this happened in 1916 we should ignore ISIS. Got it.

[Mira]

8. What we should not ignore

is what happened in 1916

[Cha]

113. Exacty, Mira.. you got exactly in the correct order. Acknowledge it all. :(

[sabrina 1]

10. It happened in Fallujah when civilians were burned to death, babies, women, dogs by White

Phospherous. The military admitted it. We saw the burned bodies, yet no one was held accountable. What does that say? It says that when WE commit atrocities of such massive proportions, it is RIGHTEOUS. Which is why all the 'outrage' from those, see Fox, who PROMOTED worse atrocities, is so criminally hypocritical.

Until this country begins restoring the rule of law to the vicious war criminals who perpetrated that and so many more atrocities, our 'outrage' appears to the world to be fairly newfound. IF it leads to some prosecutions here, then it will have been worth it.

[outside]

52. Wow

Please post a link to this.

Thanks

[polly7]

61. You're kidding, right?

Take your safe search off and type it into google images. There are plenty there to see, gruesome and horrible images but yes, burnt alive with WP. Trapped and unable to leave.

http://www.democracynow.org/2005/11/8/u_s_broadcast_exclusive_fallujah_the

Democracy Now! airs an exclusive excerpt of "Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre," featuring interviews with U.S. soldiers, Iraqi doctors and international journalists on the U.S. attack on Fallujah. Produced by Italian state broadcaster RAI TV, the documentary charges U.S. warplanes illegally dropped white phosphorus incendiary bombs on civilian populations, burning the skin off Iraqi victims. One U.S. soldier charges this amounts to the U.S. using chemical weapons against the Iraqi people. [includes rush transcript]

Excerpt:

JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorus will disperse in a cloud. And when it makes contact with skin, then it’s absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. It doesn’t necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it’s just impossible to stop.

REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?

JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately. It’s a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal.

more ....


Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fallujah-the-hidden-massacre/

Military and War75 Comments

This war can not have witnesses. It can not have witnesses because it is based on lies. The Americans have permitted only embedded journalists to go to Fallujah. Despite that, for example the image of the marine that shoots the wounded and unarmed warrior inside the Fallujah Mosque has gone out. And exactly because this image has gone out, we do not know how, and because it has circulated all over the world, the NBC journalist that has recorded it has been immediately expelled from the embedded body. Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre is a documentary film by Sigfrido Ranucci and Maurizio Torrealta which first aired on Italy’s RAI state television network on November 8, 2005.

The film documents the use of weapons that the documentary asserts are chemical weapons, particularly the use of incendiary bombs, and alleges indiscriminate use of violence against civilians and children by military forces of the United States of America in the city of Fallujah in Iraq during the Fallujah Offensive of November 2004.

Watch the full documentary now (Warning: Very Graphic)


http://www.democracynow.org/2005/11/17/pentagon_reverses_position_and_admits_u

Pentagon Reverses Position and Admits U.S. Troops Used White Phosphorus Against Iraqis in Fallujah


Robert Fisk: The Children of Fallujah - Sayef's story

Special Report day one: The phosphorus shells that devastated this city were fired in 2004. But are the victims of America's dirty war still being born?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-children-of-fallujah--sayefs-story-7675977.html

For little Sayef, there will be no Arab Spring. He lies, just 14 months old, on a small red blanket cushioned by a cheap mattress on the floor, occasionally crying, his head twice the size it should be, blind and paralysed. Sayeffedin Abdulaziz Mohamed – his full name – has a kind face in his outsized head and they say he smiles when other children visit and when Iraqi families and neighbours come into the room.

But he will never know the history of the world around him, never enjoy the freedoms of a new Middle East. He can move only his hands and take only bottled milk because he cannot swallow. He is already almost too heavy for his father to carry. He lives in a prison whose doors will remain forever closed.

It's as difficult to write this kind of report as it is to understand the courage of his family. Many of the Fallujah families whose children have been born with what doctors call "congenital birth anomalies" prefer to keep their doors closed to strangers, regarding their children as a mark of personal shame rather than possible proof that something terrible took place here after the two great American battles against insurgents in the city in 2004, and another conflict in 2007.

After at first denying the use of phosphorous shells during the second battle of Fallujah, US forces later admitted that they had fired the munitions against buildings in the city. Independent reports have spoken of a birth-defect rate in Fallujah far higher than other areas of Iraq, let alone other Arab countries. No one, of course, can produce cast-iron evidence that American munitions have caused the tragedy of Fallujah's children.

Fallujah: A history

The first battle of Fallujah, in April 2004, was a month-long siege, during which US forces failed to take the city, said to be an insurgent stronghold. The second battle, in November, flattened the city. Controversy raged over claims US troops had deployed white phosphorus shells. A 2010 study said increases in infant mortality, cancer and leukaemia in Fallujah exceeded those reported by survivors of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Tomorrow: The doctors fighting to improve the lives of Fallujah's suffering children


Robert Fisk: The Children of Fallujah - families fight back
Special Report day three: Abandoned and afraid, the parents of Iraq's suffering children wait in vain for help
ROBERT FISK FALLUJAH FRIDAY 27 APRIL 2012

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-children-of-fallujah--families-fight-back-7682416.html

Back story: The evidence was clear, but no one cared – except you

It's the same old story. Know nothing. See nothing. Say nothing. When children died in a plague of cancers in southern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, the Americans and the Brits didn't want to know about it. Nor, of course, did Saddam Hussein. If children had been poisoned by our depleted uranium munitions, then Saddam would lose face, wouldn't he? Independent readers contributed $250,000 for medicines for the children we met in Iraq who were suffering from cancers and leukaemia after that war.

Margaret Hassan of Care – later murdered by unknown killers months after her kidnapping, following the "liberation" of Iraq – helped us distribute the medicines from our readers across the country. No thanks from Saddam, of course. And all the children died. And not a word from our masters, armaments manufacturers and jolly generals.

It's the same again in Fallujah today. The doctors talk of a massive increase in child birth deformities. The Americans used phosphorous munitions – possibly also depleted uranium (DU) – in the 2004 battles of Fallujah. Everyone in Fallujah knows about these deformities. Reporters have seen these children and reported on them. But it's know nothing, see nothing, say nothing. Neither the Iraqi government nor the US government nor the British will utter a squeak about Fallujah. Even when I found in the Balkans a 12-year-old Serb girl with internal bleeding, constant vomiting and nails that repeatedly fell out of her hands and feet – she had handled the shrapnel of depleted uranium munitions after a Nato air strike near Sarajevo in 1995 – Nato refused to respond to my offer to take a military doctor to see her.

Already, I had discovered that up to 300 Serb men, women and children who had lived close to the Nato target in the Sarajevo suburb of Hadjici, had died of cancers and leukaemias over the five years that followed the bombing. As for southern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, the less said, the better.

[sabrina 1]

108. Amazing compilation on that horrific war crime polly. How quickly we forget.

How much outrage there was then. What happened? We worked so hard to bring those monsters to justice, only to be told 'we are moving forward'.

But now, we are outraged at another atrocity, being emotionally manipulated into screaming for 'revenge' while amnesia appears to have clouded the collective memory of a far, far worse atrocity. There could have been some justice for the surviving victims, we foolishly believed that would happen. After all, we are a nation of laws, not men, no? How often did we hear that?

But instead, the monsters responsible walk free and are busy drumming up more war.

Using victims to do so. I can't think of anything more monstrous than KNOWING who the perpetrators are, and treating them as if they were elder statesmen. What kind of country does that?

Thanks for those links. It saved me the bother. And I see that there is no response, perhaps because it really is too horrible to believe that your own country, did this. And much more.

[polly7]

115. That was just stuff left in my journal, Sabrina and a few other links

so it didn't take long. I think many of us have very good memories of it all and would have no problem finding many, many more links to it. The screaming for 'revenge' scares me just as bad as it did for the screaming for action in Iraq and Libya. None of this was an unknown consequence, and as far as I'm concerned - never-ending turmoil in the ME was the goal all along. Taking out Gaddafi who was safeguarding Africa doesn't seem to have worked out so well either, was that an intended consequence too? I don't know, but I don't doubt it at all. Stop the funding, including that of Saudi Arabia, stop supplying the weapons, apologize and make reparations for causing it all in the first place and these barbarians might actually not get the support they are from all those with such hatred and anger for what we in the west have unleashed by brutally getting rid of (along with all those 'collateral damage' tortured, and yes .... burned alive, and murdered) those who had so far managed to keep it under control.

The monsters responsible for it and drumming up more war want it worldwide, it seems. I hate them. Every single one of them, and all of those who aided them in it. I wish they had the guts to go fight ISIS and Boko Haram themselves. Slap a gun on their backs and send them off.

[sabrina 1]

147. Well said Polly. I'm all for the war criminals, Ledeen, Wolfowitz Cheney of course

and the rest of them being tried, convicted and sent to fight the monsters they created as a punishment. That would be a just punishment. Not one of them even had any of their own children sign up. Which always made me wonder, 'if this is such a just and moral war, how come your family members are not setting an example and rushing to the nearest enlistment office to go fight for 'freeeeeeeedom'??

Instead, they all live in luxury here, pulling the strings to send other people's children to do their dirty work so they can continue to profit from the evil deeds.

[sabrina 1]

65. Are you seriously saying you are unaware of the war crimes in Fallujah? All links to the

horrors there are so graphic I have refrained from using them here.

But if you are serious, and you are unable to find information yourself, I will be happy to post information on not only the use of the forbidden incendiary weapon on a civilian population, but the admission, and attempts to excuse it, by the Military.

[Fred Sanders]

136. You are perhaps responding to another victim of the propaganda state, so it is not willful ignorance.

[sabrina 1]

143. No need to remain ignorant though. Polly has posted some links below that make it

impossible to deny that horrific war crime, just one of the many that have taken place since Cheney/Bush and the neocons lied this country into that terrible war.

I know our media will never cover these horrors. But Americans need to know, especially when the propaganda starts again in preparation for MORE of what caused much of what is happening now, more WAR.

[niyad]

69. what do you want on your pizza?

[BeanMusical]

104. +1

[gcomeau]

13. The only person making that moronic statement is you. -eom

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. Then perhaps you can show me where Moyers' proposal for dealing with ISIS.

No. You can't, because Moyers has nothing to show except his own fake moral preening.

[G_j]

30. well it's obvious that you advocate ignoring ISIS

as your post offers no proposal for dealing with ISIS. See how that works?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

46. Fake moral preening?

Who the fuck do you think you are? You're not fit to pass judgment on Bill Moyers.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. "Who the fuck do you think you are? You're not fit to pass judgment on Bill Moyers."

I've no use for Bill Moyers and his phony moralizing, collectivist guilt BS.

How's that?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

63. You're very rigid, limited. Moyers is not.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. He's the one pushing the collectivist-guilt BS for a century-old murder.

Is Moyers suggesting people can be burned alive and have their execution broadcast in modern America?

If he is he's an even bigger idiot.

If not then why is he trying to hand the guilt of Jesse Washington's murder on anyone except Jesse Washington's killers while linking it to those who endorse intervention against ISIS?

Endorsing putting an end to ISIS does not make one in any way, shape or form responsible for the death of Jesse Washington or the Crusades or the Iraq War or any of the other mentally vacuous exercises employed to turn a blind to what ISIS is doing.

[Flatulo]

97. I find myself agreeing with you. Moyers is an idiot.

We shouldn't act against ISIS because Christianity, seems to go the argument.

[SCVDem]

49. Moral Preening?

I just can't agree with that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

55. That's all the article is: Moral preening.

"Hey! America! You have a racist past! Some people who lived in your borders did some bad things so before you go saying ISIS is bad you have to acknowledge that their deeds impede your right to say ISIS is bad.

"No, no; there's no point in explaining that you would be just as morally outraged by the murder of Jesse Washington as you are about the Jordanian pilot. The fact is, Mr. Washington's killers weren't bombed by the US in 1916 so you have no right wanting ISIS bombed in 2015.

"I, however, am exempt from this guilt because I wrote an article explaining how everyone else is weighed down by the century-old acts of other people."

Pfft!

If that isn't the point of the article I'd love to hear what it really is.

[Enthusiast]

79. America has a racist present.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

85. Humanity has a racist present and humanity has a racist future as well.

[gcomeau]

58. Ah, I see...

Any article written that so much as mentions ISIS that does not propose a solution for dealing with ISIS is an explicit argument IN FAVOR OF NOT DEALING WITH THEM AT ALL.

Why didn't I see that before?


Oh, wait....I know. Because I'not an idiot.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

64. Spare me.

The subtext of the article is that the modern US has no moral authority to deal with ISIS.

Is Moyers' suggesting that Mr. Washington could be murdered and have that murder broadcast in modern America with impunity the same way the Jordanian pilot was murdered?

If he is then he's an even bigger idiot than I would initially suggest.

But since that is obviously not true and he's presumably not THAT big an ass then he must be trying to hang the moral weight of Washington's killers on those of us who would endorse intervention against ISIS.

Why should anyone except Washington's killers bear the guilt for the murder?

[gcomeau]

78. Sigh... no captain clueless.

The point (and it's not even subtext) of the article is that extremism is not unique to one religion alone.

Which doesn't say one single goddamn thing about not dealing with said extremists because of that.

[progressoid]

81. +1

[Nuclear Unicorn]

82. BS. It's a typical tu quoque argument.

Tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/;[1] Latin for "you, too" or "you, also&quot or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position. It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented.[2] It is a special case of ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

[gcomeau]

84. It would be..

If it had said ONE SINGLE GODDAMN WORD about anyone not having the moral authority or whatever to deal with Isis because of the simple undisputed historical facts that were laid out.


But since that only happened in your imagination... no. No it wasn't.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. Then what is the link between Jesse Washington's murder and ISIS?

Lots of people are murdered lots of ways for lots of motivations but Moyers brings up one from 99 years ago.

Why not mention something more, you know, contemporary?

ISIS cuts off heads. Hey! Some guy cut off his mother's head a while back. So...



ISIS shoots people. Hey! People get shot here too! You don't even need to go back 99 years.

ISIS murders homosexuals. Did you know there was recently a serial killer using a gay dating app to "hook-up" with men and murder them? That was just last year. Maybe Moyers will get around to writing about that in another 98 years.

[gcomeau]

89. Forget already, or just not paying attention?

I did tell you the point of the article already. Of course it was one entire post before that last one so I could see how you might have trouble recalling that far back.

[countryjake]

106. Here's "the weight of the American government" for you...

Broadcast with impunity in modern America.

Extremist killers exist in Amerika today, just as they have throughout our history. Methods do differ, somewhat, but the intent and hatred is the same.

High horses are often very difficult to get down from, especially when the drums of bigotry are pounding.

[cui bono]

99. WOW!!! Bill Moyers is getting thrown under the bus now??????????????????????????????????????

DU really needs to change it's name or begin a major purge if it wants to represent Democratic values.

Sheesh.

[DonViejo]

14. Too old an incident for you?...

Happy reading:

Despite wingnut freakout, Obama is right: Christian violence Is just as bad as Muslim violence

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/despite-wingnut-freakout-obama-is-right-christian-violence-is-just-as-bad-as-muslim-violence/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. Ah yes. European = Christian ergo all wars in Europe = Christian wars.

Got it.

Go live with ISIS, obviously it would be much safer.

[ND-Dem]

27. yes, isis = hitler.

[DonViejo]

28. Would I be correct if I assume you disagree with the President's statement....

about not forgetting our own history as well as a recent history of Christian organizations around the world?

“And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. Slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Yes. I get it. We suck. We're the meanest most awful people ever.

[DonViejo]

39. You get what?...

Please show me and other DU'ers where I said or suggested, stated or implied, "we suck. We're the meanest most awful people ever." The only one involved in our ongoing conversation that has said, "we suck. We're the meanest most awful people ever," is you. So please, to paraphrase the President, "get off your high horse."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. So what's the point of dredging up the Crusades from centuries ago?

[DonViejo]

56. That's your answer to my question, another question?

So I guess, and following your train of thought, because I post articles I believe may be of interest to DU'ers, I must therefore also agree with the positions stated in those articles, e.g.;

Mike Huckabee Mocks 'Bizarre' Michael Sam Call, Fears Gay 'Economic Terrorism'

Tony Perkins: Gays 'Persecute' Christians By Making Them View Photos Of Gay People On Facebook

Klingenschmitt Warns That The Government Will Make Christians Renounce Christ In Order To Keep Their Jobs

The above three articles are posted here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026189445

or maybe this one:

GOP Senator: 'There Are Too Many Empty Beds' At Gitmo Right Now
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026185843

or these:

GOP Rep. Schock's Spox: White House 'Should Build A Mosque' For Obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026184351

In Facebook Posts, Cong. Aaron Schock’s Press Secretary Compared African Americans To Zoo Animals
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026183302

Am I correct?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. OK, so you don't agree with Moyers' moral preening.

But Moyer's moral preening is still vacuous and idiotic.

[Demit]

74. I'm getting a strong sense that you don't like being reminded of

our own barbarism in America. Barbaric behavior is a human trait, is all Moyers is saying. It is not peculiar to any one country or any one religion. All human beings carry the potential. As many countries, and many religions, have demonstrated over the centuries.

There is nothing vacuous in that. It is a profound truth, and people forget it all the time. You might not like hearing it, so you accuse Moyers of being holier-than-thou ("moral preening&quot but it is no less a truth for that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

80. I don't need to be reminded of human barbarism so spare me yet more fake moral preening.

None of Washington's killers are setting policy WRT ISIS. No one condemning ISIS would give a pass to the thugs who murdered Jesse Washington. If someone tried to do in America what ISIS did the weight of the American government would be thrown against them and rightly so -- except now that we're debating whether to throw that same weight against ISIS all we get is lectures about how we're bad too.

America? ISIS? meh! The only difference is where you're mail gets sent, I guess.

[Demit]

124. Apparently you do.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

125. Apparently you just want to feel superior.

[bettyellen]

129. It's giving context. Preening and prancing? I'm seeing plenty of both here-

And it's not Moyers doing a jig trying to pretend context doesn't matter. He's not the one on a high horse!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

133. The people who are outrage over the death of the Jordanian pilot would not

then give a pass to the murder of Jesse Washington. People wanting the US to put an end to ISIS don't need to be reminded that burning people alive is a bad thing even if perpetrated within the US.

Moreover, the claim isn't even be qualified. The guilty party in the story is: America. Period. Full stop. End of discussion and God help any with the temerity to say otherwise -- as demonstrated by this thread.

Really?

Did YOU participate in the burning of Jesse Washington? Are you morally, even if not legally, responsible for the barbarism perpetrated against Mr. Washington?

I'm going to be so bold as to suggest I am not. No, really; I just said that. I even count you among those who 1) did not murder Mr. Washington and 2) a sickened merely by the thought (as am I).

Yet, we're supposedly being reminded that racism exists and is perpetrated by whites (presumably Christian) against non-whites. Yet, here we are discussing whether or not we have the moral standing to retaliate against a group for killing a non-white (and presumably Muslim).

Who is it, exactly, is not morally qualified to discuss this? Obama? His voters? Congress?

[bettyellen]

138. Yes, Obama is talking about America's racism. I think it is about all of us- not just me.

But that's the way my mind works. It's not about me me me. Not about what I need to hear above what it true, and important contextually.
I'd not assume all others know our sordid history. Or that they understand the issues that remain today.
And denying it all isn't making it going to go away. Not sure why simple truths offend you so.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

139. How about

We deal with US racism AND confront ISIS rather than using US racism as an excuse to bury our heads in the sand.

[Fred Sanders]

140. If you have not viewed the entire Obama speech but have viewed the ISIL snuff movie, then.....

I have embedded it for you here.

Please listen to the heartfelt words of your President, on topic:

Fox may still have the ISIL video, not sure if they pulled it yet.

Please do not view, because Fox embedded the video of a snuff film produced to recruit enemies of America, but refuse to embed the verbal response of the leader of America.

[shaayecanaan]

102. safety

[Nuclear Unicorn]

152. If that upsets you I guess WW2 must really set you off.

You can't see the individual bodies but rest assured, they're there.

[shaayecanaan]

160. makes ISIS seem like pretty small beer doesn't it? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

162. "small beer"

What an interesting turn of phrase considering the people responsible for the latter photo started out with a failed beer hall putsch.

[shaayecanaan]

163. You got me

Did the toothbrush moustache give it away?

[840high]

23. That's BS.

[DonViejo]

24. What's "BS"?...

What Moyers wrote or the article at Raw Story?

[Snow Leopard]

36. what an idiotic article

[DonViejo]

42. Perhaps you'll find this article more to your liking...

Sorry, Fox: Obama Was Right About Christianity's 'Terrible Deeds'

Conservatives across the country are freaking out about President Obama’s claim that “people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ” at the National Prayer Breakfast. Everyone from Rush Limbaugh and Jim Gilmore to Megyn Kelly and the hosts of Fox & Friends is venting about it. Unfortunately, the president is exactly right.

Every century in the history of Christianity is full of examples. But one of the most vivid cases of Christian-motivated bloodshed is what was happening exactly four hundred years ago, in the winter of 1615. Long-standing religious hatred and political tensions were escalating across Europe. When spiritual leaders incited violence, their followers were keen to comply. The means of killing were gruesome and imaginative. Arms were ripped from living torsos, writhing bodies stretched on racks, and men’s severed genitalia burned before their dying eyes. Kings, princes and politicians employed draconian measures to squelch criticism and halt change.

A century before that, Martin Luther’s attempt to purify Christianity of its papal poisons led to decades of struggles across Europe. More than 100,000 poorly armed farmers were slaughtered in 1524-25 when they took Luther’s teachings to imply greater social justice. Over the course of the 16th century, villages were razed, schools closed and disease left unchecked. By 1615, the continent was teaming with terrorist plots, counter-plots, and spies. But when Catholic councilors were sent to Prague and summarily tossed by the Protestant assembly out palace windows, a line was crossed. The so-called Defenestration of Prague of 1618 marks the official start of the Thirty Years’ War.

In 2015, longstanding religious hatred and political wrangling are again sweeping Europe with their own shadowy sources in the last century. Kings, princes and politicians again employ draconian measures to control criticism and stop change. In this global struggle, villages have been destroyed, schools bombed, and disease left unchecked. Nor have our contemporaries lacked imagination in their violence. Schoolgirls have been kidnapped, journalists beheaded, and interrogation methods enhanced. Our cycle of violence is much the same as that of our predecessors. Unchecked power and ignorance promote loathing, leading to increased viciousness, intolerance, and more hatred. Chérif Kouachi, one of the men responsible for the Charlie Hebdo massacre, was first moved to radicalism by images of American soldiers humiliating Muslims at Abu Ghraib prison. Brutality and stupidity beget more of the same.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/sorry-fox-obama-was-right-about-christianitys-terrible-deeds

[Fla Dem]

16. Where was that even implied either in the OP or the article itself.

The point being made was we have/ had our own barbarians, we don't have to seek them out. But never any suggestion ISIS should be ignored.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. "The point being made was we have/ had our own barbarians"

OK. So there are bad people in the world; some are in the US. What does that have to do with dealing with ISIS or does Moyers just feel the need to scream, "We suck!" (which is really just code speak for, "You suck! Because I'm better than you.&quot so he can prance around with moral smugness?

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

33. So making sure America and Americans remind themselves their participation in

something they have done so as to keep things in context and truth, is smugness?

Wow...

I wonder if we would be having this problem in the first place if the election stealing Bush and Cheney hadn't invaded Iraq on lies.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. "So making sure America and Americans remind themselves their"

If you have lynched and burned people then that is something you need to deal with. Me? I haven't so I am not to blame.

Keep your collectivist guilt crap to yourself; I'm not a participant. Though, I remember just a few weeks ago after the Hebdo attack we were incessantly lectured, "Not all Muslims!" Okay. I got that. I agree with that. I'm just curious while its "Yes! All Americans!" and "All Christians!"

I live in the country. I know bullshit when I smell it.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

44. Wow.

[nomorenomore08]

107. What is with the defensiveness and anger? Seems way out of proportion.

[stillwaiting]

127. It is something to behold. So very, very angry. nt

[bettyellen]

130. Oh, we should ignore all our history cause it's not about YOU?

It didn't hurt you, you didn't participate in any of the horrible things that have happened.
Otherwise Moyers could talk about them? Lol.
You've really thought this through, ha ha.

[LiberalElite]

62. Wow are your feelings hurt nt

[a la izquierda]

131. Christ Almigty.

I guess every historian who does his/her due diligence to teach generations of Americans about atrocities carried out by the U.S. government must dance around in countless lectures halls, glorifying in our moral smugness. I'm one of those historians. I suck.


Give me a small break. You need to learn nuance and reading comprehension. Or let go of your guilty conscience.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

137. I don't take moral lectures from people who have the avatar of racist, mass murderers.

[a la izquierda]

144. You don't take them from anyone, as your posts on this thread demonstrate.

Not only do you not read well, you also forget what you write.
Meh. Cute.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

146. I am quite aware of what I write and I read well enough to know people

claim high moral ground as an excuse to bury their heads in the sand when confronted with real, in the moment acts of evil.

The murder of Jesse Washington is not an excuse to ignore the barbarity of ISIS. Maybe you feel morally responsible for Mr. Washington's murder, I do not. I, unlike some of the apparent moral cripples inhabiting this thread, can find deep moral repugnancy in the brutality visited on Mr. Washington AND find the barbarity visited upon the Jordanian pilot.

However, we have the opportunity to act against those who murdered the pilot; we have no such opportunity to do so against Mr. Washington's killers. To act against ISIS today is not to ignore the racism of the past, it strengthens our resolve to deal with such crimes in the future here in the US and elsewhere in the world. To sit here and say we cannot act today because of past sins of commission is to create new sins of omission that will be counted against us in the future.

If barbarity is REALLY the issue the preening tu quoque moralizers are pretending it to be then here is the opportunity to show one's resolve to actually do something about barbarity that is here and now. Instead, all we get are lectures that people who did not murder Mr. Washington should count themselves among the guilty and as such have no place to seek action against or modern barbarians. No end to the barbarity, just tut-tutting.

What next? Lectures about how feeding the poor is hypocrisy because in the past people have died of malnutrition so why would we even bother to grow, harvest, prepare or distribute food? That's be some stupid shit, right there.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

29. Who said that?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. What is the point of the article?

To remind me that murder is bad regardless of where it is committed? Golly! Thanks for reminding me Mr. Moyers! If not for your insightful article I would have thought murder is only bad when committed by Middle Easterners!

Why -- before this helpful article I would have thought you could set people on fire in the middle of a town square in modern America then broadcast a high production quality video of the event on public television with total-effin'-impunity because -- you know -- America is EXACTLY-LIKE-ISIS!!!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

40. Why should anyone listen to someone who falsly accused someone else of being a car thief when

that someone knows damn well he never said he stole a car?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Perhaps I have you confused with another poster.

Not long ago a young woman was shot by Denver police after stealing a car and striking an officer.

A poster replied that stealing cars was a rite of passage having done so himself. If you are not that poster I genuinely apologize.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

45. NO, i AM that poster, please show where I said I stole a car, you see I did not steal a car or claim

that I did and you know damn well that is true

I said I knew people who did, like neighbors stealing a neighbors parents car and trying to get it back before they woke up to see if they could get away with it, that kind of stuff....

I dont have a search function, if I did I would show you, but I assume the admin does and they will sort it all out...

If you do PLEASE search this and copy and paste what I said and then you can apologize.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

50. OK, so you dismissively called stealing cars a "right (sic) of passage" but never stole any cars.

It's all a big larf. Ha ha

Now back to the subject at hand --

What is the point of the article?

To remind me that murder is bad regardless of where it is committed? Golly! Thanks for reminding me Mr. Moyers! If not for your insightful article I would have thought murder is only bad when committed by Middle Easterners!

Why -- before this helpful article I would have thought you could set people on fire in the middle of a town square in modern America then broadcast a high production quality video of the event on public television with total-effin'-impunity because -- you know -- America is EXACTLY-LIKE-ISIS!!!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

51. So you lie about me being a car thief and you laugh it off in one sentence? SERIOUSLY?

Why not admit why you would lie about it in the first place or why you would remember something about me and not someone else, I am a liberal.

that is why

An in your face, no apologies forthcoming liberal.

that is why

obnoxious, over the top, you bet your ass...the times CALL for it

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. How can I be lyng if I openly admitted your side of the story?

I am a liberal.

that is why

An in your face, no apologies forthcoming liberal.

Who thinks stealing cars is a right (sic) of passage -- though you assert you never stole one (except your parents) -- and America bears some collectivist guilt so who are we to complain about a man being burned alive.

By gumption, I think we have found our 2016 platform!

America!
We SUCK! Go get mom's keys!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

66. At least you dont deny why you have such a problem with me, that is good.

[Oilwellian]

70. As we have read your childish tantrum in this thread...

a pattern has emerged. You make false claims, a lot. What do you suppose that does to your credibility?

It's sad that you can't see the larger underlying issue here. Usually, when I don't understand something, I sit quietly and listen to learn. You should try it some time.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

83. Oh, another one of those.

"There's a larger truth you can't see and since you can't see it there's no point in trying to explain it."

If I had a dollar for every time someone slinked away, tail-tucked with that excuse I could buy the internet.

Moyers is spreading a typical tu quoque argument. That's is the larger, underlying issue here.

[frylock]

72. people were decapitated and burned alive during shock and awe..

this isn't about ignoring ISIS. it's about addressing the sanctimony of people that would condemn some acts of violence while celebrating another.

[DeSwiss]

110. Congratulations You Win!

- This is the dumbest remark I've read today!!!

[rhett o rick]

111. Really? That's what you want to say? Isn't that called a Strawman?

People here are trying to point out the hypocrisy. But those that believe in American Exceptionalism are blind to the hypocrisy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

120. I call out Moyers for a tu quoque fallacy so your refutation is to call it a straw man based on the

point that America is hypocritical because we're just as bad.

Well, okay, then.

[rhett o rick]

132. Moyer did not use the Jesse Washington atrocity to justify that by ISIS. In fact to say he

did is a pretty serious accusation. But no where did he make that justification, therefore no fallacy. The fact that you imply he does is a strawman fallacy. He, as others, are pointing out the hypocrisy that the American Execptionalists want us to ignore.

We are currently killing "suspected" terrorists with drone with an innocent to suspect kill ratio of about 10 to 1. These deaths are not shown on tv to make it easier for American Execptionalists to ignore.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

135. I never said Moyers is justifying the acts by ISIS. I never even came close to it.

You are the one peddling straw men.

He, as others, are pointing out the hypocrisy that the American Execptionalists want us to ignore.

And I'm saying its a tu quoque fallacy.

[rhett o rick]

141. To be a "tu quoque fallacy" Moyers would have to refute the arguement that the ISIS

incident was an atrocity. He does not. He is revealing the hypocrisy of those that only recognize the autocracies that they choose.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

142. Dude. Let me put you some knowledge --

Tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/;[1] Latin for "you, too" or "you, also&quot or the appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position. It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented.[2] It is a special case of ad hominem fallacy, which is a category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of fact about the person presenting or supporting the claim or argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, such behavior does not invalidate the position presented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

[rhett o rick]

145. I appreciate your "cut and paste" attempt, but if you had read the definition you'd have caught

this part: "This attempts to dismiss opponent's position based on criticism of the opponent's inconsistency and not the position presented. " No where did he mention that he was trying to "dismiss" the seriousness of the ISIS atrocities. He was pointing out the hypocrisy of those that would dismiss atrocities that this country does because of Exceptionalism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

148. I see you had to switch from claiming I said Moyers was attempting to justify Washington's murder

no where did he make that justification

to denying Moyer's is engaged in attempting to dismiss acts by ISIS.

If claiming "We're hypocrites! It also happened here in the US!" is not an attempt to dismiss the seriousness of the deeds of ISIS what, then, is it?

I am not legally or morally responsible for the murder of Jesse Washington. If you are, then hire a lawyer and turn yourself in to the authorities. But I'm guessing you won't because you consider yourself exempt.

And that what is so laughable about this entire episode. The people offering these phony lectures say they want other people to feel some moral twinge but they don't feel it themselves.

THAT is hypocrisy.

[rhett o rick]

149. Sorry, but you are not making any sense. Best I can tell you are arguing in a circle. No one

is trying to minimize the ISIS atrocities. Some are pointing out hypocrisy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

151. "Some are pointing out hypocrisy."

Hypocrisy for who? None of the people demanding ISIS be stopped participated in or condoned the murder of Jesse Washington.

[rhett o rick]

153. You imply with your "Tu quoque fallacy" smear that Moyers' intent was to

minimize the death of the Jordanian pilot. Is that what you in fact think? I don't for one minute.

You say, "None of the people demanding ISIS be stopped participated in or condoned the murder of Jesse Washington." I bet there were lots of people that condoned it. The ones that perpetrated it are not the only sick racists in this nation. Further more, I think Mr. Moyers was speaking to the many people who, although may not have condoned the act, chose to look the other way. These are the people that are hypocritical and most likely racist.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

154. "smear that Moyers' intent was to minimize the death of the Jordanian pilot"

No.

Moyers is trying to minimize the calls to deal decisively with ISIS. This phony little lecture serves no practical purpose.

I bet there were lots of people that condoned it. The ones that perpetrated it are not the only sick racists in this nation.

There are sick racists/bigots/homophobes/ideologues/just-plain-rotten-bastards in every place at every time.

The question is: What to do about them?

Is he out to lecture the racists? I'll suggest that might just be an exercise in futility because the racists already know who they are and what they feel and they have already concluded they are better than everyone else. They cannot be reasoned out of their barbarity.

Is Moyers' proposal to sit there and lecture those who already find bigotry and murder to be morally reprehensible?

"That thing you already condemn as morally reprehensible is bad and don't you forget it!!!1!1!!"

Gee, thanks.

I can only imagine Moyers having been around a hundred years ago. The news comes in that a young black man has been kidnapped, tortured and burned alive by racists. Moyers response? A worthless article noting that a hundred years earlier another person was burned alive by another group with the same subset of moral failings and because of that those calling for the killers of Jesse Washington to be brought to justice would do well to remember racism was alive and well in 1817 and as such who are we (meaning, "not me&quot to lecture people in 1916 about the evils of burning people alive.

Such an exercise would be stupid and pointless -- just like this modern effort.

[rhett o rick]

156. So this boils down to you thinking, "Moyers is trying to minimize the calls to deal decisively with

ISIS." Now why in the world would he do that?

"Is Moyers' proposal to sit there and lecture those who already find bigotry and murder to be morally reprehensible? " Absolutely not. He is lecturing those that turn a blind eye to American atrocities, yet get outraged when others commit atrocities. It's a statement against American Exceptionalism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

158. In favor of Moyers Exceptionalism, no doubt.

How blessed we are to have such brave and insightful ankle-biters to serve as moralizing scolds for deeds a hundred years past while people are being brutalized in the here and now.

Again, what would the brave and courageous ( ) Mr. Moyers have written in 1916, had he been present?

"Those who would condemn the murder of Jesses Washington by people who cannot contend with result of the American Civil War to impose the abolition of slavery would do well to remember that even the Union had its share of slave holding states."

Or maybe --

"It's all well and good to speak out against so-called 'black codes' in southern US states but even in the northern states such as Ohio laws were passed to discourage blacks from emigrating."

So much for abolition and civil rights because -- HYPOCRISY! Them Yankee Unionists and their false sense of exceptionalism...they're no better than your average sheet-bedecked KKKlanner!

Which reminds me...

Wanna really stomp on the "Past Misdeeds!" button? Let's talk about what percentage of the KKK that was Democratic vs. Republican. Dixiecrats and the George Wallace brigade infected the party a lot more recently than 1916. Does that fact in any way reflect on the modern Democratic party?

I'll go with, "no" but if my interlocutors in this thread are to be believed I am so corrupt in thought I should be dismissed out of hand. What does this say about the sense of Democratic Exceptionalism one tends to see here at Democratic Underground? Apparently its hypocritical.

So what sinless body politic shall go forth and deal with ISIS? I doubt Moyers' ass is climbing out from behind his desk to do anything meaningful any time soon.

[ileus]

123. Where were all the "The pakistan school shootings were justified, because of Sandy Hook" threads?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

150. Perhaps if there were the possibility of US intervention we would see them.

Those decrying the murder from a century ago seem voiceless about what to do with the murders in the here and now. When could well imagine that were they around a century ago and to see Jesse Washington murdered they would have given us the tut-tut treatment and complained we can do nothing to bring his killers to justice because someone else and hundred years earlier still had been burned to death.

It's not about racism, it's about demanding others submit to some group chant and the chant takes precedence over actually confronting evil.

[dissentient]

9. It's time to leave the middle east alone, playing the world policeman role has ended in misery

for those places we have intervened.

We are like the Police Officers who clubbed Rodney King, instead of any kind of justice or peace, we just bring more suffering and misery and wrongdoing.

[Historic NY]

11. Some people just can't handle the "truth".

[Paladin]

12. Thank you, Bill Moyers. (nt)

[BubbaFett]

15. But the past didn't happen

and St. Ronald of Raygun was a hero.

Up is down.

[jwirr]

18. The rw is so busy denying history and rewriting anything bad in it that they do not realize that

they are opening the door for more of the same. I cannot for the life of me understand why they want to do this. Knowing both sides of history - the good and the bad - gives us the tools to work with to make sure that we are not going backwards. And that does not diminish our country. It makes us stronger.

[freebrew]

25. We are at war with Eurasia...

We have always been at war with Eurasia...

Orwell got it. 'They' want to make sure no one gets what they are doing and what the end result will be.

[valerief]

20. ISIS, the Middle Eastern KKK. nt

[BlueCaliDem]

105. Exactly!

No matter how many smokescreens Nuclear Unicorn tries to put up or how many times he wants to swat away the stench of barbarism from American culture and history, the facts are the facts, and the KKK, a so-called Christian group, are NO different than ISIS.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. But..but...our methods of killing people are more scientifically advanced and efficient!

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Gandhi

[JEB]

26. Our and our allies use of White Phosphorus.

We need to start with the person in the mirror if we truly want things to improve.

warning graphic images...









https://www.google.com/search?q=white+phosphorus+video&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tULWVN39GYL7gwTrtYOoAQ&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1586&bih=859

[Snow Leopard]

38. really? did we use white phosphorus or napalm on our pow's?

I missed that story!

[JEB]

53. I guess you missed our treaqtment of civilians inthe siege of Fallujah.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x530818

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10164770

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1377815

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2697955

[Snow Leopard]

86. so civillians in a war zone

is the same as POW's?

[JEB]

101. Civilians trapped by military forces. Not even POW's.

siege
sēj/
noun
noun: siege; plural noun: sieges

a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside.
"Verdun had withstood a siege of ten weeks"
synonyms: blockade, encirclement
"the siege of the fort lasted into the morning"
antonyms: relief
an operation in which a police or other force surround a building and cut off supplies, with the aim of forcing an armed person to surrender.
a prolonged period of misfortune.

[TheKentuckian]

128. Like all of those people we tortured? Very probably some to death? Plausible sexual depravity

You know the horrible shit we are still redacting and burying but the tip of the iceberg looks despicable?

You know the stuff we are "looking forward on" and calling those who performed the deeds patriots and the architects and order makers get libraries and all the TV time and wealth they want?

You know the stuff we still to this second have black sites and rendition arrangements for?

You know the stuff that keeps us stubbornly from ratifying and accepting international law on just this subject you are trying to climb up on some high horse on.

Reacting and agenda got us here, damn straight it is time to think and for rationality not hot wrath. You haven't even begun to address how, when, and why "doing something" is not going to continue to exacerbate and destabilize the region as it has done consistently only setting up even more radical boogiemen to "do something about" in short order.

Nor has it been explained why we must "do something" when the regional powers have complete air superiority, more troops than we could ever put into the theater, and primary interest in their own nations?

You want to "do something" then it isn't hard to get right in the mix, all kinds of personnel and money are flowing through "allied" nations. You might even be able to get limited direct flights out of New York and DC, I'm not sure.
There are also groups that have formed up, a poster linked to an Assyrian effort and they could use contributions that might be worthy for concerned individuals to contribute to, I'm sure similar set ups exist for the Kurds and others.
Feel free to lobby as a US and world citizen to the regional governments.
Demand our government cease destabilizing the region and feeding the chaos.

Do something other than pissing our future and present into the sand doing more stupid shit with no plan after kicking some ass that means we don't know what the fuck we are doing at all. It is like thinking the cure for throat cancer is enough cough medicine.

[Dreamer Tatum]

34. Thank God ISIS is incinerating people. How else would we know about our own racism?

I had NO idea!

Golly, ISIS, THANKS!

[Romulox]

35. I don't disagree with Moyers' point, but why is the ultimate outcome of this insight still more war?

I agree we (the US) have and continue to act barbarically. But shouldn't this insight be a prime argument to put a sudden and total moratorium on further killing?

Somehow I feel like this "we are all just as bad as one another" rhetoric is just more justification for never-ending war.

[Oilwellian]

75. Pointing out our own barbarity...

lessens our moral justification for war. I think that was Moyer's point and to a lesser degree, Obama's, which was a very pleasant and welcome surprise. Americans have been indoctrinated to always root for the good guy. Our wars have always had a good guy (that would be us) and the bad guy. The murderous Bush regime destroyed that perception and exposed our hypocrisy. In the Middle East, it is now outrageous to claim we are the good guy, and I think most Americans hate what we have become and want change.

We have been arming several Middle Eastern nations for the past few decades. I think it is time they join together and destroy ISIS themselves.

[bluestateguy]

54. Yes, I learned about this case from 99 years ago

I've known about it for quite some time.

It's a part of our history that we need to know about.

But ISIS is here and now. The people that killed Jesse Washington are all dead now.

[hfojvt]

68. I find it disingenuous

that Moyers says 1968.

twice

1968!

according to this count 49 lynching happened between 1939 and 1964
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html

meaning 99% of the lynchings happened before 1939, and zero happened between 1964 and 1968. So 1968 is padding it a little, and 99.79% of the lynchings happened before 1951, and 1922 was the last year the number of lynchings was over 35 a year. Compared to 1901-1910, it was fairly rare after 1922.

and 27% of those lynched, were white people. Moyers tries to make those all about black people too "many of whom had been killed for sympathizing with black folks."

I am not sure I buy that, even though 47% of the white people were lynched in confederate states (plus Missouri) (where 94% of the black lynching victims hailed from).

Even in the case Moyers talks about - there was a murder. The crowd felt like it was killing somebody who had murdered a woman. Presumably many of the white people lynched were also suspected of murder or some other crime far more serious than just "sympathizing with black folks."

Of course, if you look at it another way, between 1988 and 2000 over 250 people per year in the US were sentenced to death, and between 1976 and 2011, 30 people per year were executed in the southern states, 56% of them from just Virginia and Texas. http://www.amnestyusa.org/pdfs/DeathPenaltyFactsMay2012.pdf

[niyad]

73. here is his use of 1968--TWICE--oh the horror of using that date TWICE:

Jesse Washington was just one black man to die horribly at the hands of white death squads. Between 1882 and 1968 — 1968! — there were 4,743 recorded lynchings in the US. About a quarter of them were white people, many of whom had been killed for sympathizing with black folks. My father, who was born in 1904 near Paris, Texas, kept in a drawer that newspaper photograph from back when he was a boy of thousands of people gathered as if at a picnic to feast on the torture and hanging of a black man in the center of town. On a journey tracing our roots many years later, my father choked and grew silent as we stood near the spot where it had happened.

[Kaleva]

71. Even back then people attempted to deflect attention from such atrocities by pointing to past events

They probably argued that we ought not to condemn the the white racists because the Crusaders, Inquisition, Puritans and so on were just as bad if not worse.

[totodeinhere]

76. I would rather concentrate my efforts at condemning ISIS and their barbarity.

Yes that incident in 1916 was horrific and barbaric. But what is most important at the present time is condemning atrocities that are happening now. It's too late to stop what happened in 1916 but it's not too late to stop ISIS. That's the difference.

[WinkyDink]

118. Thank you.

[MFrohike]

90. Creepy

It makes me wonder, as a southerner, if the south wasn't, and possibly still is, just a giant concentration camp if you were black. I think of what one writer said about the camps, that they were a place where the normal rules didn't apply and where those in power could do whatever they pleased. It's not nice to make that comparison and feel like it fits.

[Number23]

95. Jesus Christ almighty...

Instead, a courtroom mob dragged him outside, pinned him to the ground, and cut off his testicles. A bonfire was quickly built and lit. For two hours, Jesse Washington — alive — was raised and lowered over the flames. Again and again and again. City officials and police stood by, approvingly. According to some estimates, the crowd grew to as many as 15,000. There were taunts, cheers and laughter. Reporters described hearing “shouts of delight.”

When the flames died away, Washington’s body was torn apart and the pieces were sold as souvenirs. The party was over.

Barbaric savages. Monsters. Evil as hell. The whole fucking lot of them.

[polly7]

116. So horrible.

I can't call the things that did this to him human, or even animals .......... yes, they were monsters.

[BumRushDaShow]

100. Go to the "America's Black Holocaust Museum" website

and you'll see plenty from their online galleries.

http://abhmuseum.org/

The site was founded by lynching survivor James Cameron, who also wrote a book that I bought almost 20 years ago. The book is apparently about to be expanded and republished this year.

[WillyT]

103. Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[rstanleyj2918ca]

109. This is absolutely chilling.

It seems that the racism problem in this country has really gotten out of hand over the past few years. I fear things will only worsen as the RWers in this country keep on spreading their messages of hate. Truly unfortunate.

[Cha]

114. Damn.. unreal how anyone wouldn't get this.. on DU, especially. I could understand out

over the internet in other comment sections but, the fact is.. we have to acknowledge that there are those who have done unspeakable violence in this country that we condemn as well as that perpetrated by the murderous ******** ISIS, Boko Haram, and any other group of depraved killers.

Mahalo DV

[WinkyDink]

119. Speak for yourself. I'm sure I'm not alone here in recognizing the historical crimes by and within

the United States. I'd even start with Columbus.

However, history and a sawbuck will get you a cup of coffee, but won't do a damned thing to rid the world of the scourge that is ISIS.

[Cha]

121. I'm certainly not speaking to you. I'm talking directly to the OP and others who have a clue.

[WinkyDink]

117. Are examples of evil supposed to mitigate another one? What is the purpose of this example, then?

Neither the Crusades, nor the Inquisition, nor lynchings, nor the Khmer Rouge, nor the Nazis, nor the Gulag, nor Nanking, nor Joan of Arc, nor Armenia, nor...........

ANYTHING has ANY POINT. THERE IS NO POINT TO "COMPARE AND CONTRAST."

EACH EVIL IS SUI GENERIS AND MUST BE CONDEMNED, NOT IMPLICITLY EXCUSED AS "WELL, 'WE' OR 'YOU' ONCE DID IT, TOO, SOMEWHERE, FOR SOME SIMILAR REASON."

The Crusades did not "cause" ISIS savagery; ISIS in turn will not have "caused" any 22nd Century depredations.

Men do what they want to do, in love and war.

And humans will always come up with a rationale for any and all of their own behaviors, from the minor (See: Wms, Brian) to the major.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

126. Mitigate? Of course not.

The 'point' is to help prevent RWers from portraying 'Muslims' as subhuman evil, who do things saintly Christian types would never get up to. To help prevent the MIC from using propaganda that will support a continued and expanded war between the US and brown people worldwide, by undermining the noting that 'they' are barbarians, and 'we' are the sort of folks who would never do such things.

It's not an 'excuse' to say 'Hey wait, 'our side' did or does that sort of thing too.' It's actually a way to point out part of what you said - that we should deal with each evil act individually, and not simply put forth propaganda that sets entire groups of people to distrusting or hating each other based on specific actions of much smaller subsets of those peoples.

[ileus]

122. Another the actions of ISIS should be acceptable post.

we really shouldn't mind...


On another note this is why it's wise to always carry a sidearm and protect the 2A.

[kelliekat44]

155. Wow, look at how many lurkers stopped by to view the photo in this thread. nt

[glasshouses]

164. reaching