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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs there any way that sending arms to the Ukrainian military doesn’t escalate regional hostilities?
by Trevor Timm
Foreign Policys Stephen Walt explained why, in reality, arming Kiev is a very bad idea:
Arming Ukraine is not likely to convince Putin to cave in and give Washington what it wants. Ukraine is historically linked to Russia, they are right next door to each other, Russian intelligence has long-standing links inside Ukraines own security institutions, and Russia is far stronger militarily. Even massive arms shipments from the United States wont tip the balance in Kievs favor, and Moscow can always escalate if the fighting turns against the rebels, as it did last summer.
No one doubts Russia invading parts of Ukraine is disturbing and illegal, or that Putin is a conniving liar, but given that US weapons from its various ill-conceived arming operations have been found in the hands of Isis in Iraq and in Syria and just recently, that $400 million of military equipment to Yemen seems to have fallen into the hands of rebels the US considers its enemy maybe just this once we should consider the consequences of sending weapons first and asking questions later. Helping to escalate a military confrontation against the nation with the largest nuclear weapons supply in the world could have some consequences beyond the simple front page photograph of Russian-backed soldiers triumphantly holding up captured American-made weapons.
And if the burgeoning neocon renaissance movement needs a realpolitik reason to grasp why the arming Ukraine plan is idiotic, consider that doing so could be exactly the excuse that Russia which is universally seen to be on the decline and increasingly desperate actually wants to be able to justify overtly escalating its military campaign (which Walt also lays out in detail).
The bizarre give em weapons, itll all work out strategy was inadvertently summed up perfectly by perpetual warmonger Sen. Lindsey Graham, when he said: I dont know how this ends if you give Ukraine weapons. But I know this: I will feel better. (For more on foreign policy prowess from Lindsay Graham, read Michael Cohens Lindsay Graham: Wrong on Everything.)
This is all quite similar to the Congressional debate over whether to arm the Syrian rebels, which the Senate blindly voted for without barely discussing that the CIA had been doing so for well over a year prior with no success. Shortly after that vote, the New York Times reported that the CIA conducted a secret internal study that showed arming rebels in foreign conflicts almost never worked in the CIA 67-year history and more often than not, completely backfired into chaos or tragedy.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/11/anti-war-activist-arms-sales-ukraine-russia-secretary-of-state
moondust
(19,993 posts)My **guess** is that if you sent, for example, one battalion of tanks to Ukraine it would give Putin an excuse to send two battalions of tanks to Ukrainian rebels--much more quickly and much more easily serviced by nearby mechanics, spare parts, railroads, etc. Drones? I don't know but you can probably expect Putin will have them one day if he doesn't already.
Europe would no doubt rather avoid another Cold War arms race and/or hot war if at all possible. I'd advise listening to Merkel, Hollande, and others who have more at stake rather than McCain, Graham, and their gang of remote warmongers, chickenhawks, and defense profiteers who seem to believe they can bully a bully like Putin into submission.
Igel
(35,323 posts)"Sanctions will stop Putin." Perhaps in 5 years. If the West is cohesive enough to make sure that the sanctions stick. This is a risible proposition.
"If we don't provoke Putin, there'll be no escalation." But there was escalation. And another. And another.
To the point that in Donetsk the leaders said a month ago that they didn't expect things to lead to active fighting. It was supposed to go like Crimea. That worked really, really well.
Make the Russians pay. The Ukrainians will pay in any event.
Response to Igel (Reply #2)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)a government and arming an actual government. It's Russia who is trying to destabilize Ukraine via arms and troops. An unstable, failing Ukraine is in Russia's interests, according to Pooty. Western nations are searching for ways to stabilize Ukraine, and strengthening Ukraine's military capabilities sort of seems like a good way to do that--make Russia's job there harder and more costly. It's risky, but Pooty keeps upping the ante, and until we find a better solution, what else is there left to do?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)(FWIW we openly armed the Afghani, Libyan and Syrian rebels).
I'm slightly surprised to see DU in general taking the mainstream view. It's like the Bush years all over again, very little dissent is accepted.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)to rebels hasn't been great.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)interests, and maintain alliances because of how the alliances serve their interests. Russia seems to feel that toppling or hobbling smaller, weaker neighbors is in its interests. The West, for various reasons, disagrees, and we did make a promise to help Ukraine maintain its territorial integrity under Clinton--for us to ignore that is to cast at least a little doubt on all other security guarantees we've made, which is destabilizing in itself (notably, we don't want any doubt cast upon our Pacific treaties). Putin is like a toddler who figured out that constantly making one mess after another gives him/Russia more power, more stature on the world stage--keep everyone running around putting out fires, and that gives you more power. They can't compete as a responsible, reliable partner nation with a healthy economy, so they play the spoiler, sending out provocative bomber and fighter flights, propping up rogue regimes and sucking up opportunities wherever they can to poke the West's eye and level the field. This is where we find ourselves.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)which implies that the entire war on terror and subsequent invasions was based on a lie.
We see the same pattern again and again of propaganda and demonization. That doesn't mean that Putin is a good guy. It just means that he has rational reasons for reacting the way he did and dissenters on our side have rational reasons for not trusting the motives and objectives on our side.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)acting in Russia's best interests. He might believe that, but it's simply not true. He has turned Russia back into a pariah, their economy is going down the shitter, and he's pouring more money into defense than they have to spend.
Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #12)
CJCRANE This message was self-deleted by its author.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Ukrainians by banning the language they spoke for generations. THAT sent a warning to the East of what was to come from a Govt that at the time, had been not been legitimately elected. To put it in perspective, imagine of there was a coup here, by let's say, people who wanted Spanish to be the National Language, and their first act was to BAN ENGLISH. I guess we, being the nice people we are, would just take it, and wait for the next bomb to fall??
That sent chills down the spines of the people of the East. Crimea immediately sought protection from the Kiev Govt by voting to annex itself to Russia. Seems it was a smart move, as the Kiev Military has left them alone so far.
To your point regarding who is attacking whom.
Did Eastern Ukr send military forces into Western Ukraine? I don't remember that. Did Russia?
Not that I know of.
The Kiev Govt sent the military into EASTERN UKR. Iow, it was the other way around what you are claiming.
Now imagine of that happened here. The govt is overthrown, even the Bush govt. THAT government sends the military to the North East and starts trying to take over New York, let's say.
What would we do after seeing people killed by what is claiming to be 'their own government?
Facts are important. Eastern Ukr were not the aggressors in this now tragic Civil War. But they are fighting back. Which is what happens when you attack your own people militarily. You start a Civil War.
malaise
(269,084 posts)with the same result
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I wouldn't be surprised to see the Russian play move all the way west to incorporate Moldova which also has a pro-Russian bloc that is strong enough to closely rival it's opposition pro-EU bloc.
Control of the Black Sea coast all the way to Romania would provide significant economic and strategic value to Russia.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Perhaps that will deescalate regional hostilities. Surely Russia would stop the supply of arms to the separatists who would stop fighting if the Ukrainian government had no weapons.
I don't think supplying arms to Kiev will improve the situation, but I am far from absolving the responsibility on the other side.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)There's a long history of it.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)who just started to pay attention to this story for the first time last week and are already 'experts'
How many more times I gotta say it: Russia is ALREADY escalating, and will continue to escalate regardless of whether or not we give some weapons to the Ukrainians (and we owe them that much, at least...)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it...
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Putin is a classic bully. He will keep pushing into the Ukraine until someone fights back.
Pushing back might actually help the situation with a guy like him.