A Bid for Guns on Campuses to Deter Rape

[antigop]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/us/in-bid-to-allow-guns-on-campus-weapons-are-linked-to-fighting-sexual-assault.html

As gun rights advocates push to legalize firearms on college campuses, an argument is taking shape: Arming female students will help reduce sexual assaults.

[samsingh]

1. that is just another ruse to sell more guns

it will result in needless deaths. the rapists can also have guns too.- that's the gun lobby plan - more guns for everyone.

[Scuba]

2. Gee, ya think?

[GGJohn]

18. If what you say were true, then why hasn't this happened at the campuses

that allow for concealed carry?

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Sure, and it will probably end up putting more women in jail. Somehow that

happens when women shoot men.

[el_bryanto]

4. Salon had a good take down on this argument this morning

And again, in a system where most rapists will never be held accountable for their crimes, asking women to shoot with the confidence that the law is on their side is a dangerous request. It’s not hyperbole to suggest that advocating the use of lethal force in a culture in which many conservatives argue that most rape on college campuses is just “regretted sex” is a recipe for criminalizing women for surviving.

In fact, we have already seen women criminalized for acting in self-defense. Marissa Alexander was incarcerated after she fired a warning shot to defend herself against her abusive partner. She was incarcerated for four years, and is still under house arrest for firing a shot that harmed no one but may have saved her life. And we have already seen how existing self-defense laws leave out victims of domestic violence. In South Carolina, another state considering such a measure under the guise of rape prevention, prosecutors have argued that domestic violence victims are not covered by stand your ground.

“[The state Legislature’s] intent… was to provide law-abiding citizens greater protections from external threats in the form of intruders and attackers,” prosecutor Culver Kidd told the Post and Courier in October. “We believe that applying the statute so that its reach into our homes and personal relationships is inconsistent with [its] wording and intent.”

from "The right’s latest rape lunacy: Guns on campus won’t prevent rape — but they will put women in jail for self-defense" by Katie McDonough

Bryant

[antigop]

7. thanks for that, I had not seen it. nt

[Major Nikon]

5. So the NRA said it, so it must be TWUE!

Also found in the link is someone with a few more synapses firing than crème-de-la-dum Wayne LaPierre

“It reflects a misunderstanding of sexual assaults in general,” said John D. Foubert, an Oklahoma State University professor and national president of One in Four, which provides educational programs on sexual assault to college campuses. “If you have a rape situation, usually it starts with some sort of consensual behavior, and by the time it switches to nonconsensual, it would be nearly impossible to run for a gun. Maybe if it’s someone who raped you before and is coming back, it theoretically could help them feel more secure.”

[glasshouses]

6. I have no problem with women who want to arm themselves but

most rapes happen at parties from too much alcohol at most colleges .

Guns and alcohol are not a good combination

[Comrade Grumpy]

8. Most campus sexual assaults seem to involve alcohol. Booze and guns. Good combination.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Holy f***ing WOW!

In any other thread about sexual assault if people were to pile in and go, "Yes, well, alcohol and parties furble-burble-blah-burble" there would be a friggin' riot righteously decrying this victim-blaming BS but let the subject turn to women who choose to defend themselves and suddenly it's the 1950s in here.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. …

the idea that everyone should go about armed in order to prevent crimes being committed against them is a sign of a profoundly broken and dysfunctional society. The framing of "let women arm themselves to defend against rape" is a feel-good reason for gun lobbyists to get guns onto university campuses. It is not really a reasonable solution, nor is it really meant as one.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. Nobody is saying everyone should be armed.

But let's not let that stop you from patting women on the head and explaining what's best for them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. "Not being shot" is best for women.

Allowing guns on campus will not lead to a significant change in the number of women on campuses who are raped.

It will, however, lead to a significant increase in the number of women on campuses who are shot.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. "Allowing guns on campus will not lead to a significant change in the number of women"

It'll matter to those who defend themselves. No one is required to take one for the team.

It will, however, lead to a significant increase in the number of women on campuses who are shot.

Less than 5% of sexual assaults, regardless of location, involve a perpetrator with a gun. In other words, a woman with a gun has a 5% chance of being on equal terms with her attacker.

In every other situation she'll hold the superior advantage.

[GGJohn]

21. Then why hasn't this happened on the college campuses that allow

concealed carry?

[surrealAmerican]

23. This is the second time you've posted this question ...

... so, I'm going to ask: what has happened on campuses that allow concealed carry? Do you have statistics about the rates of crime, particularly rape, on those campuses? Has it changed much either way?

[GGJohn]

24. No idea,

I was just asking why there aren't shootings on the college campuses that allow for concealed carry.
There's a lot of hand wringing here about allowing concealed carry on college campuses, yet it hasn't been a problem for those that allow it, so why would it suddenly become a problem?

[surrealAmerican]

28. How do you know there hasn't been a problem if you don't know the statistics?

I'm not saying there has - I don't know the statistics either. Not every crime makes the news. Without the data, we shouldn't assume there is no problem.

[GGJohn]

31. Because it would've been trumpeted from the mountain tops

if a CHL'er had shot someone on a college campus that allows for CCW.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. Women in universities are not the people calling for this.

Republican state legislators with NRA backing are the people calling for this. And the reason they're really doing it has less to do with protecting woment han it does with removing bans on guns on college campuses.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. Amanda Collins might disagree with that characterization.

[JaneyVee]

20. SEND GUNS TO COLLEGES!

~> http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/19/3624730/mental-health-college/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. People are capable of choosing for themselves.

If they have to be nannied then let's ban alcohol too since 1) everybody says that's the real cause of sexual assault and 2) alcohol is a depressant.

[el_bryanto]

26. I did post the article from Salon

But I don't think it's about how woman can't defend themselves; I think it's more about if they do defend themselves the same legal system that often excuses rape, will condemn women trying to defend themselves.

Bryant

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. So, if women can be assqaulted with impunity and will be prosecuted if they defend themselves

perhaps it is time to end the co-ed college system.

Unless this is only about the guns rather than women, education and safety.

[el_bryanto]

33. I don't have a strong opinion on the guns/no guns argument.

And generally avoid the discussion (although not always) - my opinion is more that it would be that we need to fix our justice system so that women have the same legal protections as men. I think it's accurate that if a woman shoots a man she thinks is going to rape her, the courts are less than likely to back her up, but I don't think that's the way it out to be.

Bryant

[GGJohn]

34. +1000. eom.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. The old saying goes --

"Better judged by 12 than carried by 6."

I appreciate the evenness of your replies. Thank-you

[Erose999]

10. Whose going to deter the shootings? I, for one, don't want to be a bystander in drunken fratboy

shootouts that WILL happen because of this bullshit.

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/athens/2015/02/16/shots-fired-in-frat-spat/23498539/

[Yavin4]

11. Next: A Bid for Guns on playgrounds to deter bullying n/t

[NightWatcher]

13. Either that or you've just armed the rapists, dumbass

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. Rapists obey laws?

[uppityperson]

41. What?

To address one point, the man who raped me followed some laws. I am not sure what your statement has to do with having guns legally on campus though.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. The person I originally responded to said the change in the rules would allow rapists to

arm themselves. I doubt rapists wait for changes to rules before deciding to act.

[uppityperson]

47. Ah, thanks. I read it as rapists then having easy access to a gun when they attack someone.

[Initech]

16. Yes because arming someone is always the answer to every problem!

[Blue_Tires]

22. And now would-be rapists will just arm themselves

and shoot anyone who resists...

Either way, more guns and ammo are sold, so it's win-win for the lobbyists....

[GGJohn]

25. What makes you think that rapists aren't already armed? eom.

[Blue_Tires]

29. Doesn't matter, since this "proposal"

has nothing to do with prevention of campus rape, and everything to do with spurring more gun sales...

[GGJohn]

32. Maybe, maybe not.

But it hasn't been a problem for the campuses that do allow for concealed carry.

[Blue_Tires]

42. Campuses also notoriously under-report their incident statistics

and I have no idea what armament is supposed to deter drugged/drunken/passed out date rape, which is the vast majority of cases...

[SheilaT]

36. Such a great idea!

I mean, even people who should know how to handle guns have been known to screw up pretty badly. But getting them into the hands of even more untrained people? Yeah. Great idea.

Hope no one really needs the sarcasm thingie.

[Glassunion]

37. A bid for guns on Wall St. to deter fraud.

[ileus]

38. It's beats being a willing victim.

[Warpy]

39. No, it will just arm the rapists

who will then be more inclined to kill their victims so there isn't a witness.

Gun nuts always think the answer to every problem is MORE GUNZ.

It isn't.

[GGJohn]

40. What would lead you to believe that a rapist isn't already armed? eom.

[LeftyMom]

44. This is the stupidest damned argument ever, because it entirely ignores human nature.

Rapes are far more likely to be committed by somebody one knows and trusts than by a stranger. The notion that a women should be carrying on dates so they can defend themselves against date rapists is bizarre. So is the notion that a woman who did so wouldn't wind up behind bars, sadly.

The gun-as-rape-defense argument ignores this. Because the argument isn't about protecting women at all, it's about using women as a shield for the gun lobby.

That it's almost always made by men who shout women's objections down and who usually have long track records of misogynist bullshit should be the only clue one needs as to the real intent.