Did you know a college degree in some cases means lower CAR INSURANCE RATES ????

[randys1]

The people who need the lowest rates the most are the last ones to get them.

This is discrimination, you might as well draw a RED LINE thru education as opposed to neighborhoods.


http://www.carinsurance.com/kb/education-and-auto-insurance-rates.aspx

I posted this link but you dont have to rely on it, what I am telling you is true. There are specific occupations or professions where you get a credit as well.

It may not be in all states, but many.



Let me know when you want your

[SickOfTheOnePct]

1. It's really only discrimination if there is no valid basis for the assessment

which there appears to be.

For example, New Jersey’s Department of Insurance did a comprehensive study into the use of occupation and education factors in auto insurance. As part of the report, car insurance companies’ detailed loss data revealed that different occupation and education levels had different degrees of loss, thus making use of these factors valid.

[randys1]

2. That is all you need? That one study that has an interest in making those findings given

that the companies are clamoring for it?

You do understand that DOI's are often very political, and if they are headed by rightwingers, they will get the results they want, or if Governor is rightwinger, etc.



For profit insurance is a scam.

All insurance should be nationalized, take the profit out of it.

common sense

[SickOfTheOnePct]

4. I don't need anything

as I'm not an insurance company that's setting rates. I was just pointing out something in the article you posted.

[randys1]

3. THen I assume you are good with credit checks being a factor as well?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

6. I don't know

Is a bad credit score an indicator of being more likely to file a claim?

[randys1]

8. It is in the link...Could be an indication of not paying your premium on time as well.

By admitting that you think these things are OK, you are exposing the EXTREME problem with for profit insurance, arent you?

You DO see that?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

13. I don't have a problem with for profit car insurance n/t

[randys1]

15. Thank you, I do...just like I see a problem with for profit electric and gas companies and water co

[SickOfTheOnePct]

21. To each his own n/t

[randys1]

23. Are you in favor of for profit health insurance?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

24. Nope

I believe health care is a human right...car insurance, not so much.

[randys1]

26. How about water? Is that a human right?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

27. Yes, but it has to be paid for

There are costs associated with providing it, wouldn't you agree?

And to save you some typing, I'll let you know now that I'm not going to engage in a "do you favor this????!!!!" "Do you believe in that?????!!" back and forth with you. You and I obviously don't agree on car insurance, so we'll just leave it there.

[randys1]

29. Everything has to be paid for in that labor is required.

[Adrahil]

52. Water is tricky.

I think water IS a basic right. But I also don't want some asshat wasting tons of it just because it's free.

I think every household should get the "average" amount of water (based on household size) for free. After that, ya get charged.

[Nye Bevan]

5. Are you in favor of women paying less for car insurance, because they are less prone to road rage,

and have fewer accidents? How about women paying less for life insurance because they tend to live longer?

If people with college degrees have fewer accidents, why should they not pay lower insurance premiums?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

7. That's my point as well

If (note I said "if&quot education level has been shown to be indicative of increased claims, then I don't see a problem with using it to set rates.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Would you apply the same actuarial data / stereotype to race?

Should white people have different insurance rates than black people?

[Nye Bevan]

16. No, I think it should be illegal for any company to ask customers what their race is,

in order to minimize the possibility of racial discrimination.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. So sex discrimination is okay, but racial discrimination is not? n/t

[Nye Bevan]

33. For auto insurance and life insurance, my answer is "yes". (nt)

[davidn3600]

36. Why do I doubt you'd have that opinion if the situation was reversed?

If women were paying more than men for car insurance, we'd have marches in the streets and demand for legislation.

I get it... trust me, I do. Men, especially white men, are the "privileged class" and therefore some discrimination in your view would be acceptable. But it does present the appearance of hypocrisy no matter how you try to slice it.

[Nye Bevan]

47. Well.... men get more generous annual payments when they buy annuities.

So it does work both ways.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Good point. So why shouldn't men get a larger Social Security annuity payment?

Either that or an earlier retirement age - for the same reason; we die younger.

If sex-based discrimination to account for actuarial factors is appropriate in the insurance business, then there are ample reasons to justify differential SS policies.

[we can do it]

92. It's not sex discrimination if men are more likely to get in an accident.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. Would it be sex discrimination to pay men larger SS payments because they die younger?

Actuarily, it's what an annuity should do.

Women are more likely to go to the doctor, yet women's rights groups had no problem calling gender based rating of health insurance rates "the woman penalty" and thus discriminatory.

The selective nature of "discrimination" (bad things happening to women, and only women) drives me nuts.

[davidn3600]

32. But they ask what gender you are. They ask your salary and your zip code

They look at your credit score. They ask if you are a homeowner.

Could any of these questions lead to discrimination?

[tabbycat31]

115. YOu realize people can tell race without asking

Just by looking at the name of the applicant. Sad fact but I'll give you an example

Juan Hernandez
Jacob Smith
Tyrone Jones

Pretty easy to guess the race of these three men. The book Freakonomics did this with employment and found their white applicant had more callbacks than their black applicant.

[randys1]

14. and those with better credit, so you love capitalism and it sounds like you have

just concluded that poor people without educations should pay twice what others pay for the same thing?

Say yes please

[Nye Bevan]

17. Is there statistical data showing that those with better credit have fewer auto accidents? (nt)

[randys1]

18. What if there is?

[Travis_0004]

34. Then they pay less for insurance because they are less risky.

[randys1]

85. Great question, actually the main reason they use credit score is poor people are more likely

to struggle making their payments, thus causing the company to issue cancellation notices and warnings and follow ups, etc. (all this costs time and money)

So, since you are poor or close to it, 98% of them because of reasons BEYOND their control, they are punished on the pretense that you might be late with some payments.

Now you tell me, is that fair?

Again, like with the credit for education, the people who can LEAST afford to pay more are paying more, the people who can most afford to pay more are paying less for the EXACT Same thing.

Please tell me you see a problem with this.

[yeoman6987]

83. I hardly think it is double.

I am single and pay more. Big whoop. Everyone gets a little screwed with insurance at some point in their lives. Holy cow under 25 year olds have it the worst!

[Drahthaardogs]

117. You exaggerate a bit.

You pay twice as much for insurance if you have a DUI, lots of tickets, or have filed a lot of claims. My wife is a broker. Credit scores and a college degree are not going to determine who pays twice as much. Car insurance is really one of the few products out there where price is readily determined by habits and decisions. IF you have a history of bad decisions and irresponsible behavior, you are going to pay through the nose... as you should. If you are a safe driver, you pay less.

Please quit saying things like a college degree can reduce your premiums by 1/2. That is bullshit.

[hack89]

9. If statistically you are a lower risk then you should pay lower rates.

I don't see the problem with this.

[randys1]

11. Who complies the stats? Each state is different?

Credit reports do have some impact, so we charge poor people more for the same thing?

Please say yes if that is what you believe

[hack89]

19. Insurance companies do their own actuarial research

assigning risk is at the heart of their industry and they are very good at it. Same thing applies to credit - the greater risk of default the higher the interest rate.

[HappyMe]

12. I agree.

I don't see what is wrong with this.

[randys1]

22. THIS IS WHY our version of capitalism is a joke, which was my whole point here.

And, we are in big trouble when both political persuasions see no problem charging poor people more than rich people for the same thing.


Socialized insurance is clearly what is needed, unless you are a pure capitalist, then no matter WHO is harmed by capitalism, you are OK with it.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

25. Up there with the most ridiculous things I've ever heard

which is really saying something.

Anyone that doesn't have a problem with charging more to those that are most likely to file claims is thereby a pure capitalist that doesn't care who is harmed?

I admire how you can maintain an almost constant level of outrage - I'd be exhausted.

[Oktober]

65. Should people with higher risk pay the same as those with lower risk?

Why?

[whatthehey]

66. Except this is not true

I had the same (excellent) credit rating when I made 1/4 of my current income and was an indebted renter, for the simple reason that I paid my bills then as now.

Credit rating and wealth are not synonymous. In fact many fairly wealthy types who are driven to entrepeneurship have terrible FICOs. The richest person I know personally owns literally dozens of houses, yet has to pay 7% interest when he wants to use the bank's money rather than his own to buy more because of his terrible credit rating, whereas I can walk in and get low 3's even though he could buy and sell me ten times over. Can't say we've talked much about auto insurance, which is based on many other factors too, but would not surprise or worry me, or him, if it were similar.

Actuaries are quite well paid and extremely well educated. I paid more insurance at 21 than 41 for a reason. I pay more than my female relatives for a reason. I pay less than irresponsible people for a reason.

[ND-Dem]

81. anecdotes about youself or 'wealthy types' are not evidence. fact is, the poor pay more

for insurance. Simply because they live in the wrong zip code in many cases.

The poor pay more for auto insurance and that ain't fair. That's the executive summary of a new study by the Consumer Federation of America funded by the Ford Foundation that calls for an end to de facto price discrimination based on questionable rating factors.

CFA executive director Stephen Brobeck and director of insurance J. Robert Hunter unveiled their findings at a press teleconference on Monday. The study focused on the economic impact of auto insurance on low- and moderate-income consumers, defined as the roughly 40 percent of us with annual incomes below $40,000.

It wasn't exactly breaking news that many low-income drivers struggle to afford required car insurance these days; all states except New Hampshire mandate liability coverage and four-fifths require uninsured motorist coverage. What was shocking was how badly these drivers are being treated by the auto insurance companies.


Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/financing/insurance/the-poor-pay-more-for-auto/#ixzz3SJ1dJQIr

[yeoman6987]

86. It has nothing to do with rich or poor

It has to do with which zip codes have the most accidents. I have paid more in some areas then others due to risk of accidents.

[ND-Dem]

90. funny, those zip codes with most accidents = poor and the ones with least = wealthy

The study focused on the economic impact of auto insurance on low- and moderate-income consumers, defined as the roughly 40 percent of us with annual incomes below $40,000...What was shocking was how badly these drivers are being treated by the auto insurance companies.

"The cost of minimum liability coverage varies by state, but is affected by a number of factors that are beyond or nearly beyond the driver's control, including age, gender, residence, education and occupation," says Hunter. "Many low- and moderate-income drivers, because of largely uncontrollable factors, pay a high price for auto insurance, even if they have maintained a perfect driving record and drive relatively few miles."

To prove it, CFA did the following real-life math using a 30-year-old single male from St. Louis with a perfect driving record who commutes 20 miles per day:

If he was an executive in an exclusive suburb, his rate was $558.

If he only had a high school diploma, his rate went up $71.

If he had been unemployed for a period, his rate went up $84.

If he moved to a lower-income ZIP code, his rate went up $347.

If he paid on installments, his rate went up $60.

If he was uninsured for a period, his rate went up a whopping $638.

If he didn't have a car for a time, his rate went up $337.

"This drives what used to be a $558 rate to $2,095, an increase of $1,537," notes Hunter. "None of these factors are affiliated with risk, yet you can see that his rate went up almost four-fold just by changing a few of those factors.

Insurers have never provided a thesis on many of these factors on why they measure risk. We think these factors are surrogates for income, which is forbidden to be used by all the states, and the use of these proxy factors should not be allowed in our estimation."


Read more: http://www.bankrate.com/financing/insurance/the-poor-pay-more-for-auto/#ixzz3SJ9cauo1
Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook

[yeoman6987]

100. It actually makes extremely good sense

Wealthy areas don't have to navigate into parallel parking.....less traffic.....less crime.....and above all less accident. I think it is a terrific and fair way to use car insurance. I am sorry that the St. Louis person has to pay more but really he is in an areas that has a ton of accidents. Sure his insurance goes up without a college education but that was a small factor...71 bucks for the year is not that much really after spending 50 Grand to get it. I mean wow you saved 71 dollars a year on car insurance....how lucky for you....Not. (not really). And all those other examples are well known.......You never cancel insurance....unless you have new insurance ready to go.....you don't pay installments.....I did in my 20's but no more of that. A lot of this is part of growing up. You learn wisdom and what to do to save on insurance. I wish I knew a lot of these factors when I was starting out. So now that it is known a lot can be done to change it. Don't forget the biggest insurance savings is being married.....I don't get that big huge reduction......unfortunately for me....but I will live.

[ND-Dem]

101. none of the items in that list had to do with how many accidents there are & in fact the

scholars said that no one *knows* the basis for the rating items as they're not public.

being married is also an item which favors rich over poor. and has little to do with driving skills.

[yeoman6987]

103. Perhaps writing a letter to your Congressman would help your cause

I am sorry but this just doesn't do it for me. I am grateful to have car insurance and I have had it for 20 years and have gone from paying around 2000 a year to now paying around 600 a year. That is the greatest thing about getting older.......until age 60 when it goes up again.



But please write your congressman and perhaps a few others that seem to agree this is an important Democratic issue and maybe you feel that the Democratic Nominees should discuss their feelings on it. Unfortunately for me I find the system fair and accurate. And certainly not discriminatory.

[FBaggins]

108. Sorry. That's incorrect

None of these factors are affiliated with risk

That's simply wrong. Most of them should be expected to correlate with risk of insured loss.

Let's take a look:

If he paid on installments, his rate went up $60.

Well... that one doesn't have anything to do with risk. But it's also unlikely to have been a premium change. It's almost certainly a proxy fee for financing the premium. This is like saying that we discriminate against poor people in housing because a rich person can write the $250k check while the poor person pays twice as much (or more) because he isn't paying cash.

If he was uninsured for a period, his rate went up a whopping $638.

This is actually insurance 101. Insurance changes behavior. A person who has the option of insuring and switches back and forth can absolutely be expected to have greater expenses than either the average uninsured person OR the average insured person. I only sign up for eycare insurance at work every other year. Care to guess how my expenses vary between those two years?

However... given the size of the premium increase, I'd suspect that the sample case games the system a bit (e.g., maybe it's someone on the Indiana PUMR list)

If he was an executive in an exclusive suburb, his rate was $558.
If he moved to a lower-income ZIP code, his rate went up $347.

They're playing games with these two. There's no insurance question that tells them that you're "an executive"... that just adds to the narative (but their field can certainly impact rates). Nor have they demonstrated the begged-question income level of the two addresses (though it's a reasonble assumption). All they really did was provide two different addesses for the same potential customer... and that absolutely impacts risk. In a paricularly poor area:

* The car is more likely to be stolen or vandalized...
* Tthe roads will be less-well-maintained (as will be the cars), narrower, and with fewer safety features.
* Traffic is likely heavier.
* Cars are more likey to be parked on the street.
* Police and firefighters arrive slower.
* Other motorists are more likely to be uninsured.

We could go on and on. Find a neighborhood will all of these factors that certainly impact insurance claims... and you're likely also looking at a poorer neighborhood as well, but they can't pretend that they just told the insurance company "oh... and I've moved to an area with higher incomes". They gave two addresses that had very different risk profiles.

They could easily game the system here as well by picking zip codes with other differences. If I move from NC to a Dallas suburb with an identical income level, my rates could double.

If he didn't have a car for a time, his rate went up $337.

They claim that their sample customer had a perfect driving record (which I'm sure we can agree impacts risk)... but you can't get a "good driver discount" if you haven't been a driver. Go long enough without driving regularly and it's reasonable to expect that your driving skills are not what they once were.

In some areas, this has become illegal, but that doesn't change the fact that it does impact risk.

If he had been unemployed for a period, his rate went up $84.

This one is more complex. Many people actually get lower rates during unemployment (because they often drive fewer miles and sometimes fewer cars), but CFA didn't make those adjusments. My guess would be that it's more likely that you won't be able to afford to pay the deductible in the event of an accident and thus less likely to repair the vehicle.

[whatthehey]

95. But wealth and credit score are still different things no matter what you say

The poor tend to live in higher crime areas with less off street parking and thus greater risk too. That also increases rates, also for sensible reasons.

If there were a massive industry-wide conspiracy to jack it to the poor for non-actuarial reasons, some enterprising bit-player or new entrant would have undercut the cartel and swooped up all that extra profit long before now, forcing the others to match prices or lose out on a large demographic.

You obviously are no fan of capitalism, but surely you at least understand how it works in that there is no emotional component involved. If return were significantly higher on insuring the poor, which this thread contends it must be since it accepts no reasons related to higher risk, more companies would compete more vigorously for that market segment.

[ND-Dem]

97. we're talking about car insurance. and i gave you the results of a study. why don't you

talk about that instead of your own opinions and biases.

[marble falls]

116. Why not include a nickle a gallon insurance premium? Everybody'd be an insured driver.

[gladium et scutum]

114. Let me get this

I smoke a pack and half of camel cigarettes a day, eat lots of red meat and few veggies. sit on my ass and watch the boob tube 10 hours a day. my health insurance should be not more expensive than the man my age that does not smoke, eats a balanced diets, and exercises on a regular basis. Is this my understanding of socialized insurance?

[Man from Pickens]

28. This is the equivalent of charging higher prices for black people

It's an obscene form of discrimination in the context of mandatory auto insurance with criminal penalties behind them.

Such policies cannot co-exist with equal treatment under law. The only thing that should have an impact on your rates is your driving record.

[randys1]

30. Finally, THANK YOU, and you pointed out something I am ashamed I forgot about

MANDATORY that you pay MORE than the rich guy...wow, it is even worse than I said it was


Although in some states if you default to what is known as "assigned risk" those rates are often controlled tightly by the DOI

But how can you buy a house without insurance?

you cant if you have a mortgage

[davidn3600]

31. Do people who have college degrees have less accidents?

[Adrahil]

51. I get what you're saying....

But actuarial categories are reasonably predictive.

I'd favor an actuarial model that phases out predictive risk assessment and replace it with your record as time goes on. But if you lower rates for people in higher risk categories, you have to raise them for people in lower risk categories, because math.

[pipi_k]

61. "This is the equivalent of charging higher prices for black people"

Not even close.


It wouldn't be right to charge higher rates for blacks because there's not a damned thing they can do to change their race. Try as they might, the possibility is zero.



OTOH, charging more for age, where someone lives, bad credit record, even lack of college degree. Those are all things it would be possible to change.


Oh, and as to the original issue here, that some insurance companies would give lower rates to college graduates...I don't have a college degree. It doesn't bother me in the least that someone who does have a degree might be able to get a lower rate.


Maybe it's just me, but I guess I've gotten to the age where I'm not going to spend my time whining like a four year old over whether someone else might be getting a bigger cookie than I did.

[Man from Pickens]

63. There's not a person in the world

who would change those things simply to get a lower auto insurance rate.

For example, who is going to get a college degree just to pay less to drive? A lot of people are unsuited for college, anyway, either by temperment or intellect or even just lack of interest. By what right should I be forced - and I need to make perfectly clear here, the involuntary nature of the situation is vital to recognizing the injustice - to pay more to drive than a neighbor next door with a degree?

I really don't see how an insurer can justly take into account any aspect of a person's life that has absolutely nothing to do with driving, as long as the force of law demands that unwilling customers buy their product. I can understand to some degree that location has an impact on cost due to cost of living differing in different regions, but having your rate go up if you move one block away and end up in a different zip code is just crazy.

[pipi_k]

70. I didn't say WOULD

I said COULD.

If you want to talk about unfairness, then it has to be something a person absolutely positively cannot ever change.

Like his race. Never ever gonna change.


Now, a person may not want to change his education status or his marital status or where he lives, but my point is, that he can if he wants to.

[Man from Pickens]

82. Those things simply aren't relevant to driving

While they may make perfect sense from an actuarial point of view, the existence of a legal mandate brings civil rights into play - the insurer is an extension of the law, and once that happens it is a violation of equal treatment under law to use factors that would be unlawful discrimination in any other context.

[kelly1mm]

64. Is it ok to charge higher rates on gender such as males paying more than females? Kind of like:

It wouldn't be right to charge higher rates for males because there's not a damned thing they can do to change their gender. Try as they might, the possibility is zero.

Right?

[pipi_k]

71. If it's proven

that males and females have the same rates of accidents, then it's unfair to charge males more.


If males have more accidents than females, then why wouldn't it be OK to charge them more even though they can't change their gender?

[Man from Pickens]

96. Enter the law

Again, once the law makes the insurance mandatory, it becomes unequal treatment under law to charge people higher prices based on gender.

[F4lconF16]

105. Change "males" to "whites" and "females" to "blacks" and I think it may help.

Here:

If it's proven that whites and blacks have the same rates of accidents, then it's unfair to charge whites more.

If whites have more accidents than blacks, then why wouldn't it be OK to charge them more even though they can't change their race?

[kelly1mm]

111. Wait, what? Wasn't your whole point that charging more based on unchangable characteristics

wrong? If it is OK to charge males more if they cause more accidents, why would it not also be OK to charge more if other unchangeable characteristics (such as race) were also shown to have more accidents?

[ND-Dem]

94. +100

[One_Life_To_Give]

35. Not surprising

May have to do with where the vehicle is typically parked which varies based upon income, type of occupation etc. While some parts may at first appear unrelated, they can be a window into other behavior which is not so easily quantified. Someone with an 850 Credit score probably pays more attention to other details as well. Which can in turn give them a different probability of having a claim.

[alarimer]

37. I've had my rates change because I moved within the same town.

From a worse neighborhood to a better one, they went down. And they went up when I moved to what I guess was a worse neighborhood. I mean all these neighborhoods looked the same to me. Maybe when the rates went down, I had moved to a place with lower rates of theft or break-ins.

[Glassunion]

38. Some cases. Not all.

There are many carriers who do not discriminate based on occupation or education.

State Farm, Allstate, USAA, Nationwide and Travelers do not use occupation or education level to weight their policy premiums.

We (wife and I) use State Farm (cars) and Progressive (my wicked motorcycle) for our motor vehicle insurance. Neither asked about education or job.

Oddly enough my wife's portion of the policy is higher for our cars than mine is. No accidents or tickets for either of us.

[randys1]

39. I think that is by state, not by carrier. I wont swear to this but if State Farm or whoever

is in a state where the competition is doing it, they will do it if they can. As they are in most states, and each state has different rules, they will behave based on that state, usually.


But I cant say that for each company, it is possible there are companies that NEVER do it in any state.

Bottom line is this is the new redlining...especially the credit score.


Now, the credit score usage is even worse, and I am pretty sure they all do that where it is legal.

[Glassunion]

44. No I do not think it is.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/consumer-group-auto-insurance-costs-more-without-a-college-degree/

[Sissyk]

53. Yep, State Farm for us.

Cars and house.

Never been ask for employment info, just through the mortgage of course. Never known them to check a credit score.

Hubby cost more than I do but he may be newer vehicle.

[smokey nj]

40. Driving record and payment history should be the only things used to determine auto insurance rates.

I'll give them a pass for charging more based on where the car will be parked (on street vs. driveway or garage),

[hack89]

58. Location is a very important factor though

not only are some place have higher claims due to poor roads, congestion, high rates of auto theft etc but there also huge differences in the cost of auto repairs.

[DrDan]

59. plus age and type of car, options, number of miles driven, where one lives, deductible

[Dreamer Tatum]

41. People who are lower risk pay less. Welcome to life - nice to meet you. nt

[mythology]

42. As long as it's backed up with solid statistical evidence

this is a good thing. I don't have a problem with encouraging good behavior and if having a college degree is positively correlated with having fewer accidents, then why not charge less, especially since more people being educated is a good thing on its own.

Most insurance companies also charge different fees based on the vehicle you drive based on the cost of the damage you can do. I remember back when I had just a motorcycle, my insurance was really cheap as it was pretty hard to do any damage to other vehicles. I got hit by somebody, my bike was totaled by the other driver's insurance and all I did was chip one of his headlights.

I really don't see why anybody would be upset by this. College education isn't a protected class like race is.

[F4lconF16]

107. So what about gender?

If it's not okay to set rates using race, why is it okay for gender?

Edit: also, what about trans people? If someone was female and changed to male, does that change their rate? What if I'm male but identify as female?

[rickford66]

43. Yup. I've been getting a discount for many years.

Their actuaries must have figured college grads are lower risks or they wouldn't give the discounts.

[Ruby the Liberal]

45. A host of things go into actuarial tables that measure risk

I was surprised at this as well - it happened to me. I switched insurance a few years back and was asked my highest level of education. I responded "masters degree" and was told, "Great! You qualify for the education discount". Didn't even know that was a thing.

[randys1]

46. Great for you, bad for guy who couldnt afford higher education and doesnt have Masters

[Ruby the Liberal]

48. You missed the point

Actuarial tables look at risk. Is it fair that teenage boys get more tickets, speed more, and are in more accidents than teenage girls? They (or their parents) typically pay 3-4x the rates until the rug rat ages out of that stage (whatever they deem that "age out" number to be).

No clue as to why they even looked at education as a measure of risk, but in order to remain competitive - it doesn't surprise me. Not that they rate down for higher ed, but that it is likely an excuse to rate up for the lack of one.

Look at it this way - in any given 2-3 year period - a careful/safe driver without a college degree will pay WAY less for the same coverage than a college graduate with annual wrecks and/or traffic violations under their belt.

You might be surprised at what all goes into those calculations. Are you aware that credit score is also a factor?

[Renew Deal]

69. I think that some of that is artificial too

Meaning that sometimes discounts are available to alumni of some schools through the alumni association. So if one didn't graduate from a school they wouldn't have access to that discount.

There are other clubs and associations that get discounts. Someone I know was in Mensa and got a discount for that.

[Ruby the Liberal]

112. I have heard of this

Don't recall if I was asked where I got my education, but do remember being surprised that it was even a factor.

[madinmaryland]

54. Oh, FFS! I suppose you are pissed off because my daughter who is in high school gets a discount

for having all A's and B's.



BTW, I got the same fucking discount for my Dad back in the 1970's for getting good grades.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

55. Yep

First daughter had great grades in high school, and we got a nice discount. Second daughter, not so much LOL, so we pay full freight for her insurance.

[randys1]

57. No, I am pissed the insurance industry has figured out a way to redline people and communities

and cause discrimination.

[madinmaryland]

60. So are you suggesting that auto insurance be nationalized?

I would much prefer that health care be nationalize than auto insurance.

[Renew Deal]

68. Are you upset that new drivers pay higher prices?

[yeoman6987]

89. Gosh it has been going on this way for 50 years

I started paying high insurance.....got some education, age, 3-year good record and FINALLY had a decent insurance rate. I don't think it will change and not really sure it needs to.

[JoePhilly]

49. This was true in the 80s.

Not sure NOW is the time to get the torches and pitch forks over it.

[Logical]

56. I bet the data shows they are safer. It is almost 100% a math problem. nt

[pipi_k]

62. You do realize, I hope...

that having a drivers license (meaning one can own and drive a vehicle and buy car insurance) is not a right, but a privilege?


That means your drivers license can be pulled for any damned reason at all and then what...pounding the pavement, taking the bus, riding a bicycle, or car-pooling with friends, that's what.


Having a drivers license (and, by extension, car insurance) is not a Civil Right, and it's not something worthy of torches and pitchforks.



PS...from the article you linked to:

If you don’t have a college degree, don’t get discouraged. Just because education can be used doesn’t mean it will, or that it makes that big of a difference.

So. All that outrage for basically nothing.

Another First World problem.

Really poor people are dying from lack of food or heat or medical care, while here in the US, some of us are having shitfits over something that may not happen, and even if it does, would probably not make that much of a difference. What...$20 a year maybe?

sigh...

[Renew Deal]

67. There are many factors. Location is another one

NY is one of the most expensive areas. This is an outrage!

Ok, not really. Insurance is based on risk. There are more cars in NY which means more accidents. There also used to be more crime. It's no surprise that education is another discount. Actuaries look at the numbers and can figure out which characteristics make for better risk. Education may be one of them. Location, driver age and experience, driving history are other factors.

[One_Life_To_Give]

72. Getting your car painted for only $99.99 should make insurance cheaper

Car repair must be Cheaper there cause Earl would paint any car for just $99.99

[randys1]

75. Did you know insurance companies reward agents for NOT selling to certain groups so as

to avoid paying claims?


ONe of the reasons they had to frame Elliot Spitzer and destroy him was he successfully sued several in NY state for doing just that, sadly that suit only stops those few carriers he managed to get, the rest are still doing it.


It is called red lining, it is illegal, so what they do is they create incentives to make sure the agent just doesnt sell insurance to certain neighborhoods, it is easy to do, hard to get caught.

But you are right, we should trust them, we should let them make their profits at our expense...


NOW CLASS, who knew about this?

Anybody wanna change their minds just a little now?

[Renew Deal]

77. Link to claim that are rewarding agents?

You made the claim. You might as well prove it.

Are you saying that Spitzer didn't hire the prostitutes? It was a hoax and never happened? I guess he admitted to lying as part of the conspiracy?

In the MSNBC interview, Spitzer acknowledged, "that's correct" that he lied about "illegal activity.

http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/eliot-spitzer-admits-i-lied-broke-the-law-1.5656203

And I'm not talking about the insurance companies doing anything illegal. I'm talking about the insurance companies legally calculating risk based on many factors and setting their prices.

Please post the link to where I said anything about "trusting" the insurance companies.

There is nothing to change my mind about. The insurance companies suck. But they operate by calculating risk and some people are better risks than others.

Are you offended by the insurance companies charging higher rates to younger drivers?

[randys1]

78. OMG, i am speechless that you are defending the action taken against Spitzer which was

taken because of who he was and what he did POLITICALLY

SPEECHLESS

Please watch the movie Client #9 and educate yourself as to what happened to him and why...

As to my claim, it is called profit sharing...

All or most independent insurance companies do it and ALL of them other than the ones Spitzer sued do it by offering bonuses based on

retention
new premium written
and most of all

LOSS RATIO

I cant prove it to you, you could ask ANY INSURANCE AGENT ANYWHERE IN AMERICA, the only way to prove it would be to post a copy of an agent's contract which I wont do

ANY and ALL Independent Insurance Agents will assure you this is the case.

[Renew Deal]

99. You still haven't answered my question about young drivers.

Last edited Fri Feb 20, 2015, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you offended/upset about younger drivers being charged higher rates?

Spitzer avoided prosecution because of "who he was"

In light of the policy of the Department of Justice with respect to prostitution offenses and the longstanding practice of this office, as well as Mr. Spitzer’s acceptance of responsibility for his conduct, we have concluded that the public interest would not be further advanced by filing criminal charges in this matter.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/no-federal-charges-against-spitzer

He got caught because call girls were being monitored for prosecution and he showed up as one of the clients.

For one thing, the governor initially drew the attention of federal investigators because of cash payments to an account operated by a call-girl ring, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of because of the sensitivity of the case.
<snip>

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/spitzer-caught-article-1.288370

And lets not forget that Spitzer admitted to the crime:

Mr. Spitzer said in a statement:


I understand the office of the United States attorney for the Southern District of New York has decided that it will not bring criminal charges against me. I appreciate the impartiality and thoroughness of the investigation by the U.S. attorney’s office, and I acknowledge and accept responsibility for the conduct it disclosed.

I resigned my position as governor because I recognized that conduct was unworthy of an elected official. I once again apologize for my actions, and for the pain and disappointment those actions caused my family and the many people who supported me during my career in public life.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/06/no-federal-charges-against-spitzer

Your claim that common insurance practice that you don't like is "illegal." If so, prove it. I don't think that's too much to ask.

[randys1]

104. I cant believeI am reading this on a Democratic website, too bad more people dont know of the

outrage about Spitzer.

That he was a corp giant slayer taken down by the giant, and that you are defending take down here at DU astounds me

Are you saying I have to prove that companies do profit sharing based on loss ratio?

If that is what you want proof of, i cant do that, but you could ask ANY independent insurance agent in North America

to prove it i would have to violate an agent's privacy

or an ins co, wont do that

[pipi_k]

79. Actually it involves

a whole lot more than just insurance


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining



Things like health care and supermarkets.



Which, IMO anyway, are way more important than car insurance

[randys1]

80. Agreed....but it is clear most Americans are clueless

and unable or unwilling to look at these issues.

At the base of all of it is our twisted and sick version of capitalism, which is a religion here.

[pipi_k]

84. So the question is...

why are most Americans unable or unwilling to look at those issues?

My own personal opinion is that people are suffering from issue burn-out. People struggling to pay bills and survive (as in the poor people most affected by higher car insurance rates) aren't going to care much about that issue even if it's against their best interests. We would think it doesn't make much sense, but that's what happens.

Then there are the people who aren't struggling to live, but they're off fighting other political battles. People can only deal with so many outrages at one time.

Your outrage might not be someone else's outrage and there's no way you can force someone to give up his or her own outrage to take up with yours.

That's just how things go...

[randys1]

87. pipi, thanks for that reasoned and polite response, but ALL of my outrages are NOT personal

I am making the case for the people they effect.

I wont post personal info, but my agenda is NOT based on my personal situation

And my agenda includes a broken system of capitalism, etc.

[MineralMan]

73. Lots of things affect auto insurance rates.

It's all based on statistical research on accident rates for different groups. Here are some of the factors:

Do you commute to work? Higher rates.
Do you live in an urban area? Higher rates.
Do you drive more miles annually than average? Higher rates.
Are you younger than 25? Higher rates.
Are you older than 60? Higher rates.
Do you drive a car with a V8 Engine? Higher rates.
Do you drive a high performance or sports vehicle? Higher rates.
Do you have tickets for moving violations? Higher rates.
Have you had an auto accident recently? Higher rates.
Do you live where it snows a lot? Higher rates.
Is your vehicle a popular, frequently-stolen model? Higher rates.

Do you own more than one vehicle? Lower rates per vehicle.
Are you a homeowner? Lower rates?
Do you live in a small city or rural area? Lower rates.
Do you have other policies with the company? Lower rates.
Have you taken adult driver's education classes? Lower rates, especially if you are a senior.
Do you have a spotless driving record? Lower rates.
Do you work at home? Lower rates.
Do you drive less than 5000 miles per year? Lower rates.
Does your vehicle have a small engine? Lower rates.
Is your vehicle a low-priced model? Lower rates.
Is your vehicle older and doesn't need collision insurance? Lower rates.

There are many other groups as well. All affect your insurance rates. All are based on statistical analysis.

[randys1]

74. For profit carriers discriminate to make the largest profit... when you HAVE to buy something

and you HAVE to buy it from a for profit company, like this or electricity or water, you are helpless.

Someday even Democrats will figure out what is at the base of our economic problems.

Capitalism.

The richest are making more and more off of insurance and everything else, and it cant get better if we insist on keeping this version of capitalism.

Why do we have internet that is more expensive and slower than ANY other country, let alone several?

Class?

Class?


(as to my comment about discrimination, they are using factors to red line communities and people, because they are FOR PROFIT, if mandatory products or services that we must have were not for profit, the ONLY people it hurts are the very wealthy)

The fact that I am receiving so much resistance on DU, of all places, means we will drive ourselves into mass poverty before we wake up, sad to say

[Bonx]

91. "the fact that I am receiving so much resistance on DU, of all places, means"

you might be wrong.

[randys1]

93. If you are OK with for profit companies using discrimination to profit from you, then I am wrong

[Bonx]

98. This isn't discrimination

[yeoman6987]

102. You are really wasting your time on this outrage

Sorry but get back on the equal pay or food insecurity because this is really not discrimination at all. It is a truly reasonable system in order for the insurance companies to not go bankrupt which would be awful by the way.....I hope you agree with that at least.

[Ruby the Liberal]

113. Is it discrimination to charge more for a 2015 Mercedes than

a 2005 Kia?

This isn't health care - it is personal property insurance.

[upaloopa]

76. I would like to see a public option for auto insurance.

The government sells you coverage based on your ability to pay and the vehicle you are insuring. You get collision medical and uninsured motorist insurance. It covers you and any damage you cause. All premiums go in to a pool that pays for administration and repairs and medical coverage. The government contracts with private companies to do the repairs and pays predetermined rates based on costs of parts and labor and overhead. It pays medical based on Medicare reimbursement rates.
Then you will see all those reasons to charge higher rates disappear.

[Taitertots]

88. People who cost more will have to pay more

Actuarial math is not a new phenomenon.

[cherokeeprogressive]

109. If drivers with degrees are seen as less of a risk, I believe there's an easy explanation for why...

I believe, since drivers with degrees have more money (something I've been told about a zillion times; a degree makes you worth more $ almost out of the gate) they are less likely to report accidents they're involved in. They take care of the damage themselves. They take care of the other person's car if they themselves are at fault.

I don't think the decision not to report an accident to one's insurance company is based wholly on economics. I think there might be a pride/embarrassment issue as well. If I have an accident, and am at fault, maybe I'd rather take care of this off the record rather than have to sit in front of some lowlife insurance company employee and answer questions. Then it becomes "Who does this person think they are? I have a Masters Degree and make $X,000,000 a year! I don't have time for this crap. Hell, I'm practically paying their damn paycheck."

What does this do to the actuarial tables? Obviously, it makes it seem as though drivers with degrees are safer and more attentive somehow. I do not at all believe this to be true. I know idiots who are excellent drivers, and doctorates who couldn't drive their way out of a paper bag. I have a degree and it doesn't bother me to say that. I came to my BA later in life than most, and had already learned to drive (I feel I'm one of the best drivers I've ever known if I do say so myself).

So in this context I don't think you should be bothered by their lower rates. In the first place; they're only insured because the law forces them to be. In the second; since they're not going to report as many accidents as they actually have, they're carrying a disproportionate share of the load, and I like that.