Help me understand, what is the anti Snowden/Greenwald folks belief as to why he leaked

[randys1]

and why Greenwald covered it the way he did. Or what are Snowden's motives if not to do the right thing?

And what are the pro Greenwald/Snowden folks going to do on election day no matter who the Dem candidate is?

I am just trying to understand where this is all coming from and if there is more to any of this than the issue at hand.

[Thinkingabout]

1. I am amazed at the ones who thinks Snowden was the first one who revealed the phone call data was

Being collected. He "revealed" in 2013, Bush revealed this in 2006. WTH were these people from 2006 to 2013? Snowden donated to the Libertarians so this may be in his game and perhaps he thought it may help Paul in 2012 or help Rand Paul in 2016. And the changing stories from the time he left the US of why he revealed any information he obtained while at the NSA only appears to give the fictional version behind the cloud. I have read some good spy novels and this is fiction to the bone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. So you think he would travel back in time to "help Paul in 2012"?

OK, it's good to know you have such a watertight argument ...

[Thinkingabout]

7. When did he go to NSA?

[Recursion]

11. Yeah, Drake went down the memory hole (nt)

[Thinkingabout]

12. Difference here was for those who was listening in 2006 we already knew the phone data was

Being collected, Bush had already said it was.

[Recursion]

14. And Congress (including then-Senator Obama) rushed into session to make it legal

Not exactly a shining moment of Democracy in action, but it also highlights the difference between a whistleblower like Drake and a leaker like Snowden.

[Thinkingabout]

15. When did they make it legal?

[Recursion]

17. The 2007 Protect America Act and the 2008 FISA amendments

I also think they shoved some stuff into the 2006 Military Commissions Act, but I may be misremembering.

[Thinkingabout]

18. My point was Snowden did not "reveal" anything new still stands, if this was passed in 2008, it was

Already known and the Johnny come lately bunch thinks Snowden did a good service. It is like scoring a touchdown 15 minutes after the final game whistle.

[Recursion]

19. Right, Snowden revealed stuff 7 years after we already knew about it

And 5-6 years after Congress had changed the law to authorize the Executive branch to do it.

[PSPS]

2. The "anti" crowd consists of two groups

One group is the surveillance buffs/bed-wetters. They like the idea of having everything monitored, probably because they think it "makes them safe."

The other group is the swooners. Anyone who reveals malfeasance by the government while Obama is in office must be vilified. These are the personality cultists.

[elias49]

3. Maybe a third group: Trolls. nt

[el_bryanto]

4. Yes I've noticed that most of the people who disagree with my position are jerks too

I don't know why that is - but once I take a position - everybody on the other side of the fence has some major character defect.

Bryant

[FSogol]

5. LOL. n/t

[hootinholler]

8. Bed-wetters?

A bit harsh isn't it? Is bed wetting a character defect of some sort?

[uhnope]

24. That cuts both ways

Even my answer in #9 didn't label the Snowden supporters so harshly. How about--conspiracy theorists (the NSA is under my bed!) and swooners/personality cultists for Snowden/GG?

Nice, right?

[uhnope]

9. to summarize from my POV

Like any good American, I was concerned about Snowden's and Greenwald's supposed revelations when they started, before I found out how bogus they were.

Snowden says he is motivated by a fight for freedom and truth. No one is the villain in their own story. The problem is:
-he ran off to two of the most un-free places on the planet, China and Russia;
-his claims turned out to be lies in many cases. I mean, come on--he started off with the huge claim, never remotely proven, that he could easily read Obama's email if he wanted to.

Greenwald, likewise, has long ago blown any goodwill he had among rational people with dishonest, hyperbolic, and publicity-seeking behavior of his own--writing articles with sensational headlines about NSA misdeeds that promise one thing while delivering another.

Snowden's ultimate motivations are something mystery; some of his behavior is inscrutable. But Greenwald looks to be transparently motivated by ego, money and fame.

The whole Snowwald thing has fed, and fed off, a conspiracy-theorizing and paranoid outlook that believes any claim about Men in Black surveilling your every move. It also feeds, and feeds off, some people's need for heroes and knights in shining armor. Frankly, even if I had ever found Greenwald admirable and his concerns worthy, I would have been mortified by his actions, tactics and behaviour. But many people just put their blinders on and kneel at the altar.

This Snowwald worship overlaps with a certain mindset that thinks the US government--and the whole country, really--must always be the wrong, evil, and nefarious party in every conflict or interaction. These folks actually support the homophobic fascist Putin, or the Ayotollahs of Iran, because they are in opposition to the US. Those folks tend to be fans of Snowden and Greenwald too.

This is a summary. There is some grey area in the middle.

[Thinkingabout]

13. K & R, good post

[Fumesucker]

20. "Greenwald looks to be transparently motivated by ego, money and fame."

That makes him different from the average Beltway politician how?

[Recursion]

10. His motives are opaque to me, but I have several possible ideas

Money is always the first guess in a leak case.

He may have wanted to weaken the NSA (where he was a contractor) as a way to strengthen the CIA (where he had been an agent) -- the two have a notrious and long-running turf war. He may have been doing so on orders, or as a maverick.

He may enjoy notoriety.

He may have wanted to weaken the administration (he voiced the desire to shoot leakers like Manning in the mouth during the W administration, so it may be political).

He may have been blackmailed.

OTOH, as people keep pointing out, this isn't about Snowden but what he leaked, which is to say, the same program that Drake had leaked 7 years earlier.

[WillyT]

16. He Exposed The Truth... Revealing The Corruption Of One Administration, And The Acquiescence of Another

[randys1]

21. I am seeing a whole bunch of "personality" issues, not much about what was revealed

But according to some, what he revealed was not new, not a big deal.



My concern is what would the attitude of certain people be if this revelation had been under a republican president.

Look, we know there are several here at DU and many out there who hate Obama and Hillary and pretend to be Democrats or liberals and so on.

Are they often the same ones cheering on Snowden and GG?

Could be, I dont really know.

What I do know is even the most liberal, honest, open minded and clear thinking liberal journalists are on the record saying that the Obama administration is the toughest of all time on whistle-blowers and the secrecy the Obama admin has authorized is beyond that of what Bush did.

I cant give you the names of these people right this instant, but I have heard them, I believe them, and it bothers me.

Can you imagine a rightwinger with that power and mindset?

[G_j]

22. James Risen comes to mind nt

[randys1]

23. Yeah...And who do we think we are supporting when we support these attacks on whistleblowers?

I am so sick of attacking Obama solely based on his skin color and name, which is 99% of ALL attacks from the right.

But us on the left need to be willing to do critical thinking, Barack aint gonna be there that much longer, and we have to protect ourselves.

It is why I laugh at the "I wont vote for Hillary no matter what" people who then accuse me of towing the party line



Jesus, I am so far left most of the people here would get whiplash trying to keep up with me, but I am not stupid either and I recognize a situation where the lesser of evils is mandatory.

But I also understand that much of what we disliked about W, i.e. surveillance and whistle blowers, Obama is making it worse, that is just a fact.