So my liberal sister sees the new Obama 'Forward' ad, and this is what she writes me:

[Scuba]

Outstanding. How much do you think it would cost to get Fox News to run it?

And how do you get the fearful, ignorant and racists to watch it? Are there any independents left to persuade?

Damn the Republicans and their long-term strategy -- makes me think of JFK's book "While England Slept." We've been doing our liberal thing -- live and let live -- while they've been taking over the weak minds of weak people.

Man, she does get it.

[madokie]

1. Yes I'd say she does

[Bradford]

2. So...

...if I don't like Obama, that makes me fearful, ignorant, and racist?

I guess I don't get it like she does.

[monmouth]

3. Sounds like you don't..n/t

[LiberalLoner]

4. Yup, someone who for sure doesn't.....pass the popcorn, please? :)

I sense a tombstone coming up soon.

[pinboy3niner]

8. We're gonna need a bigger tub

[LiberalLoner]

11. LOL! :)

[Jackpine Radical]

40. Bradford, we hardly knew ya.

7 posts at this writing.

I give him 12 before the pizza arrives.

[pinboy3niner]

42. 7 & done

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=284066&sub=trans

[RevStPatrick]

48. I miss the actual tombstones...

...on the profiles of those who have been tombstoned.
Can we get those back?
PLEASE?!?

[Ecumenist]

57. Would that tombstone be pepperoni by any chance?

I like pepperoni!

[rhett o rick]

60. I think he is making a point. Some liberals dont want to take the time to educate

the gullibles. Just TS 'em and be done with it.

[pinboy3niner]

70. In this case, there was little chance of educating our new friend

One of his early posts (in another thread) stridently called for abolition of the Income Tax. A position on which he doubled down in this thread.

It was clear that our friend is a Paulista, and one who seems to be adamant about his views. There are other boards where he can engage in discussion of the merits and demerits of the Ron Paul platform.

From the get-go, it was obvious that this was not a good fit for him--or for us.

[rhett o rick]

77. Yes you most likely are correct. However, there is a point to be made here.

We are losing this war in part because we are ineffective at getting our message out. The oligarch-overlords have resources at their disposal to spew massive propaganda. Counter this has to be a high priority for us.

[BlueToTheBone]

5. So...

If you don't like President Obama are you sure you're in the right forum? This is for Democrats, not haters of the President.

[jerseyjack]

14. Do I hate the guy? No. I'm not even disappointed.

I didn't expect much from him and that is what we got.

Appointing reactionary Simpson Bowles.
Giving in to Boner on the debt issue.
Afghanistan.
Prosecuting whistleblowers


-- I can go on but you get the idea.

[Mason Dixon]

64. how about

appointing the vice chairman of Chase bank to Chief of Staff

or the head of defense contractor who doesn't pay taxes as an economic advisor

or a lobbyist for Burger King and Slim Jim to Surgeon General


and on and on

[Scuba]

7. No, but if you're fearful, ignorant and racist you almost certainly don't like the President.

[saras]

18. No, you left out white. Fearful, ignorant, racist and nonwhite doesn't add up to disliking Obama

[AlbertCat]

33. nonwhite doesn't add up to disliking Obama

Unless you're Cuban maybe? Or Alan West?


Too many labels for me....


I think Obama's milquetoast. I think he rightly sensed Americans were tire of the bickering and tried to be cooperative with the opposition. But the opposition and their ilk AREN'T tired of bickering and divisiveness. They think it's a strength! And he has yet to deal with that. But maybe with this term, and no expectations a reelection, he'll get a little tougher.

[bemildred]

9. Pretty much. nt

[Whiskeytide]

10. That's not at all what she said...

... Her observation is that liberals have stood by while the Fox has had its way in the hen house, and that we have ignored the methods of the Fox to convince the low information hens that he is really there to protect them from the socialist farmer. You can still not like Obama for a variety of reasons - that's your choice - so long as its because you have put some thought into it rather than disliking him because you've been told to do so. But you cannot deny the validity of her point.

[Scuba]

12. Nicely done. Thanks.

[Bradford]

13. You speak the truth

Now, this is what I'm talking about. Thanks for your intelligent, polite reply, Whiskeytide.

You're about the only one who didn't immediately jump to conclusions about my positions, based on one little forum post. Here's are some of the assumptions being thrown out there:

1) I can't be a Democrat because I don't like Obama
Wrong. Tell me, who made up that rule? Do you suddenly get blacklisted from all Democratic circles just because you don't like Obama?

2) I am indeed fearful, ignorant, and racist because I don't like Obama.
Wrong. A tired assumption, really. Though Scuba does make a funny (and likely true) assertion, that people who are fearful, ignorant, and racist certainly don't like Obama. But that doesn't mean anyone who disapproves of Obama automatically becomes those things.

3) I am defending Fox News.
Wrong. In fact, I should whole-heartedly hope that others don't look at the tactics of Fox News and stoop to the same lows to try and sway public opinion. There are some really sick neocons over there.

I just get upset when people make assumptions based on very little information. That is all.

[JNelson6563]

16. Welcome

I thought you were hit perhaps a bit too hard for that previous post. There's been a real influx of trolls lately, most too neanderthal-ish to be anything but right-wingers (facade an impossibility) but we also get the self-proclaimed lefties who can't abide President Obama and make quiet a career of campaigning against him. Sometimes they get whacked, sometimes they don't (yet).

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with different views, at least those that are actually earnest views and not talking points that are posted a dozen times a day. If you're here as a Dem and you just want to talk politics with like minded people, you will enjoy the place. My favorite part is the wit, some brilliantly funny posters here.

Julie

[pinboy3niner]

23. Notice that Bradford doees not claim to be a Democrat

Bradford's reply in the Stephen King thread supports abolition of the Income Tax--which makes him sound more like a Paulista than a Democrat:

Bradford

23. The only way to achieve "tax equality" is to get rid of the Income Tax so that nobody pays it.

How economic slavery came to the "land of the free" I will never know.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=627103

[JNelson6563]

26. Well then,

I reckon it will be a short stay...and probably somewhat unpleasant.

But I'm no svengali.

Julie

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

29. Nice catch.

[Bradford]

30. It's true

I think the Income Tax is unnecessary. So what? I don't deny this position. We went well over 100 years without it and saw great economic prosperity. We shouldn't have it.

[cyberswede]

31. Where should revenue come from?

How should we pay for various programs for our citizens?

[Jackpine Radical]

41. In the era of which he speaks, tariffs were the major income source

for the Federal Government.

And things were NOT all rosy in that period. That's when the Robber Barons arose & kept the 99%ers of the day in the poorhouse for generations. Child labor, 60 hour work weeks, no regulation of industry, and no income tax.

[DaveJ]

35. Is income tax Obama's fault??

Income tax is not going away.

And the problem I have with people saying "I don't like Obama" is that I hear is all the time from wingnuts. They complain about how they hate Obama with no rational reason for why, so I can only assume why.

Income tax is not a reason to dislike Obama. No President will ever repeal income tax.

[Bradford]

37. Never said

I disliked Obama because of the Income Tax. I simply said it needs to go.

If getting rid of the Income Tax means that we would not be able to pay for government programs... then maybe we have too many government programs?

[DaveJ]

39. Helping people helps society as a whole

Republican policy is to ignore social problems, and expect them to get better all by themselves. Democrats tend to address the problems.

Ignoring social issues will make them worse, in my opinion.

At any rate, good to see you discussing issues, now just start posting them in relevant threads!

[DocMac]

51. Did you dislike Bush because of income tax too? nt

Too many government programs? Well, how bout we cut the military out? We don't really need it. We have plenty of guns in this country. Oh, and we have enough nukes to defend ourselves. Oh, and the police are getting good at warfare too.

You're safe man. Let's compromise and cut the defence budget by 7/8. Are you with me?

[HughBeaumont]

65. Silly. Read this book.

Idyllic descriptions of how great life was without infrastructure, labor rights, safety standards, workers rights or a social safety net don't even begin to square with how history really was. Industrialists and their polluted cities and unsafe sweatshops literally ground workers to early graves while rural life drove them insane from drudgery and loneliness.

[pinboy3niner]

68. Ah, yes. The RMoney/Ryan budget plan.

[DocMac]

32. I replied to that post.

Waiting for an answer. Wonder what Bradford thinks of Ron Paul?

[pinboy3niner]

34. :)

That's the $64,000 question.

[DocMac]

43. Indeed.

I'm really looking forward to the response.

[pinboy3niner]

45. Well I wouldn't advise holding your breath :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=284066&sub=trans

[BlancheSplanchnik]

38. Unsolicited Advice re: Jumping to conclusions based on one little forum post:

Personally, I think it's manipulative to post one little cryptic post, and then act disgruntled when people react accordingly.

If you want to be taken seriously, acknowledge the fact that you're new here and be forthcoming. Don't do stealth posts.

[xtraxritical]

44. Just who are you going to vote for in November?

I mean President and Congress and State.

[uponit7771]

15. +1

[JayhawkSD]

25. Don't believe in free speech much?

One of my favorite quotes. "You are a cad and a poltroon, sir. I despise everything that you say, and I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

We must as jealously guard the untethered speech of those who say that which we despise as those whose words are music to our ears, else speech is not free and all words will be as empty as sounding brass.

[Jackpine Radical]

46. Right. The GOVERNMENT has no business suppressing free speech.

But Rush sure as hell suppresses the free speech of callers he disagrees with.

Doesn't he have an obligation to let them speak their piece?

The answer is No, he doesn't. It's his territory & he can run it by whatever rules he wants.

The same thing with, say the National Review or the World Socialist Website. They get to control their own content and have no obligation to publish anything they don't want to publish.

Same thing here.

Please do not litter the floor with stems & seeds as you drag your straw man off the stage.

[DocMac]

47. He's free to say what he wants.

Do you think DU is obligated to allow people to post anything because of free speech?

[Whiskeytide]

56. I'm quite a fan of free speech...

... but I'm not sure what you mean by yours in your response. ??? The topic is - I thought - people who take a position because their favorite news program encouraged them to do so, not necessarily because they gave it much thought themselves or bothered to fairly consider the other side of the issue. That's speech, but I think you could make an argument on several levels that its not really free.

[hfojvt]

50. it isn't?

It sure seems like she was saying that

a) those who don't support Obama, or are not progressive, are ignorant, racist, fearful, etc.

and

b) have weak minds and are weak people


sorta like the Obamabots who have drunk the koolaid? (a charge I saw often during the primaries)


One thing Fox and the RWNM will tell Joe Average Voter is that "liberal elites think they are better than you".

Now you lead off with how ignorant, racist and fearful those weak minds are, and you prove Fox's point. The hens are not so low information that they cannot figure out when they've been insulted.

[Whiskeytide]

55. I wasn't suggesting that ...

... the OP's sister's e-mail be the theme of a campaign message. Would I expect the average person to be insulted or offended if told that they were merely Fox-bot pawns being used by shady interests pretending to look out for them? Sure. And would such a message play directly into the hands of the Fox meme? Absolutely. But that doesn't make it an invalid observation.

I think ANYONE paying attention to politics for the past 20 years (or longer) has to realize that a not so subtle strategy by the right wing has been to take advantage of those who are not paying attention and encourage them to vote against their interests. The OP's sister was taking a shot at those people. I might not refer to them collectively as "ignorant, racist, fearful people with weak minds" (maybe I would say "uninformed, non-diverse, worried and slow to catch on&quot , but people fitting that description exists. We all know some of them. To pretend they're not there out of some fear of offending them or some sense of political correctness is disingenuous.

[hfojvt]

61. I know that serial killers exist too

but to pretend that the whole Republican party is composed of them is not only politically unwise, it is not accurate.

She was not taking a shot at a specific group of people, but basically suggesting that all 60 million McCain voters are racist, ignorant fearful and weak minded.

Well, in 2010, ten thousand of those McCain voters also voted for the Democrat in my Congressional district. It wasn't enough for us to win. The point is, we need more, and insulting them does not help, nor is it true. They are no more brainwashed by Fox news than I am by Michael Moore or MSNBC.

[Whiskeytide]

67. hold on - let's look carefully at what she said...

Point 1 -
"And how do you get the fearful, ignorant and racists to watch it?"
I don't know how, but her why might be to allay their fears, educate them, or perhaps open their minds? There are fearful, ignorant and racist people out there who oppose Obama for those very reasons. Shouldn't we try to reach them? That seems to be all she's suggesting.


Point 2 -
"Are there any independents left to persuade?"
Again - hoping to reach people who haven't figured it out yet. Nice goal, I think.


Point 3 -
"Damn the Republicans and their long-term strategy -- makes me think of JFK's book "While England Slept." We've been doing our liberal thing -- live and let live -- while they've been taking over the weak minds of weak people."
A comment on how frustrating it is that the sophisticated and complicated right wing special interests philosophies of power, economics and political theory are held by people who cannot possibly understand, benefit from or appreciate them. Clearly this does not describe ALL republicans (and she never said it did) - but enough that they stand out. And I and most liberals believe this disconnect has resulted, at least in part, from a long term disinformation campaign waged by the RW. They have influenced a lot of people who are either incapable of realizing they're being used, or are too stubborn to entertain an alternative.

That's all she said. Maybe you saw something else because you wanted to pick a fight? Maybe you were expecting it? I don't know.

Your stated goal of not offending the RW voters is something I can respect. But don't we have to point out the serial killers?

[hfojvt]

72. right, if you sift it and twist it enough, then it doesn't mean what it clearly means

"How do you get the ignorant, fearful and racist to watch it?"

Like that statement does not fall into a well established frame. The Jets-Sharks tribal frame. The ignorant fearful and racist are not found within both gangs, and they are not really a subset of the Sharks. Unless 99.44% can be considered a subset.

You cannot honestly speak frame-speak and then try to deny you mean something different from the frame. Heck, if the opposition tried it, we would call it a dog-whistle. The group is never specifically identified one way or another, because it doesn't have to be. Everybody knows "the ignorant, fearful, and racist" = all of the Sharks.

"Are there any Independents left to persuade?" A rhetorical question, meaning "I do not think there are any independents left to persuade.

"they've been taking over the weak minds of weak people"

Whether that means all Republicans or not, is moot. If one starts with the assumption "many people who disagree with me have weak minds" it becomes very easy to conclude "disagreeing with me is a sign of a weak mind".

Perhaps, ultimately they have influenced a lot of people because they did not try to sell their message starting with "hello, sir or ma'am, you are an idiot and I'd like you to buy my product."

I saw what I saw because it is one of our favorite messages, that the other side is a bunch of ignorant, fearful, racists with weak minds.

[Whiskeytide]

75. Your point is well taken...

...in the larger context. But in the case of this single message, I'm simply not ready to assign a dog whistle tag to a comment from a woman I don't know. All she has done is state a position that most of us believe is sometimes - though obviously not universally - true. Only the most indoctrinated among us truly believe that ALL of the sharks are weak-minded, ignorant, fearful and racist. And, personally, I do believe that many jets are narrow-minded, intolerant absolutists themselves.

But I live in Alabama - the belly of the RW beast. I count quite a few staunch conservative republicans as good friends (it would get pretty lonely if I didn't). Most of them are conservative for reasons I fully understand, but simply disagree with. But some, and its a larger percentage than I'd like, oppose democrats and Obama on fundamentally twisted grounds. I have had conversations with people I know to be otherwise decent people (they work hard, love their kids, care for their aging parents, etc...), but they hate Obama because they believe he's a Muslim socialist determined to destroy the American way of life, turn us into Europe, take away our guns and destroy our military. They get these views from somewhere. You don't have to listen to RW radio or watch Fox long to understand where.

The stereo-type of the ignorant, fearful and racist conservative who has been conditioned to oppose liberalism no matter what is grounded in reality. Just read some of the letters to the editor in my local newspaper and you'll appreciate that.

[louis-t]

20. Noooo, if you don't like Obama because of the lies republicants tell...

that makes you fearful, ignorant, etc.

[kestrel91316]

21. In your case that probably does. Enjoy your stay.

[CanonRay]

54. Here's your site

www.freerepublic.com

Enjoy

[Skittles]

63. not necessarily, if you're a progressive

if you are a teabagging repuke, however, chances are - yes, that is right

[vaberella]

73. You're being obtuse on purpose or you definitely don't get it. n/t

[dionysus]

76. sleep well, sweet, sweet prince....

[Lawlbringer]

6. The problem with our party

is that the Republicans are all about "ME" and "MY AGENDA" while we Dems are compassionate and understanding (for the most part) in our doctrines. This leads to more willingness to compromise, while the Repubs are more of the dig-our-heels-in-and-push. They poison the weak-minded with propaganda ranging in intensity from Fox News to super-crazy like prisonplanet or Infowars.

Then when they get their way and we, as a country, fall on our faces, we finally get to push our sensible agendas through. Then the Repubs come up with their new agenda to completely undo the progress we've made, pushing the propaganda spin machine into high gear, trying to nurture (yes, this is really the only nurturing that the repubs seem to do lol) the seedlings in the weak minded.

Essentially, it's a political ouroboros.

[wendylaroux]

17. The corporate owned media

has done an awesome job of Obama bashing,making him look just like another nasty republican.[There for awhile I was being sucked into it too,and believe me,it can happen to anyone.] Never emphasizing the GOP constant blocking of EVERYTHING the president tried to do. He had to lean to their side to get ANYTHING done. Now I am not saying i agreed with each and every step he has taken,but if you really believe voting republican or not voting at all is what is best for this country,please think again. The repubs have shown their true colors,over and over again, and they are horrible for the majority of America. Only the ultra rich will will be helped under them.

[Taylor Smite]

19. Should be

"Why England Slept"


"While England Slept" was penned by The Right Honourable Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill

[Scuba]

22. Oh good, I get to correct my big sister!!!

[JNelson6563]

27. Savor it.

She strikes me as the sort of lady who doesn't give you many opportunities like this.

Sounds like you have a great sister.

Julie

[Scuba]

28. She's awesome...

<a href="http://imgur.com/fjw5n"><img src="" title="Hosted by imgur.com" alt="" /></a>

[Jackpine Radical]

49. OMG, a Wisconsin Burqa!

She looks very…

…uh…

warm.

[Scuba]

52. Hey, last time I posted that pic you called it "Cheesehead bank robber chic" or some such nonesense.

make up your mind!

[Jackpine Radical]

59. A foolish consistency

is the hobgoblin of little minds.--R.W. Emerson

[Suji to Seoul]

24. weak minds of weak people. it's all about the slogan and the bumper sticker

if it can't be soundbyte, it is lost.

We suck at that.

[Xyzse]

36. That is an interesting question...

" How much do you think it would cost to get Fox News to run it?"

Any one have the numbers? If there is anything that I might donate for, I'd do that, just for the pleasure of reading on the news that a few heads exploded right after.

[freshwest]

53. You sister has got it, alright. K & R. Needs to be said!

[Rhiannon12866]

58. Trade your sister for my brother...

I sent him that "Which Candidate Is For You?" test and Rick Santorum came up first for him, was dead last on my list... I was hoping to prove to him that he really shouldn't be voting Republican...

[Tx4obama]

62. The 'Forward' video

[applegrove]

66. That was excellent!

[calimary]

69. She's quite correct. We have to get a LOT more militant about it. And relentlessly, too.

And it's really put us, and our country, our whole society, at risk. We've been WAAAAAY too lax on fiercely protecting the ground we've gained, at the same time that we have adversaries who are out for blood, around the clock, and NEVER rest or relax or savor what they've won. They're ALWAYS on a rampage. Which means we also ALWAYS have to be on guard. We can't just roll over and go back to sleep once some law has been passed or some new civil right has been secured or beneficial new program has been enacted. We have to back all of those up with determination and force, and be The Firewall From Hell to the bastards who would send us careening back in time to some imaginary utopian Beaver Cleaver America that never really existed (except for a very lucky and wealthy few).

We have to be combatants - on offense, not reacting or playing defense. Proactive like we've never been proactive before.

Scuba, I think your liberal sister just summed it up REALLY succinctly. Just NAILED it in a way I've not seen put to words so basically.

"Damn the Republicans and their long-term strategy -- makes me think of JFK's book 'While England Slept.' We've been doing our liberal thing -- live and let live -- while they've been taking over the weak minds of weak people."

We've been doing our liberal thing -- live and let live... I think that sums it ALL up.

Funny thing since you mention "live and let live." Anybody here old enough to remember the whole Anita Bryant mini-travesty? The one-time Miss America second-runner-up (she was Miss Oklahoma), became a pop singer and variety show staple during the '50s and '60s, a conservative Christian who made her religion part of her public persona, and later, a Florida orange juice spokesperson, who shot herself in the foot with the public in the late '70s when she careened off into this rabid nationwide anti-gay crusade. She was the bane of civil rights and gay rights advocates everywhere, and her strident anti-gay activism eventually killed her career. Her first marriage ended in divorce, and it was rumored that one of her sons was gay, although I can't find anything concrete to back that up. If anything, her oldest son was actually a LOT more tolerant and liberal than she was on the subject of gay rights. Even he once commented that he thought the rough times she went through after she stuck her neck out had forced her to rethink her extremism - by saying she learned to "live and let live."

In a 1980 Ladies Home Journal interview, following her divorce and in the aftermath of her anti-gay activism, Bryant commented on her anti-gay views and said, "I'm more inclined to say live and let live, just don't flaunt it or try to legalize it."[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Bryant

Kind of weird - you look at her photos in this Wikipedia write-up, and if you put eye-glasses on her, you'd have sarah palin.

[AndyTiedye]

71. The Only Part She Doesn't Get

How much do you think it would cost to get Fox News to run it?

How much money would it cost to buy the network from the Murdochs? That is what it would take.

[upi402]

74. Out. of. the. park.

:cheer: