General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAs a member of what has become known as the "far left" those who attack me here don't anger me
No, attacks on the "far left" on DU make me depressed and discouraged, less likely to be engaged rather than more, less likely to care what's happening rather than more. I've already left DU for months, it just wasn't worth the deepening sense of depression I was feeling. I went over to Discussionist and argued with right wingers who also screeched "far left" at me but at least there I wasn't supposed to be on the same team so I didn't find it so much depressing as amusing. But I grew weary at Discussionist of continually having "shape of the Earth? Opinions differ." type of arguments so I eventually ended up back here at DU.
I spent over a decade listening to right wingers screeching about the "far left" on my radio while I was commuting until I finally realized that all they were trying to do was piss me off at which point I quit listening to them.
"Far left" is a conservative Republican meme that has been pumped into the national consciousness through quite literally thousands of radio stations and a full time 24/7/365 cable propaganda outlet. It's a phrase from Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich designed specifically to drive a wedge into the non-conservative Republican bloc in America.
Once again, I don't get angry when I hear "far left" on DU, I get more cynical and more depressed and more likely simply to wash my hands of politics altogether and pursue other interests of which I have several that make me actually feel positive rather than negative emotions.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)And what I have to say to people that call me a leftist is "Damn right. What are you going to do about it?"
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)Paka
(2,760 posts)Far left is a a description I'm proud to claim.
zomgitsjesus
(40 posts)Those that give you a hard time are envious. Stay strong and keep left.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Why is there no viable Socialist option? Because far too many people are unwilling to declare as such, and instead stay with their 'default'.
(Note that I am carefully wording this comment such that it is merely an observation, and not 'advocacy'. Sorry, centrists.)
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)or, in this case, the centrist wing of one. (We have no left wing; nobody is actually proposing the nationalization of key industries). Bernie's no socialist in the classic sense, just a middle-of-the-road liberal.He's an Independent out of sheer cussedness and a Roosevelt Democrat by ideology. And remember that in his time, Roosevelt was pretty much a centrist Dem, who ended up saving capitalism from itself.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I tell anyone who asks me what my politics are that I am a democratic socialist and have been for most of my adult life.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)And my mom's! Before she passed away at the age of 95, she was STILL a poll-watcher and "Blue Dog Democrat".......
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)The Clintons and other Blue Dog Dems are directly responsible for all the right wing crazy kooks we have now. Why? Because they pushed the center further to the right and Republicans feel the need to differentiate and distance themselves from us for purely CULTURAL reasons such as religion, sexual identity and hippiedom. To do this they must extend themselves even further to the right in what's now considered off the charts whacko territory. If we move the center to the left the. It's possible they pull back and feel comfortable moving back towards the center. Simple logic.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Being a leftist is damn right (pun intended)and it always has been.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)...it means you're doing something right."
-- Old saying
If caring about common human decency, animals, and the planet over corporate profits makes anyone want to call me a left wing moon bat, they should feel free.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The amount of hate towards the left on DU only illustrates the problem.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Alan Colmes is a giant among liberals next to that person.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Response to msanthrope (Reply #141)
Post removed
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Quite simply I'm running out of fucks to give. Government at all levels has become its own self-perpetuating organism--"The Blob"--comes to mind. Irrespective of my level of participation--indeed even our collective participation--the outcome remains unaffected.
It is like watching a football game; yeah it's fun and sometimes a fight breaks out which is cool, but the fact is no matter how much i bet, how much I yell, scream and jump up and down, I cannot affect the score.
Our candidates are selected for us; someone who actually represents me would be destroyed early in a campaign. Until "do you believe in evolution?" and similarly ludicrous questions are met with peals of laughter, the system will remain broken. And of course if we do vote incorrectly, the court will fix it.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)And yes, I have zero fucks to give now.
Things will right (left) itself eventually - and sometimes that can get messy.
840high
(17,196 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)There are thousands of issues out there, each issue with hundreds of potential solutions (left, centrist, right).
On any one of those issues and solutions, I may be Far Left, Neutral, and even rightist on a couple. I think the same goes for any intelligent person who thinks for themselves. Granted some people don't think for themselves, they let someone like Rush Limbaugh or, even, DU decide how they should think.
Anyone who is ALWAYS Far Left or ALWAYS Far Right, I would suspect isn't really thinking for themselves.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Or did that detail escape you?
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Just agreeing with you that "Far Left" is a make believe meme.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Just this morning I had someone ask me why I had lefty in my handle because I didn't agree with a minority of Democrats on an issue the poster felt strongly about. Just asking someone to prove their "loyalty" should be a banning offense as far as I'm concerned. Nobody here has that right.
mountain grammy
(26,642 posts)These labels are phony and polarizing, which is why conservatives have had such success with them. Reagan started a new Civil War by relentlessly bashing "liberals" and it worked. I don't think America will ever recover.
Most people don't even understand what far left means but they're willing to go along with the generalization and vilification.
cynzke
(1,254 posts)Reagan started this "label" movement to use as ammo. It was successful. So successful, it has poisoned the country to the point government can't function and voters are turned off. We are egged on, manipulated to label and hate our opponents if they hold a different opinion. Not only are they wrong, they are EVIL. As long as we are in a tizzy fighting, perpetuating this fiasco, they have us where they want us. We are divided and we fall. Meanwhile, the people pulling our strings are laughing all the way to the bank. That would be the corporations and wealthy in this country. They are on the second phase of this successful campaign. Now they are focusing on the poor. Anyone who needs financial assistance. These people are being labeled as some kind of pariah that should be hated and despised. Assistance is labeled as "entitlements". If they can persuade us to to ACCEPT adopting a caste system where the poor become the dirty, unclean, scum of society, the easier it is cutoff financial assistance. They can't do that until we have been brainwashed enough to believe it.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
iandhr
(6,852 posts)I constantly see threads calling the President a sellout for not getting a single payer or a public option health care law. Millions of people were helped by the ACA including me.
Do I support a public option yes. Am I going to set my hair on fire because it didn't happen no because I think getting something is better then getting nothing. It's what I call being a progressive pragmatist.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)iandhr
(6,852 posts)And neither does anyone else wouldn't have had healthcare otherwise.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Mind reading is a rare skill.
quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I wouldnt have had health care without the ACA. Had been years without.
I still care who betrayed us and sold us out.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Think about it, what would be the cheapest and most efficient way to run our healthcare? That would be the conservative ideal. Now what would be the fairest and most democratic way to run our healthcare system? Each look for the solution from a different direction but end up with the same solution, single payer.
Now what would be the most capitalistic way to run our healthcare system? Our healthcare system today has nothing to do with right or left because the correct solution is the same for both.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)So while single-payer costs less, requires less taxes, and gives better results, it is the government doing it.
And government can not do anything.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Conservative when referring to politics can mean almost anything these days but when I learned ( a lot of years ago) the definitions of politics what you are referring to used to be called a reactionary. Reactionary is a word I would like to see come back into use as it seems to be a very good description of the Republican party these days.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)It was Otto von Bismarck, probably the most conservative Reichskanzler Germany ever had. He started it in the late 19th century, along with a government-paid old-age-pension scheme, for two reasons: They were two major planks of the Socialists and he wanted to steal their thunder; and he thought they were good for Germany.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Now if we could persuade our own conservatives to see the light.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Have you considered taking a course in political economy?
Or, barring that, perhaps you should just head a little bit north to that hotbed of left-wing radicals, Canada.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)It's something I would favor. I consider the purists who still complain about the alleged sellout that the ACA wasn't single payer to be annoying pursuits.
Some of these people don't care that 19,000,000 have care now that they wouldn't have had otherwise.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I just don't get it. The Public Option was the compromise. Not only on this issue, but I see us conceding our position and the compromise only to go with the "market-based" solution. If this was enacted by Mittens, no one would say a thing on the Republican side of the aisle, but since a black man beat them to it, that's the only reason they're fuming.
Again, the Public Option was the compromise, and I would have been happy with that - but they threw in the towel while still in the dressing room!
I'm not taking my ball and going home because we didn't get the single-payer solution, I'm pissed because we didn't even try to put that as our starting position - in fact, we just wanted to be at the table. Then our next negotiating position was dismissed as well, and we ended up getting the conservative option.
I'm sick of it.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)I got healthcare because of the law. I had orthopedic issues that required five surgeries after I graduated college. I was able to stay on my parents plan because of the ACA.
So on behalf of the 19,000,000 million Americans who are getting care they would not have had otherwise because of the law **** you. We don't care that you are sick of it.
Response to iandhr (Reply #57)
Post removed
iandhr
(6,852 posts)I want everyone to have the care they need I would support a single-payer system I know we already have a single-payer system called Medicare my point is 19 million more people having care is a better number than zero.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Had you read my post, you'd know that I'd be happy with at least being included at the table for discussion - which of course, didn't happen.
But hey, you got yours!
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I was juror #2.
You are sick of it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6287191
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
He states "**** you" in his post, and when I responded in kind, mine gets hidden? This is the first post I've ever alerted on, but is it only fair that if mine is considered offensive, so should his?
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:05 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Nobody should be saying "**** you" here to other members, and, yes, the poster is correct about fairness.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed. Fair is Fair.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)ALL have it were it not for rightwingers fighting every step of the way.
If ACA had been allowed to go forward as designed, practically everybody would be covered, the only ones who would not would have chosen not to.
Now some of them could be in that zone where even with subsidy it is hard to pay a small premium, granted.
It is not perfect, but it is so much better than before.
No preexisting condition exclusion, etc.
Some people on the left are like ALL on the right, NOTHING Obama does is good enough.
To quote Joe Biden, "This is a big fucking deal"
Shame on your so called progressives or liberals who dont think so
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)if you are interested in who did what and why.
Obama and team did NOT set it up to fail.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)why not at least link me to evidence for your version?
randys1
(16,286 posts)so YOU now need to prove that...
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... so, I won't bother with an answer to your straw men.
randys1
(16,286 posts)quakerboy
(13,920 posts)I also obtained health care for the first time in years via the ACA.
I do care that he is sick of being sold out, fed lesser options when we could have had better.
Just because the ACA is better than what came before it does not mean its the best we could have done, had our elected officials chosen to represent the American people rather than select special interest groups.
And one small step forward definitely did not undo all the other damage done to our country over the past 30 years. Or even over the past 10 years. I doubt even over the past 5 years.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Anymore, it serves no purpose except to allow oversimplified bloviating.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)The "left -><- "right" paradigm does need to be retired. it's been serving as a useful tool for the TPB and their dog and pony shows every election cycle but completely useLESS for the 99%.
it's damned time to retire it.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)The left and the right, as far as the 99% are concerned, all have in common the same problems. So why aren't we united in solving those problems? We are divided in how to formulate a solution. Everybody wants less abortions, fairer taxes, better health care, etc. Where we differ, or are often purposely divided, is in the best solution.
We can't be allowed to know how powerful we could be if we united. We could easily control this Country if we could just unite to solve our common problems.
riqster
(13,986 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)fairer taxes or better health care, etc.
Teaparty has a vision of this country that is frightening, it is why white supremacist groups are allowed in and so comfortable with conservatives...
http://www.pfaw.org/press-releases/2015/02/civil-rights-groups-gop-presidential-candidates-distance-yourself-cpac-s-whit
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)Many may also be libertarians. The tea party are in reality Republicans, we should always call them Republicans. Those that don't like what the tea party candidates stand for but don't follow politics very well may well vote for them because they are listed as Republicans on the ballots.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,347 posts)Representatives in assemblies that continue over many electoral cycles are bound to end up forming parties - to sort themselves into groups that they can, usually, rely on to support their agreed agenda inside each party. When you can win a lot of seats by looking like "just more than a majority of public opinion", you'll end up with 2 parties, positioned along some axis, dominating the voting, each making themselves a big enough tent that they can, at times, win over half the seats.
While the commonly-taken meaning of 'left' and 'right' may change over time, it's very likely it will remain the name, whether or not anyone thinks it has a 'purpose'.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... and if my memory serves me correctly, George Washington was against political "Parties" too. Our political system has driven a wedge between family members, friends, communities and states alike.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Should have listened to them.
LiberalArkie
(15,727 posts)I am Jeff
Russ: He's right though..
As I'm so far left I might fall off the edge..
But Jeff's out there in the air hovering like some zen'd out ultra liberal..
I can only aspire to that level of clarity... But I have kids, so nothing is ever going to clear to me.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)They can be a lot more fun.
LiberalArkie
(15,727 posts)We are happy when people accept that we are "Far Left"
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)That doesn't mean I have to sign up for a checklist and agree with every single stance taken by someone who has taken it upon him/herself to decide and judge who is a liberal or not.
LiberalArkie
(15,727 posts)I see nothing wrong with socialized electricity, water, roads, healthcare, etc. Might even through in internet, telephone and some others. Owned by the government but not controlled. Non profit. Why not controlled? Well we see what happens is tax payers do not want a new tax to improve xyz. It ends up being in horrible shape. But if the income stays in the electicity dept, or water dept, or telephone dept, then improvements get made. It used to be that corporations would do improvements but now days they have to only improve executive compensation not their service.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)If corporations try and concentrate on the future at the expense of their quarterly earnings report, their stock plummets, their stockholders come with pickforks and torches. I think the day that Walmart announced an increase in wages, their stock went down over 3%. The old adage "what's good for main street is terrible for Wall Street" is repulsively true.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)than Republicans. What would you suggest?
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)And then ascribe them to other people in order to discredit them. What would you suggest? I have a few ideas if you're drawing a blank.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)USArmyParatrooper
(1,827 posts)delusional, then sure.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)with a chainsaw of logic as very few could. "The crux of the biscuit" indeed
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Moderately consevwtive fiscally. Radically leftist libertarian in all other ways. And yes there are left libertarians. See Noam Chomsky.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 28, 2015, 05:40 AM - Edit history (1)
ok with pot smoking, gay marriage, and the standard menu of individualist 'rights', including the right to starve.
Chomsky isn't a left libertarian. he calls himself an anarchist (anarcho-syndicalist), and has as long as I've been aware of him.
Chomsky: Well whats called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon... permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power: so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes. The assumption is that by some kind of magic, concentrated private power will lead to a more free and just society...that kind of libertarianism, in my view, in the current world, is just a call for some of the worst kinds of tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny.
Anarchism is quite different from that. It calls for an elimination to tyranny, all kinds of tyranny. Including the kind of tyranny thats internal to private power concentrations...
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Zappa spoke the truth in those statements
H2O Man
(73,581 posts)I have identified myself as "far left" for decades. I was "radical left" in my youth.
I get things done.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think we have a big tent here and there is a spectrum of positions on any given issue.
What discourages me is when people take the position that they are more progressive than every one else and that, because of that, they are better.
So perhaps "far left" is term you reject, but what would you call it?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)I don't see how that answers the question.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)there is no real democracy.
It's very simple. Buy the mainstream media, control your mainstream media, use the mainstream media to create culture and public opinion, and use it for your purposes.
Buy the government, control the government, and use it to control the populace for your purposes.
It's not rocket science.
The folks referred to by conservatives as "far left" are generally democrats who advocate for possible effective avenues of changing our system of government from oligarchy to some genuine form of democracy.
Many of these conservatives even consider leaders like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren to be "far left", when, in fact, they are simply plain old democrats.
No offense meant, cbayer, but if you are, for some reason, not aware of this obvious reality, we cannot conduct a conversation as peers. The frustration expressed by Fumesucker in the OP is the same frustration expressed by most democrats in general, certainly the majority of democrats on DU. If such a large number of "Big D" Democrats are so unaware of global political realities that they refer to folks like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and DUers like Fumesucker, and the other democrats among us who see that the system is obviously rigged against us, there is no real hope for instituting democracy in the US, except through focused and effective direct action from outside the system.
The oligarchs will not allow democracy to manifest while they control the information and the political process; it's simply against their personal, and class, material interests.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)can see where you are coming from. I think it struggles and the rule of money has become a serious detriment to maintaining the idea.
But when there are countries that are theocracies or plutocracies or otherwise don't have any resemblance to a democracy at all, I think you have nomenclature issues when you state that the US if no longer a democracy.
I think we are all on the same team here. Those who push further left are important and valuable, but I also think there is value and importance in those who maintain a moderate position or even push back on some issues.
I was just discussing the Overton Window with FS, and I think it's a really interesting conceptual model. It explains both why you need people outside the window pushing in your desired direction and why it's important to have the bulk of your people somewhere inside the window, imo.
Only through working together will we get the change we are looking for. Your role is important but it is not the only important role.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)The polarization of wealth, and the degree of inequality and injustice experienced by the middle/working class, are accelerating exponentially at unprecedented rates.
I vote for Democrats because they are always better than republicans. Would I vote for a democrat instead of a Democratic Corporatist, if the democrat had a real chance of winning an election? Absolutely.
Yes, we are on the same team in that we will vote for Democrats in that they are almost always the lesser of two evils. I am a mixed race LGBT female. Not electing Democrats has many more clear and present life threatening consequences for me than electing them does.
The trap laid by the oligarchs is simple, but clever and effective: Either vote for the MSM supported corporatist candidate who will support some human rights, and probably institute some environmental protections, or vote for the MSM supported corporatist candidate who will crush human rights and destroy the environment with reckless abandon.
The controlled dissemination of information, and the institutionalized beliefs that conservative media has instilled into the general American consciousness, and the campaign finance system ensures that few democratic candidates (and only on a local or regional level) except for those chosen by the oligarchs can be elected in our two party system.
Under these circumstances, we clearly do not live in a Democracy, when democracy is considered in its basic definition:
Power in the US is not vested in the people, and we do not rule directly or through freely elected representatives.
I don't have nomenclature issues. Governments in other nations that are horribly oppressive and non-democratic do not prove that the US system is democratic, only that it is less oppressive and less horrible for most people. Unfortunately, the US is getting farther and farther from being a democracy with each passing day, and the obvious result of this process will be a feudal system, where the majority of the populace are serfs or indentured servants in the service of wealthy private interests.
Perhaps, in reality, we are already there.
It has been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. This definition is somewhat appropriate for our political process: Some keep engaging in the same political process, and expect things to get better. Meanwhile, in the overall scope of things, things are definitely getting worse. Every day, wealthy private interests gain more control over our lives, and our and choices.
The problem with the Overton Window theory with regard to our situation in the US is that not enough people are allowed inside the window to make the necessary changes necessary for those outside the window, because those inside the window are employed by the multi-national wealthy corporation that owns the building.
I'm all for working together. A well planned and prepared focused, coordinated mass general strike with enough support might make the oligarchs consider relinquishing control of the government to those to whom it rightfully belongs.
The people.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I believe that people like you are necessary. I don't disagree with you about what the problems are or what needs to be fixed.
What I object to is the vilification of those who essentially share positions but occupy different places on the spectrum.
Perhaps I misunderstood the Overton Window, but i think that it's not about who is inside and who is outside. It is about the range of ideas that are considered acceptable by the majority of the people. Current policy resides in the center and reaches out in both directions.
While I think a well coordinated massive national strike would probably be effective in some ways, I am not at all optimistic that it will happen. When you begin to advocate for things in the radical and unthinkable parts of the box, recruitment becomes more difficult.
So, as much as some find it reprehensible, I think there is a place for moderate pragmatism. While people like yourself advocate for positions towards the extremes, those who make up the vast majority have to be convinced.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)but the fact remains that it is probably a necessary action for the American people to engage in, if they are ever going to have a chance at ending the rule of oligarchs in the US and institute democratic self rule.
On the other hand, there is zero chance that moderate self identified pragmatists will ever make any attempt whatsoever to end the rule of oligarchs in the US.
The word "pragmatic' means dealing with things sensibly and realistically, in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.
Revolutions carried out for the establishment of greater justice, equality, liberty, and freedom from control by wealthy private interests, such as the American, Irish, Russian, and French revolutions, etc, were instigated and directed by people whom the status quo labeled as idealistic radical extremists.
In the long run, history has proven these so called "idealistic radical extremists", these revolutionaries, to be the real pragmatists.
History will show that those who are considered by the status quo today to be "idealistic radical far left extremists" are the real pragmatists of this present day.
"People must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from people who are aggressive for what is wrong."
Senator Robert M. LaFollette, Sr.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and that actually happening is slim, then I think other things ought to be put on the table.
There is not going to be a revolution in this country. We live like royalty compared to so many people in this world. It may not be perfect but advocated revolutionary change is going to move the needle nowhere at all.
OTOH, there is nothing wrong with sensible and realistic proposals that are based on practical considerations. It may not lead to the radical change that you wish for, but that doesn't mean there won't be change.
Again, I think you position is valuable and keeps the pressure on, but rejecting the approach of others is what I object to.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)that people in the US are generally very fortunate in the material sense.
My problem with political moderates in general is that they are not really all that pragmatic. If they make gains, they make small ones, and everything else continues to move down the sewer to the right, and decline, until they are voted from office, leading to an extremist conservative republican government that destroys the country in every way as fast as they possibly can, often with the help of moderate neo-liberal Democratic appeasers. (See Iraq War vote).
When the populace is tired of the stupidity and horror of the republican government, (see Bush), the public is propagandized into voting for the only real alternative to the republicans ~ moderate Democrats. The failure of moderates to effect necessary significant progressive change (see Universal Public Healthcare, corporate regulation, Citizen's United, gerrymandering, labor union expansion, etc) leads to voter apathy. Consequently, moderate Democrats continue to lose elections until the republicans retake control of the government again, wreaking destruction on everything and everyone on the planet until the propagandized populace wakes up enough once again to figure out that the republicans are wacko.
All the while, the republican party is gaining, and the Democratic party is losing. It is one step forward, a thousand steps backwards. Meanwhile, conscienceless wealthy private interests, and the radical right wing, continue to grow. The farther to the center the Democratic party moves, the stronger wealthy private interests and the radical right wing becomes.
The country has moved so far to the right that Democrats got slaughtered in the last election. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
This pattern has been established, and is set in stone, rinse, wash, repeat, ad infinitum. And the power of wealthy private interests, and their power to control the minds and lives of the populace, grows continuously and enormously with each repetition of the cycle. Yes, moderates do make some slow but welcome changes in social and environmental policy. They are allowed to do so, as long as these policies do not go against the wishes of the global wealthy private interests who control our government.
In defense of moderates, pragmatically, and generally, speaking, only moderate Democrats are allowed to be elected, and this is where their primary value lies in the grand scope and great stage of American politics; they at least make a little progress while in control, and the main benefit is that, during the time the moderates are in control, the republicans are not destroying, raping, and pillaging everything that exists at twice the speed of light.
So, all that said, I would like to ask you: What are your ideas, as a moderate, concerning enacting legislation that will effectively limit the power of wealthy private interests that influence (I would say control) our government, and institute a balanced democratic electoral system free from the inordinate wealth and power that private interests use to both control and win elections? What are your ideas concerning re-establishing the power and influence of workers and labor unions? And by what year, if this is even possible, do you feel that these critical issues can be addressed, and effectively and satisfactorily redressed by moderates?
Personally, I kind of like the radical executive order method that Lincoln used to end the evil of slavery in the US: "Slavery in America is now officially over. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."
You are probably right; the general population of the US appears too concerned and absorbed with the captivating exploits of the Kardashian sisters and the wild, wacky goings on of the Duck Dynasty to ever get off the couch and save their own asses.
Consequently, this generation, or any future generation of Americans, will never see any semblance of a genuine democracy.
But for some reason, some of us still feel a nagging obligation to try. Sometimes, a small, committed, idealistic, radical extremist group of people gets lucky, and somehow manages to get what really needs to get done, done. I suppose it can be said that moderates sort of hold the fort until the cavalry arrives.
------
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)While you think there has been a failure, I see an enormous success. Having been involved in healthcare extensive at both a practical and political level for many, many years, I had come to believe that it was going to be impossible to make the kind of change we needed to make.
While I agree that universal health care is the goal, I firmly believe that we were never going to directly to that. It's too radical, too much change.
But what the Obama administration did is amazing, imo. The kicked down the door in a way that I did not think could happen. We now have universal coverage.
It's not perfect by any means, but it is a clear first step toward universal care and I am 100% behind what is happening here.
It's not that only moderate Democrats are allowed to be elected, it's that that is as far as the general voting populace is willing to go.
The pendulum swings and will continue to change. In the meantime, people like me will blow at it, pushing it a little. People like you will send a windstorm it's way, which is good because there are those on the other side pushing back.
First off, I eschew labels in general. I am moderate on some issues, liberal on others, progressive on others and not really conservative on any. I have no answers to your questions. I evaluate those who are running for office. I evaluate pending legislation and up the noise when there is a chance to fight for or against something. I talk whenever possible to people that I meet about issues that I think are important.
I'm a very little cog, but I think I carry my own. I have actively participated in social movements and was a bigger cog at that time, but still pretty small. I come from a highly politically active family and my 85 year old father participated extensively in OWS and continues to be an activist.
As far as the Lincoln example, be careful what you wish for. It's a delicate balance and someone may come forward with something you despise and say, "If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."
I am no longer an idealist. I am a pragmatist when it comes to most things.
But I honor the activists and your visions. Keep it on, but try not to demonize the smaller cogs who are doing what they can in the way they think is right. In the end, I think we need each other.
... general strikes of the kind you mentioned there in your last full paragraph.
2banon
(7,321 posts)"pacify" the opponent, enemy etc.. under the pretense of "big tent" - "working together" ruse.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)What exactly is wrong with "big tent" and "working together"?
I am really unclear on what you are saying here.
2banon
(7,321 posts)obviously.
but in this context, it might help to read up on the politics of inside/outside. then this will make sense, I think.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I see that it is a concept introduced by a specific group (Progressive Democrats of America) for a specific reason (reforming the Democratic Party). Is that correct? It means that progressives working inside the party join with progressives outside the party to elect progressive Democratic candidates and pursue progressive legislation, right?
But I still don't understand how you meant it when you said:
"pacify" the opponent, enemy etc.. under the pretense of "big tent" - "working together" ruse.
And I still don't understand who the opponent, enemy, that is being pacified is.
Perhaps there is some internecine war going on here that uses a nomenclature with which I am unfamiliar. Surely I am late to this particular party, but I've watched liberal and progressives Democrats eat each other up over who is leftier-than-thou for a long time, and this looks to be more of the same thing.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It becomes more difficult when I discern what appears to be implied support for the Iraq war among other things.
Some few here always seem to take the most conservative position compatible with the TOS though and even manage to push the envelope on that.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)with the TOS and push the envelope on that.
Like I said, it's a big tent and there are a spectrum of ideologies at play. While one may be far left on one issue, the same person may be relatively conservative on another issue.
The point of this site is to promote the Democratic part, it's candidates for office and it's platform. I doubt there is anyone here that is 100% behind all things Democratic.
But the divineness of condemning some as being too far left and others as not being left enough does nothing to advance that goal.
We could do with a lot more recognition that not everyone has to think just like me to have my support. We could also do with more recognition that further left is not necessarily superior on all things.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's been moving to the right on economics at least since I was a young man and I'm a grandfather today and with a small amount of luck I'll see great grandkids before too long.
The way the Overton Window has been moved to the right is by the far right constantly screaming about the far left and they have a huge megaphone as I mentioned in the OP, a megaphone that the left absolutely does not have.
If you are headed for reefs on the starboard side you don't save your vessel by putting the rudder amidships and that's what some DUers seem to want and constantly criticize anyone who would prefer the helmsman put the rudder to port.
Anyhow, I'll get back to my knapping again.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Very interesting. I think it has moved to the right on some issues and to the left on others, no?
I recognize that it is critical to have people who push things outside the window in order to apply continuous pressure in the direction you want to go in. I'm not saying that those that do that should go away, but if that is all that you have, there is very likely going to be a reactionary swing in the other direction, imo.
So not everyone needs to be doing that. It's ok to have a little counter pressure and a great deal of moderate participation.
Constantly criticizing others who are holding a different position is not very constructive in general, particularly when those people really do share your general values and goals. Perhaps the left is missing a megaphone precisely because of the diversity of opinion that seems so glaringly absent in the right.
Enjoy your knapping. We are heading out to test the recently repaired auto-pilot and dump the tanks.
Thanks for the hug, friend.
JustAnotherGen
(31,849 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)than debate the substance of your positions, are consciously trying to provoke that sense of despair and the consequent quietism you evoke here.
The fact that 1% of the country's population controls (aka: "owns" 40% of its wealth and that 10% of the country's population controls 80% of its wealth cannot be defended on moral or ethical grounds. So that fact must be suppressed by ad hominem. That red-baiting shit has been going on here for over 100 years.
I respond that the USSR defeated Hitler while the U.S. and UK were playing at war in North Africa. Oh yeah, and the USSR put the first man and first woman into space. Those 'facts' usually serve to quiet the screeching a bit.
Here's a conversation-stopper quote you should feel free to deploy as necessary:
~Big Bill Haywood of the IWW
beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)And referenced the IWW!
Duppers
(28,125 posts)BainsBane
(53,041 posts)I don't consider far left to be an insult at all. What I consider insulting is when people who claim to be on the left adopt pro-imperialist and pro-war positions, which they think acceptable if on behalf of a nation other than the US.
I also have noticed that some will insist that the "left" is something that can be claimed only by white men, because the concerns of the majority of the population, women, people of color, and LGBT Americans are "Third Way." I don't consider such people leftists at all. There is no version of leftism that treats social justice with contempt and excludes the majority of the population from consideration.
Rex
(65,616 posts)NT.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)who disagree on any particular point, usually over some obsession with a particular public figure.
Rex
(65,616 posts)People inaccurately talk about it all the time, no doubt out of ignorance.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)along with neoconservatism, fascism . . .
Rex
(65,616 posts)Easier to call someone a name then debate their point, I agree.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)to move at least a good ways "left" but we are still hashing out how Republican our candidates need to "act" to get elected. The even sadder part is that too many of our Congresspeople don't seem to be "acting" once they get into their seats. They really are conservative on issues that used to be the opposite of what the Democratic Party stood for. To me, that is the most depressing part. Some of the ones who pretend to be "acting" conservative to get elected, really are.
You are right. It is depressing, all the way around. Our choices are move right or move batshit teabagger right. We have no other options, because somewhere somebody said so and the rest of us had better get in line or else.
Solly Mack
(90,779 posts)beerandjesus
(1,301 posts)There's nothing conservative about the massive social and economic upheaval Republicans advocate on a daily basis. What they propose is nothing short of radical.
The idea that we should preserve and protect what previous generations of Americans have built is fundamentally conservative--whether we're talking Social Security, voting rights, public infrastructure, or restraints on the super-wealthy.
For those of us on the supposed "far left", probably 80% of what we advocate is actually abandoning the failures of the past 30 years and looking to what worked in FDR's time... how is that NOT conservative?
Show me a "Democrat" using the term "far-left" as an insult, and I'll show you someone who, in going along with the Republicans, is probably advocating more radicalism than I am..... and I say this as one who is happy to claim the term "far left" as my own!
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Your posts are always worth reading.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)mainly, imo, because the left and liberalism were so successful in the '30s and '60s.
The corporate right is terrified that something like that will happen again in America. If they can demonize left/liberal analyses and solutions, they've nullified any real alternatives to their free market/authoritarian worldview and even get us to play their game by their rules (which means: we lose).
Here's an interesting paragraph from an article in The Nation recently ("We Need Syriza in Illinois" :
The corporate right has a worldview, and, as Edelmans speech demonstrates, it also has a power analysis from which all strategy flows. In the 1930s, the progressive movements analysis of power rested squarely on the faith that workers in large numbersorganized workerscould challenge unfettered corporate power and improve social conditions. And for many generations, through their unions, that is what they did. Now, progressives in and outside of unions have replaced power structure analysis with short-term tactical maneuvers that rely on something fashionably known as narrative change, done best through paid social media, devoid of vision and without the active participation of large numbers of workers. Worse still, despite our defeats in Wisconsin, our own movement continues to throw large numbers of women and African-Americans under the bus by characterizing public service workers as somehow different from, and of lesser importance than, the heroes of the twentieth centurys labor struggles, the largely white male labor force of heavy industry.
http://www.thenation.com/article/198073/we-need-syriza-illinois#
Great post.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)by Clarence Page
Chicago Tribune, July 29, 2007|
The greatest triumph that conservatives ever achieved is to make liberals embarrassed to call themselves "liberal."
That thought came to mind as I watched Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton rhetorically wriggle her way, as so many liberals do, right out of using the "L-word" to describe herself.
During the CNN/YouTube debate by Democratic presidential candidates, Clinton was asked, "How would you define the word 'liberal' and would you use this word to describe yourself?"
Briefly she showed off her knowledge of the word's various meanings over the past, oh, century or two.
She pointed out how the word used to mean that "you were for the freedom to achieve, that you were willing to stand against big power and on behalf of the individual."
She lamented that the word "in the last 30, 40 years" has been "turned up on its head" and "made to seem as though it is a word that describes big government."
So, she said, she would rather call herself a "modern progressive" who "believes strongly in individual rights and freedoms" and "working together" to "find ways to help those who may not have all the advantages in life get the tools they need to lead a more productive life for themselves and their family."
Nice speech. Historically accurate too. Early liberals were opposed to the oppression brought on by big government. Adam Smith, a founding father of free-market "invisible hand" capitalism, was a classic liberal in that sense.
That sense evolved under the trust-busting of Theodore Roosevelt into a protection of individuals from abuses by big institutions in the private sector too.
Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal shifted the meaning further in favor of big government as a benevolent shield and safety net against unpredictable disasters of life.
After President Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society expansions, it was perhaps inevitable that liberals would go overboard and lose touch with growing middle-class resentments about taxes, welfare abuse and government inefficiency.
The conservative revival found its finest megaphone in Ronald Reagan, who declared:
- "Government is not the answer to the problem. Government is the problem."
- "The most frightening words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.'"
Democratic presidential candidates were blindsided by the Reagan counterrevolution. It took the centrist Bill Clinton to reunite the coalition across racial and class lines that earlier liberal presidents enjoyed.
But for all the efforts by the Clintons to call their politics "centrist" or "progressive" they still get tagged with "liberal" by conservatives who define "liberal" as anyone who is not their idea of conservative.
CONTINUED...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-07-29/news/0707280330_1_liberal-conservatives-big-government
Now, who would have that kind of power and money needed to control the way a word is used in academia and the news media?
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)I don't get angry. I just resign myself to finally understanding that things will never change meaningfully in this nation, when advocating for things like a normal living standard, gender equality, egalitarianism, end to the corporatocracy, money out of politics, action against climate change, universal health care, etc. is treated as "not normal" or "far left." No, these are common sense, pragmatic and moral things to do. If you want "far left," let things continue like they are; that's how revolutions are made (and I'm not talking about revolution in the strict violent uprising sense, thought that could happen, as well, but revolutionary change can take form in many ways). Yes, then, you'll see the "far left" come out in me!
justabob
(3,069 posts)Yes, what you said. How is advocating any of those things extreme or in any way controversial?
dissentient
(861 posts)And heck, I'm used to it by now. The right wing has been insulting the left for years, so if centrists on this site want to join in, its no biggie.
In another thread, I said it really pisses people like right wingers and Democratic centrists/conservatives off that progressives are invariably right on the issues.
That is why it is very rare to see them try and debate progressives on the issues, instead, its all about juvenile and moronic personal attacks. Which really shouldn't be paid any attention to, it's like giving serious attention to a snotty kid who says things like - "You poopie head!"
In other words, these insults are on the exact same level. Far from intelligence, or meaningful debate.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Don't let it get you down.
Greybnk48
(10,170 posts)All of it becomes discouraging over time, which I'm sure is the plan. What is so aggravating is that we are in the majority ("far lefties" , as you allude to, but most people don't know they agree with us. Where on Earth would they get the needed information from a readily available source? It's sad.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)that many find objectionable , rather it is the constant hateful negative spin that is given to other Democrats whose are members of this "far left" group. IMO,,,If as much energy was spent on the positive attributes of candidates with whom you agree support, The cause of "Progressivenism" would be better served. If Progressive Candidates can not stand on their own, they will never succeed!
Warren/Krugman 2016
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I used to despair over the false narratives that keep the Hoi Polloi divided and divisive. I wondered (still wonder, in utter amazement) how we keep missing the fact that radical income inequity is our slavery du jour, and that our economic behaviors are on the razor edge of the Abyss of Profound Change. That the internet will remain neutral gives me hope that #Occupy and Anonymous might be the vanguards of the changes to come.
Trying to engage people in discussions about our economic behaviors often nets what I call the "deer in the headlights" look so common among my math students. I got into a lively and instructive discussion with my nephew just yesterday, and I am so thrilled that he is thinking about the economy and (gasp, shudder!) the challenges we're facing as a species. No "deer in the headlights" from him! I suspect that more of our younglings are so thinking, and that is a good thing.
I hope to embody the liberal perspectives that won us a 40 hour work week, weekends, benefits, Social Security, Medicare, and other incredibly important workers' rights. These are small solace in an economic system that oppresses the vast Hoi Polloi for the enrichment of a minuscule number of (largely) old, white males. But, it's a start--or, should I say, a foot in the door.
I DO hope that the minimum wage will increase (gradually), so that more of the Hoi Polloi can participate in this oppressive economic system, and stave off hunger and homelessness. But, if the austerity of poverty is the catalyst needed to effect radical change, so be it! (And, thanks, Z***, for helping me see your POV.)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Centrist policies are repeatedly characterized as far left.
I am losing my enthusiasm. High enthusiasm equals high voter participation. I'm just saying.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I'm 70. And, I've heard them all directed at me and others who dared to challenge the establishment and hold public servants accountable.
Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently.
Rosa Luxemburg
TBF
(32,084 posts)you know what.
Besides, serious leftists were deported by Palmer and McCarthy. That was within the last 100 years and we are so watered down that CPUSA endorsed Obama for president. Seriously. They have no clue.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)
principles of Marxism came in the mid-70s from a CP-USA member at the time). I understand that the CP-USA has since turned away from its illustrious past and become quite the 'reformist' party (the technical term for this is 'Browderism,' IIRC). But it was not always thus.
I just laugh when I hear Republicans call Obama a 'Socialist.' (They also call FDR a 'Socialist.') I mean, what else can you do? You can't educate the fools. And we don't have a gulag, which in any case should be reserved only for high-level enemies of the state like Bush and Cheney and not quotidian thought crimes.
TBF
(32,084 posts)I'm actually registered as a dem because I caucused for Obama in TX in 2008 (and served as co-precinct chair). After 8 years of the Bush/Cheny hot mess we needed someone who could win to get him the hell out of Washington. I literally breathed a sigh of relief when he got on the helicopter and left. I'm sure Obama did as well.
So I look for the least objectionable candidate whenever I face the ballot. The person(s) who will do the least amount of damage and maybe even help some of us normal folks.
And in the meantime I advocate from the left because that is the only way to even slow down the monsters (capitalists) in charge.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)to spend far less time on them than I do on more direct activities, like volunteering to help the homeless or protesting against the war(s) (while Bush and Cheney were in office) in the streets. I live in Maxine Waters' CD and she and the CA Dem Party hardly need my help or efforts, when compared to the needs of others far less fortunate.
TBF
(32,084 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)What is actually moderately leftist views expressed here are often viewed as "extreme"..
There is a certain wanting of a more higher (for the lack of a better term), level of discourse with regard to socio-economic issues, current geo-political events, but most especially to our own highly corrupt political "system" as concerns Elections, National Security State, and so on.
What gives me hope, are the scores of highly informed members here engaging and sharing information despite the assassin attempts to derail and disrupt by Neo-Conservatives here, posing as "Liberals".
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)to the way it has been used on the right, as a pejorative.
And it annoys me to no end, being old enough to have seen the word "liberal" and the phrase "far left" so demonized.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)These days my memory works better when I have something to play off and respond to, pulling an OP out of my head is a lot more difficult.
That being prelude to saying that I should have put liberal used as a pejorative in my OP and didn't think of it, thanks for bring it up.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Which is why I take everything they say with a grain of salt. They talk just like the GOP and hate on liberals just like the GOP. Pretty easy to figure out.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)The right of center Democrats have to relabel the left "far left" to make themselves look left of center.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)We should start calling them the far-right Democrats or something.
Reagan Democrats?
Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)all you have to is read the '56 Repub. party platform posted elsewhere in this thread.
BTW - I did consider using "far-right Democrats" in that post. Either term works for me.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)1950s Republicans insisted on a 91% top tax rate, and were OK with unions.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Mnpaul
(3,655 posts)They usually run away quite quickly. If they don't, I post more stuff they do not care to see.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Put that one on ignore if you value your sanity.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)of the conversation it can make it hard to discern what happened to a disrupted thread once it has been disrupted by such.
Also, I can not stand bullys and that one goes after everybody in sight.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)bullys. But I also can't stand people that provoke, bully and then smile when they piss someone off over the cliff.
Rex
(65,616 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)designed to confuse people. The GOP has been successful at framing the argument on a variety of issues over the past 35 years. Ronald Reagan was the perfect President to do this because he seemed sincere. And we all know that when you can fake sincerity you can win the debate.
Anytime we allow the GOP to set the terms of the debate we will lose the debate. When the GOP decides the range of options the left has no options. That is how things work. When Bush the Lesser said: "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists" he was only following the GOP playbook. And it worked. Rather than discuss the "why" of September 11, many Democratic politicians fell all over themselves to declare that they were just as tough as the GOP when it came to fighting terrorists.
Same thing happens with Social Security. Rather than discuss how we can adjust benefits to preserve Social Security, discuss raising the ceiling on income subject to the tax.
When you wrote:
"Far left" is a conservative Republican meme that has been pumped into the national consciousness through quite literally thousands of radio stations and a full time 24/7/365 cable propaganda outlet. It's a phrase from Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich designed specifically to drive a wedge into the non-conservative Republican bloc in America.
you nailed it. Memes are great because they are easy to remember. Bumper sticker philosophy for the illiterate.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)website by alleged Democrats.
That's what I find depressing.
randys1
(16,286 posts)IS that what these threads are about?
Context please?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)because I do not support Hillary as a candidate for the WH and would prefer someone less Hawkish to lead this country..
So I know what you mean. If this the NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY, no wonder they are losing elections.
But for me, it is not acceptable to allow them to drive long time Democrats out of the Party, which appears to the the goal.
It makes me MORE determined to take the party out of the hands of those who clearly despise the Left because it is OUR Party.
However you are correct, these tactics of attacking Democrats is driving voters away.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I have no idea why people resist and resent demonstrably true non-pejorative descriptors, and far left is both for much of DU. Even though I am way closer to the center than many here overall, I have quite a few opinions that fall in line as far left compared to the overall US population. I describe them that way myself and have no problem others using the term. Things like health care, progressive taxes, corporate taxes and regulations, basic income guarantees spring to mind. Things like absolute equality for all and legalization of drugs used to be far left but are now becoming a bit more centered.
Now if you share those opinions AND think that, for instance, all guns should be destroyed, capitalism needs to be overturned, wealth caps should be put in place at a millions rather than billions level if at all, military budgets should be cut by 90%, whole industries should be nationalized, bank CEOs should be imprisoned en masse etc etc (and these are not difficult opinions to find on DU by any means) then that kind of worldview would correctly be identified as far left in the US and there's nothing wrong with that. Most Americans will disagree, me included, but most Americans disagree on all kinds of preferences and opinions and unlike the far right opinions (where strangely there is little resistance to the label) there is likely to be little direct harm caused beyond economic drags. People wouldn't starve or die under such plans as a matter of course.
So far left is simply a position on the political spectrum. It HAS to exist. Somebody has to fit on that edge as it's a continuum, and when poll after poll after poll shows a large supermajority of self-described liberal Democrats who, for example, approve of Clinton and Obama, where else would people who consider them to be far far too right for their tastes, a very common opinion here, fit on that spectrum but much further to the left? What should that position be called on the left-right continuum when about 90% of the populace either thinks Obama is too left wing or doing fine? How small does the tail of people even more leftward have to be before far left is the best descriptor?
It's not the newest of polls but it's unlikely to have shifted too much so here's exactly what I mean. Only 10% of Americans think Obama is too conservative, and that of course must include people who think he is only a BIT too conservative. So when people disparage him on DU as being way too right for them, far more than 90% of the US disagrees and has a less left leaning opinion of him. What else could that possibly be then but a far left opinion?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/152954/half-say-obama-liberal-agree-issues.aspx
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And yet I get the label "far left" or "fringe left" thrown at me fairly regularly and I know I'm not alone.
It seems to me to be more about candidates and personalities than anything. For instance if you aren't "Ready for Hillary" at this moment there is a clique here who delight in throwing terms like fringe left around despite the fact that Hillary hasn't even declared she is running yet and probably won't for quite some time yet.
What's interesting to me is that the 1956 Republican platform sounds like a leftish Democrat now, you really don't have to go much further left to be labeled fringe or far left these days.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=25838
On social services:
We are proud of and shall continue our far-reaching and sound advances in matters of basic human needsexpansion of social security, broadened coverage in unemployment insurance, improved housing and better health protection for all our people.
On the environment:
We favor a comprehensive study of the effect upon wildlife of the drainage of our wetlands.
We recognize the need for maintaining isolated wilderness areas.
On regulation of business:
A continuously vigorous enforcement of anti-trust laws
Legislation to enable closer Federal scrutiny of mergers which have a significant or potential monopolistic connotations
Procedural changes in the antitrust laws to facilitate their enforcement.
On labor:
Stimulate improved job safety of our workers, through assistance to the States, employees and employers;
Continue and further perfect its programs of assistance to the millions of workers with special employment problems, such as older workers, handicapped workers, members of minority groups, and migratory workers;
Strengthen and improve the Federal-State Employment Service and improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system;...
Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of Sex;
Clarify and strengthen the eight-hour laws for the benefit of workers who are subject to federal wage standards on Federal and Federally-assisted construction, and maintain and continue the vigorous administration of the Federal prevailing minimum wage law for public supply contracts;
Extend the protection of the Federal minimum wage laws to as many more workers as is possible and practicable;
Continue to fight for the elimination of discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry or sex;
Provide assistance to improve the economic conditions of areas faced with persistent and substantial unemployment;
Revise and improve the Taft-Hartley Act so as to protect more effectively the rights of labor unions, management, the individual worker, and the public.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm a little left of the 1956 Republican platform, if that puts me in the 10% then the problem is obvious.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)doesn't even have a left, much less a far left. We have a duopoly with two right wings, one so far off balance that it points down and the other in a little closer to going around the bend than most that naturally should be in that position.
Democrats are quite possibly the second most rightest governing party in the developed world.
Open your eyes, essentially Bircherism is now a solidly "main stream" ideology, a "conservative" one but definitely mainstreamed. Any objective "moderate" on the political spectrum has to get in the neighborhood or at least viewing distance from "far left".
Sure, there are folks that might hold some more actually leftist beliefs be it one, several, many or on some rare occasions be firmly camped there but they are not generally speaking even ever heard from much less actually driving the bus at all.
Democratic - Socialist are all but nonexistent and virtually powerless, the significant spectrum of further left is vaporware for all intents and purposes.
Meanwhile, across the aisle we've got folks openly tap dancing and pushing on the lines that cross into theocracy, feudalism, the dark ages, colonialism, the worst of Dickinson, and pre Magna Carta times.
Bullshit, most of what passes for the "far left" today are yesterday's mainstream and folks claiming to be ever so "liberal" are Reaganites without the Southern Strategy with "Centrists" being the safety net cutting austerity nuts, slaves to the MIC, wage killing loons that Ike warned us about.
The political spectrum is a broken joke with the full and varying range of The Good Old Boys from "The Blues Brothers" both kinds country and western.
Kermitt Gribble
(1,855 posts)Yet, we see it used so much here...
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)If you have opinions to the left of 90+% of the nation, what else can you be but far left? Since some opinions are left of others what are those who consistently prefer the opinions much further left than the norm properly to be called?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)With the proviso that the term "Democratic" , "liberal" or "left" be stripped from those policies in the polling questions.
Liberal and left have been demonized for so long that many people automatically react negatively to those words without knowing what they actually mean.
wilsonbooks
(972 posts)Kermitt Gribble
(1,855 posts)Edit to say I just read you're response to the OP above.
I see very few people supporting the "far left" issues you listed. Many DUers are regularly labeled "far left" simply for their support of traditional Democratic Party values.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Nobody here has advocated for the confiscation of private property, and organizing the workers into collectives. THAT is "Far Left".
The DU members being labeled "Far Left" are those who still believe in the New Deal (FDR) and the Great Society (LBJ)
Among these are:
*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
*The right of every family to a decent home;
*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
*The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]
Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.
I believe in those principles. They are not "Far Left".
They are mainstream FDR Democratic Values.
My vote and support WILL go to whoever BEST embodies these values.
I am too old and tired to again support the Least of the Worst.
Let the chips fall where they may.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's really a shame that the New Deal is now considered to be extremist.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Same goddamn opinions I have held since my 20's. Only then I was considered a Democrat and now I am considered, "far left loony".
Like you I used to be a daily contributor here. Now days I come by once or twice a week and can't stay longer than it takes to read a few threads. And that is with me filling up my ignore list. I came here in 2004 and for 10 years never put anyone on ignore. Finally I had to, it was that or leave for good. And now even with a big ignore list, there is just too much demand for "loyalty".
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Hence the OP..
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)I let myself get annoyed by this shit. I know I shouldn't, I can't help it...
Anyway, thanks for the OP.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,347 posts)I think those can be seen as 'far left'. Certainly well to the left of FDR's "right of every businessman, large and small, to trade ...".
2banon
(7,321 posts)even if we'd like more, but hell, we don't even have politicians supporting AND fighting for FDR policies, instead we have politicians and their functionaries giving LIP SERVICE to those policies while at the same time signing legislation that eliminates them while their apologists make claims that didn't happen. THAT's the problem in a nutshell.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)I truly consider what most people call "far left" these days to be the center. Nothing on that list, to me, is a far left position. But to far too many it is.
romanic
(2,841 posts)To me far left is the extreme fringe of liberalism whereas being a liberal is more "left of center" on social/economic issues. I've always been a mix of moderate/liberal Dem on certain issues but I'd never consider myself far off to the left.
But regardless of what I think about the labels, you're free to feel how you feel OP and not give a damn about what others say so good on you.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)Pro Regulations? Pro-Enviroment? Pro-Union?
Welcome to what is now called.. The Far Left.
romanic
(2,841 posts)Pro-Regulations/Environment/Union to be fringe issues at all (everybody should support them). I guess the right mainstream media has moved the goal post quite a bit then. :I
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)that almost any left leaning thoughts are considered fringe. Yesterday Scott Walker compared Unions to ISIS.
pa28
(6,145 posts)There's a fight for the future of the party and we're finally gaining ground. Finally winning.
Bad news is the centrist third-wayers who have controlled the party and presided over catastrophic losses during the last 20 years won't leave voluntary until EVERYTHING is gone.
Unfortunately we're nearly there.
Response to pa28 (Reply #132)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)The "left" is neither angry nor unreasonable. They have simply been marginalized by rampant use of "Overton Window" theory to the point where those who are entering the window from the Right feel it's okay to shove people on the Left out of the Democrat party all together.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)important than breaking their control of the party and rooting them out because it says with extreme certainty where they stand, what their agenda is, and what they want for America which is right wingery and I don't care if they can spell, think tricorn hats are icky, aren't churchy types, and aren't boiling over bigots they are still ideologically venom spitting hateful enemies of everything I believe in POLITICALLY even if they aren't garbage in human flesh.
Being a hateful ass bigot isn't a conservative political orientation, it is being a piece of anti enlightenment, stupid, vile shit. Not being a bigot isn't a liberal political orientation. It is just being a bare minimum, baseline acceptable person.
There is nothing "conservative" about forced ultrasounds or about keeping black people from voting, it is just being monstrous and authoritarian as can be.
You expect someone to be impressed at your far seeing wisdom that creates a new world that you don't hold with state enforced rape via probe? Or that you accept all us are human is special? What do you want a gold star because you blink too?
Shit, it is my opinion that calling one's self liberal over such basic things turns out to actually be a message that all this wicked, radically regressive positions are fucking debatable, things that reasonable people can disagree about, even in the area of acceptable by placing basic humanity as at least in sight of the bleeding edge.
So when we actually ever discuss actual governance folks get all "centrist" and flat out conservative real quickly and all I see is temporarily embarrassed or excluded Republicans and until they are neutralized there can be no effective counter for the idiot, animal cousins that use another letter behind their name.
All they are in the party for that I can see is to assimilate it and/or not be ashamed or create a right wing they can be a part of and that is it. I'm also rubbed the wrong way by people that use their focus issues essentially as hostages demanding go their way or _____ gets fucked over and it is all your fault.
To hell with that! Once a cancer like that takes hold it must be irradiated only then will the remaining healthy surrounding cells be free from that grip so that we can even staunch the bleeding much less move forward with an effective offense against the regressives.
Damansarajaya
(625 posts)in the puerile smackdown, the cutting remark, the more-liberal-than-thou attack, and the demand that posters with ten years on these boards be BANNED for finally revealing themselves "homophobic" or "misogynistic" or "racist" or whatever identity-politics-speak they apparently violated.
Folks, it's the right wing who we should be dividing and conquering, not each other.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)stupidicus
(2,570 posts)If by "far left" they mean the kind of left that many of them have either left (usually on the BC gravy train) or they were never a part of for whatever reason, well, that's me.
What slays me isn't their effort at insulting us that obviously is, it's how stupid it is coming from those who claim to be on the left themselves. It's almost like they are arguing that their admitted and obvious rightward movement that attempted insult requires of them, has and will continue to lead towards the moral high ground we old lefties never occupied.
Imagine that -- moving right is into the light and away from what, the darkness of the New Deal...
ybbor
(1,555 posts)I too would be considered "far left" and get sick of the "this is a democratic website" so get on board bullshit I see far too often.
I am far left, which a few decades ago just meant Democratic. Today we are consider "radicals" when we used to just be mainstream.
I so fucking tired of the "mainstream Dems" telling people like me, and sounds like you, to just follow behind the status quo. Well I'm sorry, but that is contrary to what I believe the Democratic Party is supposed to represent.
I refuse to support a center-right person because it is their rightful turn to be "our" candidate. I want the most progressive candidate possible. I supported Kucinich with all my power and canvassing, but went door-to-door for both Kerry and Obama. I will also support whatever candidate that the Dems put forward. I just wish that we had the balls to throw all of our support behind a Bernie Sanders or an Elizabeth Warren.
The only thing that will keep me from voting third party if we don't get a candidate along their lines is the the Supreme Court. And that just totally sucks! I am afraid we will get a center-right candidate, see Hillary, and nothing will improve for any of us 99%ers. And again they will play us for the fools they believe we are.
My rant is over, but I am still a very proud "Far left zealot".
Response to Fumesucker (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
marym625
(17,997 posts)Is there anything I can do to help you? You're so angry. I guess you've been hurt deeply.
Hugs.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Signing up with another account just to tsk tsk Fume...oh my!
marym625
(17,997 posts)What are we if we don't reach out to those in need? Try to heal the scars left by things like, to quote the Rude Pundit, "Negro communist Muslim president who hates America must want to kill all the white people and take their guns in order to burn the Constitution and install a Sharia law caliphate in the country."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Gun humpers are going crazy over this!
Rex
(65,616 posts)Seriously, you guys just give up trying with your real accounts?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Remember where the symbol for the Democratic Donkey comes from.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Just remember Fume, those that always talk crap to you also always support the far-right of the party. Be encouraged by the fact that they are losing here with their pathetic propaganda campaign. Nobody is buying it anymore and that has them scared to death.
dissentient
(861 posts)The only question is was it a sock, or just a typical right winger?
I missed the message before it was deleted, so I can only speculate.
Between this and the "Greenwald is holding a trophy" EPIC thread, it has been hilarious here lately. Watching the freak-outs, that is.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Far right or far left are at a fairly fair risk of becoming/being extreme.
Some greed might be motivational, too much becomes rapacity.
Some generosity usually is good, too much can entail spoliation.
May I suggest the humble, unglamorous middle ground of moderation?
G_j
(40,367 posts)It's really all in the meaning people ascribe to these words. The OP is also correct in pointing out the origins and use of the meme "far left".
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)If Rush Limbaugh calls you far left, it doesn't make you so.
The only real far left are people like Lenin, Castro, Chavez, to a lesser degree Mitterrand, people who nationalize private property and try to regulate markets.
Otherwise, I suppose most Democrats are Social Democrats, like Blair, Obama, Clinton, Shroeder.
Ed Milliband would probably be around the hedge of being too far left.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)breath too.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)Given how much you seem focused on trying to convince people to hate Democrats, it seems a bit silly to me. We'd likely do better without you driving people away.
Polling shows that 80% of liberal Democrats like Obama. How far left do you have to be to think of him as some sort of Republican in disguise?
Regardless, even "far left" isn't an insult. It's a descriptor. Now "whiny unrealistic counterproductive wingnut" might be closer to the mark.
Try not to be that way. Because holding your breath until you get 110% of what you want doesn't help anyone (except the opposition).
- C.D. proud Member of the Reality Based Community
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)in other words, things are going exactly as planned.
Response to Fumesucker (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
Badass Liberal
(57 posts)Sorry, but stand up for what you believe.
I know I'm new. But there's a reason the word "ass" is in my username.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I don't care if something is left, right, up, or down but if it is the right thing to do as well as fair, you don't want to want to provide anything job title unconditional support & trust or a sociopath will easily take advantage of it & trust me, those aren't the kind of people you want to providing this benefit of doubt or embracing what they say as absolute truth.
With so much war, unemployment, poverty, & multinationals already directing foreign policy -- being far left doesn't mean you're incorrect or what you believe in doesn't matter. Bush made many decisions that angered me & early on when I saw Obama used Bush-era arguments to argue against giving Bagram detainees the Habaeas Corpus rights to challenge their detention the indifference, anger, & mocking of the far left as so out of touch with there criticism but I got used to it & accepted that as the new normal of the new normal which is a victory for the legacy of politicians but not a victory for those they don't care about. Want your votes & money but it isn't enough to compromise their careers for the desires of sociopaths.