If Netanyahu stays in power, should the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[Ken Burch]

The man may have won, and he's going to spend the rest of his time in office(which may be the rest of eternity)stealing West Bank land, keeping the IDF in the West Bank, bombing Gaza and killing mainly innocent people, and in general destabilizing the region AND immiserating the people of Israel with perpetual austerity.

Is there any good reason to keep providing military aid to a country whose leaders demand that we underwrite the persecution of the people of Palestine unto their tenth generation? A country where change is now permanently impossible and history is over? Where there will never be another progressive, pro-peace government now, no matter what?

37 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, we should keep providing the aid no matter what.
	6 (16%)
	No, we should stop providing the aid, at least until Netanyahu leaves office, since he is a purely negative figure
	29 (78%)
	Not sure.
	1 (3%)
	Other.
	1 (3%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Jester Messiah]

1. Cut 'em off period.

We've taken so much shit on behalf of that "ally", I think it's well past time to turn off the tap.

[yeoman6987]

9. I would vote yes if I had any confidence it would stop

By mid 2016, we will be sending more military aid probably by the President. I just don't see us stopping it. Just a guess but I believe I may be right.

[Luke Zee]

34. Yes.....

...to BDS!

[MohRokTah]

2. We should cut ties with Israel should NEtanyahu remain. eom

[yallerdawg]

6. You're back!

Welcome!!!

Israel is a top world economy, Netanyahu thumbs his nose at us.

[Ken Burch]

12. Actually, Israel is in recession and the poverty rates are soaring.

Netanyahu is kicking the poor in Israel(no matter which religion or ethnicity they are)in the teeth on a daily basis. Only a tiny few there are actually prospering.

[e-cigdub]

3. i think

i think it should be phased gradually over a few years. The reason i say that is not just because of israel but our own jobs in the usa. Believe it or not a lot of that money used by israel has to be used to buy american weapons so that means some jobs here could be lost. I think it should be phased out over a 3 year period. But to be fair id like to keep more of the foreign aide money here in the usa. we need that money.

[safeinOhio]

4. Start docking them for every

Olive tree cut down and every inch of land taken.

[oldandhappy]

5. I would like to think we could cut them off.

They are rich enough to buy elections here!! And rich enough to hold our Congress in their hands. But Congress would have to vote and you know 1) they do not vote!! and 2) they have the israeli money!!

So. Dreams and reality are very different.

[onenote]

53. who is "they"?

Are you saying Israelis are contributing large sums to US elections? Please provide a link to back that up.

[Nite Owl]

7. I think the aid should be stopped

but there are too many in Congress who wouldn't let it happen.

[Journeyman]

8. So long as Israel has socialized medicine for all, I don't see why we give them gun money. . .

I'm not against socialized medicine; I'd like it for myself. But when the Israelis are able to afford universal medical care in part because we pick up such a hefty portion of their military budget, there's something seriously wrong with our priorities and theirs.

How can they proclaim themselves our friends and then use us so crassly?

Let them cut their social services (much as we have had forced on us here) in order to pay for this elusive "security" they claim they can only gain from the barrel of a gun. Once they prove their commitment to themselves, then we can talk about renewing their financial dependence on us.

But I suspect, if the money we presently send the Israelis was spent instead to underwrite "health care for all" here in the States, we wouldn't be too eager to give it back.

And in that, I'm sure we'd be just like the Israelis are today.

[onecaliberal]

17. ^^^That^^^

X 1000000

[Bettie]

59. They are our friends in the same way

that big dumb guy is the nerd's "friend" in school.

As long as you do my homework and give me your lunch money, I'm your 'friend', just don't expect me to treat you well or talk to you in the hallways.

[MADem]

10. Congress won't defund Israel, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. nt

[Protalker]

13. Sheldon Adelson won.

Now on to the war with Iran. Game, Set, Match!

[MADem]

19. There are a lot of uncounted ballots, yet--the soldiers' votes. They have no absentee ballots--

those aren't allowed.

It's close. http://www.nytimes.com/live/israel-elections-vote-results/in-israel-there-are-different-ways-to-count-to-61/

If Bibi wins, he may not have enough "oomph" to do much of anything. He might have hamstrung himself. He'll have to give his partners something for keeping him in the driver's seat. Whoever ends up with it, there will be a lot of horse trading and soul selling.

So much for Bibi being a "wizard" in calling this election. From his shitty remarks about Arab Israelis, he's not a wizard, more like a Grand Wizard...

[geek tragedy]

22. Not yet, this divorce will happen slowly over decades.

Just like the parties traded positions over slavery and racism over several decades, so too will they change with regards to Isrseli apartheid, with the Democrats slowly moving towards an anti-apartheid position while the Republicans align themselves with apartheid Israel.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. Sad but true. N.T.

[DustyJoe]

11. cut it all off

The US has no money to give Israel or ANY country that isn't borrowed from China. The cash disbursements whether under the umbrella of 'Aid' in any form needs to be stopped. We cannot feed the worlds starving with Chinas money, we can't even feed our own. Cut all the aid, the US stopped being the worlds premier economy years ago, the countries in need can go with their hands out to the better off economies and the US has to heal it's economic wounds and stop adding more borowed debt with our begging bowl held out. Eighteen trillion in debt and climbing.

[bluedigger]

14. We should honor our existing commitments.

If we renege on our commitments because we don't like the democratically elected leader of the country then we have effectively underscored the 47 Traitor's letter to Iran that we cannot be trusted. Our future policy in the ME is always open to revision, of course, depending on our interests.

[840high]

20. Agree.

[geek tragedy]

23. Those commitments are a dead letter now that

Israel's official position is permanent apartheid. That changes everything.

[leftynyc]

44. No - that's bibi's stated position

There is no Israeli official position. And the US is not going to cut off aid. You already know this.

[geek tragedy]

55. No, Bibi's party controls Congress so the aid will flow.

Bibi is the current and future prime minister. And he won because he promised there would be no Palestinian state.

So, neither the Palestinians nor the US are going to bother with talks anymore. There is nothing to talk about.

The Palestinians have two choices--armed rebellion or going through the UN.

The US has only one sensible choice:

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,970468,00.html

[blkmusclmachine]

15. NO

[onecaliberal]

16. Not only no, but hell no.

Not monetary or military. No aid of no kind, at all.

[Chan790]

18. Only if they pay for it.

There is no free lunch.

If Israel wants US armaments and ordinance, they can pay for it...either in currency or by bartering concessions towards a lasting peace that allows us to eventually get off the hook for arming them.

[think]

21. When leaders become callous about killing women & children in hospitals, schools, & shelters

they do not deserve more ammo....


A UN shelter (Apparently the video is expired but the story remains:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/meast/mideast-crisis/


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11007940/Gaza-Nearly-300-Palestinian-children-killed-says-UN.html


Gaza crisis: UN claims Israel did not allow evacuation from shelter before strikes - as it happened

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/24/gaza-crisis-palestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates

[Brigid]

24. Absolutely not.

We (supposedly) can't even provide school lunches for our kids, and yet we shovel millions to Israel? For what, exactly? I don't ever recall us getting anything in return.

[Man from Pickens]

25. stop all aid

time for us to stop expensively playing hegemon... the game is up already

[ozone_man]

26. We should never have supplied aid in the first place.

Why support this right wing apartheid regime?

[joshcryer]

27. "let all Israeli citizens move here"

WTF?

[Ken Burch]

30. If it's a choice between that and militarily subsudizing a permanently right-wing, pro-war regime

Then yes.

Mind you, I'd have always been ok with that...most of the people living in Israel now would likely always have been safer if they or their parents had been allowed to continue to move to this country(and if the U.S. hadn't adopted what amounted to a "Jewish Exclusion" immigration policy in the 1920's, the vast majority of those who ended up either dead in the Holocaust of living in what became Israel would likely have moved to the U.S. and lived out their lives in peace and prosperity.

The governments of United States and Canada committed a great crime in barring closing the doors to Jewish immigration, and bear, to my mind, shared responsibility for the Holocaust. The U.S. has never apologized for closing the door to those fleeing for their lives.

But it's not going to happen anyway, and I've now shown that I didn't mean anything like you assumed I meant, so you've got nothing to be sanctimonious about.

My position here is pro-common humanity and anti-genocide.

[joshcryer]

35. "let all Palestinians move to Jordan or Saudi Arabia"

How does that sound to you?

Get rid of the "right of return" which forbids Palestinians to have any citizenship in any Arab country, and that's what would happen.

The two state solution is the only solution, this "relocation" crap is garbage (the "right of return" is genocidal in its own right, but if there was a two state solution many would stay).

[Ken Burch]

36. I support a two-state solution, but the fact is, if Netanyahu stays in, its dead. Everything's over

How can anyone still argue that, if Likud remained in power, the two-state solution would still have any chance at all?

And "let all Palestinians move to Jordan or Saudi Arabia" is the Likud position(that party still refuses to accept that Palestinians have any connection to those lands at all, or are even a real group-Likud and everyone else on the Israeli Right are the last people in the world who still buy into the "no such thing as a Palestinian" canard. Nobody in Palestine would ever willingly move to Jordan or Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country. If you want Palestinians to give up full RoR, you need to get the Israelis to admit that Palestinians in exile did have a home in the lands they were driven out of, and do deserve apologies and acknowledgments of their loss(in addition to compensation). But Netanyahu won't do that, and now it looks like Netanyahu will be in until he dies.

Can you give me any good reason NOT to feel totally hopeless about the idea of the two-state solution? I want it too, but now what possible chance of it is there? Likud is just going to keep stealing land and keep sending more and more troops in to crush ordinary Palestinians under their bootheels. And it's impossible to get a different Palestinian leadership(especially a better one, since nobody anywhere ever switches from bad leaders to good while the entire population is being repressed)from either of those things being done.

BTW, you know perfectly well I wasn't talking about FORCING anybody to leave, or even asking anyone to leave. So quit acting like I proposed something evil. I posted that line in a moment of extreme despair. And even though there's no reason to be outraged by it, I'll delete it now, because it isn't that important either way.

[joshcryer]

38. Palestinians have no power over RoR.

Palestinians literally live in refugee camps because no country will recognize them. They are literally non-recognized by birthright.

Palestinians have tried to gain status in Jordon but the Jordanian king has actually revoked citizenship of Palestinians. Syria, Lebanon, and Jordon house 3 million Palestinian refugees (this is larger than the Gaza Strip and West Bank combined). No citizenship rights. No voting rights. They cannot leave, they cannot migrate, unless they go through really big hoops and get lucky (some gay Palestinians have successfully been able to get out of there and go to EU, but it's a very difficult prospect).

The two state solution is obviously not happening under Netanyahu. But it's naive to think that suddenly they would come to the US if they got granted automatic citizenship. Yes there would be a few thousand a year, similar to Cuba, but for the most part they would stay.

Allow Palestinians to leave the refugee camps and become citizens in other Arab countries, then there would be mass migrations.

BTW, let me make this really clear. Palestinians are "Palestinians" by birthright, if you have a yellow card that says that your father was Palestinian you're a Palestinian even if you were born in Syria, Lebanon, or Jordon. You are forever slighted as such. This is why the Jordanian king has been trying to deport Palestinians there.

Can you imagine a law saying Native Americans can't leave their reservation? Because that's how the Arab world treats Palestinian refugees.

And to say that the US should solve this problem by trying to force a mass migration is no different than saying the Arab world should solve this problem by allowing people to leave the open air prisons that are the refugee camps.

[Ken Burch]

43. Look, ok, the Palestinians should be allowed out of the camps.

But the whole Likudnik demand that they just move to other Arab countries is insulting. Palestinians are not "generic Arabs", and even if they did move to other countries, they'd stay just as committed to coming home as they are now. They would never do what Netanyahu wants them to do and say "ok, we admit that the whole 'Palestinian' thing was never real".

For one, Palestinian identity as a nation has always been real. It's just silly for anyone to deny that.

Two, they were wronged by being driven out in 1948 and 1967. If they aren't to have physical RoR, they at least need to have their connection to Palestine officially affirmed and to be given apologies and acknowledgments that they didn't deserve to be driven out. Those two things are crucial.

Also, there should probably be French-style "overseas department" seats in the Palestinian legislature for those Palestinians who aren't going to be allowed to physically go home.

Nobody has the right to tell them to "just get over it".

Any more than anyone had the right to tell the Askenazim who arrived in the U.S between the 1880's and 1924 to "just get over" getting driven out of the Pale by the pogroms.

People's pain and people's reality must always be acknowledged-that's the only way you end wars.

And as I just said, I wasn't calling for the U.S. to "force a mass migration". Don't misrepresent my views.

[joshcryer]

52. The two state solution is the only way.

Bibi is only delaying the inevitable.

If you think Israeli's don't have as much desire to live in Israel that they would migrate to the US if we had an open immigration policy, I think that is naive. Bibi won reelection. Doesn't that tell you that they want to keep the land and defend it?

Gaza is a hell on earth, I highly doubt a lot of people would stay given the option to leave. I'd say at least half the population would leave. It is a humans rights violation of the highest degree, with Israel's collective punishment with the blockaids, and the Arab worlds refusal to make things work (it would not be hard to broker an agreement to lift the blockaid but Israel would almost certainly want to have it say "we respect Israel's right to exist," which of course Hamas wouldn't have).

The West Bank is another matter, they would very likely stay put in large numbers, however, Bibi is attempting the failing solution to squeeze out any Palestinians that live there. ie, turn their settlements in the West Bank into their own little Gaza hells on Earth.

[Rex]

28. What is it exactly we give them in military aid? They have better tanks then we do.

Supposedly there intel agencies are better than ours. What is it exactly that they still need from us? Nukes? They got those. Advanced warfare technology. Got that too. And ironclad guarantee that if any of their neighbors attacks them, we will always defend them. Yes.

[chemenger]

63. How about roughly $3.2 billion annually

nt

[Rex]

64. But what does it go for is what I wonder?

They seem to have all the military toys they will ever need.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

29. In my opinion, there is no nation worthy of US support in the Middle East

I oppose sending troops to defend any government there. I oppose sending any aid to any Middle East nation. I oppose any US official wasting a moment of time trying to broker peace there.

We have enough oil, natural gas, wind, nuclear, and coal power to live without anything they can offer, and we have people like Elon Musk leading the charge toward cleaner energy. No more tax money to defend absolute monarchs, theocracies, and dictators. At such time that a secular democracy emerges that offers sufferage for all; freedom of faith for all; and will protect the rights of women and the LGBT, then we can talk.

[moondust]

31. Will he use it to

destroy what's left of Gaza if/when the Palestinians show their dispproval and some "incidents" start to happen?

bomb Iran?

Assuming that he would, I vote no.

Ugh.

[Marr]

32. I'm not comfortable using aid to influence foreign elections, so no.

But I think our aid to Israel should be greatly reduced, regardless of who is leading that country.

[Chathamization]

33. Why does it matter if he won? Herzog was a strong supporter of Netanyahu's bombing of Gaza

I'm not thrilled by the idea of helping out supporters of some of Netanyahu's worst actions who think that the main problem is there needs to be a friendly face and a good diplomatic spin on things.

[Ken Burch]

37. Herzog wasn't my favorite either.

But getting Netanyahu out was crucial. Nothing can change while that guy and that party remain in power.

And Herzog would have had the Meretz party (the peace party)in his coalition. Nothing but death junkies will be in a renewed Netanyahu regime. Nobody on that part of the Israeli political spectrum will ever be capable of wanting peace.

[anotojefiremnesuka]

39. No and the US and its allies should also support regime change and economic sanctions against

Last edited Wed Mar 18, 2015, 06:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Israel.

Israel has been NOTHING but a bully in the region for decades now and I am to the point now of providing US arms and training to ALL of Israel neighbors.

[Skidmore]

40. No, especially since he doesn't support a two state solution.

[leftynyc]

41. This is nothing but

mental masturbation. Do you feel better? I hope so because what you want is never going to happen.

[Ken Burch]

45. It's not mental masturbation. It's a legitimate question.

I admit that AIPAC probably won't let it happen(btw, would you agree with me that they should change their name to ALPAC-The American Likud Political Action Committee-since AIPAC only represents and supports the views of the Israeli right wing?)

You can't deny it will be a tragedy if Netanyahu stays on as prime minister, since he has nothing positive to offer and no solutions to any problem other than to kill other people.

[leftynyc]

46. I detest bibi

and think Israel has hurt itself badly with this election - I don't see bibi doing anything for their economy which is becoming disgustingly like our own in terms of the haves and have nots even while they embrace socialism. You seem to forget that Herzog also supported the gaza war last year so I'm not sure what his winning would have brought. If you took a poll of Americans right this second, your position would lose handily. I know it's not a popular position around here but Americans - by large margins - support Israel - no matter who is in charge. They have very good luck with their enemies.

[Ken Burch]

48. Herzog was only slightly better-Herzog as a person, though, wasn't the point.

Meretz(the peace party)would have been in his coalition, and the Joint List(Israeli Arab parties)would have had an influence. Now it's going to be government of, by, and for the zealots and the inflexible.

It just feels like all hope permanently died in the I/P situation tonight, and that Netanyahu will now be in office for at least another decade-if he is replaced by a more progressive government that much later, will it be worth anything that that happens?

And what hope is there now that they've apparently just re-elected a man who promised that a Palestinian state will never happen? How can there ever possibly be peace without Palestinian self-determination being recognized(it goes without saying that it isn't possible for either side, Palestinian OR Israeli, to score a decisive military victory, and that neither side would show any magnanimity to the other if they somehow did). It's going to become a real question whether an Israel that is keeping itself in a permanent war by refusing to stop oppressing another people can possibly be a safe haven or a real homeland for those Israel purports to represent, though.

(On another note, I'm a bit puzzled that you describe Israel as a country that is "embrac(ing) socialism". The state has social democratic roots, but it's just become more and more and more right-wing capitalist since the dawn of the Likud Ascendancy in 1977. Hardly anything of the social values of Ben-Gurion or Golda Meir survives at all. And the political left seems weaker than ever(even with an assist from Livni's core voters, Herzog's list, whose program is the most watered-down form of social democracy possible, only took about 20% of the vote. Meretz only took about 4%, and the Hadash(non-zionist left)component of the Arab list probably only amounted to about 4% to 5% as well).

[leftynyc]

50. There are still very

stable social nets for Israelis. Yes - there are more poor but they will never not have a place to live or food to eat or ever have to worry about healthcare. Your post is making it like bibi is going to be PM for life - that's not going to happen. I'm hopeful (because according to my dad - may he rest in peace - I'm pathologically optimistic) that because it comes from bibi and likud, there will ultimately be a 2 state solution. I know what he said - I also know that Nixon who hated China, was the only one who could open it up to the US. Weirder things have happened and like I said, the US will never turn its back on Israel - not while it's in the neighborhood its in.

[mylye2222]

47. Yes. And not only stopping $$ aid.

US shiould also cut ties with AIPAC and stop protect Israel war criminals befire the UN.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. Shouldn't, but will. N.T.

[B Calm]

51. I think they sucked off our teat long enough!

But, I would have thought that regardless of who won their election!

[Angleae]

54. If we stop aid to Israel, they'll just get it from someone else.

I can think of a couple of rather large countries that would pay out the nose for access to israeli military technology.

[Marrah_G]

56. No, but we will

Much like Saudi, there is nothing they can do that would cause us to stop being their bff.

[chemenger]

57. Do we have a choice?

The United States has been keeping Israel afloat for decades. Total annual cost to US taxpayers is approximately $135 billion. That is approximately $427 from each and every US citizen (taxpayer and non-taxpayer alike). If that $135 billion were distributed to each and every Israeli citizen they would around $16,700.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes.

Just think what that money could do here if kept here in the states.

Health care in Israel is universal and participation in a medical insurance plan is compulsory. All Israeli citizens are entitled to basic health care as a fundamental right. Based on legislation passed in the 1990s, citizens join one of four health care funds for basic treatment but can increase medical coverage by purchasing supplementary health care.

Gee maybe it would pay for universal healthcare here in the Unites States.

[Bettie]

58. Shut it all down

No more. Period. No more money, no more military hardware, nothing.

[treestar]

60. Only if we have an interest in it that helps us

Which may be why we do it. It seems to be a perception of most of our leaders that it's in our best interests. Not sure why.

[magical thyme]

61. we should have stopped providing aid long ago...

when they started violating international law, or at least from the moment they first thumbed their noses at us.

[betterdemsonly]

62. Aid should be contingent on moves toward two states not just Netenyahu leaving office.

The truth is center-rightist parties talk nicer, but they have expanded the settlements too. That is why I can't claim to be disappointed with this loss. At leat Netenyahu is honest about what Israel's policy toward two states actually is. I think this zionist union party would have just been window dressing.