When every single Republican is anti-union, why are so many DUers anti-union too?

[Omaha Steve]

Shouldn't that alone tell you something?

I'd really like to know.

OS

[antigop]

1. I'd like to know, too. nt

[Scuba]

58. Simple, right-wingers have joined the Democratic Party at the highest levels, not even weakening ...

... their own brand while totally corrupting ours. They did this by sponsoring candidates to run as Democrats despite the fact those individuals were typical moderate Republicans - fiscal conservatives with a hint of social liberalism.

After being in our domain long enough, some have even evolved on issues like, for example, gay marriage. But their pro-war, pro-Wall Street tenets remain untouched.

[blkmusclmachine]

75. Just like Charlie Crist.

[Scuba]

76. And DWS.

[donnasgirl]

80. Just like Mario Cuomo

And Rahm Emanuel.

[KamaAina]

90. Mario Cuomo?

I know Andrew is, but Mario?

[donnasgirl]

91. My Apology

Andrew

[brush]

96. You mean Andrew Cuomo.

His father Mario was a staunch liberal dem.

[The Green Manalishi]

104. Born a wobblie

Last edited Wed Mar 18, 2015, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

SEIU member.

The *ONE* place where I think *some* unions are doing much more harm than good are the police unions which seem to believe that no cop, ever, anywhere can do any wrong.

Sorry, if you're defending someone caught on tape shooting/tazing/beating an unarmed person, particularly one offering little or no resistance, you are a piece of shit and you, and anyone supporting you, should be removed from union leadership. Right. Fucking. THEN.

Some of the police unions are playing right into the tea baggers narratives.

[brooklynite]

2. I'd like to know what you're talking about

Would it hurt to provide examples, rather than "we all know" assertions?

[Omaha Steve]

9. Have you ever visited and posted the Labor Group

How often do you read and comment on pro-labor posts yourself. Do you ever visit the Labor or Soc-Progressive Group? Let's start there.

Or when a great labor story simply dies in the GD Forum.

I've been posting labor stories from day one here over 10 years ago. I think I get some credit for knowing what I'm talking about.

OS

[brooklynite]

14. No, but we're in GD; your audience might be different.

[Omaha Steve]

15. In LBN you made this post

This was LBN, not GD. Is labor not an injury to one globally?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141001573

brooklynite (19,774 posts)
1. Why should the US media cover a story about a 1 day strike over a fight?

There's probably a strike somewhere in Europe every week. Add to that, the RER "A" line parallels the metro, so at worst commuters had a more crowded trip.

[brooklynite]

19. How is this reflective of being "anti-Union" at DU?

I'm responding to whether something is nationally newsworthy.

And my position stands. You asked a question based on no provided evidence, and then suggested that the evidence was in a alternative forum.

[7962]

73. Apparently its "all or nothing" sometimes. I get ragged on it as well. nt

[Nye Bevan]

16. There's only one thread on the front page of the Labor Group with more than 2 replies

and I don't see anyone spouting anti-union rhetoric in it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11176387

Am I missing something?

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

32. yes

[BrotherIvan]

82. +1

[marym625]

161. I didn't know that groups had a front page

When I just look at a group I thought what came up was just the most recent posts. So it's really a internal greatest page?

[Sherman A1]

3. It does seem that way

Sometimes.

[Dragonfli]

137. There appears to be an especially anti teacher union vibe here since a basketball player

that knows a guy that got him a job started attacking teachers unions and pushing non union charter shops.

He must be a hell of a ball player because he does not appear to have any degrees in education.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. There are two obvious responses.

1) Most Republicans are anti-crucifixion.
2) Very few DUers are anti-union.

[Romeo.lima333]

5. id like to know why theyre against unions

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Being anti-some unions or...

anti- some union positions or tactics doesn't mean anti-union.

There are, for instance, a lot of union jobs in mining, oil production, construction and other fields which conflict with economic or environmental positions some DUers may have.

[ErikJ]

12. +1. Auto unions too

They have fought against higher gas mileage requirements forever. And if you go to a union worker parking lot youll find mostly gas guzzlers.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

35. Here is a good example...BTW, I didnt know union workers all drove gas guzzlers...

Could you please link to a credible source that says auto union workers, I assume you mean, fight against vehicles with better mileage.

Then, be careful not to confuse cars with better mileage to wanting cars built here instead of other countries where mileage standards my be higher, there is an ocean of difference.

[ErikJ]

57. UAW has always opposed higher CAFE standards but recently not

I used to closely follow the SUV craze/higher CAFE debate and the UAW was against higher CAFe standards. But this article shows they now support them since 2011.

............'The United Auto Workers, a union that for years echoed the car companies' assertions that significant increases in fuel efficiency would destroy jobs, now backs the manufacture of fuel-efficient vehicles as a way to keep factories open.

"President Obama saved the auto industry; he doesn't want to jeopardize that," UAW President Bob King said. "To direct this kind of criticism at the administration after what they've done is irresponsible."............

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-07-20/business/sc-biz-0720-fuel-economy-20110720_1_fuel-efficiency-sales-of-fuel-efficient-vehicles-electric-vehicle-mandate

article from 2002
Higher CAFE standards riles UAW
http://www.uaw-chrysler.com/uaw_new/cafe-concerns-deepen/

I see a longshore union lot often when I drive by and yes its full of F-150's and Suburbans.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

60. Longshoremen driving gas guzzlers and an auto union being against those standards because

of jobs all means NOTHING



The worst thing you can say about a union is they opposed a long term good for the benefit of their employees, if that is the worst thing they did, then as much as I disagree with them doing it, they are still TEN MILLION TIMES more valuable than non union.

AMAZING how some folks can find the ONE thing over 75 years to point to so they can keep the conversation going about why unions arent always great.


Steve Omaha, your point is proven

[ErikJ]

70. It doesnt mean I'm against unions, which give democracy and equity in the workplace.

but my first priority is to the environment. Anybody or thing that opposes environmentalism is an enemy of mine. I'm a registered Green Party member. Without a clean sustainable environment, ya got nothing.
The steel and pipeworkers unions are for the XL Pipeline too. This is hardly insignificant as you are implying.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

101. You can balance the issue, the 999 times out of 1000 where there isnt an environmental

connection you support the union.

The one time out of a thousand where there is, you oppose them internally while supporting the structure of the union.

I am with you on the environment.

[Go Vols]

118. The President of The United Steelworkers is against pipeline

Gerard has applauded Obama’s decision instead of criticizing it. Gerard’s opposition to the pipeline makes no sense given how many USW members work in U.S. refineries that could manufacture gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel, home heating oil, asphalt and other essential products from the oil that the Keystone XL pipeline would transport.

While refinery workers affiliated with the United Steelworkers held demonstrations in Washington Feb. 15 to protest the closure of two Pennsylvania refineries, their union’s leader, Leo Gerard, continued to express his support for policies that might lead more refineries to cut back operations or shut down — costing even more of his own members their jobs.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/28/the-united-steelworkers-an-anti-worker-union/

He's on MSNBC right now

Where do you get your info?

[Omaha Steve]

132. USW President Leo Gerard Talks "Good Jobs, Green Jobs"

[Go Vols]

133. need more like him

[sulphurdunn]

92. I remember when

the fight in the Pacific NW was going on about spotted owls and the over cutting of old growth timber for export. The ILWU opposed restrictions on logging and log exports. I was working the Seattle docks then as a casual. My father had just retired after 40 years. He was always complaining about the union. I opposed the union bitterly on the logging issue. All of our bitching was internal and never public. No one ever questioned our dedication to the union or to labor solidarity because of it.

[B Calm]

153. I drove a VW Beetle when I worked at GM. .

[Major Nikon]

122. Believe it or not, it's possible to be against those industries without being against those workers

[upaloopa]

7. What are these DUers saying?

Being a union member I have lately felt good about the support I see on DU for labor unions.
I have seen lately:
Support for public sector union workers
Post against right to work legislation
Posts stating that organization of workers is a necessity to fight income inequity.

Yes I have been heartened by the union support I see on DU.

[BrotherIvan]

84. In education threads, there is a lot of anti-teacher sentiment

I think some people had a teacher they didn't like at one time and so now they're all for busting the teacher's union because it means "the bad ones can't get fired." And our Democratic President doesn't seem to like them much either.

[upaloopa]

94. So because of bad ones we need to screw

over everybody. That is not an enlightened opinion and DUers claim to be smarter than repubs

[Smarmie Doofus]

126. Has he ( Obama) ever even MET any?

>>> And our Democratic President doesn't seem to like them much either.>>>>>

He and his family have spent a lifetime of studiously avoiding contact w. US public schools.

When he came back from Indonesia he enrolled in Punahou, ( jumped the wait-list line thru grampa's connections; it's in Dreams From My Father) fancy exclusive Honolulu preserve of the wealthy and privileged. That took him thru HS.

The kids went to Chicago Lab ( private, preppie, big $$$) during Barack's stint in Chicago and they do Sidwell Friends in DC now.

No wonder Duncan looks to Obama like a good Sec of Ed. He's just as clueless.

[pintobean]

8. Rec #5. I'd like to know.

[Agnosticsherbet]

10. More than a century of right propaganda against unions has born fruit. If they tell a lie

enough times, people will eventually believe it is true.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

37. It is deep in the psyche of all Americans, ask anyone what they think of unions you might as

well ask them what they think of rapists.

It is that bad

[Hekate]

113. Ronald Reagan broke the back of the unions, I think.

[Major Nikon]

125. Saint Ronnie broke the back of one union

That one union also endorsed him in the election.

Anti-union sentiment (much like what you occasionally see on DU), broke the back of most other unions.

[Hekate]

127. First rock in the avalanche, or something like that

[Major Nikon]

129. The avalanche had already started

The so-called "right-to-work" movement started in the late 30's and early 40's as a racist response to black people organizing.

[hunter]

11. The anti-union kool aide flows freely through our mass media...

... and places of employment.

It's a kind of brainwashing, and a worker vs. worker battle subtly staged by the owners of this economy to distract employees from the abuses of their employers.

[jwirr]

36. Anyone who has ever worked to unionize their own workplace has been through the propaganda

put out by the owners.

I also think that most of us living today have never known a time when there was no union so we do not realize the changes in our world that unions helped bring about. I lived in a highrise for a while and talked with a lot of workers who fought for the unions in the beginning. I interviewed them for the historical society. I think we might have to go to China to see the conditions that existed back then.

Also I know that many churches are anti-union. I think it is based on the same theology as the Calvinist ideas about helping the poor. I have often suggested that the preachers who preach that should get the same wages as their church members who are on minimum wage. They should also not get the free housing, healthcare, and a new car every year that is a practice in many churches.

[Skittles]

13. because propaganda works on more than just idiots

[randr]

17. Very important to acknowledge this

We are all subject to influences that verify our core beliefs.

[cali]

20. why are you assuming that the claim in the OP is true? I have seen NOTHING on Du

that indicates that "many duers are anti-union. To the contrary, I've seen overwhelming union support here.

[Blue_Tires]

114. +1000

Ask my dad or granddad back in the day about unions, and the first word out of their mouths would be "mafia"

[cali]

18. why don't you post a poll then? Find out. I see massive support for unions on DU

[srican69]

21. I am anti public sector unions .. they have a very cushy life and get great benefits that rest of us

do not. I see MTA workers in NYC who do nothing but scratch their ass all day. Why the bloody hell do we need so many conductors on trains ? It raises the cost for all of us. Railways, Utilities - you name it.

My neighbor was hired as contractor to handle some surge work for a utility company. He was so productive that he got threatened in the locker room by some union folks who felt that he was taking away union jobs and that his output would be used against them in negotiations. He had to slow down purposely to keep them happy.

[cali]

22. ugh. Yes, right. your little anecdotal stories are just sooo convincing.

[Omaha Steve]

24. THANK YOU!!!

An honest reply.

OS

[SoLeftIAmRight]

27. and what is wrong with that?

just asking...

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

38. So instead of wanting everyone to have what they have, a race to the top, you want them and

everybody else to have less, or as it is called "race to the bottom"

You need to rethink your position.

[Go Vols]

43. +1

[abelenkpe]

83. +1000

Never have understood that

[Orsino]

86. Big Money divides and conquers.

Seems it's winning.

[Starry Messenger]

46. Oh boy, those teachers. Just rolling in it.

[srican69]

51. Teachers get fucked ..Big time .. I even doubt they will be much worse off without the Union

If schools were funded by state rather than local taxes - you wouldn't see this.

Football coaches seem to do just fine ..

Tells you more about our priorities as a society more than anything about unions

[Starry Messenger]

54. They are much worse off without the union.

In my state, a union part-time adjunct can make over 150% more than a non-union one. And that's just college.

Without a union, teachers can be let go for being gay or having left-wing opinions. Or for anything.

[srican69]

59. I just think teachers should be employees of the state rather than local school dist

Rich communities will protest .. but so be it

[Gidney N Cloyd]

160. Giving the Scott Walkers, Bruce Rauners, et al an easier path to squeezing teachers directly.

[AwakeAtLast]

67. Without a teacher's union

We would be paid minimum wage and punch a time clock.

And still be expected to raise test scores.

[alarimer]

64. Bullshit

This has been debunked time and again. Public worker pay is LESS than that of private sector workers, except for those who have less than a college degree. As the education level rises, the gap widens.

All of those studies that purport to say otherwise are comparing apples to oranges. They usually include workers in the private sector who have no equivalent in the public sector (part-time fast food workers, for example). The newspaper articles screaming this fail to control for many factors.

Now the pension thing seems like it is true, but only because the private sector has been eliminating pensions right and left. It's been a bloodbath and people SHOULD be upset by that. But not to the point where they are tearing others down.

Here's an article that lays it out better than I can:

http://www.epi.org/publication/debunking_the_myth_of_the_overcompensated_public_employee/

The data analyses in this paper, however, indicate that public employees, both state and local government, are not overpaid. Comparisons controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, and disability, reveal no significant overpayment but a slight undercompensation of public employees when compared with private employee compensation costs on a per hour basis. On average, full-time state and local employees are undercompensated by 3.7%, in comparison with otherwise similar private-sector workers. The public employee compensation penalty is smaller for local government employees (1.8%) than for state government workers (7.6%).

[turbinetree]

81. Comment

When a individual comes on here gives this rant, it has to be asked :
##0 do you have union representation
#1 do you work forty hours a week
#2 do you have paid sick days
#3 do you have vacation days
#4 do you get a paid leave of absence days like with FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act)
#5 do you believe in the 50+1 majority rule for representation
#6 do you have work place discrimination
#7 do you have paid health care benefits like the 80/20 rule (80% company paid and 20% paid by you)
#7 should I add anything to the list
If you answered yes to any or all of these questions it was because of a UNION

[srican69]

97. Clarification - I am 100% for a union in for-profit entities and against them in non-profits

I am also against big salaries for top honchos everywhere ( should be restricted to 5x of median Salary instead of the current 500x)

I am for Union representation in the board of directors like it is in Germany.

My opposition to Unions in govt organizations is that no one is trying to squeeze them dry -- and without any natural adversaries they grow too powerful and comfortable.

NJ cops negotiate rules and go about gaming them.. They pull in big pensions ( 6 figures) by age 50 , mostly by racking up overtime in the last couple years of employment .... You should see them .. sitting in a car all day next to pipe/road repair with their police car lights on , when all that is needed is a orange warning sign.. There is major fucking abuse .. which I pay for through my taxes.

[TygrBright]

111. So.... nonprofit employees don't need protections against labor exploitation?

I am old enough to remember what it was like working for the County before AFSCME.

It was possible to sleep or bribe your way to promotion; some did. And some who weren't "pretty enough" or got "too old" were fired from secretarial jobs or demoted to mailrooms, because, hey, being decorative for the public was a BFOQ.

There were no public pensions until/unless you worked more than twenty years for the same governmental unit in the same job classification, social security was supposed to be enough for anyone. And your savings. Of course, you had to factor in, back then, that your "savings" would very likely be based on a wage pretty close to what you started at, because there were no rules at all about having to give you a cost of living increase, review your performance and give you a raise based on how much better you were at the job having done it for a few years than when you came in off the street. And for many of those "cushy government jobs," that was minimum wage: A buck-sixty an hour.

Supposing, like a colleague of mine, you'd been hired as a Unit Secretary, but because the Unit Administrator was "off sick" most of the time (funny, she just *happened* to be the sister-in-law of a County Commissioner, so she was never disciplined or fired for being gone more than she was there,) you were doing most of her job, too. And then, when another Unit Administrator position fell vacant, you wanted to apply for that job?

But by the time you got your application in, the position was already filled, by a reception clerk from Road Maintenance who hadn't Clue One about the work of a County Benefits unit? Well, tough noogies for you, toots. Complain TOO much and your boss is likely to start leaning on you, with extra assignments, nitpicking your day-to-day tasks, claiming you took long lunches even though you ate at your desk, and generally letting you know that you'd better shut up or either be fired or transferred to the Building Inspection department where they needed someone to take phone messages?

And godz of all denominations help you if, in your work as a Child Protection Worker, you filed a formal complaint against a judge who kept remanding horrifically abused children back to their abusers because "it's better for them to work things out in the family home." I won't even begin to describe the world of hurt that would descend on you, without a union at your back to require due process in your extended bureaucratic evisceration.

C'mere, let me whisper a little secret in your ear-- something no one wants a sweet, kind-hearted, well-intentioned person like you to know: "Nonprofit organizations and government entities abuse their employees, too."

tiredly,
Bright

[Hekate]

115. +1,000 TygrBright

[srican69]

123. thanks for your detailed response

[Stellar]

151. Well said! n/t

[turbinetree]

116. Response

Whenever I go to Hawaii and see a cop next to work site on the road, or the wherever, I was told that it was done for liability reasons and its a state law.
When I travel down to the shore and see a cop pulled over in the state I am traveling through I am and was told it was safety issue.
There are laws from which construction vehicles come on and off the road, and some person standing on the road with a sign in the middle of the night is not going to be seen and they will be hit.
It is not a racket, a racket is when when you have banks ripping off the public to the tune of 850 billion dollars and we have to pick up the tab to keep the country going, that is a racket, and we have to pay for it with our collective taxes---we got no breaks in this last scam and when the next one comes watch out, because the public is going to be more than upset.
I have been a life long union member and they try to look at for there best interests for the employee and the company and when something goes wrong they are placed on the proverbial chopping block as the problem, they are not.
It takes two individuals to have an agreement, it takes one to break it

[srican69]

99. I can post any number of articles to back my claim .. but here are a couple

http://watchdog.org/5976/nj-100k-club/

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/03/ex-nj_firefighter_collected_disability_pension_whi.html

the LIRR disability racket is ofcourse legendary ..

[Agnosticsherbet]

117. The fact that a few people take advantage of the system is not proof they all do.

It is unacceptable to punish everyone for what the crimes of a few.

[RedstDem]

103. troll

hit on many of the old chestnuts...

union intimidation to someone working "too hard"...lol
unions raising the price of blah blah blah
cushy union job...lol

for dogs sake, educate yourself a little.

but on the bright side, at least you have something in common with your right wing buddies

[JaneyVee]

110. Yeah ok. Cool story bro.

[Hekate]

112. You mean a living wage, OSHA standards, health & retirement benefits? Why shouldn't every worker...

...have it that "cushy"? Why do you want to pull everyone down into misery?

I worked for my local County Public Works for a couple of years, and can tell you that from the dump workers to the clerks to the engineers, I saw very few indeed that fit your stereotype. Well, there was one clerk. One. Clerk. More often, if you talked to people even a little while you saw they all had some notion of what it meant to be a public servant, to make things better for the community, to be proud of their work even in the face of budget cuts.

Many people seek out public sector jobs in hopes of security for their families rather than riches. Engineers and other professionals could conceivably make more money in the private sector in the short term -- at greater risk of never having a retirement plan some day. At a lower level, it becomes even more important.

My whole life I've benefitted from unions one way and another. During my own work life I was excluded as being a "confidential" employee (i.e. the boss's secretary sees all, knows all) but I certainly felt the results of other people's negotiations. My father was a union man during the 44 years he worked at Lockheed Aircraft, my first husband was in the Hotel and Restaurant Worker's Union (my giving birth at Kaiser Hospital cost us under $100, thank you), and my second and final husband was in the statewide Faculty Association, which is most definitely a union.

If you have questions about what certain public sector jobs entail -- the visible ones that cause you so much resentment, especially -- that information is readily available to you. These days it's all online.

[TBF]

131. Is that the fault of the union or the owners -

and why would you put down other workers? It would seem to me that you'd like to rise to their level rather than bring them down to yours.

[Oilwellian]

134. Never thought I'd see the day

When Americans are jealous of teachers/firefighters/cops salaries. How very fucking pathetic.

[appalachiablue]

144. +1

[JonLP24]

140. Raises the cost?

It isn't wages that raises the cost but consumers. Price hikes wouldn't work if less people paid for it -- supply & demand economics 101.

What does the private sector have to do to compete with employees in the public sector? Offer better wages & benefits, unions are good for all of us.

[gollygee]

157. You've got to be kidding

You make assumptions about what the job entails, but you don't know. And I don't believe your second story at all.

[Logical]

23. Should I be mad that my BIL loves his non-union job at Honda? nt

[upaloopa]

33. Many non American companies treat workers better

than a similar American company would. My wife works for a German company and is treated well. But for the most part non union workers get poor treatment lower wages and poor benefits and working conditions. If we are to do something about income inequality we need to organize those workers. Your BIL is the exception not the rule.

[bullwinkle428]

45. I can confirm this (at least on an anecdotal level). The work I do is not a position

that one might find unionized whether the company in question is American-owned or not, but the fact the corporation is based in a country with a thriving middle class probably contributes to their attitude regarding treatment of its workers.

[upaloopa]

50. I learned this in college

In our country corporations follow the shareholders wealth maximization model.
In other countries corporations follow the stakeholders wealth maximization model. Stakeholders are the owners the community and the workers.

[Hoyt]

128. If we could only adopt that philosophy. Way too much interest on short-term profits nowadays.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

39. You should be mad at Walmart and Target and a few hundred other companies

that treat their employees like shit and want them all to be in unions so they can be paid enough to live on.

[betterdemsonly]

25. dlc-new democrat-third way strategy

They want to pick up moderate republicans that don't like the religious right, then they want to marginalize traditional democrats. They have been largely successful. These former republicans maintain conservative economic views.

Their second goal is to get corporate donations. Their interests conflict with those of traditional labor and working class people. Many people who post here are party bosses.

You are right about this. I remember someone who was critical of the labor record Amazon's Jeff Bezos, and they were run off the GD by Mirt people. That is all about fundraising. They were flamed and insulted and when they fought back the Mirt bullies reported on his posts. I assume he lost postng privileges for a while or was banned.

I also think the Southern type dem was traditionally antiuion because that is the way their states create jobs. Mostly by taking union factories from pro-union states and opening them as anti-union.

[ananda]

26. Hmm...

In a way, unions have a bad rep for certain practices and corruption.

I believe this has been true for a few unions, and probably still is.

But... I think most unions are OK and that a union is a must in
order to force sociopathic owners to do right by their workers.

For many people, it's too easy to conflate the bad practices of a few
with that of the many.

That's true in so many situations, not just unions.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

41. I will take ANY corruption in ANY Union over what the Walton family does to America

But you are right, unions are not perfect and are run by imperfect human beings.

The worst one is ten million times better than none.

[Maedhros]

28. They are not traditional Democrats - they're New Democrats.

New Democrats are not interested in working class/labor issues.

[antigop]

109. BINGO! nt

[99Forever]

29. Because they are like crabs in a bucket.

If they can't escape from the bucket, they'll pull everyone down with them. They actually buy the corporate bullshit they've been fed all of the lives.

[freshwest]

30. I know you're busy, but I keep on seeing this anti-union complaint. What do you mean?

I work with a group of people that are composed of public workers, the union that represents them, and others and we don't support RTW, naturally.

They also put up with working conditions that private workers refuse to endure, no holidays, assaults by clients, at times very trying jobs that people don't want to do. Many of them are overeducated for the work, but they manage to humble themselves to do it. They are a major part of our lives where I live.

What brand of DUer or philosophy here at DU does not support unions?

[still_one]

31. I didn't realize that DUers were anti-union. Progressives have traditional been on the side of

unions and labor so I am not sure if that assessment is correct

[Iggo]

34. "So many"?

That alone tells me nothing.

[Omaha Steve]

40. And the last time you made a pro labor or worker post was?

Tell me!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

42. We have seen anti union posts on this thread. But you have to forgive them to some extent

they are literally brainwashed.

It is not meant to be an insult, what I am saying.

I am saying it is a serious problem.

Every 98%er in America should LOVE unions, if they were not brainwashed, etc.

[Iggo]

55. Point me to the anti labor posters.

Don't name them. Just point me at them.

You're telling me it's a problem, but I don't see it. Show me, so I can see it.

[Omaha Steve]

62. U mean like when only 3% of DUers comment on a strike story?

[valerief]

44. An anti-union DUer is an anti-DUer. nt

[juxtaposed]

47. how many are so many? 70%, 40%, 18%, or .3%. I'm not sure what your'e fishing for

[Proud Public Servant]

48. Well, that's easy

Being pro-union is the Democratic way.

Being anti-union is the GOP way.

But there's a Third Way...

[Starry Messenger]

49. Too bad we're not allowed to call them out.

They are a small but vocal crew. I predict they'll avoid this thread.

I can only surmise that some Dems vote only their wallet and have no interest in the common welfare of the rest of society.

[Kingofalldems]

63. You are correct.

[PowerToThePeople]

120. i had a response in a thread

That was exactly this. On DU. Poster only voted for their wallet. Why the fuck does that not result in insta-ban?

Btw, I am a Union member currently. Very pro-union.

[Starry Messenger]

138. Nice to run into you, PowerToThePeople!

I'm a rep for my union, and do organizing work for them too.

I don't get why someone who only votes for themselves would feel the need to post on a political board either--what are they agitating for? Expanding selfishness? That's not usually a group activity.

[BubbaFett]

52. Because

our owners will spare no expense to keep us in line.

[tridim]

53. What do they say when you ask them?

I haven't seen much of any anti-union sentiment on DU, so I haven't been able to ask.

[Smarmie Doofus]

56. I criticize my OWN union because it's basically corrupt. But....

...it's corrupt because it's not behaving like a *UNION*. It is behaving like an appendage of the employer.

That's not anti-unionism ( i.e. on my part.) It IS on THEIR part.

[namastea42]

61. I'd like to know too.

There has been some really strange stuff here for a democratic board. In the last week or so I have seen defense of Monsanto, anti-union stuff and pro-big Pharma and the shredding apart of people that do not trust big Pharma whole heartedly on vaccines. It's okay to have questions, it's not okay to rip people apart and call them anti-vaccers like they were pariahs, questions are okay aren't they??. And any mention of secret crimes of the Bush family prior to or during 911 is scoffed at and likely hidden or locked. And most things regarded as average democratic values now are called Extremist and Fringe Left.

And there are No Conspiracies, everything is done in the light of day and if you think awful things are planned in secret you are a wacko tin foiler.

[Go Vols]

65. The UAW Made The Middle-Class

Sure, this is a bold claim. Yet it's hard to dispute that the UAW had a greater hand than any other single institution in the creation of what we know as the American middle class. Harold Meyerson wrote a terrific column last week on this very topic:

In its glory days, under the leadership of Walter Reuther, the UAW was the most farsighted institution -- not just the most farsighted union -- in America. "We are the architects of America's future," Reuther told the delegates at the union's 1947 convention, where his supporters won control of what was already the nation's leading union.

Even before he became UAW president, Reuther and a team of brilliant lieutenants would drive the Big Three's top executives crazy by producing a steady stream of proposals for management. In the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor, Reuther, then head of the union's General Motors division, came up with a detailed plan for converting auto plants to defense factories more quickly than the industry's leaders did. At the end of the war, he led a strike at GM with a set of demands that included putting union and public representatives on GM's board.

That proved to be a bridge too far. Instead, by the early 1950s, the UAW had secured a number of contractual innovations -- annual cost-of-living adjustments, for instance -- that set a pattern for the rest of American industry and created the broadly shared prosperity enjoyed by the nation in the 30 years after World War II.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/21/675734/-What-the-UAW-Made

[AwakeAtLast]

66. Proud member of a Classroom Teacher's Associaton here

And I serve on our PAC Committee.

Wish I could answer your question.

[kimbutgar]

68. I always ask this question of anti Union people

Why can corporations have lobbyists work for them but workers can't have anyone representing them in the workplace. They get real silent and I see their brains spinning looking for a talking point to rebut me but they have no answer.

I remember a movie I saw years ago called The Pajama Game will Doris Day. It was kind of hokey but showed me why unions are important. It took me until last year to join a union and I felt proud and not upset to pay dues.

Unions are the working person's lobbyists.

[msanthrope]

69. I'm not anti-union....but teachers and cops unions have to police their own better.

Frankly it's a f****** shame that animals like Darrin Wilson have a union.

[7962]

71. I'm only "anti-the union I used to be in". But not anti-Union

Where I used to work the union ruined pretty much everything and the national office rarely responded to our complaints. And we ended up getting worse pay raises because of their incompetence than we were getting BEFORE we voted in the union.
Luckily I was able to get a better job and move on.
But all this was 20+ yrs ago, too. Guess i hold a grudge for awhile!

[maindawg]

72. American have a streak of independence in them

Regardless of the circumstance they find that life leads them to, as an American we have this wild streak.
We want something else, something more. We expect it. We all grow up believing that we are all special.
Why should we have to join a group? It takes a certain degree of maturity to get past the spoiled brat syndrome ,past the propaganda that we have been fed since birth by our family, the TV and our teachers.

[Go Vols]

79. :/

This,and others like it,is what I saw on TV way back, regularly.

[blkmusclmachine]

74. "Big Tent."

[INdemo]

77. I know union members that are Republican and this is what I said to thme once

"As a union member you want the best possible wage and benefit package that our union officials negotiate for us Right?
Answer yes. So why in the hell do you take the union wages and benefits and then on election day step into the voting booth and vote for the guy that wants to take all of that away from you? No response and no answers except for one person and their reply was " grew up in a Republican household and always voted for Republicans and my Dad was non union.

I believe that is the situation today and these kids are taught the Republican propaganda and they strat dirnking to Right wing cool air at a very young age and never become completely bottle broke

But I cant figure our why a DU member would be non-union unless they are a Republican lite

[LibDemAlways]

78. Some of the most anti union people I know are

Republicans who belong to unions. A retired airline pilot collecting a generous pension. A retired (at 40 something) policeman receiving a generous pension. A pyrotechnics guy who worked in the movie industry for years and has generous pension benefits. A college instructor who heads her union. Every one of them hates all other unions except their own. Go figure.

[Codeine]

85. It's only certain unions.

The most vociferous pro-teachers'-union posters all seem to drive Hondas. . .

[Starry Messenger]

139. I drive a Ford Ranger. Just for the record.

[randome]

87. Group think works to everyone's disadvantage.

Corporations push the envelope and sometimes unions do, too. If both sides are loudly proclaiming, "My side is never wrong!" then people tend to tune out.

I'm always in favor of unions, though. I just wish that when groups of people band together for a common purpose, they don't leave common sense at the door.

The NYC police union comes to mind.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[BlueCaliDem]

88. I've only become anti-police unions. Otherwise, I am pro-union. eom

[guillaumeb]

89. Thanks Omaha Steve

I read your posts and like them a lot. We need more union news here. I fact, here is some good news right here!

Consumer Reports had a recent article about delivery services. See the link for the full article:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/12/shipping-comparison-fedex-vs-ups-vs-us-postal-service/index.htm

Basically, the largest UNIONIZED government agency, the USPS, outperforms the private companies that are the competition. UPS is union, but Fed-Ex is not.

I did see a recent article about the Post Office, actually posted by you I believe, and nearly every response was favorable.

Also really like the knowledge of labor history exhibited by the many contributors here.

A retired, 40 year union member. Able to retire because of union negotiated benefits and wages.

[Chakaconcarne]

93. I don't go much further than the main page....

I don't go to the forums and I'm guessing many others do the same and I've never gotten that impression.

[daredtowork]

95. "Leveraged Buyout" of Dem platform by Third Way

Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:40 AM - Edit history (1)

As the Party Machine kept trying to"triangulate" toward the Mythical Middle during and after the Clinton era, they kept re-defining new groups as the "Angry Left" to be marginalized and excluded.

First the Angry Left were the radicals who might alienate the Mythical Middle by vandalizing property or holding inconvenient noisy protests. Once there was a consensus that the Mythical Middle would shun such troublemakers, the Angry Left became the socialist Democrats. These socialists advocated for programs that cost the Mythical Middle taxpayer money (even if such ideas could save money in the long run) and they defended those insidious Welfare Queens. Once there was a consensus that the Mythical Middle would chew their own arm off rather than spend money on social programs, the socialist Democrats became the "Loony Left" who had to be excluded because they didn't grok the practicalities of *winning* elections.

With the radical and socialist Left disposed of, the next up to bat (in terms of inimicability to the Third Way/New Dem platform and their triangulation of the Mythical Middle) is the Pro-Union Left. This Left is angry because unions have been under siege for years, and there are few powerful unions left. Corporate profiteering at the expense of Labor has also made strikes necessary. These strikes have been hard on the workers who participate in them as well as the "innocent bystanders" of the Mythical Middle who have been inconvenienced by them.

After a long strike it is very easy to posit that the paperpushers of the Mythical Middle bureaucratic/knowledge/professional class can no longer tolerate being inconvenienced by the strikes mounted by those Unions of the Angry Left. Those sound Democrats of the Mythical Middle have to get to work! Not only should Unions be off the platform, the New Dems that represent the Mythical Middle should legislate AGAINST Unions!

After the Pro-Union Angry Left is gone, who will be next? Who will those eminently reasonable projected to be in the Mythical Middle refrain from tolerating next? My bet is the conversation will start to circle around women in the workplace - both of whom can be regarded categorically as competitors when jobs are tight. And we all know no matter what the official numbers say, things are still tough for real people in the real world. It would be only reasonable for the Mythical Middle to unload those Angry Feminists. We can take Time's attempt to ban the tiresome word Feminism as the bellwether for the coming assault.

[MicaelS]

98. I suggest you do a follow up post with a poll.

Should Law Enforcement be allowed to Unionized?

And see what happens.

[ncjustice80]

119. I would love to.see that.

Given my opiniinnon those power trippin, minority murdering, racIst pieces of detritus I can tell you how Id respond >

[MicaelS]

124. You just made my point. n/t

[JohnnyRingo]

100. Many are just misinformed.

I know a number of otherwise good dems who think climate change is a hoax as well.

I believe in both cases that the propaganda money was effectively spent.

[d_legendary1]

102. Bit of a broad brush don't ya think?

I mean most people here are pro teacher union because the teachers are getting screwed by Republicans who want to dumb down our kids. At the same time we can be anti-union since the NYPD police union is protecting dirty cops. We can't always be pro-union.

[Hekate]

105. Steve, it's one of those things that makes you go Hmmmmm.

Best case scenario: Gross ignorance. Possibly educable.

Worst case scenario: Yeah, that.

[rustbeltvoice]

106. bourgeois dilettantism exists

Nearly everyone promotes their economic interests, on occasion this will conflict with another's interest. A union's purpose is to promote their members' interest. Lenin hated trade unions, because he knew they only shared part of his programme. Amongst the liberal bourgeois, and some progressive extremists this holds true too. And some of it is classism.

Because you "do not endorse a,b,c,d,e..." i disapprove you. This all plays well to the moneyed interests when possible opponents are divided.

[KamaAina]

107. Every single Republican is not anti-union which you cannot prove so stop saying that!

I believe there is still one in Michigan who is not.

[Jakes Progress]

108. Koch money bought them.

The century of propaganda has worked on those with little knowledge and/or limited thinking skills.

[ncjustice80]

121. Im 100% pro-union with ONE exception.

Police unions. I cant support a bunch of Darren Wilsons.

[TBF]

130. That is an excellent observation. K&R nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

135. There are two Dem Parties and, thus, two DUs.

It goes back to the VN days.

There's the middle-class, upper middle-class DEMs who trace their ideological lineage to the late sixties.... children of the upper middle class who became enlightened ( and then revolted) over VN. It was bad news. After all, it could get them fucking KILLED. They are college educated, liberal, "artsy" and often Ivy League.
Examples are: Obama, Clinton et al . The corporate DEMS.

Then there are the lower-middle class/working class DEMS. Their unions tended to SUPPORT VN. And recoiled against the privileged middle class opposition. (See above.)

The Ivy Leaguers were RIGHT about VN and the union DEMS wrong. Consequently, the Ivy League DEMs still don't understand unions and the working class. Culturally, they are corporate Republicans.

The union DEMS were wrong about VN; but were, and ARE right... in spite of themselves.... about everything else.

[Dragonfli]

136. there's an app for that! (just kidding but there is an OP that explains it.)

Some DUers are re-branded moderate Republicans, they have their own movement and everything. They are not fond of unions, or entitlements or economics that do not involve trickling on people, but at least they don't care who you sleep with!

The phenomenon explained

[Major Hogwash]

141. I'n not sure why so many of them seem to be anti-union.

It could be because of the corruption of some union leaders in some unions.
And that corruption turns them off of all unions, totally.

[Doctor_J]

142. there are many duers addicted to hate radio and Fox.

The sickness therein can't help but rub off.

[marym625]

143. Have never understood iy

And never will.

Don't hide behind the couch, OS. You're asking a legitimate question.

[Zorra]

145. What is the sound of a question answering itself, Grasshopper?

[donna123]

146. Many Republicans aren't anti-union - police, firemen, NFL

It's funny when people talk about unions and when politicians, Christie, Scott Walker, attack them, they never touch police and firemen, only teachers, and other public jobs.

Let these politicians go after police unions and see how loudly police will scream. There are problems with unions, they can get corrupt and complacent, and protect members who need to be fired, ie see NYTimes story about Rikers correction officers, but we need unions for their original purpose, to protect workers, otherwise even more jobs would be like working at Walmart.

[anotojefiremnesuka]

147. The easiest way to tell if a Democrat or anyone else does or does not support labor is to

look at what they are driving.

If it is a Union built car they are more then likely a friend of Unions and Labor, if it is a NON Union made car they most likely are not a friend of Labor.

It is ones actions that truly matter and purchasing a NON Union made car speaks volumes about that person.

[DonCoquixote]

148. one flaw

The Toyotas and VW's are made by unions too. Before the Volkswagen issue in Tennessee, that may have been moot, but since that forced red state to accept a union, that makes getting a Volkswagen a means of support.

[anotojefiremnesuka]

149. Only a few VW's are union made and those are imported from Germany

the big US selling models are made here and in Mexico. VW TN is not yet unionized.

If I remember correctly only the now closed Toyota plant in California was unionized but closed in 2010.

The Toyota plants in Canada were trying to unionize but the union decided to delay the vote last year.

So yes the Toyota's built in California are OK.

[Orrex]

155. That's only true if they buy a new car.

If they buy from the secondary market, as many people do, then their purchase is no commentary on Unions.

[TheKentuckian]

162. Simplistic as hell. I see plenty of the most anti union folks around driving American

They like caddys, full sized sedans, vans, and big ass trucks it isn't a political statement but a consumer choice.

By the same token folks attracted to smaller cars with high gas efficiency and longevity will have to at least consider a Honda, Toyota, or a Nissan because that type of vehicle is year after year dominated by those labels even if a comparable is available American. I think the Saturns were the only rock solid entry along those lines (and they killed those off), a Focus can be pretty solid but it isn't going to hold up like a Civic.

I think they are getting better but for a long time the smaller cars we're cheaply made and I can say it because I owned them especially Dodges, the neon was garbage, the Omni was a bit of a crapper too, Ford Contour total trash, haven't seen an Aveo on the road in over a year and they aren't even an old label.

This isn't a union issue, they don't design the cars. I've almost always bought American but I can't blame folks who didn't want to have some of the lemons I have over the years.

[Art_from_Ark]

150. I don't know about DUers being anti-union,

but from my experience, a lot of Southern Democrats are not too crazy about unions because the lack of unions is one reason why so many factories relocated to the South-- providing relatively high incomes in places where incomes had traditionally been very low.

Of course, a lot of those non-union factories have now also left the South in search of even cheaper pastures.

[HereSince1628]

158. yes, freedom from unions, sweet tax deals, in some cases free building sites

and of course, the demands of modernizing old facilities, all were things that contributed to "jobs going South" where costs were made enticingly cheaper.

Not surprisingly, the economic impact of those jobs going south was seen as a good thing in the south. And not surprisingly people and politicians looked to mirror that success all over the nation. It was a significant contributor to the rise of the new democrats originally termed the DLC and it continues to run through the changing incarnations of their labels.

Too bad that politics isn't as nimble as the captialists are. If it was we'd be looking at least at one political party organized around principles of defending the domestic economy. Instead we've got political parties organized around values and orientations of the late 1970's and 1980's.

[Demeter]

152. It's a Failure of the Imagination

and the conscience. And intellect.

[sendero]

154. I'm going to weigh in against my better judgment..

.... conceptually, I am of course pro union because workers need SOMEONE on their side and right now unions are just about all there is.

This is going to sound rough so please use your "filter" and try to see what I am getting at here. Unions are at this point losers and nobody likes a loser. They have become more and more irrelevant with every passing year starting from the early 80s, maybe sooner.

Is it all their fault? Probably not, they were sold out by the people who claimed to be on their side (cough, cough I don't have to name them do I?). And no doubt they have made mistakes along the way but so has everyone else.

Unions are a great idea when a substantial percentage of workers are in one, not such a good idea when only a handful are and the rest of the non-union folks see it as basically a perk that they don't have. Few people are supporting a perk that they don't have and have no prospect of ever having. And do you see a nascent pro-union sentiment in this country? Nope.

Also, unions have FAILED at explaining why they are needed, management (i.e. Republicans) have done a much better job of making the case that they are not needed.

That, IMHO is why unions no longer have much public sentiment going for them, and why they continue to fail. I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever, though I would love to be wrong.

[HereSince1628]

156. Because, not surprisingly, DUers include a lot of exceptionalists

People who represent a new wave of democrats--the me-democrats. The "me's" interpret the world in terms of themselves, finding fault and reason to be excepted from things that hint of impositions of social norms, laws, mandates etc., things that revealed the unity that The New Deal and Great Society programs considered foundational to society.

It sounds harsh and judgmental, but it's really only an observation. I don't blame the me's for this. As the rust belt rusted all things associated with it were seen as in decline. Values associated with the rise of other centers of prosperity were seen as good.

The "me's" simply reflect the rising popularity of yeoman values of personal independence embedded within what has long been for Americans a self-image of pioneering yeoman self-sufficiency. Union dues now stand as an encumbrance in opposition to that self-sufficiency just like taxes.

[HockeyMom]

159. SEIU - Florida Special Education Paraprofessional - School tried to deny OT pay

We were Non-Exempt Hourly employees. The school district in order to save money fired all the part time morning Transportation Aides. We were told we would be required to come in an hour earlier to get the kids off the buses in place of those aides. We would receive COMP time for it. What? For five hours every week for the entire school year? Comp time?????

After 40 hours of work per week, we were entitled to OVERTIME, not Comp time. I told the Principal of the school that under the Fair Standards Labor Act we hourly Paras were entitled to Overtime Pay for "bus duties". Besides which, none of this was in our contracts, especially for the Special Needs Paras. The Principal was shocked when I said all of this. I called the Union who said absolutely we would have to paid OT if we worked over 40 hours a week. The Union asked me then if I would spread the word to others about the legalities of this, and try to get more Union membership. The SEIU membership after this incidence went from 60% to 85%. Yes, the school hired back the part time workers instead. They were going to have to pay somebody.

I made just under $15/hour. It was required that we have either an Associates Degree or pass a State Paraprofessional Test. My wages were slightly higher working with the special needs kids and in a Title 1 school which is partially Federally subsidized. Cushy job? Glorified Babysitter? We worked with kids who were LD, ADD, Autistic, Severity, and also ED. The latter included Middle School kids, some of whom had Criminal Records. One boy I worked with tried to stab his Grandma with a kitchen knife when he was 10 years old. Cushy job???? Glorified Babysitter? Make minimum wage? Why? There are no PROFITS being made from this work? No skills required? Money and all those benefits? Excuse me, but our "beloved" Governor Rick Scott only lasted a FEW HOURS in one of these classrooms before he left!!!!!! Plus he still froze the Education Budget, BEFORE he ran for his re-election.

Oh, yeah, the public doesn't have much respect for the teachers, and Paras are the bottom of the barrel.