Quick Question... Why should black people love white people?

[bravenak]

I've seen many people here shocked that a young black woman feels hate towards white people and wonder why anyone is surprised to find a person that feels that way.
So, I'm asking. Since the end of slavery, what have White people done as a group, not individuals - as a group, to make black people , as a group, like them and trust them in America?
Please name specifics of things that we have not fought and died for, thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. I love everybody, even my detractors at this site.

To answer your specific question, isn't it best to treat folks on a individual basis.

[bravenak]

4. It does not happen.

We get treated as a group, always gave. Be nice if we did get treated as individuals. But we don't. Stop and frisk. We were told in 2014 in a blue state, biggest city in the nation that it is perfectly ok to treat black and brown folks as a group that can be searched and harassed. That happens nationwide.

[cali]

8. yes, every white person is exactly the same in how they treat or relate to

black people. and please cite the law you are referring to.

[bravenak]

12. Stop and frisk.

That is a law that was implemented in New York city where the police department had a policy of stopping black and brown males and searching them in their neighborhood, but not implementing the policy in white neighborhoods.
And nobody said every white person was the same except you.

[azmom]

247. SB 1070 here in Arizona and similar anti-immigration

Laws throughout the nation.

[bravenak]

250. Screaming about the 'hordes' coming across the border.

Deporting America citizens.

[azmom]

276. Demanding that we brown people show

Them our papers, just because of our color. Fuck them and fuck racism.

[bravenak]

293. Yep. Sherriff Joe.

[Jenoch]

479. "Stop and Frisk" is not the SOP across the U.S.

and does not happen everywhere.

[bravenak]

481. It happens in many places from Diego to the Bay, from Miami to NY.

Please. Stahp it!

[Jenoch]

489. You are implying that all law enforcement agencies

have this policy. That is not the case. Of course it is wrong, it just does nit happen everywhere.

[bravenak]

490. Most do it whether it is policy or not.

Look at the stop rates of blacks vs white in any major city and many small ones. Like patrollers on a plantation. Hell, the drug war was started with racist intentions and police enforce this racist drug war by stopping mostly blacks even though whites use more drugs and sell more drugs. Look into the history and the stop stats if you do not believe me. We know whats up and are done taking that shit in silence. We live under white supremacy and the police enforce it.

[Jenoch]

496. Again, I'm not denying that it happens,

Ut you seem to be moving the goalposts. The stop and frisk in NYC was widespread and SOP. I do not believe it is the SOP in as many departments as you seem to believe. Have a good night.

[bravenak]

498. It does not matter if it is sop. It should stop since we know it happens.

Since it is known fact, and the cops still do it, it IS defacto policy. Goodnight.

[CreekDog]

514. Wow, talk about damning with faint praise

Well that's just one place with over 8 million people!

You don't even realize how you sound defending that.

[Jenoch]

635. I'm not defending.

I am simply pointing out that not every cop practices stop and frisk like they did in NYC.

Have a good night.

[blm]

29. She is making perfect sense - Has there ever been a policy that authorizes

the stopping of an individual on the basis of that person being white? In the 60s hippies were targeted for stop and frisk in some areas, but, not based on their race.

Stop and frisk was POLICY. DeBlasio ended it in NYC, but, let's stay real about what it meant, and how it remains as unspoken policy in the minds of too many.

I certainly don't want anyone of color directing their hate and fears at me, but, I'm not going to pretend I don't understand it when I read why they say they have them.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

89. Big surprise LOL you did NOT disappoint LOL

I am pretending to laugh, aint nuthin funny about it

[cali]

155. ain't nothing funny about you insinuating that I"m a racist. It's vile and it's a lie.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

202. I dont have to IMPLY anything, your words and attitude are here for all to see

BTW

ALL

ALL

ALL

white americans are racist to one degree or another, myself included

[cali]

238. oh please. don't be so transparent. it's obvious that's what you've done on more

than one occasion.

and I agree that all white americans are racist to some degree, but you have been insinuating something quite different.

It's ugly bullying.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

243. Bullying? Not my intention. Actually I was hoping you would stop for a minute and think

about what others are telling you on the subject and learn.

I had to do that on homosexuality many years ago, didnt hold overtly bad attitudes I just thought and assumed it was solely a choice because I was stupid.

Years later after I grew up on the subject, a gay friend said "so what if it is a choice, how is it any of your god damn business either way?"

She made a point, I learned yet again.

On race, most white Americans are stubborn and unwilling to just admit that they are wrong.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

454. White people ARE all racist, in varying degrees. The problem is that they continue to deny it.

That's why we will never make progress as long as there is this denial.

Bill Maher, Mike Malloy, Tim Wise, Michael Moore...even some of the most beloved white liberals--whom I admire greatly--say that ALL white people have internalized racism, whether they realize it or not. Acknowledging this pathology and working hard to combat it...that's the only way to really eradicate it.

[notadmblnd]

527. I think sometimes we use the word "racist" when we should actually be using the word "bigot"

I don't believe that all white people are racists because individually (white privilege aside) the average white person has about as much power as the average black person. However, I do believe that all people hold bigoted attitudes and when I say all people I mean White, Black, Yellow, blue and any color/ethnicity one can think of in between.

What I have always felt was important to teach my children is that holding bigoted attitudes is wrong and that we need to recognize it in ourselves when it occurs and work to eliminate that attitude. That includes immersing ourselves in other cultures, putting ourselves in others shoes and standing up and speaking out when witnessing others engaging in bigoted speech or behavior.

I absolutely agree with those people you mentioned, acknowledging it and working hard to combat bigoted attitudes is the only way to eliminate racism.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

622. No, I mean racist. I'm very clear on the meaning, thanks.

[AgingAmerican]

573. ALL people are racist, in varying degrees

YOU included. Do YOU admit it? We will never make progress until YOU stop denying it.

[CreekDog]

515. Are you claiming to be a victim of reverse racism?

FAIL.

(I'm white btw, and not self hating either)

[AgingAmerican]

574. There is no such thing as reverse racism

nt

[CreekDog]

637. Yup

[7962]

258. There is a difference between racism & prejudice

Something that most people everywhere dont seem to realize.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

262. Everybody has prejudices, only those in power can be racists

[7962]

267. So the Klan arent racists?

[bravenak]

270. It's white supremacy that gives them any power at all.

They used to have enormous power and influence. Some us republican politicians had gone to events put on by people in that lifestyle. You never know who is a KKK. They used to be called Senator and Sherriff and Governor.

[raven mad]

336. Damn right, and the most terrified I've ever been was in a little town in northern Virginia-

on our way (I was about 10, my brother was 6) to visit my grandmother. This is about 1964. We were at this nice little off-the-path motel, nice pool, restaurant, not a chain. After dinner, mom and dad let me take my brother to the pool while they "rested". We stayed till right at dark. A field over, there was quite a commotion, we could hear folks laughing, and music, and kids playing and being kids ourselves, decided to check it out.

It was a Klan rally, hoods and all.

We tore back to the motel room like a pair of Thoroughbreds on the backstretch of the Preakness. Mom and Dad literally shoved the dresser in our room in front of the double-locked door.

We're white.

[bravenak]

344. Even if I were white I would have had a heart attack.

Called the FBI and stuff.

[raven mad]

359. Not in 1964 in Virginia you wouldn't!

LOL!

We were barely knowledgeable of the "history" of that hate group as kids - of course, that's normal, "history" lessons hadn't even started in school yet. But we knew enough to get the fuck outta Dodge.

I really do thank whatever higher power there is that I was raised differently from so many of my peers; I can SEE skin color, of course, but what I celebrate is what's between the ears.

[bravenak]

362. Ha ha!!

Yeah, I'd have run for the border.

I see why people left in droves in the 20th century. My family ran all the wat to california in a station wagon. Freedom!!! It was like the end of slavery all over again.

[ND-Dem]

442. so all white people are in power? you seem to be contradicting yourself.

[mythology]

576. What utter nonsense

There is nothing in the definition of racist that requires power.


a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

At best you can argue that in our society only whites benefit from institutional racism. But that is a very limited definition of racism.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

582. sigh

[AgingAmerican]

577. Sociology only deals with institutions and groups, not individuals

racists are individuals.

All racism isn't institutional, sorry.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

457. Sure, but racial prejudice IS racism! When you have an aversion to someone else based solely on race

that IS racism. When you feel superior based on your race; or, you have a hatred, fear, or any kind of loathing for someone else due to their race, that IS racism! Period!

Note below that "racial prejudice" is the same as racism. There's no difference when it comes to race.

--------

From Merriam-Webster

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/Submit
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
"a program to combat racism"
synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, casteism
"Aborigines are the main victims of racism in Australia"

[7962]

521. Huh? Chauvinism is NOT racism. Guess it depends on which Webster's you look up

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
Prejudice defined:: an unfair feeling of dislike for a person or group because of race, sex, religion, etc.
: a feeling of like or dislike for someone or something especially when it is not reasonable or logical

Remember Jesse Jacksons words about feeling guilty when he felt relieved to turn around and know it was a couple white teens trailing him? THATS prejudicial thinking. And you can have prejudicial thinking with regard to many different things that have nothing to do with humans. Racism is related only to people and their race.
So a black man who thinks he's better than a black woman is a racist? Hardly.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

623. Where did I write or imply that chauvinism = racism. I posted the definition

from M-W. I can't help if you disagree.

[7962]

629. I know it wasnt YOU, but i also posted from Webster's. And that one doesnt mention it.

Its a ridiculous comparison. Chauvinism is male/female and has nothing to do with race.
I guess if we give it another 50 yrs not liking certain ethnic foods will be racism too!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

648. Jesus, yet another idiotic post. Goodbye!

[one_voice]

399. Um, no...

ALL

ALL

ALL
white americans are racist to one degree or another, myself included

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

400. Sorry, this is not up for debate, some things are just facts

Whether consciously , subconsciously, overtly or whatever, by being part of the group with the power you receive white privilege daily thus you are part of the racism.

[one_voice]

402. Sorry your opinion aren't facts...

Just because YOU say so doesn't make it so.

Unless you have some legit facts you can link to, it's just your opinion at this point.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

404. Trust me, I am not the original author of this statement of fact, I am just a white

guy who knows it is true.

By DEFINITION if you are part of the group that has the power , and if you are white you are, you then receive white privilege daily and therefore are part of the effect of racism.

Not complicated

[one_voice]

408. Great, then it should be no problem to give...

me the links to back up the assertions that all white people are racists to some degree or another. I'm sure there have been some sorts of studies done. Not complicated, right?

I don't need you to tell me what part of what group I belong, I'm well aware. Now if you'll kindly back up that broad statement that you made I'd very much appreciate it. Until then, it remains nothing more than your opinion.

This was your statement:

ALL

ALL

ALL
white americans are racist to one degree or another, myself included

^^^^ is not the same as this:

and if you are white you are, you then receive white privilege daily and therefore are part of the effect of racism.

Living in a world with racism is NOT the same as being a racist. You have no idea what I or anyone else does to try and change the system--the system=racism. Individuals are racists which is what claim to be a fact.

Those are the facts I would like to see. Thank you in advance.

[Scootaloo]

494. Bravenak's only mistake is her implied exclusion of other race

Basically if you live anywhere that race matters, you are to some degree a racist. You are brought up with racist ideas and caricatures and stereotypes and beliefs. They fill your perceptions, and to a great degree you probably never noticed unless someone points it out and you go "Ohhhh... what? Really?"

Now the interesting thing is, one can be a racist, and an anti-racist at the same time. That is, one can have these bugbears and hullabalooes from the culture you're steeped in rolling around in your head, but you an stnd up and resist them, and strive to keep them from gaining traction with others.

[heaven05]

654. no links or facts necessary, history is the only link necessary

to understand that the fact of institutionalized, systemic american racism only affects POC of color everyday. Those who benefit everyday from that system, without regard for the people it harms and/or do not EVER speak out about it are sampling/taking part in a racist system designed to benefit ONLY them. That's fact.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

459. Yes, they ARE facts. If you are white, you enjoy certain privileges that come with having white skin

I don't care what income stratum you belong to. You will always have an advantage over a person of color. Deny all you want. Close your eyes all you want. But these ARE truly the facts.

[ND-Dem]

443. I thought you said....

NoJusticeNoPeace (2,933 posts)

262. Everybody has prejudices, only those in power can be racists

All white people are "in power"?

Only white people are "in power"?

WTF?

[ND-Dem]

441. Everybody who grows up in a society where race has salience is racist to some degree, and that

includes whites, blacks, Asians, and everybody else in the world.

americans think they're unique. In this, as in many ways.

They're not.

[Scootaloo]

491. Cali's not a racist, and is one of the stronger anti-racist voices on DU

She's disagreeing (and for the matter i disagree with her...) but that doesn't make her a racist.

[heaven05]

652. +100

[tblue37]

132. Her post does NOT claim that we whites are all alike. It merely clarifies

why Azalea Banks might have reasons to feel the way she does about white Americans. I have never seen a post by bravenak that says we are all alike because we are white. But her point in this OP is perfectly valid, just as are posts by us women that try to explain why we do not want strange men invading our privacy by trying to pressure us into uninvited conversations in public places.

No, we do not think all men are brutes and rapists, but we also have to consider the potential risk posed by a man who has decided that even though we have sent NO signals that we wish to be approached, and might have deliberately sent clear signals that we would not welcome such an intrusion, he still has a right to attempt to start a conversation with us and to make a claim on our time and attention.

When we try to explain why men should not approach us without some sort of signal that we would not mind being approached, a lot of men accuse us of claiming that all men are rapists at heart. I wish they would just *try* for once to hear what we are trying to explain instead of turning our explanation around so they can be the victims.

[raven mad]

329. I don't think that's what brave is trying to say, cali -

I don't think he means every white person thinks of blacks only as groups - but too many do. Stop and frisk was a generally-understood meme of cops everywhere from the 1950's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's.................. and applied almost always to black males as a group. Like dadt. Not a "law" per se, just something that was "understood" by white cops everywhere.

Unlike whites who don't think all blacks are exactly the same in how they treat or relate to white people............. I'm being facetious, but maybe your post was from pique as opposed to understanding brave's point.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

451. Affirmative Action! I've had white women come at me in hostility, assuming that I got to one of the

top universities in the country due to my race rather than my intelligence and merit. In fact, the loudest detractors of affirmative action are white women--the nerve of them! They benefit from AA programs the most--much more than black women, and certainly much more than black men. I actually received a four year academic scholarship. But white folks DO NOT treat us as individuals, as they claim. Example? The case in Texas where the white woman ASSUMED that she was denied acceptance to Texas University due to her race, when it fact, it turns out that she indeed had lower SAT scores and GPA than many of her peers, black and white.

Even the so-called liberals say shit out of their mouths, either due to willful ignorance or deliberate condescension. They assume that they know what's best for the black community. (Of course I'm speaking in generalities...see how much that hurts?)

[raven mad]

322. Exactly a point I tried to make several years ago.

I was living in Alabama at the time. I finally think I got the other person to quit viewing blacks as "group" and come to terms with each person he dealt with. It worked in the limited sense that for the first time in his 30 years growing up where he did and at the time he did, he developed friendships with a race not his own. And has kept it up.

Sigh. I guess sometimes that's all you can ask for.

[bravenak]

326. I'll take what I can get.

Alabama? My daddy came from that way, near mobile. I'll need to look it up again and research. I want to go visit family but I'm still scared of the south. No offense if you're southern, but I have a big ass mouth sometimes.

[raven mad]

331. Birmingham...............

My daughter was born near there. Worst mistake I ever made was in moving there, and I got out as quickly as I could and came home!

Edited to say: I'm not truly southern, I'm a mutt - born south of Miami, lived a long time near Kennedy Space Center (Merritt Island) for dad's employment, which is how we wound up here.

Mobile is usually a pretty nice area no matter what color you are! The south has been changing a lot, especially the areas that rely on tourism/trade/casinos, all of which applies to Mobile. I don't think you'd have a problem, except the sweet tea there is like treacle!

[bravenak]

370. I love my sweet tea extra sweet.

Uh oh. Maybe i'm southern? I think Mobile is where I'll stop when I go. I hear the summers are beautiful and humid. I'll get a good hotel with ac.

[davidsilver]

357. Well put. I couldn't agree with you more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

361. That I have detractors on this site or that I love everybody.

[davidsilver]

367. LOL! That we should love everyone even though we should hold them accountable.

[DustyJoe]

383. like- love- trust- respect

Those are words I reserve only for people I know, not any stranger of any gender, race or ethnicity. People I do not know get none of the above from me, and shouldn't expect it of me any more than I expect it of them.

Now civility and politeness I will give anyone if those are returned or provided in kind.

[cali]

2. I thinka generalization like this is pointless- and worse.

first of all, we can't love people en masse. that's a nice fiction, but as EM Forster pointed out in a wonderful essay, it's a fiction. What we can do is try and tolerate people and the differences that may separate us.

Not ONE SINGLE person here is suggesting that black people should love white people. Never seen it. Not once.

This is just a very faulty premise on which to start a conversation.

[bravenak]

7. People got upset at the fact that a black woman hates whit people in this anti black nation.

I wanna know why they think she should LIKE them. What have they done as a group to make themselves liked? We assimilate, we worked for free for them, we get treated like a subspecies by that group.. So, why the shock that living in America under white supremacy would cause anger and hate in a person? I mean, America seems to hate her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I'm not upset...I am disappointed...

I'm not upset...I am disappointed that someone would hate me without getting to know me.

[bravenak]

18. So is she.

And she has about 50 million white racist who hate her. Some send her death threats. There are more white racists than there are black PEOPLE in America. It's hard for a 23 year old woman to sort that out.
I'm shocked at the vitriol from well educated liberal white people. I figure they should guess very easily why she feels that way. Years of racism in America is psychologically damaging to us abd causes ptsd and sleep problems and early death. Why no empathy from white liberaks who shoukd know our history and know better that to pile on a young woman damaged and assaulted by ravism in America. She is reflecting back the hate she recieves.

[cali]

34. so everyone who disagrees with her who is white is a racist? what else could be

construed with your 50 million figure?

You have gone a bit over the top with this. You are actively defending someone who has repeatedly uttered some very ugly hateful bigotry.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that every black person in this country is psychologically damaged by the wider culture?

[bravenak]

131. No. I think we have 50 million racists in this nation.

[Jackpine Radical]

215. Thank you for the generous underestimate.

I hope, for her sake, that she overcomes her anger because chronic anger will destroy her, but I sure as hell understand why it might be there.

It is obviously possible for a black woman to have her eyes open to all the ugliness of our reality, but to still view the world and all its flawed people with compassion (and no less commitment to changing it). You yourself I think provide ample evidence of that. I hope that a bit of maturity will bring her that. Her passion can be a great weapon in its own right, but I can imagine her becoming much more effective once she manages to get her fire under control and learns to use it strategically.

[bravenak]

256. I agree. It will take her time. It took me until my twenties.

[7962]

278. If you really think that then sadly you are part of the problem.

There's not a racist behind every tree, really, there isnt.
None of this helps anything. We have people right here on DU that see nothing wrong with calling a black man or woman every name in the book, simply because they claim to be a "conservative" or republican. And when I alert on the posts as offensive, only ONCE has the offending post been blocked.
We certainly have whites that are racists across this country. We also have blacks that are too. But those views are not mainstream and they are not how most whites or blacks feel, IMO. Klan marches are laughed at and attended by hundreds of protestors and maybe a dozen actual marchers. Didnt use to be that way. People of ALL colors are tired of bad cops & bad laws. And the bad cops kill whites too.

[bravenak]

282. There are millions of them. Fifty million is being conservative.

Most of the Republican party, many who don't vote. Add up to tens and tens of millions of racists. They are the problem not me. Go fix them. Thanks!

[7962]

288. If you really think thats true, then its a lost cause.

I think part of the issue is how exactly do YOU define racism? Many people have different opinions on what it means. The true definition is believing that one race, whatever race that may be, is superior to all other races.
So if you really think that 50+ million whites think that all blacks are inferior to them, I doubt you'll ever think otherwise.
NOT voting for Obama doesnt mean you are a racist. Otherwise, there would never have been any GOP presidents!
When Hillary wins the next election, there will be about the same number of people who didnt vote for her as didnt vote for Obama.

[bravenak]

292. It is not about voting for Obama or Clinton.

It is my conservative estimate.

[7962]

301. Then how are blacks any different than whites, according to your point in the OP?

Because if you're talking about judging whites "as a group", how is that any more fair than white people who look at black crime and then assume that ALL blacks are that way? They're not judging the individual, they're judging them "as a group".
So whites, as a group, are racists and all blacks, as a group, are criminals. Well, thats nuts.
Despise those who have wronged you, but dont lump ME in with their sorry asses!

[bravenak]

303. I never said any of that.

[TheKentuckian]

549. It isn't that big a number, it is absurd to think that no way a quarter or a third of whites are

racists, Jim Crow is in living memory which indicates a high level of comfort and support for such depravity and there is no reason to think everyone just flipped and that from that time there have been no new racist come down the pipe.

Being racist certainly extends well beyond Klan membership, saying nigger all day and burning crosses all night.

[7962]

583. And the words of people like Banks just gives ammo to the racists out there.

Every time some idiot with a microphone, like he,r comes out with vile BS like that, it just re-enforces any racist opinions that ARE still out there. We just get more of "See, "they're" all like that". Oh, she had a tough kindergarten? Tough shit, thats life. Shit happens to all of us at one time or another. Does my cousin being abused 30 yrs ago by 3 black boys when she was 8 mean its ok for her to hate blacks, "as a group"? She doesnt, but I guess if she wanted to, she'd have a good excuse
And I think if the numbers of racists were anywhere near that big, there's no way we easily elect a black president TWICE;
theres no way that majority white districts in Ga, where I live, elect blacks to represent them both state and nationally, or many other states that do the same thing. And yes, many of the older people who were of age back in the Crow days HAVE changed. Listen to John Lewis talk about meeting one of those who had actually beaten him in AL. and how HE changed.
But again, if we're just going to continue to assume most/all whites are racists in 2015, then its a lost cause anyway. Wonder what it will be like when the majority of the population is Hispanic!!

[TheKentuckian]

659. Moved the goal posts a significant minority isn't "most" but rather an unfortunate too many

that there is little indication that they don't exist and zero benefit because it is a lie that makes about no sense.

Okay, what percentage would you put and if 25% - 35% is like orders of magnitude too high then explain all the fucking racism and the volume of dog whistle.

[heaven05]

675. you have no empathy

Last edited Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:09 PM - Edit history (1)

or .....ahhh forget it. The lost cause is denial and distraction from the real point that this is a sick, racist culture and a society filled with sick racist people, whose population is in the millions...... Does my grandmother getting shot by people hiding under sheets, in Georgia, two generations ago mean I hate all white people, NO. Yet the question that begs an answer is why is this type of hate is still present and growing in a country that elected a mixed race POTUS? Selective cultural blindness and deflective cultural reasoning is not something that helps find a solution to your meanness and the general racism running rampant in our society. "Tough shit, that's life"? You never had to face that life, so you're not experienced enough to speak for all who are facing and having to deal with it, every day, even in 2015. "Tough shit"!!!!!??????. Right. Geez

[7962]

683. And of course, you have no idea what I've been through in my life, nor I you.

And my opinion is that the hate ISNT growing. If it was growing we never WOULD have elected Obama or the other folks I mentioned earlier. We just have 24/7 news that will highlight ANY incident. Homicide is down in the US and has been for years compared to the 70s, but the average person will tell you that all hell has broken loose because of what they see on the news. They'll tell you things are much worse NOW. TV is the enemy of us all.
But still, people like banks spouting her racist, homophobic bullshit does NOTHING to help the cause AT ALL. Oh, she's got such life experiences to tell us all at age 23. No, I dont know YOU, but I'll damn sure bet you've dealt with shit in your life that makes hers a walk in the park.

[jobycom]

433. I'm stating 200 million. I'm one of them.

I don't want to be. I work every moment of my life to not be. But it's always there, always around me. I take advantage of being white every time I walk into a restaurant, apply for a job, get a raise, talk my way out of a ticket. The other day I yelled at a cop and didn't get arrested, much less shot. That was me taking advantage of being white. And using my special privilege of whiteness makes me a racist. People either get that, or they don't. They are like fish who either see the water they swim in, or just don't see it because it is so basic to their world that they live in that it goes unnoticed. (Rereading this, notice I said "people." I'm just assuming you all know I meant white people. It's just the default assumption of us racists.)

Whenever I use my white privilege, someone of another race gets to be the counterweight to my success. Whites are more likely to get raises than blacks, so when I get that raise, black people are statistically less likely to get it. When I don't get a traffic ticket, where is the cop going to make up the statistical difference?

I'd like to believe that because I love everyone and live with a Latina life partner and literally have very few friends who are white that it's impossible for me to be racist. But the truth is, it's impossible for me not to be. When I vote, I don't vote for the candidate most likely to correct the problems, I vote for the candidate most likely to make my drive to work easier. When I shop, I don't spend money in a way that will reduce racist segregation in this country by employing black people, paying them equally to white people, etc. I spend money where it's easiest for me, and that means I'm usually paying white people money that they are statistically cheating non-white people out of.

I can protest the murders of Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin (notice how cool I am in my whiteness to call them murders?), but I can't reject the privilege that makes me less likely to get shot. I'm not even risking that much with my protesting. I can carry a sign and yell "Down with whitey!" and if the cops charge into the crowd with pepper gas, I can run a block over and stroll away without fear. And the little risk I take by protesting alongside black people is purely voluntary, unlike the black protestors. For them it's just life. I can't not be white.

So if I don't vote with every vote and spend with every dollar and shout with every word that racism must end, I'm being racist, because I'm supporting a racist system. I don't even have to do anything. I just have to do nothing, and assume that my nice, pretty thoughts are enough to exonerate me. They aren't, though. I can't escape my roll in this society. The best I can do is open my mind and my heart and try to be better, and maybe just maybe make the system a little better.

[bravenak]

438. This was a great post. We have gotten so many great posts on this thread.

Thank you.

[heaven05]

650. excellent

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

464. I think there are many more than that, my friend. Many more. And sorry. White liberals are worse.

Much worse! I learned the hard way during the 2007-2008 Democratic primaries. The white racism in the Democratic Party was shocking! I always knew they were there, but didn't realize how far and wide the hatred went.

Democratic Underground further opened my eyes to this fact, too. People who called themselves "liberal" or "progressive" were saying the most ignorant, racist shit about black people, then getting angry at the people of color here on DU when we dare raise the issue.

I only post every once in awhile because DU has turned me off so much. But when I feel the need to speak out, I will. And you already know, I won't hold my tongue on these issues, especially.

This is a great thread and the conversation needs to be had.

[bravenak]

468. I am so glad you showed up. I can't keep myself from saying what needs to be said.

(Joe is GONE!! Praise everything! Tbh. )

The 2007 promary is the number one reason I am not interested in Hillary Clinton, I'll leave that there. Or Bill for that matter. I saw things that really let me know we are basically alone, with some exceptions.
Thank you for coming out to say hey, I felt it was time for an airing out. A come to Jesus moment after the way I see thread after thread trashing the same black person with glee. Cannot take it. Either I say something or shut the fuck up and leave. Maybe one day people will care how they appear to those outside their strata.

Funny how me asking this question get me called racist. Nobody has heard of the clean hands principle up in here.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

474. Don't you know the new rules? When we call out racism that makes US racists. It's ridiculous, right?

Keep your head up and never back down. You've not made any statements that are invalid.

I applaud those here who do understand and who admit the truth. The rest can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned. They are being incredibly dishonest and hypocritical.

I'm always here for my friends, even when I'm not.

Speaking truth to power, always!!

[bravenak]

480. Thank you!

I'm glad I did this!

[IsItJustMe]

499. Yeah, what you said. Back in that day, It shocked me too.

I won't even bring that stuff up, for fear of having my post judged and deleted. But your observation is spot on, and I know exactly what you are talking about. That was one rough Primary and sure opened my eyes to the existing racism in the Democratic party. No doubt about it.

[heaven05]

200. geez

[tblue37]

138. +1! nt

[DonCoquixote]

218. I would then offer her this

Let's assume I am speaking to Ms. Banks. Note, this is directed at Her, not at the OP, and not at any othe black artists, many of whom Banks has attacked herself.

"OK, first, if you hate all white people, kindly avoid taking their money with records. I realize you may not have any way to stop Becky in the suburbs from buying your stuff, but you are marketing it. Taking money from seeling your product is not reparations, it is capitalism, the very structure that funded the slave ships, and yes, you are a part of it if you seel to white people. You admire Jay-Z , saying he never had to ask "white people to accpet him." Well, a whole lot of white people buy his clothing line. There are some that argue that by particpating in the music buisness, you are helping the very same people who have exploited black people for years rich and powerful.

"Second, if you want to support Black Artists, why the hell you you have to jump on the bandwagon and attack folks like Pherrell and Lil Kim that were making strides and taking hit back when you were in high school? The fact is, there might no be female rap stars if not for Lil Kim, period. Whenever you crank up the outrage, you are playing the game SHE invented, just like Nicki Minaj is. Asfar as Pherrell, you jumped on the whole "Blurred lines" bandwagon. Now, I could find a lot of things bad to say about that song, as well as T.I. (and I support your well placed attacks on him and his Aussie faux Eminem former model), but you do realize that the whole veridct was aimed at sampling, which is the record companies attacks on somethign that was around well before hip hop (Guess Pink Floyd will have to pay for all it's samples) and something that has been a part of hip hop. The whole community of hip hop should have gotten behind Pherell because they know this is a direct assualt on hip hop, one more way for the same "masters" to beat msuiacns into line. Simply put, why do you have to add to the Beef when there is way too much of it already?"

OK, turnign the camera away from banks. My point is not to discredit the idea that there are many "liberals" who are good at hiding the fact that they do not like, nor wish to accept, non-whites as equals. Equals means that you do not get the default setting for power, or that you have any MORE respect because you are white. My point is that some, like Banks, are active particpants in, and beneficaries of, this system. Really, if Ted Nugent did another racist screed, he would get pilloried on here, as he should be. Go ahead and look up the threads on him. But Ted knows that gets attention, so why should we encourage Banks who feeds from the same grain, even though she should know better?

[bravenak]

233. I'm about to get you, hold you butt.

Number one: When that young woman sells her records or puts on a show, that money becomes HER DAMN MONEY, and you best get that through your head. She is not a charity case and works for every damn dime 'Becky' spends on her songs. Further more most of her customers are black. It was Iggy selling to suburbia.

Money is a comodity. The second you spend it it is no longer yours to claim. Every dime of her money is hers, not white peoples money. For real. Stop that shit right now.

Second. Lil Kim did not write her shit Biggie was writing her shit first them some others. Kim could perform, that is it. Period. She lost our resoect when she took her self to the plastic surgeon and messed her face all up. Unrecognizable. She was beautiful but wanted to look more White. That hurt us as black women trying to confident with our african features. That is why she got called a sell out. Pharell is a trip. It's all about money with him. Pharrell sampled a black mans music and shoukd hsve paid that man's family. Everyone knew that. Period. It is skanless.

[DonCoquixote]

332. money

Yes it is her money, and I never implied she was anything close to a charity case. If anything I applaud the fact that she does make money, but, she should be honest about how that money is made. It would be one thing is this was like the Chris Rock movie "Cb4" where a bunch of artists pruposely try to be nasty in order to sell records, but it is another to believe your own propaganda, because then you become fat easy prey for those who know how to cater to your ego, and who would use you against your own people. Case in point, I am Puerto Rican, and for a while "raggaeton" was gettign big. One of the guys in it was Don Omar, who caled himself "king of Kings." Now, as you may or may not know, the king of king refer to the latin kings. It would be one thing if he was a latin king, singing about his life, but this kid was a yout evenagelist in his popi's church. The reason I am pissed at him is because he is making money off a stereotype, the same as many "gangsta" rappers make money off of blakc steretypes, and while yes, it is her money, keep in mind that in the music buisness, every diem you make is only done by making an executive richer, one who very often has explited people befre you and will do so after you are gone. Say what you will about Suge Knight, but he was one of the few to challenege the music executives, and when he fell, it is nto accident the media took, and still takes, the worst shots at him possible.

Second, as far as bad plastic surgery, if you curcified everyone who got messed up by a plastic surgeon, you would need a stadium. However, the whole idea of looking "white" is not that well defined anymore. Is Beyonce selling out by dying her hair blonde? You ask most people what color is Beyonce's hair, it is blonde, now, I do not think is her trying to be "white" I think it is her being her, same way Nicki Minaj is known for a Pink wig (she wears pink hair more than Pink does, and looks better in it.)

[bravenak]

338. It was the plastic surgery to remove her ethnic features we were upset about.

She lost her fans because she tried to change herself and we liked her because she was 'real'. You don't keep making money off if your realness if you put a pound of plastic in your body.
We live in a capatalist nation. If you work for somebody you are enriching them more than your self. I used to submit contracts to do government subcontracting on military bases so I know who gets the lion's share of the money.
Suge knight ruled through violence and I can see why the take down was big. I remember that it was BIGGER in the black community than in general. He was ripping off his artists just like everyone else which was why Snoop dog left for a while and joined no limit. Remember that? Yep. That one was bad news and now he has killed a friend by driving over him twice! Suge deserves what he gets just for that alone. He was menacing and threatening. Yeah, I'll give him credit for getting black artists out there, but why you think Dre wasn't fucking with him anymore. Too volitile and dangerous.
Sometimes making money off of a stereotype is all some have. Remember the first blacks and hispanics (the ones who did not change their names) ended up in stereotypical roles, like band leader, maids, sax player, drivers and servants. Entertainers and servants. We do what we have to do to provide for the next generation. Sometimes there is no other role fir us in the business other than stereotypes. Gangster rap? I used to work at the clubs and met quite a few of those goofy fools. They did not act like gangsters. I know from gangster and I'll say right now, most rappers are not gangster even if they gangster rap. Even those fools who did Nation Wide Rip Ride were BG's.

[heaven05]

651. you totally

disregard the actions that have pushed this artist in her realization of how a systemically and institutionalized racism in a so called democracy could hurt her so much that she drops the mask of 'civility' and tells the truth about what she has experienced at the hands of white americans. I find so much discrediting of the person and no acknowledgement of the hurt and hate perpetrated against this woman by a racist system designed to create hurt and hate in a POC. And if those POC should allow themselves to feel their pain and speak out about it, they are being uncivil and oh so angry.

No idea of pain, just afraid of the anger is the typical response of those who benefit from a system that they revel in.

Sad indeed, the level of WILLFUL ignorance and total denial of facts among so called liberal and progressives. THIS is a major cause of the perpetuation of racism in america. Period.

[DonCoquixote]

662. actually no

There are many aritst who have spoken about exactly what Ms. banks does, and they range from older like Harry Belafonte to as news as Kanye West, however, there is a point where, especially be being very willing to attack her FELLOW BLACK and LGBT ARTISTS, that Banks becomes a tool of the very people she is fighting against. It is not disregarding her pain to tell her "look, you know that when you diss other minority artists, the music executives get grins on their face, just like they did when Biggie and Tupac used to fight." Do we want another corpse to exploit?, no.

[heaven05]

668. hopefully she'll sort things out one day

Last edited Thu Mar 26, 2015, 02:44 PM - Edit history (2)

I don't agree with all of her views she holds as a younger adult, yet I must remember when I held some view(s), at her age, that were not appreciated by my more liberal friends and associates. I still deal with the demons I let in when I held those views. But they are caged and getting counseling. Small smile.....

I will not condemn this person just because she holds some views contrary to what I may believe are liberal and progressive. THE MUSIC EXECUTIVES have been the same way since Little Richard, et al. In general, They could care less about the artist, they believe only in the bottom line and yes I agree as long as we are fighting each other they are making big bank. It's always been about money forever and ever in that shark infested swamp. I don't totally disagree with you in that respect, yet I must say, even with this artists prominence and effect upon fans, that I hope the fans will sort out their misdirected hate, if it mirrors this artists hate and confusion. I'll stay on her side and counsel her to get things sorted out and prioritized. Some of the things she says are right on the mark and she has the right to say them. At least she has the courage to say what's on her mind. The music execs won't help you, you must do it yourself. It is possible that things get sorted out by this artist and she becomes an ally to those people and sub groups she maligns. If in the years to come she hangs on to the negative stereotypes she holds about certain sub cultures and/or individuals, then another is lost to the hate generating culture of a consistently sick and racist society that caused her to speak out in the first place.

In principle, I do agree with your last post. But you are wrong in many other areas of your analysis. I thought I'd clarify especially seeing it could be misconstrued that I agreed with all your posts, which I do not. Bravnak is right on target. You do have selective cultural blindness in regard to this racist and sick society.

[cali]

16. people went overboard on the Azalia Banks business

and I said so, but for fuck's sake, brave, she said some truly appalling shit, so yeah, people started harping on it. and if she was white and said that she hated "fat black Americans and faggots" etc, she would have gotten the same reaction.

I don't see anyone saying Banks- or you, for that matter- should like them or white people in general.

[bravenak]

24. They do it to Kanye.

A black person says/does something stupid? Overboard everydamn time. It's disgusting watching a bunch of people who have not lived that experience pile in like savages. Nobody bothered to research the fact that she has experienced alot of racism even from her KINDERGARDEN teacher. A five year old dealing with a grown respected woman flinging racism at students. Black kids in her class got punished for minor offenses while whit kids got petted and encourged if they acted out. She need therapy and white america needs to focus on their racists.

[geek tragedy]

30. Kanye is a huge star, and he gets attention not for hating on white people or racists, but

for being, as president Obama called him "a jackass."

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

91. DId you even get an answer yet? Or just white people knee jerk reacting defensively because

it makes them uncomfortable when presented with the truth?

I think the latter

[bravenak]

95. No answers. Just anger, accusations of racism and recriminations.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I can understand why she feels that way but it makes me feel bad...

I can understand why she feels that way but it makes me feel bad and if given the chance I could convince her I am a nice, thoughtful person.

[bravenak]

407. I know you are. She is young and bitter. We all go through that and have to overcome. For our sanity

[treestar]

81. Why should she hate people based on

Their skin color any more than white people should?

[bravenak]

92. She has recieved alot more hate than she gives out.

Why should she not? It takes time to sort shit out. She is young and getting hate from white America all over the place. If liberals are this bad, imagine how nasty conservatives are to her. All those death threats. Leave America!!! Saying that she has 'white america's money'? I saw the last 2 on DU.

[treestar]

99. Well I didn't do any of that so why does she hate me?

thays what we are taught is wrong and what we claim is wrong. Wrong to generalize about nonwhite people

[bravenak]

106. She probably doesn't.

She just hasn't learned to specify yet.

[bettyellen]

522. well turn that around, and you get what POC ask them selves every day of the week.

why do so many hate them? why do so many see the hate and look away?

[treestar]

525. True. Yet the solution doesn't seem to lie in

simply turning it around. Too much hate and does not advance equality.

We need more positivity:

[bettyellen]

535. "possitivty" sounds nice, but is basically asking POC to STFU about their struggles, and to solve

the issue of institutional racism all by themselves.
Because gosh forbid some people are offended and take these discussion personally. Their discomfort is paramount, eh?

[treestar]

565. No it's not

Why did you interpret it that way.

Plus we are also told not to interfere. Now we are part of it. And what do we do. You make it sound like we have to be uncomfortable. Ok we are. Now how did that improve anything.

[bettyellen]

566. POC are looking for support and for white people to recognize the day to day effects of racism and

to help end institutional racism by confronting it where they find it.
if you heard "don't interfere" -likely a response to someone who wanted to take over- and decide to take your ball and go home.... well then it does appear you're unable to see past your bruised feelings and actually be a good ally. Ego gets in the way for many otherwise good people.

[get the red out]

124. I am white

And she has every right to feel what she feels. I don't have her personal experience, I can't judge her.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

94. Are you a minority?

[treestar]

102. No

Why do you make it personal ?

Why should I be hated for the actions of others?

If you make it personal then handle it that way.

Ms Banks hates me. I am also fat. Right now anyway.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

196. So you are never going to learn, I guess. Too bad, if so called liberals cant learn there is NO

chance the idiots on the other side ever will.

[treestar]

395. Victimhood must be comfortable in some way.

Remain a victim then.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

397. Victim? LOL

Oh lord...where am i again?

[bettyellen]

628. Lol- actually those who speak up do because they are strong....

And clear on their values and their needs.
Beats being ignorant and complacent, or resigned to the status quo any day of the week.

[romanic]

640. I just love this question.

It pops up everytime a person of color posts and doesn't entirely tow the line of the OP/etc. If the person was white it's expected, but if it's someone whose actually a minority, then the questions mount and disbelief sets in. Black people are not a monolith, but if you don't agree then your race is put into question multiples times over.

[Oktober]

123. I don't like her because she is an abject moron...

... as is demonstrated every time she opens her mouth.

[bravenak]

127. As do you.

Everytime.

[upaloopa]

139. If she doesn't like me because I am white

I certainly am not going to lose any sleep over it. She has the problem not me.

[bravenak]

143. She doesn't know enough about life yet.

[upaloopa]

150. Could be

[ND-Dem]

450. neither do 18-year-old skinheads, but they don't get a pass.

[bravenak]

497. They are not the victims of white supremacy, now are they?

They are it's beneficiaries.

[AgingAmerican]

644. Actually they are casualties of it

They just don't realize it yet

Most likely they learned it at home from their parents. Racist attitudes are handed down intergenerationally. When you teach your kid to hate, you ruin that kids life. It's a never ending cycle, and only education will stop it. I would be willing to bet those 18 year olds parents did not attend college and most likely didn't finish high school. Same with the girls parents.

[bravenak]

646. No they are the aggressors, not victims.

Black supremacy does not exist for them to feel hate. They have no reason other than teaching and hate and racism. It has no where near the same negative impact on them, and has impact on many blacks. No, they are never victims. Watch American History X.

[Marr]

165. People have a problem, and rightly so, with someone saying they HATE a group of

people based on their skin color. I'm amazed that the offensiveness of such a remark isn't obvious to you, or that you would defend such a sentiment.

[bravenak]

169. There are 50 million white racists in America.

Why are a group of liberals piling on her when Dick Cheney said racist shit in the same magazine on the same day? I can think of one reason.

[Marr]

174. There are lots of racists, yes-- and this woman is one of them.

I won't defend her racism anymore than I'd defend Cheney's.

[bravenak]

175. Who no plie on on cheney? The war criminal?

I know why. It's easier to tear her apart and feel about selfs.

[Marr]

181. I don't even know what Cheney's remarks were.

Would I be correct in assuming it was something a little more camouflaged than "I hate white people"?

[bravenak]

184. Of course you don't. His were ignored to focus on her.

She is an asshole. I just don't understand the shock and anger.

[Marr]

229. Well, I'm not shocked and angered so I can't help you.

Also, since our whole system was deeply and overtly racist until recent decades (and still is, just stealthily and structurally), I don't think a sentiment like "I hate white people" from this singer is quite the same as "I hate black people" as uttered by some bubba. The context is different, I'll grant you that.

I don't think it's anymore worthy of defense though.

[bravenak]

234. I don't need to defend her.

She is an asshole for sure. But the pile in and thread after thread show me alot.

[cwydro]

197. There have been a million pile-on posts on Cheney.

And on Bush. And on Ted Nugent. And Toby Keith. And Sarah Palin. And Tom Cruise. And Donald Trump. And Elizabeth Hasselback.

And omg, have you ever seen an Ann Coulter thread???

All white and all as stupid as heads of lettuce.

People are picking on this Banks individual because she sounds ignorant, she uses homophobic language, and she particularly chose the word "fat" as well as making fun of low-income "girls" who work at K-Mart.

DU makes fun of all stupid celebrity comments.

[hfojvt]

47. I would make that suggestion

but I am a jerk like that.

Here's where I would quote Martin, since I just found my copy of Stride Toward Freedom (which was sitting right in front of me). A bomb had just blown up on his front porch with his wife and young daughter inside. He wrote:

"By this time the crowd outside was getting out of hand. The policemen had failed to disperse them, and throngs of additional people were arriving every minute..." He said, he went outside and spoke to the crowd, saying "..."We must love our white brothers," ..."no matter what they do to us. We must make them know that we love them. Jesus still cries out in words that echo across the centuries 'Love your enemies,; bless them that curse you; pray for them that despitefully use you.' This is what we must live by. We must meet hate with love...." pp 137-38

Now, he was talking about even loving RACIST white people.

At this point though, there would be many fewer objections if the person in question had said "I hate racist white people." But by leaving out any sort of modifier, she threw ALL white people under the bus, even Obama's mom.

It would be nice if we had an integrated society where a black person would have a least a few white friends and thus not make statements that would include some of their friends.

[GitRDun]

620. I'm with you on this OP, a horrid use of the DU forum

It's nothing more than an attention seeking post.

Bravenak asks the question she/he already knows the answer to; blacks are free to hate whites and whites as a GROUP have done nothing to earn respect of minorities. OK, we all know this.

It's a useless post that really does not add value to a discussion on race relations.

[heaven05]

653. It's a great OP

and an excellent use of a 'liberal and/or progressive' forum. Got a lot of discussion going. THAT'S GREAT!!!!!!

[H2O Man]

3. Gosh

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. should ... only one reason and it is selfish ... and to love on indiviual basis

as one learns another human being over time.

However, to hate the Institution that, over time throughout the ages, Whites (especially white men) have built -I- see nothing wrong with that and do not blame a black for hating That.

Do not let this hatred infest and blister your soul.

That is why I say a selfish reason, because in the end it is about YourSelf and YourHeart and YourSoul .

[bravenak]

9. That makes sense. I love because it makes me whole.

I forgive to get relief from grief. But it took me years to get over the abuse. I had a racist white step dad, so i feel her pain. It's hard to let go of, especially when you see no end in sight. Just a long road full of blockades until your dead.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

115. I want to help get past the blockades whether we go under/over/through them, matters not to me.

we have nothing but time = what we do with it, is up to us.

for you, bravenak ---->

<---- and don't you ever forget it

[heaven05]

287. to be the recipient of

Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 10:35 PM - Edit history (2)

racist hate in KINDERGARTEN is sad indeed and wounding to the spirit of a child. Mrs Filmore, yes, I remember her to this day, was my kindergarten teacher and she was/is one the kindest women I know and remember. I and my sister, my sister was of very light skin so the implications of her birth was apparent, were made fun of because we were different and Mrs Filmore would have none of it. She taught lessons from the fear that we two german brown babies engendered in others. This was in the 50's, so Mrs. Filmore was a brave woman. She protected us also when outside. After kindergarten was different story and I learned a lot of self hate because of the hate given to my sister and I. It took me decades to sort this racist american culture out and white people also. There were good protective ones, rare, there were those who did not like us but maintained a frostiness that was plain enough in it's disdain for us as human beings and these were teachers I had to sit in class with. There were store owners, people on the street that saw my sister and I together and the hate stares were withering. This group was large. The hateful group who would beat me and my sister up, her more than me because she was so light skinned was large and always a mob. We got wounded deeply by the majority crowd that hated us. I believe she died because of her low self esteem shown by her consistently picking assholes, one of which murdered her and committed suicide.

Azalea Banks is one of the millions of people wounded by a racist and hateful culture. Some like you and I finally sort it out to one degree or another. Some NEVER do and I understand why with the constant cultural reminders that we are not wanted in this society by millions of white racist haters and some alleged progressives and liberals are in there too.. There are GOOD WHITE PEOPLE, I have no doubt. I've experienced them, along with the jerks and idiots all the way from the 50's right up until today, 2015. And the idiots and racist hater ARE making a very noticeable comeback. This being said, I pray Ms. Banks is able to sort things out because the stress will cause her problems yet I do understand her hate. It is a natural feeling engendered by a racist culture and I will not condemn her,

I just want her to gain some peace within so she doesn't become a statistic. She deserves better than that and we need strong people like her who will speak their truth to power. Some on here will NEVER understand what hate does to a person, especially if they are hated for having something as superficial as another skin color other than white. I won't waste any time with those, they are not worth it and will never change probably, in their faux outrage and offense. Forget them and move on like I hope Ms Banks will and I hope she can stay safe from the racist murderers out there.

Thank you for speaking up and being a real one yourself. I love your strength.....

Got to go visit a friend, pssst, he's white....

[bravenak]

294. Thank you for the awesome post!

I think you and I have lived similar experiences. Enjoy your visit!
I visit white people all the time too. But they are cool and sometimes my relatives so maybe that doesn't count. To some. Have a good time.

[marym625]

416. Bravo!

I am so sorry about your sister. How horrible. I hope he's in jail.

Beautiful post. Thank you for sharing.

[heaven05]

435. he committed suicide

that very day. If there is a hell, I hope he's there. thanks...

[Marrah_G]

649. I wish I could rec your post

[blm]

41. (( ))

Exactly - It IS understood why. Understanding that is the first step taken to move forward.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

117. ((amen))

((peace))

[BeyondGeography]

6. The only colored group I ever loved was Pink Floyd

But they weren't even pink.

[kwassa]

13. and nobody in the group was named Floyd, either.

talk about false advertising.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. You've both left me comfortably numb . . . n/t

[Kalidurga]

11. I can't think of a reason

however, hating a group of people for what they can't control is wrong. It might be more understandable when a person from an oppressed group hates the color or religion or whatever of the oppressing group, but it is not less wrong.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. I missed something

Send me a pm of where this topic is. I totally missed something.

[Catherine Vincent]

19. Search the Azelea Banks threads nt

[JustAnotherGen]

20. Oh - her!

I'm just finding it's funny that Cheney is being all racist in the Playboy Magazine that she covers! File it under 'can't make this shit up'!

[Hoyt]

17. I can understand one "hating" or suspicious of any group where a significant portion tolerate or

actually approve of this kind of behavior, and worse.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. Smack my ass and call me sally

I just brought that nitwit up below!

[Hoyt]

43. LOL. And the right wingers invited that racist to the State of the Union Speech.

[ND-Dem]

453. what is that? is there a point to it?

[H. Cromwell]

21. Painted with a big brush

So, since the end of slavery, it is OK to continue and carry Hatred for all white people?

Using the same logic, I have a right to Hate all black people because during the 60's riots, my uncle's business was burned to the ground by black people.

WOW!!

[bravenak]

27. I said as a group, not individuals.

[bravenak]

39. White people burn cop cars and don't get shot when they riot.

Don't be a dumbass. Both groups 'riot' the same. Except we do it over racism and they do it over hockey games and pumpkin festivals.

[H. Cromwell]

54. Only white people

over celebrate/riot over sporting events or sports figures (Paterno)...no minorities are ever seen during the sports riots...and since when is a vehicle a persons business/livelihood?

In almost every instance of a racially motivated riot, somebody's business gets robbed and or burned.

[bravenak]

59. I see riots full of white only faces at hockey riots.

And they burn other stuff too. There were riots in history where white people went and burned blaxk towns to the ground. And read up on Greenwood too.

[CreekDog]

386. blacks didn't do anything to whites as a group

there isn't a moment in our history where black people enslaved white people.

there isn't a moment in our history where black people enacted Jim Crow type laws against white people.

there isn't a moment in our history where groups of black men lynched white people and white civil rights workers.

it just didn't happen.

so give it up.

your supposed concern for fairness is attempting to deny history.

oh and one more thing, i'm going to venture a guess that you refuse to acknowledge the existence of racist actions against minorities in the first place, for example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4542923

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024726899

[tblue37]

140. Yes, and they often burned black *people*, too--and often not even for

a reason, but just because.

[bravenak]

142. They looked like they were having so much fun!!

I keep one in my photos. The one where they hanged and woman and her son.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

339. Hockey riots?

Oh, Canada.

Hah.

Well, he's kinda white, or something.

[bravenak]

342. That is probably the one asian guy in the riot.

[AgingAmerican]

632. Has there ever been a 'hockey riot' in the USA?

They have them semi regularly in Canada, but I have never heard of one here...but I could be wrong. Can you list a few of the ones you have 'seen' here?

Thanks in advance!

[bravenak]

633. I believe I was confusing the pumpkin riot with a hockey riot.

I live above canada so sadly I tend to blur the boundaries between the far north of the USA with the southern portion of Canada. I can look it up tho.

[JustAnotherGen]

66. The business owners should sue black America

For reparations

[H. Cromwell]

83. Good idea!

[JustAnotherGen]

96. You have a good sense of humor!

Just seriously - trying to lighten things up. Glad you got it!

[one_voice]

417. Dear God did you really type...

'over celebrate'. They riot--that's what they do. You're right you don't see minorities during sports riots because they have more important things to worry about like being shot and killed on a daily basis.

Winning fucking games is not a reasons to burn shit down. During sports riots, there have been businesses damaged, cars damaged, police cars damaged.

:large

Penn State ^^

:large

Huntington Beach after a Surf competition ^^

:large

Denver after a football team lost ^^




I think I've proven my point.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

466. Your last sentence proves how racist you are! Bigot!

[alp227]

421. And Cromwell has been vaporized.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=209771&sub=trans

[CreekDog]

411. oops, looks like the mask is slipping

or perhaps it's another kind of head covering.

[CreekDog]

363. What else does the poster have to say on the subject?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4542923

[bravenak]

369. Wow. The only no vote.

Big honking surprise!

[CreekDog]

385. well the thing about that poster is, he's quite sensitive about things he thinks are anti-white

but, when it comes to other victims of discrimination?

he either is supportive of those things or refuses to believe they exist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024726899

[bravenak]

389. I see a pattern.

I usually think people like that are more than one person.

[CreekDog]

391. funny thing is, if their positions were so popular, why would someone need more than one account?

why can't they convince anyone to post the same way on these topics?

they have to invent people to agree with them?

i don't know if this one's a copy or not, but i do know that there's been a pattern of racists here signing up for multiple accounts.

[bravenak]

403. Yep. I agree.

They like to complain about trolls too. That always makes me laugh.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. Yes- you have the right to hate them

You just don't have the right to reduce or limit the civil rights of another individual.

I guess - until I see some serious censoring of folks like Ted Nugent -

I'm gonna just not pay attention to this. 1st Amendment Remedy right there - don't read, don't buy, don't watch, don't listen, etc. etc.

Pssst - she's on the cover of Playboy - the same month Cheney (that total worthless piece of shit whose guts I hate :devil is in an interview inside spouting off racist nonsense.

I find the former President's Puppeteers words far more disturbing than some 23 year old twinkie whose trying to get hits on the internet.

You can't make this shit up! You just can't!

P.S. Thanks for giving me an entry to point out the vile mealy mouthed Repugnant asshole keeps talking -and mouth breathing.

[bravenak]

42. That is the main reason this pisses me off so much.

Ignore his bullshit to focus on her. She's a kid to me. He killed a million people. Fuck.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. I know - that's probably why I never clicked on those threads

There were two - right?


She opens her mouth to make a buck - he kills people to get a payoff from Haliburton. And his racist shit towards the President in that article? Wouldjaf*ckaduck?

I'm a little more concerned with the fact that my dad didn't have five deferments and eventually was killed as a result of his service (agent orance, pink, and blue exposure) and yet that worthless lily livered asswipe STILL gets to talk.

Would he shut up and expire already? I hate him.

And no one at DU who is a true liberal or progressive or Democratic Party member should get upset for me saying I hope he chokes on his food tonight. ANYTHING to shut that mother f*cker up!

[bravenak]

56. I think he stole that heart from a young man.

He's like Hannibal Lector, just not as cool.
I think it's fucked up that your dad had to get poisoned so that that coward could sit on his lazy ass stealing from America. I really do.

[JustAnotherGen]

61. Me too

And we could call and other men like him who totally opposed his stupid assed wars 'cowards'. The hell?

Yet this little twinkie is getting paid and that's a problem? I thought - correct me if I'm wrong -

I thought it was the Iggy thing's customer base that was mostly white and the Banks thing's base that was black. Or did I mix them up?

At the end of the day she's probably said what 50% of her listeners think so all she's doing is getting paid getting paid!

[bravenak]

65. And I say, get that money, girl!

We need generational wealth built up too, dammit. I hope this makes her, mo money, mo money, mo money!
It made Kanye richer than sin too, why not her?

Yeah, Iggy had the white base and A was more underground, write her own raps, like me, you know I respect a poet for their art.

[JustAnotherGen]

70. I'm out of touch

I thought Iggy was the Bang Bang into the room singer - and then my young twenty something neighbor had to correct me.

But then I put on Jann Arden for her and she was waaaaaaaaay better thant Iggy and the girl who sings the Bang Bang song.

And all was right in the world.

[bravenak]

104. Oooh! I loooove that bang bang song.

And that all about that bass. Yeah!! Them girls be gettin it.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

100. Reparations are an absolute necessity, anything less is a crime.

[bravenak]

113. But it will never happen. I'm glad she is taking them however she can.

[Orsino]

22. Because love is better than hate.

I have no more specific or better answer to such a general question.

[geek tragedy]

23. I don't think anyone should love any group of people. Human beings are human beings.

I mean, yeah I know as a white guy some people of color are going to be mistrustful, resentful due to the roughly half-century of abuse their ancestors have experienced. I'd probably feel the same way.

But guess what effect that has on my life? Zero. It's not like I'm gonna crawl into a fetal position because some random person who doesn't know me and has no influence over my life thinks poorly of my race.

Because I'm white, so that stuff doesn't affect me in a real way, unlike the way it denies opportunities and injured black people in this country. Call it privilege, or just not being subject to the same racism and discrimination black folks are subject to. Same difference.

So if some black celebrity wants to talk shit about white people, big effing deal.

[pnwmom]

25. Not because white people, as a group, deserve it. But because . . .

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend."

Martin Luther King.

[bravenak]

28. It has not worked.

Maybe it's time to think about it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

467. Black people are the most loving and forgiving people on earth! We've already tried this shit!

It's not working!!

[CJCRANE]

26. Why should women like any men when as a group they are often sexist?

Why should Jewish people like any non-Jewish people when as a group they are often anti-semitic?

Why should muslims like any non-muslims when as a group they are often islamophobic?

Why should humans like any people when as group they are often misanthropic?

[bravenak]

35. Do you have an answer?

That's why i asked the question. Some peopke seemed offended that she doesn't like them. I wanna know why she should since most of her experience seems to have been with racists. Why are there so many of them? Why no campaign by white folks to end racism in their group? Just wanna know.

[CJCRANE]

44. Prove to us that you are not anti-semitic and islamaphobic.

If you are not part of those two groups then you are de facto bigoted against them and must justify yourself.

[bravenak]

49. Why? I'm an atheist. I don't ever care about religion.

Rarely think about religion at all.

[CJCRANE]

52. Being Jewish is also a culture and ethnicity. Being muslim is also a culture.

If you are not part of those groups, then by your your logic, you are de facto part of a group that is prejudiced against them.

Why should anyone who is from a muslim or jewish background like you when are part of a bigoted group?

You must justify yourself.

[bravenak]

53. This is about America and the black/white issue that came up.

I have no idea what you are talking about now, so, bye.

[CJCRANE]

57. It is the exact same logic that you are using. If you can't see that

then you won't be able to see why your post is divisive.

[bravenak]

62. Whatever.

Bull.

[jeff47]

90. Boy, you're doing a great job on building that strawman. (nt)

[CJCRANE]

101. That's the point. It's the same logic as the OP.

The OP is on the same level as "when did you stop beating your wife?"

[jeff47]

107. No, it really isn't.

You're claiming hatred is required. That is the strawman.

In the OP, hatred resulted but was not required.

[CJCRANE]

112. I'm not sure where you got that from. My point is the same.

Asking everyone in the perceived oppressor group to justify themselves.

[azmom]

281. I see it as the oppressed hating their oppressor. Not just

Random groups.

[cali]

38. yep. just about

[progressoid]

207. Yup. n/t

[pscot]

36. No reason

The toughest thing has got to be never knowing when it's going to turn ugly. I can't imagine it.

[stage left]

40. Personally

I don't think black people have any reason to love white people. Long(ish) story for a short question. My mother-in-law in the past few years has had to hire people to work in her home to help her take care of herself. Many of these people were black people who she went through like kleenex, talked to like curs, and treated like dirt. Now she's in a nursing home. The suprising thing is, the thing that really shocks me, is that some of the black people who worked for her ask us about how she's doing and even go to see her. !!!! Now admittedly, she also treated many white people like dirt, including me, her son, and her granddaughter. The difference is I wouldn't walk two steps to see her, I don't care how she's doing. I really don't understand how they can care at all when she was so nasty to them.

[bravenak]

45. I'm like that too.

I'm able to love a racist, but it took me years to get here. I can live their kids and feed them if they end up broke.

[stage left]

58. Well

I couldn't do it. If they hated me, I'd hate them right back, I'm afraid.

[bravenak]

74. Too many to hate. Causes health problems, imo.

I usually feel sad for them cause white is all they got left. No job, no money, no car, no food, no teeth. Too tragic. Cannot hate that.

[tularetom]

178. And there you have it - "Causes health problems"

There's nothing more destructive than hate. Oddly enough, free range, unfocused hate ultimately harms the hater with very little damage to the hatee.

Ms. Banks' hatred will have no noticeable impact on 99.99% of the white people she professes to hate. Most of them don't even know who she is and won't spend even one second worrying about the fact that she hates them.

Over the long term, hate will not benefit Ms Banks either. It may nurture her muse and give meaning to her music but it will eventually eat away at her sense of self and worth as a human being. And in the end, she, not the white people who crapped on her, will be the worse for it. Especially if it manifests itself in physical issues later in life.

It's cheap and easy to hate, but it takes maturity and courage to rise above it.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Love?

Other than love for humans and the human condition there is no reason.

I've spent part of my younger life not wanting to be white, trying to inject myself in other cultures, such as Native American. I never presume my past experience means anything to the Natives I meet today-- in fact I know it doesn't. A young white girl running out pretending to be something she wasn't, easily went back to her white world of invisable white standards.

So I don't expect a cookie jumping up and saying 'I'm an ally! I understand'. White responsibility is acknowledging the damage whiteness has caused, listening in respectful silence when appropriate. Entering discussions like this one, with an intent to learn, and most of all not telling black people what racism is, or how to feel about it. Ever.

Edit, to answer your question, love is possible where hate ends

[bravenak]

130. I agree. Love was just how I feel.

I was just shocked by the shock and anger at the gall of that black woman internalizing the racism and expelling hate back. It takes years to accept living under white supremacy as a black person. No escape anywhere in the world.

[ismnotwasm]

283. No there isn't

And white people aren't special for doing what is right and decent in the first place. I believe In white responsibility to acknowledge privledge, to repair harm--and not expect "rewards" love is a reward.

I think that's tough for some whites to understand, a kind of bitter pill, if you will. But you can't emphasize with what you don't--can't understand. You can sympathize and go out and be the best person you can regarding race relations. And work on it every day of your life, because that's how entrenched white privledge is, and that's how insidious racism is. Give it a opening and it crawls in the best of us.

[99Forever]

48. I see.

So you favor blaming an entire race of people for the actions of some of them.


I don't. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[KingCharlemagne]

50. Black people should not 'like' or 'love' white people, in my opinion. At least not

until reparations have been made for slavery and its legacy. A huge crime was done, a monstrous wrong was committed, that has not yet been made right, not even close. (The unemployment rate in Watts, CA was about 40% just a few months ago when I last checked.)

[ismnotwasm]

60. +1

[kwassa]

68. .

Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 03:12 PM - Edit history (1)

[KingCharlemagne]

128. Are you sure you intended to respond to me? If so, I am missing your

point entirely. (Won't be the first time I'm a bit slow on the uptake Care to elaborate?

[kwassa]

134. nah, I posted in the wrong spot ... sorry!

[treestar]

79. The guilty parties are dead by now

[KingCharlemagne]

125. The "guilty parties" may be dead (debatable), but their heirs continue to

benefit and profit from 3+ centuries of slavery and white supremacy. Even if the guilty parties are 'dead,' the society at large bears responsibility for making reparations, for healing the scars of the past. That has not been done yet, imo, not by a long shot.

[treestar]

396. What would constitute healing?

What has to be done?

[KingCharlemagne]

545. These are damned good questions and, as a white person, I'm not sure

I'm the person to be making suggestions necessarily, since I have benefited from white privilege and not suffered because of it.

That said, I think a serious national conversation about what 300+ years of white supremacy has done to blacks and native Americans should commence forthwith. At the risk of being blunt, I think maybe white Americans should just STFU for a bit and listen with humble hearts.

On a practical level, I think some form of socio-economic affirmative action might go a long way to starting to stitch together the social fabric anew. It seems self-evident that purely race-based forms of affirmative action have thus far offered little benefit to citizens living in depressed and marginal areas like Watts or other urban and rural blighted areas. But I offer that possibility tentatively, more as a recognition that reparations are long overdue and not so much as a specific prescription.

[Prism]

55. I guess today is defend homophobic bigots day

Really, this hateful celebrity is not a hill anyone should want to die on.

[JustAnotherGen]

71. That's why I didn't pay attention to those threads

I call them the flower girls -

Iggy don't like the black folk - well women.

And Banks don't like the gay folk.


And so I've got no time for either one of them.

And I don't think bravenak was defending Banks statements about the GLBT community. She's asking a good question-

Why is white america shocked when they hear a black person doesn't like them.

Now - I don't dislike white people- my mother is white - hell my husband is white! But I do give side eyes and a distrustful flinch on occasion.

[Prism]

80. Not shocking, just tiresomely divisive

Might as well ask me why I should love straight people. Or the religious. Or any group who made a gay kid's life harder.

Because we're human and a healthy, default stance is to see the good in others until proven otherwise.

But, I admit, I don't get DU's racial politics and tend to steer clear of them. They don't reflect what I've heard and learned from friends and family of color in my life. The dialogue is always dripping with thinly concealed hatred. Nobody has time for that.

[JustAnotherGen]

93. I agree

We do have some non minority members here that are very hostile to anything that minorities have to say - but it's only a small handful of people.

I've noticed one of them just finally got tombstoned today after three years. Three years. *sigh* He was huge part of threads that explored how blacks experience America getting derailed and turned into written punching circles. Not cool. I suspect some of that is going to die down. Join us in the AA Group whenever you want - as I'm very interested in intersectional experiences and learning from others who have experienced less than the best that America has to offer.

[Prism]

179. I'm content to observe and listen

I think it's important for people to have a safe space to express themselves. Even if I disagree strongly, it's vital the other person feels heard. Me running my mouth doesn't contribute that, lol.

I do lurk in various forums, and I love listening to my friends and family talk about their experiences as ethnic minorities. Yesterday, I had a two hour beer lunch with a Filipino friend, and he talked at length about Asian experiences in the San Francisco LGBT community. I learned a lot and treasure that we had that time together on a gorgeous day.

I wish DU was more like that. Less contention, more just a conversation. Where people felt more like friends and allies instead of opponents to be beaten down. =)

[JustAnotherGen]

273. You've got an ally in me

[Prism]

284. I'm glad we had this exchange =)

[Behind the Aegis]

493. Just so you know...

You really do have an ally in JustAnotherGen.

I am glad to see you back. You have been missed.

[Prism]

508. Thanks, BtA

Nice to see you again as well =)

[Sissyk]

406. I so agree with you, Prism.

I, too, am content to observe and listen. One reason is what I experience in real life (I have a black son that has black aunts and uncles we hang with) is total different than what you read here on DU. From both sides. EVERYTHING has to be, well....black or white. No shades of gray.

One thing I will not do here is throw one minority group under the bus while taking up for another minority group. We all live on this rock together and must learn to enjoy our one life we have to live.

ps. I know you dont know me, but you were missed in your absence. Glad to see you back.

[Prism]

509. The lack of nuance

Yes, that's the problem. But, that's what the entire internet seems like nowadays. You are either on the Forces of Good or allied the Dread Darkness of the Others. Ehhh, lol. When face to face with friends and family you care about, it's much harder to fall back into calcified positions of righteousness. Unless it's Thanksgiving. Then it's go time!

Thank you for the wb. I remember you well =)

[cali]

135. this is an excellent post.

[Doctor_J]

349. some of these intentionally divisive and incendiary threads get locked

Others are immune. I don't know why that is.

[demmiblue]

254. I agree. I hope you were not around to witness the defend Louis Farrakhan day(s). n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

414. Where in the OP was her homophobia defended?

I don't know Azealia Banks from an azalea but reading this thread I do understand why bravenak felt the need to start it and it's NOT to defend Banks on her nasty homophobia.

[Prism]

507. Let's put it in parallel terms

Imagine David Duke had nice things to say about income inequality. Then someone on DU started defending him and complaining he was being picked on because of his history. This thread is a continuation of previous thread where bravenek declared it was "pick on a black woman" day.

That, IMO, is out of bounds given Banks has a history of severe hate and bigotry. What Banks has had to say about LGBTers and others is just as virulent and hateful as anything Duke has had to say about minorities. She uses the f---t slur openly, proudly, and unapologetically towards gay men who are gender nonconforming.

She's an awful person. There are a thousand other African American writers, thinkers, and public figures who discuss these issues. Acting as if Banks is being attacked because of her race or her political thoughts misses the mark. People don't dislike her because she's a provocative thinker. They dislike her because she's hate-filled, self-interested, and nasty.

[Gormy Cuss]

532. Not at all parallel.

For one thing, income inequality <> race, not by a long shot. For another, bravenak is not defending Banks' homophobia.

Banks does sound like an awful person but she is in fact being attacked even on DU because of her race.

[Sheepshank]

63. I'll ask my lily white daughter why her brown boyfriend loves her...and get right back to you...not

what an assinine question.

You think my future son -in - law should like my daughter but hate all other white establishment?

[bravenak]

67. I said 'as a group, not individuals'.

I was not talking person to person.

[Sheepshank]

208. and I said, why should the guy that likes a white girl hate "her" whole group?

I think he is able to discern a little better than you can

[bravenak]

211. I have no idea why a guy who likes a girl SHOULD hate anybody.

[still_one]

64. People should not hate people period. As for you question, "what have white people done as a group"

done? How about what has society done? The civil rights movement was comprised of all races. The ACLU is comprised of all races. The Constitution and the amendments to it were to protect ALL races, religions, etc.

Your entire question is race baiting. Pointing out racism or prejudice and trying to get rid of it is what ALL races should strive for period

[bravenak]

154. It is a trust issue. And i explicitly said 'things we have not fought and died for'.

[AgingAmerican]

325. I see what you did there

Your 'exclusion' of everything that has been fought for, pretty much excludes everything, thus rendering your 'question' unanswerable.

As for hatred:

"Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is love correcting everything that stands against love." - Martin Luther King Jr.

Education is the key to breaking the cycle. Specifically college education.

[bravenak]

327. Calm down. My question was more about trust building and why there has not been enough of it.

Like why the drug war and the prison slavery. We both know it funds companies like the GEO group. 23 year old kids just know white folks vote FOR manditory minimuns. They see it as a war against them and it is. They see that they suffer most and they do. They are outraged and want you to be outraged just like if it was you.

[AgingAmerican]

334. Trust cannot exist alongside hatred

Where there is hatred, there can be no trust. Where there is trust, there can be no hatred. The two are mutually exclusive.

[bravenak]

384. We need to build trust then.

That's what we should work on. Trust and like you said, education.

[Democrats_win]

72. Because they don't want to be LIKE White People..?

In my mind, other than Native Americans, no other group has a more legitimate reason to dislike some Americans than African Americans.

Yet I have found that African Americans may be interested more in their own lives than in disliking the lives of people who have caused them such harm. Sometimes that is a good attitude. Yet in 2015 America, you really can't sit back and let the well-healed continue to walk all over you. I guess you can tell religious people that God hates them. Because truly, there is no good in most of the GOP people in this country. None. There is no question that the weight of the entire universe should fall on the heads of the GOP. They have, and will, cause so much suffering while gaining so much...that the universe will struggle to punish them to an adequate degree.

[bravenak]

183. Great answer.

Thank you.

[Oktober]

73. How do you even go outside?

[bravenak]

82. Door.

[kwassa]

85. Lol!

[Oktober]

328. Do you go around accusing everyone else of racism at every opportunity...

... or is that just a comfort of the internet from behind your keyboard?

[bravenak]

333. Are you always this outraged? Boy you are pissed at me aaaalll the time.

Don't let me rent space in your head. I won't pay up at the end of the month.

[Oktober]

343. You are confused...

I'm just curious how you get about on a day to day basis...

You either ...

a) Have all this outrage and share it with the world which would seem difficult

or

b) You are repressed and you just let it fly from behind the keyboard...

Either way... I'm good

[bravenak]

346. I think you are pissed.

You always seem so angry at me.
I feel for you being so upset at me. I still won't pay. For the space I rent in your head.

[Oktober]

348. It seems to please you...

... so I won't try to dissuade you...

When I see ignorance or bigotry I try to respond... I generally don't pay attention to the name...

If you happen to post the aforementioned ignorance or bigotry then that lies on you but feel confident in the fact that the only time you cross my mind is when that little 'my posts' flashes yellow and then *poof* you are gone....

[bravenak]

351. U mad bro?

[Oktober]

354. Why would I be?

[bravenak]

356. Dunno.

You started off mad, bro. And you still seem mad, bro.

[Oktober]

364. Still not sure why you would think that...

Sure you don't have me confused with someone else?

[bravenak]

368. Cause you seem mad everytime you say anything to me.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

378. No, you are FAR from good. Too bad you cant see that, most of us can.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

473. Black men and women are getting shot down in the streets and have to deal with fucking racism every

single day. If we are outraged, don't you think we have a right to be?

And note: If you are not black, then you have absolutely no idea what we face on a daily basis. No idea at all!

So if we are angry or outraged, I believe we have many justified reasons for it, whether you agree or not.

[treestar]

75. Hatred sucks

Eats away at the hater.

[Texasgal]

77. I don't need to be loved in my group.

I am part of a very large group of people that agree that racism exists and also part of a HUGE group that is working on trying to educate our young people against it.

That's my group. I'll bet I have a ton of followers too.

[bravenak]

149. I'd follow you.

[The2ndWheel]

78. Should is always a strong word

Nobody has an obligation or duty to love anyone else, for any reason. Don't even have to love yourself.

As long as we group people together though, we'll have issues. If we don't take every human interaction on a case by case basis, which is probably impossible in a mass society, then there's always collective guilt for what some smaller percentage of the whole did, and nobody gets anywhere.

I don't know if there's an answer to the larger question. We're still a tribal species, our attempt at a global society notwithstanding. Wherever anyone's particular line is, whether it's color, age, nation, political party, economic class, whatever, we always draw it somewhere. There's always a difference between you and the other person. Your group, and their group. I don't know if it's possible not to have that.

Why should black people love white people? Why should white people love black people? Why should anyone care about anyone else? Why should anyone care about someone they'll never meet? I don't know. There's no objective argument for it.

[bravenak]

147. I can understand that.

[Takket]

84. The civil rights Act of 1964?

[bravenak]

88. Not good enough. Drug war takes care of all of those advances.

[Takket]

116. so your saying it is just as bad for a black person now as it was before 1964?

[bravenak]

126. It is nearly just as bad.

More in prison, nearly as poor, 70% of children born out of marriage or stable relationships, over policed, several major race riots since then, stop and frisk. Yep. We got to vote, then in order to stem our freedom, they ramped up the drug war, which if you read the history of it, was based on race.

[prayin4rain]

87. I don't understand how I would love or hate any person or group of

people based on race, or gender, or age, etc. I don't see how anyone hates or loves "white people" or "muslim people" or "black people" or "poor people"..... I just might not fully understand the question.

[bravenak]

97. I know. It wasn't for you. Just for the folks shocked that a black woman in America might resent

white people for the white supremacy in America.

[prayin4rain]

105. Yeah, i thought about it more and i resent the 1% collectively,

because I see them as having all the power and not only not caring about the suffering of others, but actually doing everything they can to continue to hold onto the power that is hurting everyone else. So, i can totally see Banks feeling the same way about white people collectively.

[bravenak]

108. That was what I got from her too.

She is not a communications major like some around here.

[prayin4rain]

109. Agreed. :) n/t

[ND-Dem]

475. Except that the 1% actually holds power, through their money, their connections, and their

control of the media.

And "white people" as a group do not.

Nor is it only "white people" who are powerholders as individuals.

[treestar]

111. Good point

Nobody should love or hate a group as such. Hard to believe this attempt to excuse bigotry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. If you're a Christian, it's pretty straightforward

In Matthew, when asked "which is the great commandment in the law?", the Greek New Testament reports that Jesus answered,[2] "Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One; Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind",[3] before also referring to a second commandment, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."[4] Most Christian denominations consider these two commandments the core of the Christian religion.[5]

[adigal]

103. My daughter, who is white, has a very good friend, who is black

This friend tells her that she is the only white girl she likes and that most black people hate white people. (I am only the messenger here, don't flame me.)

I have to say, this made me sad. I wish we could get beyond color, like my daughter and her friend have done. But I can understand the hatred for white people, because even when we are angry about the death of young unarmed black men, how many of us will leave our comfortable lives to put ourselves at risk protesting with our black neighbors??? Not many of us.

[bravenak]

152. Thank you.

It's more a matter of trust than hate.

[RedCappedBandit]

110. Judging people as a group is illogical, regardless of direction

[tblue37]

114. This. The outrage I hear whenever a black person dares to comment on

how she feels about our society's oppression, abuse, and discrimination against black people, which are not just crimes committed in the past but ongoing and still pervasive in the present, makes me want to throw up my hands and succumb to hopelessness. *I* feel like that, even though as a white person I don't have to overcome such oppression, suppression, insolence, and insult day by day, hour by hour, year after year after year.

I can't begin to wrap my mind around the stress and pain such continual experience must provoke in those who are directly victimized by it. I appreciate your willingness to keep *trying* to inform and educate, despite the inevitable obnoxious pushbacks by the clueless and the intentionally obtuse. Every time I see a post by a black DU member that suggests he or she feels too exhausted to keep at it here, or when I realize that I haven't seen many (or any) posts by one of my favorite DUers for a while, I get worried that we have lost another member we could not afford to lose.

It isn't only black DU members that we lose because they run out of patience for dealing with crap, of course, but I have noticed that too many black DUers have either stopped posting, or drastically reduced their activity on DU.

I found DU in summer of 2004 by following a link on smirkingchimp.com to an H2OMan post, and he remains one of my favorite posters. But you, Mr.Scorpio, 1StrongBlackMan, and BumRushDaShow (among others, of course) are also on that list, and I fervently hope you won't abandon us, even though I understand why you might be tempted to.

No, black people have no reason to love white people or the culture of oppression that whites have created and extended in this country. I am just glad that the black people I know are more tolerant, patient, and forgiving than we have a right to expect them to be. Thank you for that!

[bravenak]

119. Thank you for understanding my point.

Whenever somebody says somebody doesn't like them I ask why and what have to done to make yourself likeable. It usually pisses them off at first, but if they think about it, they come back and we talk it out.

[tblue37]

136. Please see my post #132, in response to just that sort of reflexive outrage. nt

Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)

[tblue37]

228. Oops! I meant post #132, not #137. nt

[azmom]

307. It's interesting how we are getting lots of MLK

Comments. Makes me wonder if they ever read what Malcom X had to say about race.

[adigal]

318. And the more racist one is, the more resentment at when a black person

Speaks his or her mind.

My mother gets all up in arms about thing like this. "See, they hate us, and we're just trying to help them!" Just clueless. Not seeing the big picture at all.

Happily, the racism in the families of myself and my husband stop with us. We refused to allow the grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins to infect our three kids with their hatred. My kids really don't think about color at all when they meet people and I am so thankful and grateful that we moved away so we were able to foster that.

[LittleBlue]

118. Nothing really. Loving a group of people is illogical

The same goes for hating groups of people. It isn't about "what have they done for me?" It's more about "what future do I have if I hate whites?"

Whites control the money and power in America. And that is true globally. So really, there is no future in it. Azealia Banks sells most of her concert tickets and online music to whites, her record company is owned and managed by whites. She probably lives around mostly whites if she lives in an upscale part of town.

Ultimately hating (far and away) the most powerful, wealthy and influential group on earth just doesn't benefit her.

On a personal level, aside from the economics of it, hate is an ugly, destructive force that harms the minds of those who feel it. Love, or at least acceptance, benefits everyone.

[bravenak]

120. I agree.

[prayin4rain]

121. Well, I resent the 1% so I guess I'm in the same boat. n/t

[LittleBlue]

129. I hate what they do

I try not to hate them. There are undoubtedly many lovely people among the 1%. Hatred is, to me, about bettering ourselves because ultimately it neither achieves worthy goals nor does it create overall progress.

[prayin4rain]

145. Agreed. But I think Banks meant that she hates what they do, too. n/tk

[LittleBlue]

162. Probably. I don't blame her

Her race was used by whites as disposable labor. It's understandable that she harbors some hatred, whether it is directed at us or at what we do. At least she is open about it. Open hatred can be discussed, but hidden hatred is more insidious.

This ironically puts Azealia in the most honest minority of people.

[prayin4rain]

203. Agreed. n/t

[guillaumeb]

122. quick question or trick question?

I do not love anyone as a group. I do not like anyone as a group. A group is a collection of individuals. Some are racists, some are not. Bravenak is not talking about "personally" hating all white people. She is talking about whites as a group. and her question is valid, if a bit difficult to respond to.

That you have forgiven your step-dad says a lot about you as a person. Children expect the home to be a safe place, and when that refuge is taken away it has to be devastating. That you made the choice to forgive him is fantastic, because it helps you to begin to heal.

But yes, hate is an appropriate word. Blacks have been treated as 3/5ths of a person since this country was founded. The first slaves were brought over in 1619. Nearly 400 years of hatred and bad treatment based on pigment and justified by a perverted version of Christianity and "race science" that insisted that blacks were not really human.

But my feeling is that hatred is like acid in that it burns and corrodes the one using it. The forgiveness that you gave to your step-father must be given to everyone. It will be difficult. (I call myself a Christian, but forgiveness is still a difficult thing for me to embrace, especially for someone like Dick Cheney.) But I must do it for my mental health and you are obviously intelligent enough to realize it will work for you, Bravenak.

now stop with the difficult questions.

[bravenak]

141. I have moved passed the hate phase years ago.

But I empathized with young people like her. It took me years and it will take her some time too.
I like the difficult questions because I want peopl to stop and think when they hear stiff like she said and ask themselves why? Not take it personally, but to think about it. And change the way we react to young black people like that. Listen to them, respond with respect even when you feel hurt, empathize, and try to change the world so that another generation of young blacks don't grow up either hating their own color, or hating white people. Just saying it was in the past is not helpful, because it is still with us deeply in the now.
Racism affects the black community in more ways than just from outside. We treat each other different based on skin tone. I'm medium to light, I get on just fine. Light skinned blacks get treated better by black people just like they do by white people, because we take our cues from white people who have been doing that since light skins got to work in the Big House while dark skins worked in the field. The racism ripples down from tge white community through minority communities. I have an hispanic name and speak spanish, light skin hispanics call me names in spanish until they know I speak spanish, but there is still a light skin dark skin thing. I'm the dark one with them so I know how dark skin blacks feel. It's all fucked up. And some internalize it and shout out in bursts of anger. I cannot understand why people don't understand her pain and just want to focus on her diatribes.

[bravenak]

161. There are more white racists than there are black people in AMERICA. No.

There are too many white racists.

[bravenak]

170. Sheer numbers.

[bravenak]

176. Far fewer black HATE whites even though many have GOOD reason.

With us it is more a trust issue than hate.

[bravenak]

189. There is no black KKK. You are wrong.

We have trust issues. We move TO white communities, they move away. You do know this right?

[bravenak]

205. When did the panthers burn white people and lynch them?

And when did the NOI start lynching white people?

[bravenak]

220. Sorry. The KKK is WAY worse. They are PROUD of their history of burning negroes.

You may as well just give up.

[bravenak]

244. You never answered the question in my op, tho.

You go first.
I'll wait patiently for your answer.

[bravenak]

253. No.

I'll repeat. " what have white people as a group done since slavery to make black people trust/love them" you can give and example based on either, trust or love. Waiting.

[bravenak]

264. Whatever.

[bravenak]

255. That is called answering a question with a question.

[bravenak]

280. Then why are you here on this thread? Something attracted you.

[ismnotwasm]

345. Bye bye

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

492. They finally got rid of this guy?

I alerted on one of his posts in this thread and the jury saw fit to keep it. Glad the MIRT team felt otherwise.

On Thu Mar 19, 2015, 04:39 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

I'll ask it another way then
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6387356

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

New Black Panther party? That's a right wing strawman meme.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Mar 19, 2015, 04:56 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I just read about a black man being lynched in Mississippi. I don't want to hear shit from some racist fuck about the New Black Panthers. Vote to hide, but that is only because it's the strongest remedy available.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: if we hid every strawman argument on DU the threads would be half empty. can't hide it, doesn't rise to the bar but looks like they may be headed there. teachable moment ?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "Justalovetroll"

Clean up aisle one! MIRT! AverageJoe90 is now a Beetle!

Thank you.

[NOLALady]

225. Seriously?

Did I miss the part where Black Panthers participated in lynching rituals?

[ismnotwasm]

341. So what?

Blacks have been subjected to systemic racism in America for over 400 years. The question has nothing to do with reactionary, or desperate groups.

The KKK as a white supremist organization had more power and political clout than the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam ever could even think about. Why? Because they were white.

White people rule the nation, white people make the laws. White people own the power.

[Damansarajaya]

133. I'll let Dr. King answer that one:

True non-violent resistance is not unrealistic submission to evil power. It is rather a courageous confrontation of evil by the power of love, in the faith that it is better to be the recipient of violence than the inflictor of it, since the latter only multiplies the existence of violence and bitterness in the universe, while the former may develop a sense of shame in the opponent, and thereby bring about a transformation and change of heart.

Non-violent resistance does call for love, but it is not a sentimental love. It is a very stern love that would organize itself into collective action to right a wrong by taking on itself suffering

(My Trip to the Land of Gandhi)

*****

Arguing that violent revolution was impractical in the context of a multiracial society, he concluded that: ‘‘Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. The beauty of nonviolence is that in its own way and in its own time it seeks to break the chain reaction of evil’’ (King, Where, 62–63).

[bravenak]

146. Not everyone us Dr. king. Not everyone is able to handle white supremacy.

[upaloopa]

137. If you treat people as a race and not as an individual

you are guilty of racism. Why should anyone care about you.

Your entire question should be rejected.

[bravenak]

144. Reject it then.

[ismnotwasm]

337. You are redefining racism in this context

The question is valid

[Rex]

645. But she is talking about a race of people and NOT individuals. How is that so hard to understand?

The discussion is not why YOU might like or dislike a group of people. The discussion is why one race would like or dislike another entire race of people. It has nothing to do with personas or individuals.

IOW, she is talking about groups in society. I think a lot of DUers are missing that point.

[F4lconF16]

148. I'm not going to read the other posts on this thread.

I don't think I'll like them. But to answer your question, nothing.

I just finished reading through "A People's History of the United States" as well as "Black Liberation and Socialism" (both excellent books, btw). I don't see a single thing that whites have done as a whole to help change the situation of black people in the US. The Civil Rights Act was a sell-out that didn't really change much, there's a whole new Jim Crow (not that the old one ever really left), and time and time again, promises were broken, and black people were told to sit down and be quiet.

There hasn't been a damn thing. The closest we came was some of the socialist movements from the very late 1800s into the 1940s, and even those weren't widespread movements. Hell, at the time I think the KKK had close to ten times the number of members.

But yeah. I don't really see any reason for any minorities to trust white majorities in this country. There's been nothing but abuse and halfhearted efforts for equality that are always limited in scope and repealed as soon as possible, if not simply ignored. (And of course those efforts were almost always because of black agitation and sacrifice, too, so even those are pretty terrible examples.)

[bravenak]

151. You get an A. Perfect. That is exactly what I mean.

[1StrongBlackMan]

153. Don't you know ...

what have White people done as a group, not individuals - as a group, ...

Everything positive is group attributable; whereas, everything negative is owing to the individual!

So, as a group ... people born in the 1980s and beyond get to claim credit for the entire Civil Rights Movement, while none for the SAEs and their racist next door neighbor.

[bravenak]

159. Glad you read my mind.

People keep saying the civil rights movement, even though, I said " things we have NOT fought and died for'. I do not get it.

[Enrique]

156. i don't know, but

but I don't think many black people hate white people like she said she does. But then again, how would I know. Maybe a lot of black people do hate like that and they keep it to themselves.

[bravenak]

347. Fear not hate.

[Jefferson23]

158. I don't know why they should, given the history and present conditions. My guess is that

often those who are discriminated against have a larger capacity for compassion
and empathy than those who have lived the least of discrimination. That has been
my observations anyway and we should not as a society expect this. The ones
who are doing the discriminating are the ones who should be working harder to
remedy it.

[bravenak]

166. I agree, thank you Jefferson.

You always get straight to it.

[Jefferson23]

390. You're most welcome and a great question you posed for all to consider.

Wonderful thread, 388 replies...you get people thinking.

[fxstc]

160. Because everyone should love everyone

The current white citizens of America did not have slaves, and the current black Americans weren't slaves. So its pointless to expect someone that did not have slaves to do anything special to someone that were never slaves.
Black lives matter, but not any more than any color lives matter. they all matter.

[bravenak]

164. Even the 50 million white racists that the rest of the white people largely ignore as a problem?

Why should we love them (the 50 million racists) or trust the people (non racists) who let them run wild and savage our communities?

[EX500rider]

221. "Even the 50 million white racists"

How exactly are you coming up with that figure?

[bravenak]

424. Oh, it's you. Hai.

[EX500rider]

610. Hi....I'll take is as no, you just pulled that figure out of the air.

[bravenak]

612. I was being kind and conservative in my estimate.

[fxstc]

520. everyone

look up the word everyone in websters and see if the 50 million fit into "everyone" and get back to me.

[Dorian Gray]

163. I think each

individual should be judged on the character of his or her person. To do otherwise is rude and horrible.

Each human being is complex and should be judged independently of a group.

[bravenak]

173. It would be nice but it does not hapoen that way.

Stop and frisk. That was a law in new york city recently targeting black and brown youths. They got collective punishment by law and we still have de facto stop and frisk all over America. Where is the white community on this issue? The black and briwn community have been fighting for years and we get silence from the white community. The drug war is racists and applied in a racist way. Where are the white community leaders to help us? It is a trust issue between the sides.

[Dorian Gray]

188. That's not true

a lot of members of the white community have been against stop and frisk. And finally it's been repealed. It was a horrible law, and it's been rightfully turned over. The white mayor was very vocal against it and thankfully repealed the stupid law.

Look, I live in a very white neighborhood in brooklyn. I know that there is a racial divide. I get why she feels the way she does, but it makes me sad and I don't think it's right. As Brooklyn gentrifies, tensions and anger is rising here.

[bravenak]

191. There are way more of you so there should be millions of you in the streets.

In all places where the system is racist. I do not see it. It is a trust issue.

[Dorian Gray]

214. I can't speak for anyone else other than myself

but I saw a lot of white people marching recently in response to the Eric Garner murder in NYC. We (NYers) marched together in NYC and Brooklyn.

[bravenak]

484. I think they should do it everywhere.

That would build trust.

[Dorian Gray]

519. yes

it would be a start

[totodeinhere]

171. Hate is a destructive emotion that we should all try to avoid.

How can we sanction this young woman's hate then turn around and call conservatives haters? Hate is hate.

[NaturalHigh]

177. You're not obligated to like anyone...

but if you plainly state that you don't like an entire race, as Miss Banks did, you're a racist. Calling her out on comments like that (and many others), however, is not racist.

Azalea Banks has every right to love or hate whomever she likes and to express whatever racist or homophobic views she may hold. What she doesn't have is the right to not be criticized.

[Bluenorthwest]

180. "even if i am a homophobe… so wat? i still make more $ than you.. still have an extra hole..

.. and still own everything."-- A. Banks

"you guys are all faggoots.... May you drown in faggotry."- A. Banks

I believe those comments are very worthy of criticism. To me, people who use openly hateful slurs repeatedly in public are of no value as social commentators. Pat Buchanan used to say David Duke had some good ideas if you just looked past the racism. I did not agree with Pat either.

[one_voice]

182. There is a saying that goes...

Forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace. Seems like she could use a little peace--we all probably could.

That being said, if she feels 'better' hating white people as a group rather than hating past deeds and the current institutionalization of racism, then she should do some soul searching imo. There have been many white people that have fought and continue to fight against that. Know the individuals.

Her slurs against gay people are unacceptable and cruel. There's no reason for that, it's just plain wrong. Also the need to call out fat people, also unnecessary and cruel.

Anyway that's my take on it.

[bravenak]

204. Yes. She is an asshole, no doubt.

My question is more of why the surprise when white people find out that young black people don't like/trust them as a GROUP. I'm sure she has white friends just like all racists have a black friend at work. But it goes deeper than that.
There are others like her that fear and simply don't trust white people. And white people seems shocked that they are not treated as individuals. We feel the same way and have forever, but it affects us worse and harsher. Our daily lives. Why the surprised that trust and love or like is not automatic coming from a young black person. It took me years to trust that white people were not goung to bring slavery back, especially when I was young during the riots. I still take them on a case by case basis and won't even try with many of them, and they don't bother with me. As a group, I see from them, manditory minimums, drug war, stop and frisk, things voted for by the majority that harms us most. I do not see why nobody understands her pain or point. Beyond her bigotry if you read what she said she has damn good points. We don't discount the truths of the founding fathers words because of THEIR racism but we ignore her point. She hated growing up under white supremacy. So did I. Most white folks never noticed there was a problem. So we don't trust. It is not automatic. Something happened to make her that way and it went on for years.

[one_voice]

279. I understand what you're saying...

it's along the same lines as a woman that's been abused/raped why in the world would she ever trust a man again. Why would the child that's been abused by a priest ever trust the church again.

Of course what you're talking about is on a much larger scale and impacts so many more people. I get where you're coming from.

As I've said before I have multiracial family, with various age groups....young to very old. The conversations we have are fascinating, heartbreaking and promising all at the same time.

Whether it's justified, right, wrong or otherwise it does bother me when an entire group of people are vilified (that may be the wrong word, I will apologize now if it is).

Again, this example is no where near what you're talking about, but a small personal experience of a group of people being judged...

My son was dating a girl. My husband is Puerto Rican. The girls mother was jumped by a group of Puerto Rican girls when she was young and she had other bad experiences with them (Peurto Ricans) therefore she didn't trust/like any of them. So my son was a POS as far as she was concerned and she said as much. Long story short she grew to love him. This girls extended family also said some pretty nasty stuff about Puerto Ricans, and though it worked out in the end, it didn't erase the nastiness and hurt that was caused. Having to watch my son go through that....

When I was growing up I was pretty much an outcast, well my brother and me. All because my mom loved and married a black man. My black & bi-racial siblings were accepted my the black community. But my white brother and me, we weren't accepted by white or black. It was hell for many years. The cruelty. Unreal. Most days were spent fighting. I was put out of two schools. Eventually things got better.

Seeing my mother spit on, by white people and black people. The names my dad were called--by both groups.

The black folks didn't like the whites and vise versa and there we were; kids caught in the middle of all that group hate. It sucks.

Like I said, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. But hate has touched my life too closely--as I know it has yours. Which is why you feel the way you do. It hurts my heart in a way I can't put into words. I just have to have faith that the young people from both sides try heal this divide.

I know I went off on a tangent here a little, sorry about that.

[bravenak]

291. That was good. A good post.

I think thats why I want people to just stop and think why before they pile on. If somebody is angry it always helps to ask them why. Too many people get bullied and some of them turn INTO bullies. She acts like a homophobe but sleeps with women (self hate for real, you know how the black community treats our lgbt, baaad), says she hates white people when she really wants THEM to LOVE her and treat her like one of them.
I feel bad for your mom and you. I know how it is and can be when a black man brings a white woman home. (I won't say specifics, but I guess the women were worse than the men, right). It's mostly a psychological things with black people. We reject because we have gotten so much rejection. It's hard to knock on every door and keep getting them slammed in your face and keep going on trying. I remember how they used to treat my white friend when I brought them to the hood. Like pieces in a museum or an art gallery or a zoo. I literally had to tell people to act normal, treat her likes she's black and calm down. I know what you mean.

[one_voice]

360. Thanks. Your comment about taking your white friends to the hood made me laugh...

I lived in a predominately black area (it was about 65/35) at the beginning of busing. So it was brown skinned people--black and hispanic that lowered the walls to me first. Eventually the white folks did too.

One of my first best friends was a Muslim. I still remember her. Her name was Amira. She wore the headscarf and the full skirt (sorry I know those aren't the correct names) and she was an outcast. The tow of us were quite a pair...a little white girl and a black Muslim. Her mom got such a kick out of that. LOL..

Down the street from where I lived there was this huge house and multiple Muslim families lived there. Lots of kids. They opened their home to us--me and my siblings, man we had so much fun there. See here's another reason I can't do the group hate thing. All the Muslims I grew up knowing were kind to me and my family.

I'm watching Sharpton right now and the young man from UVA that was roughed up/beat by the cops is being talked about. His lawyer just read a statement. Part of it said--paraphrasing the young man here: I will have the scars for a while and I will have distrust, but I will also remember that this was just two cops and that can't be more than the community we've built here. And the support I've had....

I was like yes--that's it exactly.

As I said in my first response, I think Ms. Banks needs to find some inner peace. Living with all this hate is not the way to do that.

[bravenak]

366. I think she need therapy.

Thanks for reminding me about Sharpton. I'll go watch it now. I don't do the group hate thing either and I don't hate people who do. I just know they are either damaged or ignorant. I take it on a case by case basis since everyone is different.

[malaise]

185. It's the same shock expressed at Rev Wright's understanding of America

that is merely based on his life experiences. It's as is 'we' should be ever so grateful - for what - slavery, jim crow, ganja prisons, stop and frisk, etc. etc.

[bravenak]

186. +1

They tryin to have a sistah soljah moment.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

212. Which is why I did a thread the other day about Wright...BTW, reverse the roles past 200+ yrs

and white folks would do more than express their dislike for what happened to them.

WAY more...

We KNOW that just from watching the privilege here on DU and elsewhere and how they act when NOTHING has been done to them, like all the rightwing terrorists in America now.

And again, I am white, so all you outraged white people spare me the outrage.


BTW, most of the world, which is BROWN, isnt confused about who is who and what is what on this topic

just sayin

[malaise]

393. +1,000

;fistbump
;

[LiberalAndProud]

190. "As a group" is the problem, isn't it?

When we interact with each other based on what the "group" has done, we fail to actualize the dream, don't we. If we are really trying to bring about a world where we are judged by the content of our character, this question, in context seems counterproductive. I'd like to work to bring down barriers based on race and creed. The dream seems as distant as ever, and that makes me heartsick.

[bravenak]

192. As a group i think something needs to be done.

As a group only white people have the power to change things and rebuild the trust.

[LiberalAndProud]

224. I have struggled to try to figure out how to change someone else's mind

about these things. I never have found an answer. I acknowledge that as a group we have not earned "love." It seems to me that the hate amplifies itself as we reflect it back on each other, and that is ultimately destructive. As an individual, I do the best I can. I promise to think about any ideas you have on changing group behavior, even as I continue to work on myself.

[heaven05]

194. excellent question

I'm working on it.............. this can't be a quick one. It demands thought. Something I'm not seeing from some of the 'usual suspects'.

[bravenak]

217. Let me know what you come up with.nt

[heaven05]

289. I did, I hope it's clear enough

post 287

[Donald Ian Rankin]

195. Take out the words "black" and "white", and ask the question again.

The answer will be the same. N.T.

[cry baby]

198. Humans should love humanity. Why single out "groups"?

Hopefully, humanity will evolve away from putting human beings into "groups".

I always feel sad when is see someone divide people onto "groups" then label a group as bad, evil, apathetic, violent, or any other adjective one can come up with.

There are good and caring people in the "group" of humans and there are shitty and mean and selfish people in that same "group" of humans.

[Starry Messenger]

199. Not a single reason really.

Not a week goes by without some white idiot says something hateful and cringeworthy about race or Black people in this country.

[bravenak]

213. Thank you.

[valerief]

201. What have rich white people, as a group, done for anyone but themselves? nt

[bravenak]

210. Nothing.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

219. Created millions of jobs

at $7 an hour with no benefits

[valerief]

223. Nope. Customers did that. nt

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

226. I added "at $7 an hour and no benefits" but even with that, you are right...I stand corrected

They create an economic condition that should make all americans so angry that they all go out and buy pitchforks, but just enough of us value hatred of minorities and gays more than eating

[valerief]

227. Yes, I got your point with the $7/hour. The rich white men did that, of course, once the customers

created the jobs.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

230. Your response is very valuable to me because as a business person my first reaction to

the question was what I wrote, but i WAS WRONG

they create nothing..they REACT to market forces and supply and demand and since the system is rigged in their favor, they have the capital to make it happen

[liberal_at_heart]

206. The greatest change in the world usually comes from those willing to love their enemies.

You can love and still stand with your dignity and refuse to be treated less than human. Those that do are usually the ones that make the most profound change.

[bravenak]

209. I like that.

[liberal_at_heart]

222. Thank you. I've always been fascinated with how much grace and dignity African Americans carried

themselves with during slavery and during the fight for freedom and civil rights. They never let their oppressors take their humanity away from them and never lost the capacity to love either. That must have taken tremendous strength.

[Android3.14]

231. Useless clickbait

Your OP is unhelpful to creating an egalitarian society. In fact, any one with a gram of commonsense can see that your question is a deliberate effort to provoke racial tensions and calls into doubt your actual motivation.

All you are trying to do is find a reason to call someone a racist.

[bravenak]

242. Thanks for the kick!

[sheshe2]

232. I would have to say, nothing.

White people as a group ( of which I am one) have done absolutely nothing to let black people, as a group, like or trust us.

However, bravenak.... I luv ya and will take your back any day.

[bravenak]

239. I love you to.

[chknltl]

235. Solution to racism here:

Turn all the racists black! Yep, one morning, everyone that has ever made a racist remark or told a racist joke on their cell phones, (which is one of the reasons we libs monitor 'em), will wake up black! As a Progressive, (I hear that we write the 'librul agenda' and hypnitized all the sciency types into believing in global warming ),-as a Progressive I am officialy adding this to the Liberal Agenda. Guess what clever solution I thought up for the homophobes too....bwahahaha!

(I dunno, should i add the sarcasm thingy here?)

[bravenak]

237. I'm with that!!!! Best solution!

It needs to be in the platform!!

[chknltl]

375. Platform smatform, it's officially in the Liberal Agenda now!

One day soon, racists everywhere are gonna wake up, walk into their bathroom, notice a black man in the mirror, unload a full clip from their AK-47s into that mirror and call the cops! I'm thinking it might not turn out pretty after the cops arrive looking for a black man lurkin' in a white man's home, especially if the caller IS the black man who just shot up the white man's bathroom!

Fox viewers will never see it coming! bwahahahahaha

[bravenak]

380. Please!! I'm dying!!

They'll be tackling their friends in Walmart for open carrying.
This should be a book or a movie. I'll end up stealing it, so you remember to sue me. Get your 10 percent if it goes big.

[chknltl]

392. Thanks

Thought of this last night before drifting off to sleep. Was gonna test market it in my own OP but found yours while reading DU on my phone at the Food Bank a bit ago, (Yeah, I know...your offer of 10% sounds great right now) Well maybe I may stick up an OP titled "Liberal Agenda: EXPOSED!" anyway, who knows....Cecil B DeMill, about that close-up.....

Thanks for giggling....especially when the topic at hand is as horrible as America's ongoing history with racism/inequality.

(You know, this might make for a great SNL skit too, hmmm now you got me thinking!)

[bravenak]

394. I would love it on SNL...

I think we should spread the liberal agenda far and wide and say the Obama Kenyan Voodoo Magic will hit them in the middle of the night.
If i wasn't a lazy ass I could write the book. But apparently I prefer endless banter on DU.

[chknltl]

418. I just sent a potential DU OP to your inbox

I would very much like your input. I suffer manic/depression. While in manic phase, (like now), I tell lotsa jokes...some good some stupid. What I hope from you is to let me know if I am being over the top with this, a common danger faced by all manic/depressives. We tend to come up with tons of grandiose plans and schemes, it is actually one of the symptoms of the mania phase. Robin Williams harnessed it to pretty good effect before it eventually killed him. I THINK what I wrote is funny, DUZY worthy at the very least but I know enough about this condition... soooo... let me know.

[bravenak]

419. I read it.

I'm re reading it and I gotta go grocery shopping. I wonder if your manic depression is like my bi polar? We could be fraternal twins of happy misery.

[chknltl]

423. It's the same thing accdg to my shrinks at the VA

I have to go walk my dog but if you like or if you might find it useful, I can answer anything about this stuff from what I learned in classes given to us Vets who signed up for them. (It does not make me an expert and I am a bit weirded out about the thread hijack-even though it is your OP but I have no problem discussing stuff I've learned or from my own experiences openly).

[DesMoinesDem]

236. Quick Translation... Why should black people not be racist?

What would you think if someone wrote this:
Why should white people love black people? What have black people done as a group, not individuals - as a group, to make white people, as a group, like them and trust them in America?

Racist BS like this OP shouldn't be on DU.

[bravenak]

240. This is racist? AMERICA is racist, lol.

For you ^^

[bravenak]

263. Your post is ill concieved and deviod of thought.

I will ignore you now. For calling me racist. Good bye.

[bravenak]

312. Still think you are not that awesome yourself.

[bravenak]

313. And you sound like Hannity. Reverse Racism!!! The scourge!!! Bane of Anerica!!

[DesMoinesDem]

387. Yep, I'm just like Hannity because I'm offended by racism. If you say so.

And you sound like a... racist.

[bravenak]

388. Where have I ever said I hate white people?

[DesMoinesDem]

434. You started a thread that tried to justify racism (i.e. hatred of an entire race of people)

It the races were switched this post would fit in just fine at Stormfront.

[bravenak]

437. Why would you think I started the thread to Justify racism.

Our society is white supremacist. I'm asking why should she not hate that and by extension it's beneficiaries? It does not imply endorsement. We are two different people, she and I. What I'm doing is asking as question and you cannot answer it. So you call me racist even though it's not true. I never once said I hated white people. Never.

[Skip Intro]

452. Indeed it is. n/t

[BlueSky3]

246. Understanding may not be possible but empathy is.....

I don't think there's any reason for black people to love white people. I think the young black woman's comments come from a place of deep pain, and anyone who's felt a lot of it can feel for/with her. Like you, bravenak, I hope she can grow past it for her sake, so the suffering doesn't ruin any happiness she may have.

Years ago I was traveling through a small southern town with my kids who had been fighting non stop in the back seat. We made a pit stop at a convenience store and a man behind the counter saw my face as I went by. When we got up to the counter he said, "honey, don't let the Devil steal your joy."

That was a real wake-up call for me. He was black, I am white, but he reached out to me in compassion and shared this truth. I saw him again on a later trip and found out he was a part-time preacher at a local church.

I've spent a lot of time letting the devil steal my joy from the sexism I've experienced as a woman. I still do, whenever I read about some of the atrocities that are daily going on in the world and the blind hate so many men feel for women. It doesn't keep me from loving my husband and the good men in my life.

Like a lot of other people have said on this thread, hate is corrosive. I feel for the woman you wrote about. Here is my only idea about what to do: have empathy for others, respect others, and whatever race you are, let people of other races know you love them. One person at a time, one day at a time, that's all most of us can do.

[bravenak]

268. Thank you, great response.

Welcom to DU. I hope you stay awhile.

[BlueSky3]

319. Thanks.

Thanks, bravenak.

[abelenkpe]

248. One should decide who they love or hate

On an individual basis. Generalizing an entire group based on religion, color, gender, etc is never a good idea.

[bravenak]

265. True.

[secondvariety]

252. My family loves me.

If some flash in the pan pop star wants to hate me because I'm white, who cares?

[bravenak]

259. You should not care. Good that you don't.

[Matterate]

257. Every major civil rights achievement in the U.S. has been made possible by

white, liberal allies.

That's just an indisputable fact.

[bravenak]

260. I said things WE (black people) have not fought and died for. We fought and died for that.

[Jim Lane]

428. That was the part of your question that I found unrealistic.

The Civil Rights Act was passed mostly by whites but only after much struggle (including fighting and dying) by blacks. The same is true of abolition.

So what your question amounts to is: "Name some great problem that affected blacks, like slavery or Jim Crow, but about which blacks did nothing, choosing instead to just sit back and wait for whites to address it." Well, you're right, no one can point to an issue that satisfies those criteria, but that's hardly surprising.

You could say that it was a white guy who invented the phonograph. That benefited blacks. I don't know enough about the history of science to know if any blacks were involved in laying the groundwork that made Edison's work possible, but there was probably no fighting and dying.

Every race has its heroes and its villains (as does every gender, every sexual orientation, etc.). Trying to assess an entire group isn't particularly informative.

[bravenak]

436. Ok.

[doc03]

266. Why should white people love black people?

[bravenak]

269. That is not an answer.

[doc03]

277. I think that is the answer your question deserves. The question itself is

racist. Why should anyone hate or love anyone because of their race? I know people of all races that I like and dislike as an individual.

[CreekDog]

669. I thought you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025156615

[doc03]

672. I come back here some, the Discussionist is populated with

right wing nut jobs. DU is like a mirror image of the Discussionist, so they both pretty much suck.

[byronius]

271. Answer: Because it's the only thing that helps us grow.

I truly understand your frustration. And I appreciate this post.

[bravenak]

306. Thank you.

You're right, btw.

[NOLALady]

272. As a group,

I see no reason for trust.

[bravenak]

305. Yeah, it's the trust part. I wish we could trust, but we know better.

[AngryAmish]

274. I just want to point out that everyone loves me.

I am the best.

[bravenak]

297. True!

[mmonk]

285. To be better than the racists.

[bravenak]

295. Yep. Good reason. I like it.

[raven mad]

296. In love, I don't think there are any "shoulds", bravenak -

As a group, I agree that we whites have done a shit job of earning the trust or confidence of blacks. I'm glad, however, that most of us seem to be trying.

Of course, at 40 below in a parka with a ski mask, who even knows if you're male or female, let alone your skin color? (That's a lol, and not a jab at your question. BTW, how about that Iditarod finish - something else this year, wasn't it? )

Also, I understand why you're asking - and it's difficult for me when I'm automatically disliked because of my skin color, because I'm not, really not used to it up here. There's much more anti-Native prejudice that I see than black v. white. And that's just as sad.

[bravenak]

304. Yeah I think it's more of a trust issue myself.

I think about that too. How nobody knows in the winter time what color you are until they get yr clothes off. By then it don't matter!

[raven mad]

315. There, we agree 100%, dear friend!

And your second sentence is perfect! LOL! Still giggling!

[bravenak]

321. .

It's just too cold out here!!!!

[raven mad]

324. I remember Mom saying to Dad "what difference does it make?" He was a bigot.

When asking about a bunch of us - this was in 1970 - getting ready to go party on snow machines in some back country area here in Fairbanks. I was "with" my (now) spouse, who is part Native, there were 3 black kids from school, 6 more white kids from school, a couple more Native kids - and we're all in snow machine suits, bearclaw gloves, bunny boots and helmets.................

[bravenak]

330. Your mom was smart! And cool. Dad was lucky to have her.

[raven mad]

352. We kids were the lucky ones -

dad was oblivious to anyone not white, anglo-saxon and Catholic (not protestant, Catholic)........ LOL!

[bravenak]

355. Poor guy.

He was probably so damn bored with his life.

[raven mad]

365. Once he got up here he changed a LOT! This stupid state forces you to!

And died one of the happiest men I've ever known!

[HappyMe]

298. There's probably not a good reason

for black people to love white people.

I wasn't all surprised, and not at all hurt that Ms. Banks hates white people. I'm a white woman and I don't even love white people.

All a person can do is treat others with respect and kindness.

[bravenak]

299. Great answer. I agree.

I expect fair treatment and that's pretty much it.

[Rex]

300. Quick question...Why should native americans love white people?

Anyone that has read an ounce of American history, should know that answer. White people are the most destructive race on the planet earth...I don't even think other white people love white people. If they do, war sure is a strange way of showing it.

[bravenak]

302. Perfect.

[Rex]

309. I believe white privilege trumps everything else.

If you look at all the massacres of the Native American - from the time the first settlers showed up, to the later years of the US calvary doing unspeakable things...it all came from white privilege. Slavery in America was due to white privilege. The near destruction of the natives in South America again came from white privilege.

Manifest destiny is white privilege. The divine right of kings is white privilege. The Louisiana purchase was white privilege. The internment of Japanese Americans was white privilege.

When I hear another white person tell me there is no such thing, I know it is because they either don't understand their own races history or they think white people SHOULD be privileged but won't say that in public.

[bravenak]

310. Many think it is their god given right.

One reason I let them have their god to themselves.

[Rex]

316. I just cannot bring myself to be an athiest. I stopped at agnostic.

It's hard to read and study history and believe there is a god imo. However, I won't dismiss the idea either. Not of a personal god that hovers over the Earth and covets humans...but something far beyond us in nature and dimension.

If the universe is indeed infinite and nobody can explain 'spooky action at a distance', I will remain open to the idea of a entity capable of existing outside of what we call time and space - yet connected to everything and nothing at the same time.

[bravenak]

320. I'm like that too. Agnostic-atheist.

Even a hard atheist will believe evidence that hold up. Or god shows up. I used to think god is the universe and there were infintite universes with infinite gods. Some petty like, ours some cool. Now I just don't even think about it much. I was glad to get rid of the hovering god that watches me masturbate, tho. That guy sucked!

[Rex]

323. LOL!

I hear that! I know growing up, I thought he must be some kind of sick perv to want to watch millions of teens jackoff and then put it in the Big Book. What kind of perv does that!?

"St. Peter, Billy just rubbed another one out...that is 3 today alone, yep going to hell. Write it down. Good thing I am keeping track, oops his sister just went into the bathroom...let's watch."

Me too, I had all kinds of flowery notions of what god was. Now at 43, I am sure god is NOT the loving compassionate entity people are so desperate to believe in.

[Bettie]

308. There are other places along the spectrum between love and hate

But, if hate is what you feel, then I guess that is it.

Me, I tend to judge people as individuals rather than making assumptions based on the color of their skin, the size of their bodies, etc.

[bravenak]

311. Hate is what she feels. I use caution at all times. You never know who will be the next one.

Met one yesterday.

[Bettie]

314. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at

"You never know who will be the next one"...honestly confused as to what you mean by this.

[bravenak]

317. She hates white people because of racist white people.

I just use caution. You meet them all the time. (In reference to the person in the op.)

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

335. Why should black people love the gays?

Oops, Banks is a homophobe.

[brer cat]

350. I don't see any reason why black people

should like, much less love, white people. Nothing in the history of this country up to and including today would inspire trust in the treatment of poc. Certainly many white people and relatively small groups of white people have made sincere efforts to improve the lives, opportunities, and status of poc, but the overwhelming evidence is that a majority of white people still consider themselves superior. We can shout #blacklivesmatter until we are blue in the face, but every day on the news we learn that black lives are cheap, disposable, inconsequential. After all, "they" are thugs, promiscuous welfare queens, lazy, and stupid. 'Course, we will pay a little money to watch them sing and dance, dontcha know, and some white men do like that promiscuous part whether with consent or not.

The republicans get away with their dog whistle politics only because a majority of white Americans allow it. Cops can have open season on black children and men only because a majority of white Americans allow it. The KKK and skinheads can still openly meet because a majority of Americans don't shut them down. These things do not happen in a vacuum; it must be considered acceptable by a majority.

No singing purple tyrannosaurus rex is ever going to make us love one another. Respect and trust have to come first. I was an adult before I knew a black person other than those who cleaned houses and did yard work. Both of my white granddaughters have black best friends, and that gives me hope that one day a generation will come along that doesn't look to skin color first. It just hasn't happened yet.

[bravenak]

353. Respect and trust.

I agree. I think most black people don't hate, we just have trust issues and know better that to expect fairness. We don't and won't get it. Some just end up filling up with anger and misidentifying it as hate. That's what I see more. Frustration, anger and a lack of trust and a birning need for respect.

[PeteSelman]

358. Why should anyone love anyone?

You're a stranger to me, have never done a damn thing for me and never will. That goes for most of the 7 billion assholes on this planet. Why should I care about any of you?

[bravenak]

373. True that.

[GitRDun]

371. Another flame throwing post with no useful information or opinion

Of course black people are free to hate white people, but to what end?

Yes, white people have done nothing AS A GROUP to make black people like them and trust them.

NONE OF THAT MATTERS!!!!!

What matters is how we move forward together. We are all Americans. Here in America, it is individual people that can bring social change to entire groups of people.

If we can't put down the hate, resentment, call it what you will...that drips from this meaningless post, nothing will change.

I don't care what other white people do. What matters is how I treat people, how I teach my children to treat people. That's what I can do to make a a difference.

If people teach their children that it's fine to hate white people and that they've never done anything to make blacks trust or like them that's their business....but they will sadly be continuing a legacy of distrust that makes this country a little worse a place to live.

Put down the broad brush...it adds nothing to the discussion.

[bravenak]

372. You did not understand the question. It's not me that hates anybody.

Why are YOU so angry at me for ASKING?

[GitRDun]

376. I understood the post perfectly.

I am not angry with you. I feel sorry for you that you need to write flame throwing posts to get attention.

There is no point in the ask when you already know the answer..blacks are free to hate whites and whites as a group have not done what it takes to earn trust.

The more interesting post would have been what you propose we do to move beyond those two obvious facts.

[bravenak]

379. Lol! I get plenty of attention.

Have a great day.

[Aerows]

374. Why should white people love black people?

Why should gay people love straight people? Why should Muslims love Jews? Why should Jews love Muslims?

I have a very simple answer for you.

Because we can.

We can get over the ideological hump and just look one another in the eye and say "You are my friend, you matter to me, and nothing divides us from that."

[bravenak]

381. Good answers.

Because I love to love. But I'm kinda weird. Some people hold grudges. I love you.

[Aerows]

415. Well don't get all misty-eyed thinking I'm perfect.

I hold grudges, too.

I'm still pissed that Farscape was cancelled, and at the birds that will be once again shitting all over my red car repeatedly now that spring is here.

[bravenak]

448. I'm pissed about Winds of Winter not being out.

If he dies before he finishes the book I'll kill him.

[Aerows]

469. I know

Robert Jordan died before The Wheel of Time got finished, and we see how that ended.

That's about the worst ending, with the crappiest ways you could have all of your favorite characters end ... ugh.

I'm not even sure why I'm even talking about it, because of all the things I am totally not over, it is the way the Wheel of Time series ended. Atrocious.

Brandon Sanderson had to be on drugs to write the end of the series that way, and I will never believe that Robert Jordan meant for it to end that way.

Sorry, I still fume about that. I read the series for over 20 years (started reading them at 16), and that's what I got.

If you are telling me that George R. R. Martin is about to die on us and do a Robert Jordan, well, there is no hope in this world.

[bravenak]

476. That is why I never started that series.

I never heard about it until he died, then I saw the fans were not happy with the books by Sanderson. Did he write 'the name of the wind'? If so, shit. I read the first two already, he better not pull no slick moves. I write angry fan letters.

I hope GRRM doesn't die and he said 'to all of you who think I'm gonna die, fuck you' so I feel hopeful. But the way the last book ended pissed me off. Wtf. I love Jon Snow, we were gonna be together somehow, now this. Very unfortunate. I get upset about books like somebody died.

[Aerows]

495. Jon Snow

Is the Song of Ice and Fire.

He's Eddard Stark's sister and Rheagor's son.

They will probably throw him outside of the Wall, and he'll get renewed. Or maybe in the Grove of the Seven.

He is, though, the Song of Ice and Fire. Eddard's sister (can't remember her name) told him to never tell, he called Jon his bastard, but he wasn't. As Lady Stark noted, he was the most Stark looking of all of them. He is Rheagor and Lys Stark's son.

[bravenak]

517. How did I miss this?

You better tell me about how you liked Wool!!! I need to know!

[Agnosticsherbet]

377. I think a majority of white people oppose overt racism, but until White Privaledge is addressed.

we all benefit from racism whether we want it or not.

As long as we live in a racist system, then no, there is no reason to love us. It is also true that as long as we live in a sexist system where Male Privilege exists women have no reason to love Men of any color.

But that is not to say we have done nothing.

By legislation, the US Military is as colorblind an institution as will be found in the US or the world.

This began with Truman and did not reach the current state until the late sixties.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by a mostly white government. It built on many other Civil Rights Acts that were far less than ideal.

None of these things are perfect, and there are very open racist forces who are more than willing to erase all gains. That is the nature of the struggle.

[bravenak]

382. Thank you.

[steve2470]

401. White people in America (as a whole) have a lot of work to do on privilege and racism....

I totally understand why PoC feel the way they do. The BS that happens to black people on a daily basis should not be happening in the 21st century, let alone the 20th or 19th or 18th, etc.

[bravenak]

405. Thank you Steve.

I think trust can be worked on if people come together. Kinda like 'if you see something say something'? If everybody did it together it would already be done. Hopefull we will work on it.

[Anansi1171]

409. Putting the Brave in Bravenak!

You're not in jail or dead yet, Brave, so perhaps thats something to be grateful to white americans for?



Denial is a deep, deep river. Beyond disappointing the reaction to your OPs.

I will not co-sign Azelia Banks, anyone who would make controversial statements and then use the term "f_____t" as she has, with a bigotted justification that a racist redneck would be proud to utter, is not a useful messenger but rather a bigot.

That aside, the majority of whites stuggle to empathize with the experience of others in America, and thats assuming theyre even willing.

[bravenak]

410. I agree that I cannot defend her homophobia at all.

It is a problem that she needs to recognize and change. And it is self loathing since she trys to separate herself from gay, but she still has no problem hoping in the sack with a female herself. She needs a bunch of therapy.

And yes, lordy. I'm so grateful to not be in prison. But that's my mama that taught me to be cautious but strong. Thank you for the post.

[XemaSab]

412. Do you support desegregation?

Why?

[bravenak]

413. What? That is not an answer.

I never supported SEGREGATION. I was born in 81. And I said things we (black people) have not fought and died for. That was a part of things we either fought or died for or both. My question was basically what has been done to forge trust? Anything freely given without rancor. What has been done to make amends and ensure fairness for all? We don't have the power, they do.

[XemaSab]

431. So why would you want to be around people you don't trust?

[bravenak]

432. We don't really have a choice in this world, do we?

Can't all have our own castles. Everyone can't afford to just get up and move to somewhere without people.

[XemaSab]

444. Segregation was the status quo for centuries

People actively worked to overturn it.

Do you with they hadn't?

[bravenak]

445. Did I ever say I was against integration? Or that I wished they hadn't overturned it?

No. I never said that. I am saying Jim Crow is alive.

[XemaSab]

455. Here's what you said:

"Since the end of slavery, what have White people done as a group, not individuals - as a group, to make black people , as a group, like them and trust them in America?"

If you don't like or trust white people, then why would you support desegregation?

[bravenak]

458. They were the ones offended at the idea that a young black woman hated white people

while living under white supremacy. I was asking why they think she should feel anything else. Just a question. She doesn't like them and they are mad. I want to know what they (as a group) have done to help the trust issues that black people have with white people (as a group).

[XemaSab]

470. Doesn't that sort of lead to the converse of respectability politics?

"A ____ made me feel uncomfortable once so I'm going to avoid them."

[bravenak]

471. I do not understand what you mean. Sorry.

[XemaSab]

609. "I'll trust white people when every last one stops being racist" =

"I'll trust black people when every last one stops being a criminal."

[bravenak]

611. Who said that?

[XemaSab]

613. Do you think most white people are racist?

If not, then why do you think it's perfectly reasonable for black people to mistrust all white people?

[bravenak]

614. What reason do they have to trust them?

That was my question. I think about 50 million in the US.

[XemaSab]

615. Why should white people trust black people?

But if I said "I don't trust black people," I'd be called a racist, and rightly so.

[bravenak]

616. We never oppressed you. Or enslaved white people.

That should count for something that we don't go after retribution. We are trustworthy on race issues. We try year after year to assimilate, that shows we try to be a part of society. We have peaceful protests year after year even though we live under Jim Crow 2.0. We never lynch you. There are no photos of smiling black faces at lynch a white person parties. All black juries are of no concern to you. 1/3 of our men spend time in prison in the racist drug war yet we do not bomb shit and take it out on you.
There are not black cops running around major cities profiling you, hell even THEY profile us. We don't vote for manditory minimums knowing it will be mostly you that get caught up in the net. We try to be accepted by you no matter what. We explain our selves and explain ourselves even when mocked and discarded.

What have we NOT done? I think we have done plenty FOR white people. We actualky want to trust and try and try but get deals reniged on, left out of things. We have dome much and more. How much more do you want us to do?

[XemaSab]

617. QED

n/t

[marym625]

420. Wow, girl! no wonder brave is part of your name.

There is no reason. I would have to say what Tuesday said starting at post 5, and heaven post 287 are my favorite replies.

I would say that @deray is a voice of reason and love. He's done nothing but help and lead.

I truly have no idea why anyone would think that any person of color should like white people as a group.

You are one brave woman, my friend. But, we already knew that.

Lots of name removed posts. I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked!

[bravenak]

422. Name Removed is my biggest fan!

Eats cheetos in his mama's garage posting love letters to me.
I'll check out @deray, I finally got me a twitterer.
I think we can all build trust even if we have to do it step by step. The farther we get the more we can trust each other. I think one side fears the past coming back and things remaining stagnant and horrible and some on the other side fear retribution for sins of the fathers and stuff. Step by step we can do it so long as we know where each other are coming from and be open and honest. And make laws! Prove we are together and fight together for, especially the outcasts and lesser thans, the plebs.

[marym625]

429. amen to that!

I wish we could just make it like an etch a sketch. Erase everything before now. Everything. Yet keep the knowledge of the mistakes made and the good things done.

Not just about race but about religion, sexuality, gender identification, wars, etc etc etc.

Alas, we cannot. So the best we can do is exactly what you just said. Honest, open, listen, learn and pass laws that make a difference. Starting with ending the wars on poc and women.

Oh, I see how it is! Name removed has been cheating on me. I only had one love letter on my last post. Damn you woman!

[bravenak]

447. .

Name removed sure gets around!

[bravenak]

425. Thank you all for the awesome thread!!

Gotta go shopping. Love you all, thanks for the responses!

[guillaumeb]

427. start forest fire with post, go shopping.

nice!

what next?

[bravenak]

446. I was here tending my thread all day long.

You are wrong for saying that I started a fire and went shopping. That is not correct or fair.
If you have axproblem with my thread, just say so. Spill it! What is your problem with my question? I know it is uncomfortable to know amends have not been made and that we still live under defacto Jim Crow, but damn! Really? Et tu brute? I cannot believe this from you.

[guillaumeb]

552. it was a joke. not clearly indicated.

I liked the post and the amount of discussion. Some of it was obviously defensive and dismissive but many people do realize how deeply rooted racism is in every part of life in the US.

We need more of this type of talk, not less.

Hope this clears things up.

[bravenak]

554. Sorry dear.

I took it wrong, and got all sad cause I like you. I felt like Caesar.

[guillaumeb]

556. the feeling is mutual

I do not use the emoticons. When speaking it is easier to convey sarcasm/humor.

[bravenak]

559. I love the emoticons.

I can't wait until the site supports all the ones on my ipad. Yeah, sarcasm is hard to tell on here until you know someones personality.

[elleng]

426. 'Love?' No reason.

'Like?' Because we're people, neighbors, co-workers, and as likely to be likable as ANYONE IN THE WORLD is.

[bravenak]

439. Awesome. And true.

[Zorra]

430. Pizza. nt

[bravenak]

440. Yes. I love pizza.

[KamaAina]

561. The poster is referring to the "Tombstone" that used to be displayed on posters' profiles

after they got banned.

[bravenak]

562. I know.

[Zorra]

598. Not at all. It was an attempt at humor, and sarcasm, meaning white people invented pizza,

so there is one thing as least they have done that should make African Americans love them.

It was sad sarcasm, in support of the OP's premise.

From bravenaks' first response, it really appeared to me that she got my point.

I'm going to stop using literary devices on DU. Years ago, just about everyone understood them when they were used.

Things have changed.

[bravenak]

601. Thank god!!

At first I though delicious pizza then after Joe I though pizza pizza. Thank you.

[Skip Intro]

449. Why should White people do anything to "make Black people" like them?

What have Black people done to make White people like and trust them?

[bravenak]

456. Oh, look who it is.

[Skip Intro]

461. No answer as usual. n/t

[bravenak]

462. You had none yourself to my op.

[CreekDog]

663. first post since December?

and you wait until post #449 of this thread to chime in?



theories...

[CreekDog]

664. his first post since December

post #449 of this thread.

what happened that he didn't post earlier in this thread?

what happened that Skip suddenly posts almost 500 posts into the thread after taking a three month break from DU?

[bravenak]

665. This thread uspet him horribly.

I think he may still be mad I got him blocked from AA for thread jacking. I try to avoid him myself. Not worth the stress.

[CreekDog]

666. well, AverageJoe90 and H. Cromwell were both banned that day

and without them, who was left to represent what they'd been saying in racial threads?

[bravenak]

667. True. They needed a representative and ge was happy to fill that role.

I bet Joe was burning with desire to troll this thread and play dumb. Imagine how long it may have gone on if he had been here? He would probably still be telling me about his 'humble opinion', TBH.
This thread went much better without him.

[steve2470]

658. god help me, I just saw this....

I cannot believe you posted that. *shakes head and walks away muttering*

[madville]

460. 85% of black people identify as Christians

And Jesus says people should be full of love and offer forgiveness to all?

[bravenak]

465. I'm not. And christianity is full of bad stuff too. Like 'slaves obey your masters'.

That lended credence to the institution of slavery.

[Stellar]

472. Would you hate whites if you were black?

n/t

[bravenak]

478. I am black.

[Stellar]

483. I don't hate white people...

and I'm black also. You think something is wrong with me?

[bravenak]

485. I don't hate white people either.

But I did after they used to beat me up everyday and call me names and my teacher was very racist and gave herself a breakdown. We were the only black people in a small town. I was not allowed in the store alone in the 90's. It took me a few years to get through it and I have PLENTY of white family to help. I don't think she has that. I wonder why. Where is the white community on this issue? What are they doing to combat the racism that breeds hate in our youth? Hate breed hate, we all know that.

[Stellar]

500. Sorry you had to deal with that hatred,

and we can only deal with those that care to make a stand. I've yet to see demonstrations that did not include whites and/or people of all nationalities that wanted to help, even as far back as Dr. King, they were there (that I recall). Maybe not in the number that you might be looking for but they were there.

[bravenak]

502. I know they were there. I mean something bigger. I think it's time.

It's been going on too long and we need a reconciliation and a healing. It cannot start until people know how each other honestly feel and have experienced. We have to stop saying things are better and work to make things RIGHT, so that our kids don't grow up with the same fear, resentment, psychological damage and end up hating people because of white supremacy. We need to talk about it abd find a way to end any racial supremacy. Otherwise we will have generations of people growing up feeling the same way while nothing changes. And their numbers will grow while the majority shrinks. What's going to happen then? A real war? We can do better than this. We need to try.

[Stellar]

503. We shall over come some day....

I'm an old girl....been saying that for many years.

[bravenak]

504. I'll be saying for years to come.

The struggle continues.

[DeadEyeDyck]

477. as a black, I think this is a dumb question

I select who I love on their individual merits.

[bravenak]

482. You do not have to like it.

As a black. I'm not speaking for you. Asking a question that you can avoid by ignoring it if you so choose.

[Ken Burch]

486. Hard to find a good reason, if you're speaking of us white folks in general.

Basically, most of us white folks have spent the last fifty years trying to stop black people(and latinos, and Asian-Americans, and white folks who happen to be poor as well)from gaining any ground at all, and in spoiling any of the victories you've gained.

You're fully entitled to your anger(especially at those of my fellow whites who acted as if you owed them gratitude for restoring some, but far from all, of what they've stolen from you, or that you owed them support for things like the Vietnam War in exchange for signing the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts, as Lyndon Johnson apparently did).

I suppose the real question is how to put together a coalition of everyone who has been left out by the current arrangement, and how the trust needed to do that can be achieved. And I don't have the answer to that.

Not sure of what else to say.

[bravenak]

488. My solution is to build trust.

I need to figure out how. A national anti racism campaign? See something say something? I don't know. I just want people not to be shocked when certain members if minority groups hate white supremacy and by extension white people. I left my hate but the anger will always be there.
It's like how if Iraqis say they Hate Americans, I usually just nod and understand why immediately. I don't say 'It wasn't ALL of us who killed a million of you'. I get why people in the middle east hate us, and know it's not bigotry or because of our freedoms. We are not that awesome. We have done nothing to build trust except kinda leave a little. I would never trust america if I were Arab living there. I guess that's what I mean.

[IsItJustMe]

487. We always have the choice of feeding our higher angels or our

lower angels. When we feed our higher angels, like love and compassion, then we will find life fulfilling and worth while.

When we feed our lower angels, like fear, hate, and mistrust, then that is what we will get in return.

So to me anyway, race has nothing at all to do with it. Does a person want a loving life or a hateful life. Each one of us makes that decision every single day.

[Sarcastica]

501. all people should love all people.

[bravenak]

506. They don't sadly.

[Sarcastica]

523. Do you mean "they don't" or "we don't".

Each one of us can be the source of the change that the world desperately needs.

It's not easy, and I often slip, but I try every day.

[slipslidingaway]

505. Simple answer ... because they are people ...

we have been living in an American Cancer Society funded facility for the past three months. There are a variety of skin colors and people of different religions, everyone is a person.

Is there racism in our society, yes, but if one dwells too much it can be counterproductive. I say good morning and good night to everyone equally, I offer support or to hold the door for others without thinking what color there skin is or what their religion might be. Sorry to say that the Muslim family felt afraid to admit their religion to others at first, we need to stop seeing reasons to divide and see common reasons to move forward.

We all have many things in common and need to focus our energy on what we have in common and not what divides us.

I only know what I do, it may seem insignificant and slow, but each one of us can make a difference without being confrontational.

[bravenak]

518. The entire civil rights movement was confrontational.

Sit ins at lunch counters were confrontations. Bus boycotts. Marches with fire hoses and police dogs. Church bombings. Assasinations. The entire black struggle for equality has been one long bumpy confrontation.
It is counterproductive to have racism, not to dwell on how to solve or understand the damage that results from it. It's like you think it will go away if we don't talk about it. No. It will continue and WE will have to suffer in silence so that YOU can be comfortable. Saying yes there is racism, but no don't dwell on it to a person who suffers from it daily is discompassionate. I woukd not tell a man dying from Cancer that it was counterproductive to 'dwell' on it when it is running his life. Would you? It may be easier for YOU not to discuss it, but not for me. I am the squeaky wheel. I will get that grease if I have to scream at the top of my lungs. Till my last breath I will say, "This is wrong! I reject white supremacy!" Thank you.

[Jamaal510]

510. I don't know if you heard about Common's comment,

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/19/common-pharrell-and-the-new-black-an-ignorant-mentality-that-undermines-the-black-experience.html

but he was saying something along the lines of Blacks needing to reach out more.

“We all know there’s been some bad history in our country. We know that racism exists,” the star conceded, before adding, “I’m…extending a hand. And I think a lot of generations and different cultures are saying ‘Hey, we want to get past this. We’ve been bullied and we’ve been beat down, but we don’t want it anymore. We’re not extending a fist and saying, ‘Hey, you did us wrong.’ It’s more like ‘Hey, I’m extending my hand in love. Let’s forget about the past as much as we can, and let’s move from where we are now. How can we help each other? Can you try to help us because we’re going to help ourselves, too.’ That’s really where we are right now.”

But what does he think we've been doing all these decades? We've extended our hands, and had them either spit on or chopped off.

[bravenak]

511. I think he got that wrong.

We been reaching out even when our hand get slapped away.
Once people get money they change.

[Jamaal510]

512. Not too long ago,

he sang a different tune (no pun intended) on his old songs I hear from him. I know money changes people, but c'mon...he has his head far up his butt, despite coming up from the streets of Chicago. He's one of the people I would've least expected to be this out of touch.

[bravenak]

513. That is very dissapointing thinking about that.

It's like everyone wants to be the next respectable negro that America loves. There will be no progress without making a few waves.

[romanic]

516. What is this

"new Black" shit? What are "old blacks"? And why is the DB (a site founded by a white woman) trying to start shit with black celebrities and the black community as a whole who don't tow the line regarding their opinions about race? And what do you want Common to say anyway?

[Jamaal510]

634. For Common to say what he did,

it makes the problem worse because he's ignoring the fact that Blacks have been trying to reach out for years. He's facing criticism for his comments because he's insinuating that Blacks are the cause of the racism directed towards us all these years, and it is a stark shift compared to how he used to rap.

[NCTraveler]

524. One of the best of all times.

Attempting to garner support for the thought process of a hate filled bigot. Impressive.

[bravenak]

529. I see why there are so many minorities here.

[NCTraveler]

533. I have no clue of the racial breakdown of this site.

Nor do I know what my post has to do with race. The person you are talking about is an open bigot. They do not hide it. We don't need to be accepting of people who hate those with differing sexual orientations in order to make this site more accommodating to minorities. You should really have a higher opinion of minorities you have never met than to think they would be accepting of a hate filled bigot just because of the color of their skin. Pretty sad you think calling out bigots is why, in your opinion, there are few minorities here. Pretty harsh thought process you have there.

[bravenak]

536. Of course you have no clue about it.

That is part of the problem. You don't even notice we are missing and you are pushing me to leave. After dealing with people like you so much and all the racist trolls too? I wom't be posting much longer and you can thank people like yourself.
Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here. I see you making it a point to get rid of one of the last ones here with your nastiness.i bet you'll feel so proud when you get rid of me. Enjoy your board. I do not deserve and will not deal with your self rightous bullshit.
There are no black people here because of stuff like this. Bye.

[NCTraveler]

543. Truly makes no sense.

You really shouldn't give others that much power. Please show all of the posts I have made that are driving you away. I'm sure there are tons of them. "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." This site should never make bigotry acceptable and those who are bothered by bigots being called out should not be able to call this place home, skin color be damned. I also think that comment in itself has extremely racist undertones. It is a blatant and completely unfair stereotype. I don't think this comment should be allowed on this site. "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." Not just because it is blatantly false, but it is a pathetic stereotype.

[bravenak]

546. They have that power. You did not even bother reading the thread.

Otherwise you'd know I provided answers to anything you'd want to know. The way you come at me all hard core? That is why I'm done. I done repeating myself for the enjoyment of others who feign lack of understanding.

[NCTraveler]

550. Understood.

I have not "come at me(you) hard core in any way." I don't lack understanding. I just don't paint those who look different than me in a negative and blatantly false light as you do. "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." That statement is really screwed up right there. You are coming at minorities hard core with that comment. Really sad.

Lets go to the racist statement again. You claim "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." You are requesting leniency on bigotry in order to attract minorities. Really messed up thought process. There is no parsing of this sentence at all. It speaks on its own. "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." I will stand up for civil rights at every turn. That includes the LGBT community. I will not give hatred a pass, in order to be more inclusive to bigots, at the expense of others who have had their civil rights trampled on.

[bravenak]

553. I am telling you the truth.

Anyone that has visited the African America group knows that calling out bigotry is why many left. There are plenty of posts back there. There is even a post on this thread, not by me saying the same thing. You have no idea.

[NCTraveler]

558. I do have an idea that this site is good at driving bigots away.

Sometimes not fast enough. Hate is hate. Bigots and racists often have a lot in common. Be gone bigots. That is the truth also. I don't want bigots here. It really is pathetic to stereotype minorities as you are. Even worse to act as if being more welcoming to bigots would increase the number of minorities here. No matter the color of your skin, if you hate those for their sexual orientation and state so openly, you should be immediately banned. This is a private site and the owners have made it know that bigotry is not allowed. You should not yearn to make this place more inclusive to racists and bigots.

[bravenak]

560. What the hell does this bullshit even mean?

I'm stereotyping minorities? I yearn to make this place more inclusive to bigots and racists? Is this Joe? Leave me alone. You have lost it.

[NCTraveler]

567. Act innocent as if you didn't claim this site.....

Act innocent as if you didn't claim this site would attract more minorities if it were more inclusive to bigots. They were you own words. Yes, you have blatantly stereotyped a whole race. Once again, your own words did that. What does Joe have to do with anything? I will call out bigotry and the support of bigotry at every turn. On top of that, my stance on bigotry makes du a more welcoming place for minorities.

Your comments. They are taken out of context in no way. Please don't feign ignorance with respect to comments you made mere minutes ago.

"Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here."

"There are no black people here because of stuff like this." <- made in a discussion where I was calling out bigotry

"calling out bigotry is why many left."

Not only do I disagree with you, but I feel the exact opposite of you. I believe the stronger our stand against bigotry, the more minorities we would attract. We would be respected more for it. It is truly a show of respect for others, not just minorities.

I am also a member in good standing at du. You have responded to me multiple times. "Leave me alone." How many times in the years I have been here have I responded to you? Very strange retort on your part. "Leave me alone." lol.

[bravenak]

568. Please just stop. You got everything 100 percent wrong and I believe it was on purpose.

Please leave me alone. Thanks.

[NCTraveler]

571. I have got nothing wrong.

These comments are yours to own. I took them out of context in no way at all. That is very clear. Why do you keep responding to me, then put leave me alone at the end. Extremely strange behavior. Nothing I have said here has been taken out of context. They are the claims you have made to me. They don't show your thoughts toward minorities in a positive way. You directly called for a more inclusive environment toward bigots in order to attract minorities. I completely disagree and have every right to do so at DU. We would clearly attract more minorities if when they show up at our door they find we care about civil rights in all areas. We should also leave the stereotypes you have generated in your comments for other boards. That should be all of ours first step in being more welcoming. Not to welcome more hate.

There is no parsing of words at all here. Those quotes above are yours. Not taken out of context at all.

[bravenak]

572. Please just leave me alone.

You took everything out of context. Each portion you posted was a snip of a sentence out of context. My entire statement was meant to be read whole, not in snips. Now, leave me alone.

[NCTraveler]

575. You should not comment direclty to the debate,.....

then say leave me alone. Truly, make a false claim or talk about the benefits of being more inclusive toward bigotry and then say leave me alone. Really bad form. You claim I posted snips of sentences out of context. I have taken nothing out of context at all. Out of three of the sentences I quoted, two weren't snips of sentences as you attempt to allude to. The one that was a snip, changes no way at all if I added the first part of the sentence. Once again, false claim. You keep making false claims toward me, then say leave me alone. Nothing I have done has taken you out of context. You even attempted to claim you weren't the only one with those feelings. You literally backed up the context to the point of claiming support from others, including poor souls run off because DU does not tolerate bigotry. Now you are going with the lack of context argument as your first argument is clearly in support of being more inclusive to bigots and those willing to vocally opposed civil rights. Your words on that were direct and clear. Lets see if this works. Leave me alone.

Here you go. Not taken out of context in any way. All in one spot. Well, there are more, but this clears up any context issues you alone have.

"Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here. I see you making it a point to get rid of one of the last ones here with your nastiness.i bet you'll feel so proud when you get rid of me. Enjoy your board. I do not deserve and will not deal with your self rightous bullshit.
There are no black people here because of stuff like this. Bye. "

"Anyone that has visited the African America group knows that calling out bigotry is why many left. There are plenty of posts back there. There is even a post on this thread, not by me saying the same thing. You have no idea."

So, how did I take you out of context? Also, nastiness comes from bigots, not those of us who take stands against bigots.

[bravenak]

578. Please leave me alone.

You took everything I said and twisted it to say I supported bigotry and called me racist and bigot several times. That's why you need to leave me alone. You started out calling me racist or bigot like I was the one who said I hated white people. Then you called me an apologist for bigotry for asking why black people should trust or like white peopke as a group, not person to person. So many were so shocked and I wanted them to know that they were wrong to be shocked. Living under white supremacy is hard if you are black and it may be very hard for that girl to like or trust the beneficiaries of white supremacy especially after experiencing so much racism. In addition, thise same beneficiaries are the one who run around screaming racist at black people who live under white supremacy that benefits them and never stop to even consider their role in society and that their votes for destructive policies towards minorities is why they are not trusteed as a group. No amends have been made and all progress is subject to interpretation. Get the right to vote? Ok, now you have a drug war that targets minorites and placed one out of three in prison in their life time or that since civil rights the non violent prison population has grown to over 1 million, mostly blacks. That girl spoke on this and more and has been. She explained how in kindergarten she had a very racist teacher who doled out cruel punishments to only the black students while petting and encouraging the white ones. And she lives under white supremacy with all these death threats coming from white americans in the midwest, and you wonder why she at 23 years old has not yet sorted through the damage? Why she feels angry? She doesn't have to justify why as a black person living under white supremacy she feel no love towards it's oblivious recipients.

Now. Leave. Me. Alone.

[NCTraveler]

579. Your words are there to read.

Not taken out of context in any way. You also don't get to respond to a discussion, with a member in good standing, then say leave me alone, and expect to be respected. I showed your full words so you couldn't claim anything was taken out of context. Your thought process was clear and concise. Now you are here completely making things up. Your claim, not taken out of context, is that more minorities would be here if we were more inclusive of those who want to make bigoted comments. That is taken out of context in no way at all. To avoid you making such a foolish claim, I posted your whole comments. No snipping as you falsely accused me of before. My response, followed up by your response, clearly started a conversation about bigotry. In that conversation you made claims that would never be received well here.

I have taken nothing out of context. Once again, full quotes, not snips as you claim.

"That is part of the problem. You don't even notice we are missing and you are pushing me to leave. After dealing with people like you so much and all the racist trolls too? I wom't be posting much longer and you can thank people like yourself.
Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here. I see you making it a point to get rid of one of the last ones here with your nastiness.i bet you'll feel so proud when you get rid of me. Enjoy your board. I do not deserve and will not deal with your self rightous bullshit.
There are no black people here because of stuff like this. Bye."

"Anyone that has visited the African America group knows that calling out bigotry is why many left. There are plenty of posts back there. There is even a post on this thread, not by me saying the same thing. You have no idea."

"You took everything out of context. Each portion you posted was a snip of a sentence out of context. My entire statement was meant to be read whole, not in snips. Now, leave me alone."

Why didn't you leave me alone when I requested? lol. Just pointing out how expect from others that which you will not do yourself. Probably why you don't see the flaw in this thought. "Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here." <- Not taken out of context in any way. The rest is copy and pasted in this post. You might want to back of the taken out of context thing. Last time you said I took you out of context I literally used your whole post, minus the subject line.

[bravenak]

580. Leave me alone.

You are wrong.

[NCTraveler]

585. How can you claim I am wrong,

without making any argument except the out of context one. That is blatantly a false claim on your part as I used everything you have written here. Nothing at all removed. No snips. Nada. Just your own full thoughts put on display. If you want me to not respond, don't be dishonest with respect to the debate at hand. Not one word was taken out of context. Silly to claim so considering I have even copied and pasted them. In full. Not only are they not out of context, but originally you claimed others have left because of the reasoning you are describing. So, my stance has not changed one single bit, you used that stance to make a point about others leaving, truly solidifying that my original thoughts were accurate. Now you are claiming they aren't. My original thoughts were that bigotry should not be tolerated. You disagreed. If my position hasn't changed, and at one point you backed up your claim with respect to my position by commenting on the actions of others, why do you now claim it was out of context? An interesting change in tactics.

You shouldn't make a comment and then say leave me alone. It is truly bad form. You have responded to every comment I have made. Please stop the whole leave me alone shtick when you yourself would never respect such foolishness on a discussion board. That is also not an assumption. It is fact and not taken out of context. Would you like for me to paste back up of that here also?

[bravenak]

586. You need to leave me alone and do your own research.

I told you there were posts in the African American group discussing black member leaving because of harassment and other abuse including racism. You don't believe me and want to pick apart my post. Fine. I owe you no explanations. Go do your own research into the issue and ask a few black duers if they know of people leaving here because of the biggoted atmosphere and extra bullshit. Like people thinking everything you say about race issues is bullshit and they as a white person know better. Leave me alone leave me alone leave me alone. I have already tried to explain things to you numerous times, but you refuse to accept MY interpretation OF MY OWN WORDS. You rely on your interpretation of what you think I meant and go on sone tangent like I owe you answers. Go find something better to do with your time than demand answers from me that you have already gotten and choose to ignore. You are being deliberately obtuse bordering on abusive. I'm telling you that I will keep posting leave me alone to you from now on. Leave me alone. You got all of the explainations you are going to get from THIS black woman. It is not my job to coddle you or explain life and racism to you. Leave me alone. You are being very demanding like you think I answer to you. Leave me alone.

[NCTraveler]

590. I have not picked apart posts of yours.

I have picked apart your flawed thought process. The thought that being more lenient toward bigoted comments would attract more minorities is a claim I believe to be false and called you on it. That is not taken out of context in any way. I have backed that up with your words. No snipping as you claimed. Full posts. Your argument is that I am wrong, yet at one point in the beginning you even used other to back up your thoughts.

This leave me alone thing is just weird. You think you get to make false claims against me and then tell me how to behave. Truly interesting. Unique and all about self. You cannot claim anything was out of context. Here they are again but this time I am going to go back to just quoting sentences. They are in no way out of context and speak for themselves.


"Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here."

"There are no black people here because of stuff like this." <- made in a discussion where I was calling out bigotry

"calling out bigotry is why many left."

I don't think you answer to me. Never said or acted like you do. But you do keep responding.

"You are being very demanding like you think I answer to you."

You are now going completely away from your original position. This I do agree with. It is a complete one eighty.

"Go do your own research into the issue and ask a few black duers if they know of people leaving here because of the biggoted atmosphere and extra bullshit."

Complete contradiction from your initial thoughts.

"calling out bigotry is why many left."

"Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here."

[bravenak]

592. I swear I told you to leave me alone.

[bravenak]

589. This can start you off and you can work your way backwards through time, while leaving me alone.

No response needed. Will be using ignore from now on. Good luck finding your own answers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/118713231

[NCTraveler]

593. Love the writing of MrScorpio.

Good stuff. Has nothing at all to do with your claim of wanting to be more inclusive of bigots. Thanks for the great read though. Almost wish it were a little longer but Scorpio has a way with words. Something I wish I possessed more of. I have great admiration for Scorpio because of their writing style. Still has nothing to do with your original thought process when responding to me.

Their wiki link was also very educational.

[bravenak]

596. I never said I wanted to be more inclusive of bigots. You did. Now leave me alone.

[NCTraveler]

603. Once again, don't make an innacurate claim against me.....

then ask me to leave you alone. Your comments were beyond clear and I am not taking them out of context. Your claim is that if we were more inclusive of bigots, more minorities would be here. I do not support you claim and argue against it.

Your words:

"Calling out bigots is why there are few minorities here. I see you making it a point to get rid of one of the last ones here with your nastiness.i bet you'll feel so proud when you get rid of me. Enjoy your board. I do not deserve and will not deal with your self rightous bullshit."

Not out of context in any way. Including the inclusion of yourself in your writings.

Making a claim against someone, then telling them to leave you alone, is bad form. As of this post, I have replied to you exactly one more time than you have replied to me. Your whole leave me alone shticks is laughable. Attempting to set a standard for others that you aren't willing to follow yourself. You have made repeated false claims about me. I have taken none of your words out of context.

[bravenak]

604. Yes. US MINORITIES calling out BIGOTS all the time is why many of US have left.

We call them out time and time again and eventually just leave since many fly under the radar and spend plenty of time pretending that CALLING OUT racism against US is WORSE than racism against US.

Now that I have expained that, yet again, LEAVE ME ALONE. Until you can understand that I am the best interpreter of my own words, leave me alone.

[NCTraveler]

605. Nice one eighty.

Complete turn. You have also claimed you don't speak for a whole group, yet you seem to speak for all groups as it fits you. I am glad you have come around to agree with my position. It took a while but calling out bigotry really is the way to go. I will continue to work at it one person at a time. Have a great weekend.

[bravenak]

606. I have said this over and over on DU. Even wrote an op about it last year in AA.

I told you you were misinterpreting my words in the first place and to go research. You want to argue semantics and worry about my missing pronoun. That's why you were wrong!!! Unwilling to listen to a POV that you cannot understand.

It was my original position. You were wrong!! I told you that!! I told you to leave me alone and read the ENTIRE THREAD where I SAID THIS SAME THING in different ways. I told you to look in AA. I gifted you with a thread to look at. You played obtuse and oblivious, just like I said you did. This is why people leave, having to deal with people who will not believe one word black people say when it come to race issues WITHOUT A BIG ORDEAL! You could have just accepted that I know what I mean by my own words and that YOUR INTERPRETATION OF MY WORDS WAS WRONG! Now leave me alone until you can get that point that YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE WHAT I MEAN BY WHAT I SAY. I do. Thanks.

[NCTraveler]

607. You backed up your position multiple times...

In multiple posts. That was clear. I think this is a positive with respect to your last post's. This has also spawned some excellent discussion above. Have a great weekend.

[bravenak]

608. I'm glad you realized you were wrong! Since I told you bye bye until you get it.

Nice to see you went and did research on it and saw my past history of posts saying EXACTLY what I just said I meant.

Here is more evidence of how WRONG you were:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025944287#post197

You should read the ENTIRE THREAD. Enjoy your day!

[romanic]

641. You know what?

I feel sorry for you. Out past interactions on here were brief but antagonistic and I realized that it wasn't the right approach. I think your experiences IRL have affected how you respond to different opinions on this board or how you conduct yourself on here in a heated debate.

Despite all of the hateful crap Azealia flings out of her mouth, I think you see yourself in her and her anger towards white American or white supremacy; whatever her latest target is really. I don't think your a hateful person bravenak, you may need more time to heal than you realize. I hope things get better for you and I hope that race relations get even better in the future.

[bravenak]

643. Don't care.

[bravenak]

647. The problem is that you don't know shit about me.

You approach me in a nasty negative way and wonder why I am acerbic with you. I spend half my time on here dodging racist trolls, and part of the rest if the time being talked down to by new people like you who never bother to come at me cool. I always get the people like you that come at me nasty, whitesplain or mansplain shit to me. It's hard to have idiots try to 'explain' racism to you when they have experienced NONE. You decided to come at me foul the first time you posted to me, and you wonder why I treat you like that?
Of course racism has a long lasting effect, where the hell in the world do I go to get away from it? Hell yeah I'm mad! You think dr King and malcolm x were HAPPY about racism and Jim Crow? This IS how I deal. Tell yall mutha fucka I'm pissed. Let you know many others are pissed and not as easy to deal with as me. Eventually people will just give up trying to do it the right way, cause it don't work. I was right there in the 92 riots and I know exactly why it happened. The same atmosphere is back. Why should ANOTHER generation of blacks grow up under WHITE SUPREMACY and be HAPPY about it. I'm not the one with the problem, America Is.

[romanic]

670. I came at you foul

because you come at others foul if someone doesn't agree with you. Look at how you acted when others in this thread of the Azealia thread didn't entirely agree with you. The insults, the accusations, the aggressiveness is unreal. You get what you give, that's just being real.
I'm not bothered if you like me or not, I have no emotional attachments to this forum but apparently you do and that's cool I guess. Just use that anger for something productive instead of browbeating others to agree with you. Good luck.

[bravenak]

671. Worry about yourself.

If you worry about others and tone trolling me you'll probably not have much fun around here. I see you like to lecture from on high. Enjoy that shit for real.
If you wanna be all ' captain sava' around this piece, you'll get what I feel like giving. That is for sure. You might as well mind your business and stop worrying about wtf I'm doing. Mind yours, I'll tend to mine. Now, burn up off the block.

[romanic]

673. I'll mind mines honey

now take your Razzie and exit left cause this conversation is ovah.

[IMG][/IMG]

[bravenak]

674. You still here?

[KamaAina]

563. There are indeed black people here.

Jamaal510, 1StrongBlackMan, and BlkMuscleMachine snap to mind.

And I call out bigots every single day. And I'm white.

[bravenak]

564. My point is that the party is full of us and there are so FEW here.

If you look back in AA, you'll see names of many black members who left and the specifics of why. Some come back like once a year, see the place is the same and leave. Go look. You'll see.

[KamaAina]

569. Well, that sucks.

I, and I'm sure many other white DUers, appreciate the black perspective (as seen on "The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore&quot . I get frustrated with the white DUers who whine and groan whenever I use the word "privilege", though.

[bravenak]

570. People are very sensitive.

I was too at first by racist comments and outright racial physical abuse and stuff. Once they get past the hurt feelings they will see that they are privileged by being able to ignore the issue of racism anytime they choose. I think they are uncomfortable because they know once the talk starts, it won't ever stop until something gets done. They end up feeling guilty. The ones who strive for better everyday end up taking the time to sort things out, and while they remain uncomfortable, the guilty feelings subside, probably because they see something wrong and they speak. If everybody was like you, and SheShe, and Hof, and Ism and banes, marym, etc, we would not still be in the place we are. I need more people like you guys in the world. You guys remind me of MJ's 'Heal the World' song. I feel good when I see your names on a race thread. I can just skip it sometimes and Kwassa will handle it or BlueNorthWest or Scootaloo will smash on them. I guess that why I think that there is a chance. I'm sure you all felt uncomfortable and a bit guilty at one time, but you worked it out. Good people.

[NM_Birder]

526. Seems like an Inflammatory question meant to drive the race wedge deeper.

there are only two paths that lead from your question.

1 acceptable response is complete acceptance, ...... of your premise that "white people" collectively conspire to be racist and bigoted toward black people as a group.

2 any other response will be racist and bigoted, proving that "white people" collectively conspire to be bigoted and racist toward black people.

Don't pretend to be surprised, that accusing a race of people collectively, of racism .............. does little more than fuel the fires of racism. It seems to be the goal of your post. First sentence questions why anyone would be shocked that a black woman feels hate toward white people.... as a group, the second sentence, basically DARES people to explain why black people as a group shouldn't hate white people ....... as a group.

You mention black and white people as a collective group, over and over and over again, assuming that all that belong to either group collectively think and behave the same, based on racial stereotypes. that is the very definition of a racist view.

[bravenak]

528. Way to get out of answering. You did not need to reply. Thanks.

[NM_Birder]

537. you too. I'll answer, bet you won't. I don't hate or distrust black people as a group,

I don't know why anybody would. I don't know about ANY group of people that hate or distrust another racial group of people JUST because of thier race ......... except racist people. Are you accusing "white people" as a group of being racist ? That's racist.

I was born "white", but was never asked to join the "white group" in a collective hatred of black people. it's a shame you think black people collectively hate white people, that has not been my experience.

There is no answer to your "question", .... what you want and need is for as many people as possible to support your hatred of white people as a group. You made that clear. You made it crystal clear by including black people as a group, and white people as a group, you define racist belief with your "question".

Of course I needed to reply, you are pushing racist thought for absolutely no reason except the self gratification of making "white people" feel guilty of being white.

your question has no point but to display racist thought, in an environment that allows you to, under the guise of "progress" right ?

[bravenak]

538. I remember hateful stuff from you.

You are on my list of folks to avoid. Please leave me alone now. Thanks.

[NM_Birder]

542. Sure.

There is no way to defend your racist belief is there ? I did not expect you to be able to.
take care.

[bravenak]

544. Bye.

If you read the thread you would have hundreds of answers.

[LWolf]

530. Because they are people.

People should love people and the rest of the living planet. Love is a healthy, productive thing for the world.

Why should people create groups for the purposes of NOT loving one another?

[bravenak]

534. They don't love us. They show us by how our society is run in white supremacy.

Be nice if they all decided tomorrow to end it. Instead we get this Jim Crow to eat and told it's better than the old Jim Crow. There is not trust that things will be any different without a bloody battle. We have to evidence to look at to suggest things will get any better. They have been getting wirse all of my life.
I just don't understand why people expect the victims of Jim Crow to not hate the beneficiaries of Jim Crow? We have generations growing up like this. Not one generation of black had grown up in equality since the inception of this nation. Why the surprise to find out people feel that way? It took me years to let go of the burning anger at the injustices. Remember, I was at the LA riots and saw how much the majority cares about us and the things done to us. One of the first things I knew to be afraid of was, police (after they beat my cousin and sent him home - white of course) and all white juries (notorious for the convicting of innocent black males). And when we complain we hear basically that it's nobodies fault or that WE are playing the race card.

Anyways, I just lack surprise when I hear a young black person hates white people when they have been given NO REASON to LIKE white people, only fear them and what they can do to them.

[LWolf]

539. You are doing exactly what I'm referring to.

"They" as some monolithic group that are not individual human beings, but, by nature of their skin pigment, must all share the same social and emotional characteristics.

You, of course, are free to love, or not, whomever you wish.

I'll stick to unconditional love as the foundation for the way I view the rest of my species. It's healthier and less destructive.

[bravenak]

541. It is hard to love white supremacy.

[LWolf]

626. True.

Supremacy, white or of any other kind, though, is not a person. You asked about people.

[bravenak]

627. It took me years to separate the people from the policy they benefit from.

Years. I had therapy and still do. She is still young. We need to prevent people from needing therapy to be ABLE to separate the people from the policies they benefits from and that many support. We need to end it instead of expecting psychologically abused populations to have the strength of mind to be ABLE to handle it. Not only are they harmed by it but they are poor and have fewer resources than I had to deal with it. Many go days without seeing one white person face to face because they move away as we move in.
I was lucky to spend a significant amount of time here in Alaska in a very nice neighborhood with great schools and kind white people who were NOTHING like the ones I had known. I was still, scared for a long time and was scared of rejection. I made it but I had much support and many white friends and family who never took it the wrong way when I was stone silent or uncooperative. And they defended me in tough times. I think the vigorous defenses from the when I was too scared to say anything helped me with my level of trust. I can make friends with a guy at the bus stop in the middle of racist ville usa, now. I even explain to so called racists that they are just not racist, sorry, just assholes. Not everyone can be lucky enough to gain the experience to get through the anger and fear of rejection.

[LWolf]

636. I agree with that.

I think the best way to get past racism and all forms of hate and bigotry is to build a culture of unconditional love.

[MellowDem]

531. Why should anyone hate a group based on skin color?

That's the real question. I'm not shocked a young black women is prejudiced and bigoted towards white people, nor am I shocked when posters like to defend this attitude as justified on this site, but I am saddened.

I understand why the KKK hates black people, but I don't try to justify it, nor do I think there is ever a good reason to hate people for their skin color.

I don't expect everyone to "love" white people as a group. I don't love or hate any whole groups of people for things like skin color, it's not rational. But to hate a group of people based on only their skin color is prejudiced and bigoted. I understand the reasoning behind prejudice and bigotry, if it can be called that, but it's still wrong.

I don't think there is anything any group, especially a group that is entirely made up from a vague identity such as race, can do anything to earn trust and love from everyone else. And anyone who did would be exhbiting positive bigotry.

Honestly, you come across justifying prejudice and bigotry many times with your posts. If you think hating white people is justified, then just come out and say it, and give your reasoning.

[bravenak]

540. They hate the oblivious beneficiaries of white supremacy.

Why is that a surprise when they see how the beneficiaries could give a shit whether they lived or died? There has been no trust built, we STILL live under white supremacy, and one wonders why the victims of white supremacy hate its beneficiaries when they know those same people vote in politicians who steal from them and advocate more police to harrass them? Crazy.

[MellowDem]

618. I'm not surprised...

That some black people would hate whites as a group based on all that, but it's still not rational or helpful, even if it's very human to do so.

I do think it's important to understand the reasoning behind any hatred, no matter how bad the reasoning, in order to know how best to counter it.

[bravenak]

619. Yep. Can't do anything about stuff we don't understand.

If we know things we can start to build trust. Because what they live is not helpful and ignoring it or minimizing it by saying 'thing are better!' causes them to think they are hated or despised and they reflect it back.

[MellowDem]

621. I agree with that...

Many people, especially conservatives, don't understand privilege. They certainly don't seem to care to understand where anger directed at them comes from, much less that legetimate injustices underly some of that anger.

[TheSarcastinator]

547. b/c historically they have been punished terribly when they have not smiled and shucked and jived

when asked to by white culture. Ask Emmet Till why African-Americans should not "love" white people and culture.

[bravenak]

548. I think we may be just about done shucking and jiving.

I think people will be uncomfortable as we clean out America's closets and that's why the outrage at the idea that we don't owe anybody anything. We especially own nothing to white supremacy and it's beneficiaries. The only thing to do is to scream. Be the squaky wheel about to fall off. If they don't want to hear about it, they can fix it. All we do is march march march, take beating and beatings and beatings, prison prison prison, shuck shuck shuck, jive jive jive. This is getting old. Time to be blunt instead of diplomatic. Power cedes nothing without a fight.

[UrbScotty]

555. PBIDOWTFYAM.

[JustAnotherGen]

581. I don't think I've ever seen a thread with this many replies

Cool!

[bravenak]

584. Remember the one about restarting a draft by some liz lady?

Went on for ever, like 1000 replies. Never saw her after that. I better watch what I post! Quick questions are not so quick up in here.

[JustAnotherGen]

587. Let's get it up there

Whatcha making for dinner tonight? I have braised Italian short ribs left over from last Sunday and sauce I'm going to heat up and put over some gluten free pasta. And we have home made Red wine.

I had spinach, cilantro, lime, cucumber juice for breakfast.

And sipping on beet, carrot, orange pepper, green apple, strawberry and a healthy chunk of ginger juice right now.

I've earned my short ribs today!

[bravenak]

591. I'm on my way, what time is dinner?

Lol!!
Just doing a coconut cream pie and a corned beef brisket, i like to make things with too much garlic, so that's what I'm gonna do. I'll just invent a special flavoring for my jus. Vegetables are all yucky up here in the winter, so, just some squash, nothing serious. Kids don't understand how goid vegatables can be.

I wish I was over that way. All I do these days is take these stupid Web Dev classes and cook and eat. It is time to get back in the gym, girl. I feel fluffy.

[JustAnotherGen]

594. Lori Sansone

I can do her walking videos and my Rosetta stone at the same time! Ya gotta multi task!

And I wish you could come for dinner!

[bravenak]

597. Is it walking in place?

I'm going to look her up.
I wish I could have some of that wine too! Need it right now!

[JustAnotherGen]

599. Yep walking in place!

One mile, two mile, up to five!

[bravenak]

600. All right, I think that is workable.

I do that all the time, I better put some pep in my step. I can do five. Might take all day, but I have time and an ipad mini.

[heaven05]

661. Sounds like a meal I will make

today, got some short ribs left over from a sauerkraut, cabbage and short ribs dinner I cooked last sunday. That ginger stuff I have to try also. Alas, no homemade wine..... but I do have wine....I'll try a merlot with this one.....

[KamaAina]

588. This may yet overtake the kudzu thread as DU's longest

and rightfully so.

[bravenak]

595. Omg!!

I should have shut the fuck up, tho. Shit!

[2banon]

624. Problem with this "Quick question".. not exactly well thought out.

Serious discussions deserve a subject line befitting the topic. The other problem is the question itself, totally ridiculous concept. Why should black people love white people.?

Anyone suggesting they should? I didn't think so.

[bravenak]

625. Many were outraged to find that some young black people don't like or trust white people.

I tried my best. But it was just a quick question.

They were appalled at the idea that the VICTIMS of white supremacy may not like or trust the recipients of such. Crazy, right? I spent all day explaining it was more of a trust issue from centuries of unending abuse continuing to this day. I think most understand now that the victims of white supremacy sometimes misidentify lack of trust and anger as hate. Having already experience the emotional roller coaster myself, it was clear to me exactly what the issue was and wanted people to think and discuss it. We discussed it at length. It was NOT quick like i had expected.

[2banon]

630. True Enough! I guess it seemed like such a pedestrian question if not simply a rhetorical devise...

to begin "the dialogue". I guess it worked here judging by the number of replies!

Gotta give ya credit for initiating it.

Hopefully the discussion can be elevated to the next level with the same respondents.

[bravenak]

631. I hope the same people participate next time.

It would be a shame to lose the progress I felt like we made. But this can be a good starting point.

[ZombieHorde]

638. Great question.

I hope you take this further. Love should neither be an obligation nor a taboo. All love and all absence of love is perfectly justified. No exceptions. There is no reason to defend or justify any love or lack of love. Love just is.

[bravenak]

639. Thank you. I agree with you.

Should be freely given.

[JonLP24]

642. I don't know

I've known a lot of racists (or bigots) who weren't just white people, a lot seemed to have a totem pole & black people were at the problem. I don't intend or take them as generalizations because I learned very early & there just anecdotes of just a few examples & the opinions of those individuals but I agree with your larger point.

Not part of my main case but mention it because for the most part -- black people are at-the-bottom of the group totem pole regarding the collective experience but one group mostly on top discriminating & certainly they treat foreign nationals much worse than they could get away (not in a way as transparent) with US citizens but the realities experienced can be similar depending on where & who is in power.

I learned a lot from my ex-wife, very smart. She was more talented than anyone else I ever met in standing up for herself, she moves very easily into the aggressive territory but not usually over things handled in a reasonable way. More specifically, first few weeks I just happened to purchase Captain Blacks Little Sweet Cigars. The guy I grew up with that introduced me to everything, bought a lot of those packs of those at-first. I always liked the flavored filters and was always about the cheapest pack of cigarette sized tobacco rolls at Fry's.

She came home, the smell instantly reminded her of her grandfather who smoked Captain Black tobacco, in a pipe IIRC who was no longer living but at-the-time she came to a conclusion which she obviously by now came to a more fact-based conclusion but she thought possibly I was her dead grandpa because of a few things, I never was concerned with the style or fashion of my clothes neither was he, he never told her no, & he had relationships with White Women which was the reverse in my case but she mentioned that bugged her when she was young. Very honest though withheld the truth more & more often. I can't remember if there were any specifics regarding why except she mentioned out of all her family members, she valued her grandpa the most as someone she could always turn to.

I was deployed in '06-'07 so a lot of times I would mention things that caught my interest in the newspaper -- usually Stars & Stripes (Army Times cost money) two things Kramer & Imus had to have happen between July '06-'07 because I was in Southwest Asia -- I can't remember specifically why she downplayed the Imus thing but regarding Kramer she referenced her own behavior when she lashed out over anger regarding group actions when it came to individuals but this was several years ago but the reason I mention this not to make a point about those 2 as those 2 -- especially Imus sicken me but she obviously treated me as if I had inherently nefarious motives & intentions simply because I was white but over time mentioned previous stronger resentments of a group but I learned a lot of things, saw & experienced things for myself.

I was 18, for some reason I foolishly believed racism only existed in the darkest corners someone I got along with great who lived in the neighborhood & we did construction labor jobs together. Never suspected it until he guessed over a $70 or so I was saving up as a gift she requested (the gift thing I wasn't good at which was never problem -- shopping was like a drug to her, if she was unhappy or depressed a shopping spree was the cure for it) which he gave me hard time with jokes but nothing to be taken seriously until he started guessing & guessed correctly said he "doesn't have a problem with it" but advised me not to have a children referencing future demographic trends basically saying whites are becoming extinct. This was 2005, 5 years later he had a relationship & a child with a black woman (life is very bizarre & telling that bizarre story would require another post).

However, not many in those first 5 months of the relationship which I was a civilian brought up a lot of that since I didn't advertise it. Well, there was this woman who constantly looked at us on the bus then when I was alone on the bus she bombarded me by heavily discouraging to end it though a lot of this was in reference to the age gap but my 19-year-old girlfriend I had before her I don't care about ages when I can experience problems like I had with her or anyone else as she was very rare in-terms of honesty, bluntness, not a lot of smoke & mirrors. My point with that for some reason and I was young & ignorant notions but I was more worried how black people would react than white people. When I joined the military, it was completely by far the other way around.

When someone white would eventually find out, they'd advertise this & regarding this specific individual used a lot of stereotypes with this. When I was out-processing out of the military I had to suffer with him tasked to drive me everywhere, I can't remember but it was road-rage related exclaimed "GOD DAMN * MFERS" I went to the First Sergeant immediately following this but he asked me just to wait-it-out wouldn't reveal but mentioned there was a reason he was tasked with this, he was punished for something and it did look that way. Years after, I came across his Facebook page bouncing across the friends of unit members mentioned he applied for a police department in North Carolina hoping they accept and I didn't check back to see if he had success but he is exactly the wrong kind of person you'd want as a police officer.

I remember she finally did move to Washington which I later realized how difficult & why reluctant she was but 1 vehicle in a new place with me working for a very demanding employer where being there where they want me to be & when overrules everything else which later led to me becoming very disillusioned but right around late November (my birthday was the day she arrived) & our unit had some "mandatory fun" a unit Christmas party, most people I had no idea regarding my personal life, especially when it came to a wife they never saw but you wouldn't believe the stares & the chatter while they were staring & this was coming from people exclusively from white & rural backgrounds though small towns were the norm overall but at-this-point it wasn't a surprise since I overtime I learned who my real friends were & there were cliques galore. Almost nobody white went to social functions predominantly black which I didn't make a point to do one way or the other but in finding out who is real or who isn't.

One huge lesson was there was this very old apartment building but in comparison to what was available with the price they were asking for it was the best deal for an apartment in town. Apparently it has historic ties with the prohibition-era & was used specifically as something for black market alcohol (2007). The situation was I was in financial crisis, she was going back to Arizona, the apartment I was currently paying for was simply unsustainable & so unwilling to work with the reality of my situation and OMG if you can't make it to the office on the first with a money order you get charged more. Anyways, I badly explained my desire & like for her to come back but she mentioned the size of the property is only for 1 person so I went back to the car thought she could better explain but she wisely predicted how ineffective would be even though she was very certain in her tone & everything when she was saying she wasn't coming back here & it was pretty much true but would take too long to explain why but the very old white woman was more opposed to renting the apartment than before she came in there.

I later looked online, I saw something regarding Housing Discrimination -- the distant details again -- but I remember not finding any justifiable reason where she refused the unit. I was so ready to do something but she was resigned to the fact. As a white person, a lot of other white people think that since I'm white it is OK to unload their true beliefs around me. I've heard this constant complain black people constantly complain when they have this, that, this, that basically sell the idea it is easier to start a business, earn an education, find employment if you're a minority but I've seen a lot of racist behavior & how little complaining there was though I think it was more of a shock thing with me than as racist people & racist systems doesn't come as a surprise.

This happened after we split but I was there for a lot of this, the downstairs were unreasonable regarding noise complaints. The kids playing jacks with their uncle would sent them through the roof but often you can quite clearly music playing. Kids can be noisy, I understand but trust me the complaints were over breathing & existing. They weren't rowdy at-all, watched TV the boys were teens who skateboard & bicycled outdoors, basically the sounds of footsteps moving upstairs were the sum of it as well as accusations that were factually incorrect. She told me this went to court after I left and I wish I could have been there to point this out as well their music playing but not only was the judgment entirely against her meaning she had to move out, she had to move from upstairs to somewhere else but the judge also decided to criticize her or give his .02 in a harsh way which really was foolish because of the incomplete & false information as the basis.

I don't think I'm making much sense and I try to be careful in approaching the claims of others but especially under racism topics but everything I said when it comes to claims & behaviors of others is true. There certainly remains a lot left to be learned but I often find myself feeling group hatred especially when a lot of white people think that since I'm white I'll agree with their irrational beliefs which the logic doesn't make any sense, in addition to the problems this ideology creates -- (I can simply say the Housing crisis affected everyone but Latino & black was the hardest hit, the gaps widened receives a simple "I'm not so sure about that." or say they don't buy it but it is as if they don't receive other people -- people in positions of power -- believe the same things they do I don't know or prejudge them over something they didn't choose

[heaven05]

655. one final comment

GREAT OP and consequent thread. Really got my neurons crackling!!!!!!!

[bravenak]

660. Thank you.

I've been thinking hard on it too.

[WhiteTara]

656. The only reason would be from compassion

for idiots. But I can't think of much we have done that is good in terms of race.

[McCamy Taylor]

657. Because you have to love others to love yourself. Hate the actions not the person.

That is the key to a happy life. I have no defense for the actions of the ruling white hegemony. However, if you can manage to hate the actions without hating the person, then you will be able to love and accept yourself. Racism does its nasty work, in part, by fostering self loathing and despair.

[gordianot]

676. Judging character linked to melanin in your skin?

In large groups the entire human race is not lovable and skin tone has played a part. As for myself the color of human ear wax makes more sense to judge people how can anyone value someone with grey earwax? I am still trying to cope after finding out I have Neanderthal ancestors some 50,000 years ago. Mixed race hell that is mixed species.

[bravenak]

677. Should have read the thread.

[gordianot]

678. I did, makes me sad on many different levels, no fault of yours.

But I have been that way for a long time now and cannot blame the thread. Considering the belief system how I was raised, and how I am now, what I have learned, my cognitive thread could be best described as "alienated". This is in spite of privileges I recognize, overall income with no need to scrabble for survival, the state of the human condition is at best tenuous.

[bravenak]

679. This particular issue depresses me too.

Life is just not fair, and in America, being black just increases the unfairness. I have always gated living under white supremacy. There is no escape. I'd like for it to change, but it won't. Not until the owners of privilege all give it up for the common good. Will never happen. Things going on so long like this, I believe will lead to vigilantism.

[gordianot]

680. In the early 1970's I took a class on Slavery in Missouri known at the time as Black Studies.

One of the stories my Grandmother told was passed down from her Grandfather who lived on the Missouri River and was a slave owner. After telling the story to my Professor we talked with my Grandmother. As she told the story her Great-grandfather armed slaves in the 1840's in response to Mormons in Missouri. She knew this was a Capital offense in 1840's Missouri so that part was most likely true. Her negative attitude persisted against Mormons to that day. Missouri had laws on the books until the 1960's declaring armed actions on all Mormons. It was very possible we had found a living remnant of Missouri Mormon Wars. The most fascinating part was the story she told of her Grandfather raiding a barge with his slaves on the Missouri River and killing men, women and children with Cholera. What impressed the most about the story my Grandmother told she had no way of knowing about the cholera epidemic among Mormons fleeing to Illinois. State archives does document conflict in this part of the State and we found some mention of the names involved but nothing about a massacre.

As to crass nasty violent predatory institutional racism it is alive and well in this part of Missouri especially St. Louis. All any doubters need to do is read the Ferguson DOJ report and they may not be the worst in St. Louis County.

[bravenak]

681. That is a shocking tale in more ways than one.

Because of this I'm going to read more into the history of the area. I like to read about stuff like that. You know, I had no idea there was ever such a thing as Mormon wars, but I did know that they had been run off from places. I had assumed it was the multi bride ststem that made people no want them there.
I have always been uncomfortable with Mormonism since I had a black mormon friend. She finally left the church but sh left with the strangest notions. Pre history wars in heaven with black people on lucifers side, whites on Jesus' side. She really believed that she was black because of her pre sins. So sad. I may be a bit like your Grandmother in my feeling about that particular religion. I try not to be but I am biased. Very interesting that I would have probably been there on the side of the slavers in some way. All these intersections and strange occurences interest me greatly. People are more similar than I like to believe.

But, yeah. Ferguson is all over the USA. I think we can give it a go at fixing stuff. We really have no excuse this far out from slavery for things to be this way. We are damn near all related and should stop it. Maybe a national family tree project? I'm about to buy that dna swab that prints a map of your relatives in different places. I think they have a service where you can meet other people who have done it and are related to you. There shoukd be a project to get all of us to do it, meet our relatives of another color and start the reconciliation process through communication and education. And person to person contact. If more racist found out their great grandma was black/white, I think it might help a bit with the empathy levels. Bring us togeher. If I had any idea of how to START a non profit and get donation I'd do it myself. But, I never learned that. Thinking about looking into it though if I find folks who know how and want to be a part of it. With the advent of the internet, I think anything is possible. I love technology. Anyways, that's my thing I wanna do about it. Hopefully one day. I'd like to have a family reunion with a wide range of perfect strangers to meet.

[gordianot]

682. Life is complicated there are some relatives you may not want to know about.

When George H. W. Bush became head of the CIA my Grandfather announced at the time he was a distant cousin and he met his Father once in Kansas. Not paying attention to my Grandfather who stated that "must be (Prescott's ? boy), it sort of fits in that his Grandfather had oil wells and was in the oil business. That is one possible relationship I ignore as do many contemporary Bush relatives.

Try DNA testing that is always a revelation and they can match specific ancestral lines by region . In that the Human Species originated from a very small population in Africa 70,000 to 40,000 (nothing in Geological time) DNA testing can show origins based on changes in DNA differentiation from migration. If your ancestors are from Africa there is more genetic differentiation in that migration was more localized. Since Neanderthals were not in Africa that DNA came from somewhere else. I have about 4% Neanderthal DNA and I do claim my Neanderthal ancestors who were most likely female (the males like most mules were sterile).

The objection to Mormons in the Missouri Mormon Wars they were seen as land squatters and bushwhackers. Joesph Smith told his followers that Missouri was the original Garden of Eden. Some areas are so poor today land could be bought up cheap.