Bill Maher is really turning into a vile racist

[One of the 99]

So glad that Fareed Zakaria took him on tonight.

[Renew Deal]

1. Turning into?

[One of the 99]

2. True but he has been getting worse of late nt

[DesertFlower]

3. when it comes to islam he is racist.

[One of the 99]

5. Not just islam.

Throughout 2008 he called then Senator Obama 'Chocolate Jesus'. If Rush or anyone on FAUX did that the there would have been screams of racism from most.

Also, whenever an African-American speaks forcefully or passionately on an issue, Maher immediately calls them 'Reverand', something he has never called a white person. He did it to Michael Eric Dyson a few years back and the man looked like he had been slapped in the face when Maher said it. Dyson hasn't been on the show since.

[DesertFlower]

8. well he's anti religion in general but more so when it comes

to islam.

i'm an atheist but i feel everyone has a right to practice their religion.

[One of the 99]

10. He is selectively anti-religion

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/bill-maher-says-islam-and-christianity-are-warlike-religions-but-israel-kicked-ass-in-its-little-war

[Jamaal510]

44. Good point.

I never heard him single out other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism. He'll either just broad-brush Islam or Christianity, or use them to bash religion in general.

[samsingh]

356. because those religions are inspiring terrorism on a global scale

[Tommy2Tone]

167. Practicing religion is not the issue.

Using religion to wage war and make laws is the issue.

[PassingFair]

179. Even if the religion makes women second class citizens?

With no self-determination?
Screw that. No excuses.

[samsingh]

355. without killing nonbelievers i would hope

[kelly1mm]

9. One cannot be 'racist' against Islam (or any other religion) as Islam is not a race. Bigoted,

yes. Racist, no.

[One of the 99]

11. So we are playing semantics games?

Good way to avoid the issue.

[kelly1mm]

31. Perhaps if the poster would have used the correct term so many of the posters in this thread

would not have called the poster out on it.

edit as the OP jumped into a conversation and I did not reply to the correct person

[Darb]

37. Racism is racism, bigotry is bigotry

Semantics do not apply.

[peequod]

61. Semantics always apply

...otherwise we're all lost in haze of confused meanings when we debate.

[AngryAmish]

267. You can't be racist against white people.

[whathehell]

278. Of course you can. n/t

[truebrit71]

233. No semantics involved. Religion is not race. Period.

Or did you get to choose which race you are?

[One of the 99]

363. But it is not just he comments on Muslims

http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

[H2O Man]

243. Not at all.

Using words incorrectly actually takes the focus away from an important topic. If, for example, the OP referred to Maher's stance on Islam as "sexist," it would be equally incorrect, and prone to cause confusion.

Bigotry, racism, and sexism are triplets, for sure. But they are distinct -- even though they frequently overlap.

[One of the 99]

249. But I was refering to more than his views on Islam.

[H2O Man]

258. What else?

Your OP was about the exchanges between Maher and Fareed Zakaria, which were entirely about Maher's frequently anti-Islamic rants.

[One of the 99]

273. How about....

Throughout 2008 he called then Senator Obama 'Chocolate Jesus'. If Rush or anyone on FAUX did that the there would have been screams of racism from most.

Also, whenever an African-American speaks forcefully or passionately on an issue, Maher immediately calls them 'Reverand', something he has never called a white person. He did it to Michael Eric Dyson a few years back and the man looked like he had been slapped in the face when Maher said it. Dyson hasn't been on the show since.

Or maybe this: http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

[TransitJohn]

301. It's not semantics

They're two quite disparate concepts.

[samsingh]

357. the issue is that some religions inspire and support terrorism

bill has the courage to say it like it is.

[hifiguy]

16. Yep. Religion is CHOSEN.

What we call "race" (which is arbitrary, technically there is only one human race) is something you're born into. It's not semantics, it's a fact. A Jew can become a christian, a black person cant convert to being Asian.

[ronnie624]

22. Not true.

In Texas, to most white people, anyone from Central Asia is I-rainian, whether they are Muslim or not or whether they are from Iran or not. It is unadulterated racism.

[truebrit71]

235. That's different. People in Texas choose to be stupid.

But again, that's a choice.

[Binkie The Clown]

254. That sounds like anti-Texan racisim to me.

[truebrit71]

260. ROFLMFAO

[Hekate]

32. Only in America, and even then the overwhelming majority stick with their inherited religion

Don't confuse America with the rest of the world -- we really are odd that way.

New religions were invented here (ie, Mormonism) and mostly people just moved someplace else in the big new land instead of being the object of all-out wars against heresy, as had been the practice in Europe. Christian Congregations divided and built a new church on the other side of the village commons. Utopian communities built their little towns and were left alone. Oddballs read the King James Bible on their own and took up preaching without need of credentials.

This is not how it is done in most of the rest of the world.

It is useful to make the distinction between religion and race, or nationality and race, but although these categories are all fluid, most people really don't make choices.

PS about the Jews: one thing I learned from all these decades with my husband and his family is that Judaism is a tribal and ethnic identity, not just a religion.

[stone space]

164. Religion is culture (as is race), and many people are born into it.

In addition, while your religion tends to follow you around wherever you go, your race can change back and forth by an action as simple as crossing an imaginary line on a map.

[Heidi]

218. Yep. And although it's also cultural, it can be UNCHOSEN.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and I know from experience that religion and religious culture can be UNCHOSEN.

[treestar]

221. I don't think it is quite that clear

You are often raised in a religion, surrounded by people of that religion. Or other sects of the same one.

It must be harder for Muslims, in that the religion is so much more pervasive where they are. I was raised Catholic, but went to school with Methodists and Presbyterians, etc. One one Jewish kid.

As an adult my life go more diverse, with many more Jewish people and atheists/agnostics.

I think that is what helps. And thus it is harder for Muslims. When they come to the West to immigrate, it may be one thing they really have to get used to.

[Scootaloo]

24. Well, except that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are nonwhites...

Seriously, one can't just sidestep that fact's contribution to islamophobic bigotry in "The West."

[Bluenorthwest]

181. Yes but Muslim is not a race, it is a religion chosen by people of all races, Muslims are not all

Arabic, nor Persian, there are of course millions of Indonesian, African, 23% of US Muslims are black, another 26% are from South Asia.
To claim that a chosen behavior is an inborn characteristic is not really accurate. I know people in many faiths who were born in another faith, I have never met anyone who was born white who did not remain white. Born Asian, die Asian. Born Catholic, die B'hai, Muslim, Baptist, whatever, the world is your buffet of options, religions wise. Some individuals run through a number of them in a lifetime.
This particular area of verbiage is where many of the people who defend religion end up sounding like anti gay bigots from the far right wing, because they suggest that religion is also inborn and immutable which it very clearly and demonstratively is not. They do so in order to co-opt teh gay.
Islam and Christianity both seek converts. The practice of each of those faiths makes the choice of religious faith not only explicit but a very basic element of the faiths. If religion is like race or sexuality, an inborn characteristic, then why do both Muslims and Christians seek to convert not only one another but those in other faiths to their own faith?

[H2O Man]

244. Solid, valid, and important points.

Thank you for this.

I would add that there are white people who are Islamic, as well. Indeed, that fact played an important role in Minister Malcolm X's becoming a greater leader in the final years of his life.

[phil89]

328. Race is a social construct

Right?

[merrily]

149. It seems to me that he means Muslims of Arab descent.

I haven't heard much from Maher about, for example, Muslims in Indonesia or the Philippines. However, I don't watch his show regularly, so maybe I've missed his references.

[kelly1mm]

157. I am prettty sure he has bad feelings about any muslims, or at least extreamist muslims of

any race or ethnic origin.

[merrily]

162. What makes you pretty sure of that? Have you heard him discuss any group but Muslims who are Arabs

of of Arab descent, "terrorists," people who make women cover, people who stone homosexuals, etc? I have not.

[kelly1mm]

166. Yes. Specifically Indian muslims in terroist attacks in Mumbai and Nigerian muslims that took

those girls hostage about a year ago.

[merrily]

294. Good to know.

[kelly1mm]

169. Mexican is not a race. Mexican refers to a person from Mexico and/or with Mexican

citizenship. There are Mexicans of many races.

Islam is a religion. There are Muslims or many races.

Words do have actual meanings.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

194. It's called a nationality. Just like there is no Canadian or Jamaican race. This "didn’t just

happen on the Internet". Words have meaning.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

210. It's not on the Internet. I grew up in Puerto Rico and we were taught about nationalities and races.

What "race" do black and white Mexicans belong to? You do know they have them too, I would assume. This is not some shit that just happened.

[H2O Man]

241. Right.

I wish that I could "recommend" this. It is as incorrect to call him "racist" for his stance on Islam, as it would be to call him "sexist" for it. Words are funny things -- they actually have meaning. Thus, communication of ideas is enhanced by using words correctly, and blurred by using words incorrectly.

Thank you.

[MADem]

26. He's anti-religion. ISLAM has NOTHING to do with RACE.

"Muslim" is not a RACE. "Arab" is not a RACE. And more to the point, not all Muslims are Arabs. In fact, MOST aren't.

Maher is not a "racist." He is virulently opposed to religions. He did a movie about it.

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

[Scootaloo]

29. "Arab is not a race"?

I'm sure Arabs around the world are happy you finally cleared that up for them. it must be a relief that a white guy from Massachusetts has finally corrected their daffy self-misconceptions.

[Quantess]

36. Are jews and muslims the same "race"?

What is your definition of race, anyway? Is "muslim a "race" to you? Because it isn't a race, it is a religion.

[Scootaloo]

40. Arabs often refer to themselves as a race. I'm not inclined to tell them they're wrong

By the way, I went and found this thread... I must say your posts in support of neo-Naziism in Europe targeting Muslims is rather elucidating.

[Quantess]

46. Nice ad hominem, there.

So... are muslims and jews the same "race" then?

How exactly is a religion a race? Because it isn't.

[Scootaloo]

50. I thought the subthread was in regards to Arabs?

And the point there is, if an Arab feels that "Arab" is a race, you have no room to tell them they are wrong. Race is about self-identification, after all.

By the by, for something to be ad hominem, it needs to be irrelevant to the discussion. I think your obvious support for anti-Muslim bigotry is in fact very relevant to the overall discussion.

[MADem]

48. What? You should think about deleting THAT post--that's a nasty call out, and there's nothing in

the single post of Quantess at that dire link of yours that says anything about "suppporting Neo-Naziism."

Let's quote what Quantess actually said, and clear the fucking air, here, in response to a comment she was responding to where a poster talked about about 'keeping an eye on' a specific group of nationalists:

Quantess (26,458 posts)
14. Hate as a response to hate (ISIS, terror attacks, etc)

Just about every european nation is becoming more and more anti-immigrant. So you may want to keep your eye on all of europe.

There's nothing in that comment that is not true--the only people who haven't noticed the rise of the far right in Europe (UKIP in UK, Marine Le Pen in France, etc.) are the people who have a knee-jerk attitude that Europe is "leftish" no matter what. It's not true anymore, and hasn't been for awhile. Quantess didn't say anything that people who read the papers don't already know -- yet you are maligning and impugning her caracter and suggesting, FALSELY, that she is "in support of neo-Naziism." Shame on you. Saying something like this:

Scootaloo
40. Arabs often refer to themselves as a race. I'm not inclined to tell them they're wrong
View profile
By the way, I went and found this thread... I must say your posts in support of neo-Naziism in Europe targeting Muslims is rather elucidating.

takes her single comment (not "posts" as you claim--you're getting everything wrong this evening, aren't you?) COMPLETELY out of context and accuses her of something she didn't say. Total fail on your part. Deliberate misdirection and misinterpretation for the purposes of maligning and impugning her character, if you ask me.

You owe her an apology.

[Scootaloo]

51. That post tried to justify anti-Muslim bigotry in germany by invoking Daesh

it was followed by this exchange:

cosmicone (6,875 posts)
10. The muslims brought it upon themselves by harboring,

aiding and abetting the extremist crazies amongst them instead of reporting those people to the authorities.

Quantess (26,459 posts)
15. Agreed!

it's a nasty pair of posts from a poster, which are getting some sunlight here in this thread, where the same poster is trying to cover for Bill Maher's rather nasty islamophobic bigotry.

Now. Care to talk bout your self-granted authority to tell people other than yourself that htye are or are not a race, as decided by yourself?

[MADem]

54. You are taking her comments out of context and doing it proudly.

You don't have to "agree" that Arabs are not a race, but like I said, it helps everyone understand where you're coming from when you double down on something so basic.

Do you use the word "oriental" in referring to people, too?

[Scootaloo]

57. No, I'm most assuredly not

if one person says that Muslims deserve the bigotry targeting them, and a second person says "agreed!" then the context is that the second person agrees that Muslims deserve bigotry. Further context is her using Islamist militants in Syria as justification for anti-Muslim hate in Germany.

You know you can't just claim "out of context" and hope it nullifies an argument you don't like, right? Your friend has said some nasty, islamophobic stuff. You can use the search feature to find plenty more, if you don't believe me.

And i'm doubling down on the reality that you do not have the right to tell someone what they are or are not, when it comes to something defined by self-identity.

Do you use the word "oriental" in referring to people, too?

I don't. Where does that come from?

[MADem]

63. You don't challenge her in the context of the comments. You ignore her remarks about the

rise of the right in Europe, and accuse her of being a neo-Nazi in a separate post far removed from that discussion. It's a cheap shot.

People, many of them older, who hold the outdated views you keep doubling down on, use words like "oriental" to describe individuals. They don't do it to be mean (or "racist" dare I say), they do it because they don't understand the difference between race, ethnicity and nationality.

[Scootaloo]

68. I don't need to.

I'm using her past opining on the subject of Muslims and islamophobia to illustrate and underscore her position in this particular discussion on the subject. And for the record, one might say to "keep an eye" on something they admire as much as something they detest. I'm afraid her "agreed!" that Muslims deserve bigotry points towards the latter.

People, many of them older, who hold the outdated views you keep doubling down on, use words like "oriental" to describe individuals. They don't do it to be mean (or "racist" dare I say), they do it because they don't understand the difference between race, ethnicity and nationality.

I see. And had I done such I could understand why you would ask. But I haven't, so I'm perplexed.

I'm explaining to you that you do not actually have the authority to proclaim what is or is not a race, and who does or does not belong to it. I suppose that if they're claiming part of whatever group you belong to, you can - but it's still kind of dickish. You don't know what's going on with them.

[MADem]

70. The "authority" comes from a person's DNA. Race is not a "lifestyle choice."

Ethnicity can be, though--look at "Juan" Bush, the former governor of Florida--he managed to acquire an Hispanic ethnicity with the stroke of a pen. Italian-heritage notwithstanding, Pope Francis has an Hispanic heritage too, as a consequence of being born in and growing up in South America, eating the food of the region, speaking the Spanish language, and being educated in the local schools.

[Scootaloo]

73. The last thing you want to bring into your argument is DNA, MADem

because nothing will destroy your "there are only X amount of races, and I get to say who is what" position faster than genetics will.

[MADem]

75. DNA will tell you very clearly where you're from, and the percentages of your heritage.

Africa (sub-saharan or otherwise), Europe, Asia, etc.

But that's different from ethnicity--your DNA heritage, your RACE, may be from one place, and your ethnicity may be from somewhere else.

"Arab" is NOT a race.

[Scootaloo]

83. The genetic "map" of humankind is nowhere near so simple, MADem

and it certainly does not follow the archaic efforts to order the human species into distinct and easily-defined groupings.

In fact depending on which genes you're looking at, you end up with radically different "maps."

And this is without taking into consideration the fact that genes can be "lost' in the shuffle of sexual reproduction. For an example; most of the people in the world outside of sub-saharan Africa can find ancestry from a mingling of H. sapiens coming out of Africa, and neanderthals and denisovans who were already in eurasia at the time. That these three groups bred together is in no dispute at this point, we have genetic identifiers. Now the thing is, only a relatively small number (in terms of human population; it's still a lot of people) actually have those specific genes. This does not mean that they are the only living descendants of these archaic humans - it means they are the only lineages that those particular genes have persisted in. Almost all their neighbors who lack the marker genes are ALSO descendants of neanderthal / denisovan / sapiens swinger parties.

genetics cripples any biological basis for the concept of 'race." To explain race trhough the processes of hte human body, one must move to psychology - Race is social.

[MADem]

86. Word salad notwithstanding, "Arab is not a race."

http://www.adc.org/education/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/

[Scootaloo]

90. I'm sorry I tore your argument a new one with your own prop

if a person says "My race is Arab" then that is so. if someone says "My culture is Arab, but my race is white," then that is so, also. Both people can exist in the same world, and you don't have to like it if you don't want to.

[MADem]

95. You didn't tear a hole in anything except your own sad insistence, despite Arabs telling you

otherwise.

Arab is NOT a race.

Read the link. Or don't. It's not a feeling. It's not a choice. Arab is just not a race.

The places one reads this "Arab race" stuff (usually framed pejoratively) are sites that are not generally linked to places like DU, and are blocked at schools and libraries.

[Scootaloo]

102. Race is self-identified, MADem

And if someone says that their race is Arab, that's up to them. Not you. not me. Not The American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

The places one reads this "Arab race" stuff (usually framed pejoratively) are sites that are not generally linked to places like DU, and are blocked at schools and libraries.

Much as with your "orientals" jab, this is a nonsensical red herring.

[MADem]

104. But Arab is not a race. You've been told.

Is "Massachusettsian" a race? "New Yorker?" Because that's the same kind of foolishness--you can't take any old word that isn't a race, and declare that it is a race.

Well, you CAN, if you'd like, and people will take a certain view of you.

Arab is not a race. ARABS are telling you this.

Read that link until you start to understand.

[Scootaloo]

109. I dunno. is it? Do you identify racially as "Massachusettsian"?

If you do, good for you. What's the problem there?

I'm really baffled by your overwhelming need to dominate and control how others would identify, MADem. You are absolutely, bug-eyed, purple-faced outraged that someone might defy you as to how they identify racially.

And yet you still have not provided even the remotest detail on how you classify "races." if you're going to do as you're doing, you need ot set up frameworks. Definitions. Quotas and limits and bars. You need a system, some organization to correctly measure and categorize the whole of humanity according to how you perceive the definition of "race."

Apparently you have such a system.

And this is the fifth time I've asked for it.

[MADem]

113. Arab is not a race. Arabs have told you this.

Massachusettsian isn't a race either.

You may live in a world where people can just make stuff up, but you're in a distinct minority if that's the case.

Here's a "system" for you--when Arabs tell you that "Arab is not a race" you should take them at their word and not play the "Scootaloo knows better than those Arabs" game.

Maybe go visit a few Arab nations, have a look around--that'll help cement the notion in your mind. Or not. But keep reading that link until you appreciate what those Arabs are trying to tell you.

[Scootaloo]

120. And Arabs have also told me it is.

The only recourse is to leave it to the individual to identify as they feel appropriate for themselves.

I have met people who "look black" but do not identify as such. I've met people who "look white" but also do not identify as such. And plenty of course who identify how they "look."

I put 'look" in quotes because - I need you to understand this - my perceptions do not define who they are. That is up to them to figure out, and, if they so choose, inform other.

I live in a world where there is no reliable and consistent way to absolutely and assuredly defined people's race. it's a world of biology, migration, adoption, a myriad of cultures each with a myriad of perceptions as to what is and is not a 'race" The one and only way to work it is to just go with what someone tells you about themselves, because you very surely do not know better than that person does.

i find it very strange that you keep trying to appropriate this point in order to sell me the idea that some dude from Massachusetts has absolute final say over what other people get to call themselves. No one appointed you. no one even asked you.

[MADem]

131. Yeah, sure they have. Arab is not a race--go read that link by Arabs telling you so. nt

[PassingFair]

182. Please stop. You've lost this one.

You're wrong.

[AngryAmish]

275. Is mexican a race?

La Raza thinks so.

[MADem]

279. Lo siento, pero eso es un nacionalidad. nt

[WinkyDink]

116. So, you agree with Humpty-Dumpty that a word means what you want it to?

[Scootaloo]

127. I have stated my position quite clearly

The only way to handle racial identity is to leave it to the individual themselves.

Is it confusing somehow?

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. Though that organisation complains about racism against Arabs

eg

The billboards, which contain extremely negative and racist images of Arabs and Arab cultural symbols, misleadingly utilize false stereotypes and racist rhetoric to push an anti-immigrant agenda.

http://www.adc.org/media/press-releases/2005/december-2005/advertising-firm-will-not-post-racist-billboards-in-north-carolina/

So it seems pointless to start a long argument about whether one should call something insulting about Arabs 'racist'.

[MADem]

108. A ten year old article about billboards that showed racist pictures of Arabs doesn't really

have much to do with the simple statement that "Arab is not a race." FWIW, this is the billboard they were objecting to--they had an entirely valid point, IMO:



This subthread's focus is not racism, though the organization quoted has a goal of battling discrimination/stereotypes against Arabs, it's about race as opposed to culture or ethnicity.

Arab is not a race.

[Scootaloo]

114. Wait.

billboards that showed racist pictures of Arabs

"Arab is not a race."

i thought the bars closed at three!

[MADem]

118. "Racist" in the sense of "bigoted." It is a shorthand word for discrimination.

The words "race" and "racist" are not interchangeable.

Maybe you should get down off the barstool....?

Arab is not a race, but it is possible to be ethnically biased against Arabs as a consequence of their cultural heritage. You know, like when an Arab tells you something about their heritage, but a person disregards it because they think they know better than the Arabs trying to explain it...?

[Scootaloo]

123. I see. So you've decided to annul the entire point of your argument starting from Post #26

All you're left with now is your belief that you are entitled to dictate the identity of other people. Why are you so entitled?

[MADem]

126. No. Sorry, no sale. Arab is NOT a race.

Arabs have told you this.

Deal with it.

[Scootaloo]

133. Arabs have also told me otherwise, and you are not worth anything as a tie-breaker

I am content to say "it's up to the individual." Frankly it seems the only way to go for any given grouping.

I'm not sure why you have such a deep and aggressive need to make determinations for people other than yourself, MADem. Do you get something out of it?

[MADem]

134. So why, if people get to decide what they are, doesn't everybody put "African American" on their

applications to law school, hoping for a leg up owing to diversity goals ....hmmmm? And then, when they show up for the interview looking like the Blinding White Celtic Lord of the Dance or Amy Tan, say "Scootaloo said it was OK!"

Arab is NOT a race.

You've been told--by Arabs.

[Scootaloo]

136. Because they do not identify as African-American.

Seriously, I fail to see what your struggle with these concepts is. It's pretty elementary.

And - it bears repeating - I have been told Arabs are a race. By Arabs as well. And so the only solution to the quandary, is to leave it up to the individual to identify as they feel is appropriate.

[MADem]

140. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Who wouldn't identify as African, or Native North American, or Name Your Favorite Diverse and Rare Racial Category, if it boosted one's chances of getting into a good school?

If the "rule according to Scootaloo" was that anyone can be what they claim they are, then why wouldn't everyone go looking for a "diversity bonus" by claiming racial affiliation in order to boost a college or university's diversity goals?

I have to say that it's odd that you've suddenly remembered all these "Arabs" who told you they regard their culture as a race. I'm sorry, but I am just not convinced by this sudden declaration on your part.

I think you need to re-read the link I provided to you, and try to take that lesson to heart. Arab is not a race, and the Arabs who wrote that article I provided to you would know--certainly better than you.

[Scootaloo]

143. Because people don't actually think that way, MADem.

You've set your Tucker Carlson-brand bowtie all a-spin with slippery slope surrealist arguments, but the reality is just that a person's self-identity is deeply internalized, core to their self-perception. People don't swap it on and off like a pair of pants. They certainly won't do so because you demand it.

[MADem]

148. Ahhhh, we're down to personal insult!!

Calling me one of the most odious individuals ever to blight television, no less!! How low will you go?

Arab is NOT a race. People are free to "internalize" the culture, the heritage, the ethnic flavors of the society, but their race is (or races are) determined by their DNA.

And people DO "think like that." That's why that dumb-ass movie got MADE.

You're seriously suggesting that if people bought off on your half-baked "I can be whatever race I think I am" argument that people wouldn't try it on for size all the time, and that universities would buy off on that?

Someone should have told Trayvon to snap his fingers and "turn white" the minute that Zimmerman cretin starting stalking him to kill him--oh well, if only he'd been aware of the "Scootaloo Rule!"

[Scootaloo]

150. No, no, I figured you have a bowtie in common, is all

You try to present a wholly brainless scenario as a 'real problem' then demand answers to this "problem." Each post of yours is more high-pitched, more inane, more full of fallacy and whattaboutisms than the last. All in your effort to control how peopel you regard as inferior to you may or may not identify themselves, according to a set of standards you and you alone know.

meanwhile Tucker Carlson actually makes money by doing that stuff. You're nothing like him.

Arab is NOT a race.

You have completely failed to define what a race is, how many there are, and the standards by which they are measured and categorized. Seven times, now.

I assume you DO have such definitions, else your argument would be impossible. Why not show the definitions?

Until you provide convincing evidence that you have solved - clearly, totally solved - a problem that has been plaguing human societies since before the written word, i'm going to stick by what I've been saying all along - how a person identifies is up to that person.

Enjoy your movie.

[MADem]

170. Keep digging that hole--now we're on to "brainless?" What other insults can you come up with?

You've lost the bubble on your thesis, so now you're down to name calling. OK.

You might try reading what I've written--I have defined race. It's where your DNA takes you, not what you imagine in your head. I've said this more than once, but you have to actually read the responses before you start in on your next reply.

I provided you with a link by a respected Arab Anti-Discrimination organization, telling you that Arab is NOT a race. In response, you refer to this as a "a wholly brainless scenario" that you, apparently, don't regard as a "real problem." Well, the Arabs who wrote that article regard it as not brainless AND a "real problem" -- otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to point it out for your edification.

So, let's see, you've flung these gems at me: "Tucker Carlson" and "brainless" and "inane." You've accused me (??) of wearing a bowtie--is there something I'm missing, there? Are you trying to suggest I'm a member of the Nation of Islam, or something? Not sure where you're going with that comment, frankly--you'll need to explain that to me.

Then you move on to "high pitched?" What's up with that? Is that some kind of attempt at an insult as well? Do you mean "girly" or something? And then you sketch out some insulting scenario in your head -- and yours alone--that I regard some people as "inferior." And then you curry favor towards Tucker Carlson over me (who has that superior - inferior thing going on, hmmmm?) because ...he makes money on TV? THAT's your "good guy" standard?

OK, we're learning more every minute here, I guess!

You've failed in presenting your argument. You're resorting to really cheap insult now, saying stuff you just can't take back. This post of yours is worth saving, for all the nastiness in it:

Scootaloo
150. No, no, I figured you have a bowtie in common, is all
View profile
You try to present a wholly brainless scenario as a 'real problem' then demand answers to this "problem." Each post of yours is more high-pitched, more inane, more full of fallacy and whattaboutisms than the last. All in your effort to control how peopel you regard as inferior to you may or may not identify themselves, according to a set of standards you and you alone know.

meanwhile Tucker Carlson actually makes money by doing that stuff. You're nothing like him.

Arab is NOT a race.


You have completely failed to define what a race is, how many there are, and the standards by which they are measured and categorized. Seven times, now.

I assume you DO have such definitions, else your argument would be impossible. Why not show the definitions?

Until you provide convincing evidence that you have solved - clearly, totally solved - a problem that has been plaguing human societies since before the written word, i'm going to stick by what I've been saying all along - how a person identifies is up to that person.

Enjoy your movie.

[muriel_volestrangler]

151. Why did you, in #26, leap on the use in #3 of 'racist' to refer to Islam, then?

If "it is a shorthand word for discrimination", you could have just avoided this whole sorry sub-thread in the first place. The poster they called 'racist' has a stereotype of clothing, and that's it.

[MADem]

153. You need to link if you want me to go there--this thread is too long. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

159. OK, since you're unable to read numbers now, here's the links:

DesertFlower:

3. when it comes to islam he is racist.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6488119

You:

26. He's anti-religion. ISLAM has NOTHING to do with RACE.

"Muslim" is not a RACE. "Arab" is not a RACE. And more to the point, not all Muslims are Arabs. In fact, MOST aren't.

Maher is not a "racist." He is virulently opposed to religions. He did a movie about it.

Why is this a surprise to anyone?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6488293

You:

108. A ten year old article about billboards that showed racist pictures of Arabs doesn't really

have much to do with the simple statement that "Arab is not a race." FWIW, this is the billboard they were objecting to--they had an entirely valid point, IMO:



This subthread's focus is not racism, though the organization quoted has a goal of battling discrimination/stereotypes against Arabs, it's about race as opposed to culture or ethnicity.

Arab is not a race.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6488805

You:

118. "Racist" in the sense of "bigoted." It is a shorthand word for discrimination.

The words "race" and "racist" are not interchangeable.

Maybe you should get down off the barstool....?

Arab is not a race, but it is possible to be ethnically biased against Arabs as a consequence of their cultural heritage. You know, like when an Arab tells you something about their heritage, but a person disregards it because they think they know better than the Arabs trying to explain it...?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6488832

So, you believe that 'racist' "is a shorthand word for discrimination", but you objected to its use about something that is not a race. If you had remembered that you think it is a shorthand word for discrimination, you could have avoided posting #26 in the first place.

[MADem]

180. Look, I've said what I have to say on this topic throughout this thread.

If you REALLY care about my views on this topic, I invite you to read every post I've made on this subject in this thread, and they will become clear to you.

But thanks for your input.

[muriel_volestrangler]

186. Yes, your views are *inconsistent* - I read them, and am now pointing out to you

that you are inconsistent, and have just quoted several of your posts to show you, since you had forgotten, and were unable to type '#3' and '#26' into your browser's search function.

What I really care about is that you are pestering other DUers for the sake of pestering them. I'm saying it would have been better for the thread if you had never started.

[MADem]

190. Ignore is your friend--use it.Since this is not your thread, your nannying is inappropriate at best.

I am not here to tailor my conversations to please you--and if you recall, you inserted yourself into this exchange solely to chastise me over something you could have figured out if you'd just kept reading.

Have a nice day, now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

199. It's not your thread, either. So your nannying in #26 was inappropriate at best

according to your current feeling, that is - but we know how inconsistent you are. No, I couldn't have figured out that you think 'racist' is shorthand for discrimination, without inserting myself into the exchange, because you only admitted that after I pointed out the Arab organisation you quoted use it in that fashion. Before that, you were chastising people for applying it it to anything other than RACE, as you were shouting at people.

[MADem]

202. Like I said, you have a nice day, now. nt

[samsingh]

358. you are making some valid points

[MADem]

361. People who are "America-centric" can't believe that there are other places in the world that are

diverse in terms of population!

[stone space]

171. Race is not biological. It is not genetic. Race is cultural.

The "authority" comes from a person's DNA.

[MADem]

195. No. That's not accurate. Many races make up the American culture.

We're not all the same. This is also true in the Middle East, which includes the Arab world, as well.

[stone space]

197. What is it that is not accurate?

No. That's not accurate.

[MADem]

203. Try reading the whole thing again. nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026488109#post195

[stone space]

205. This is what I didn't quote before.

Many races make up the American culture. We're not all the same. This is also true in the Middle East, which includes the Arab world, as well.

Mainly because nothing that I posted contradicts any of this.

[MADem]

209. If you aren't taking the rather basic point, I'm sorry that I can't help you further. nt

[stone space]

295. The basic point is that race is not a biological or genetic category.

It is cultural.

If you aren't taking the rather basic point, I'm sorry that I can't help you further.

I'm not looking for help.

Did you think that I was?

[MADem]

313. Yes, those whites can now ask for minority diversity consideration on their college applications

because they claim a "cultural" affiliation with a minority community. Only no--they can't.

I really don't care if you're looking, or not, but by your comments you could apparently benefit from a bit of nuance on this issue.

[stone space]

319. I don't know who you are talking about.

Whs this intended as a reply to a different post?

It doesn't seem related to anything that I posted, unless it is intended as a strawman.

[MADem]

320. No, it was intended as a reply to your post, averring a "cultural" imperative to the matter under

discussion.

Culture is a factor in ethnicity, but not of race. You can live your whole life on a Native American reservation, but unless you've got the ancestry, that doesn't make you Native American.

[stone space]

321. No number of cultural rules for determining race will suffice to prove...

...that race is not culturally determined.

Indeed, one could take the viewpoint that every cultural rule that you present as an example serves to bolster the case that race is culturally determined.

You have yet to give a single example of a biological or genetic rule for determining race. Your examples have been entirely cultural.

Neither biology nor genetics explains why ones race can change instantly upon crossing imaginary lines drawn on a map.

Those lines are neither genetic not biological.

[MADem]

326. If you think that, you're not reading very carefully. nt

[mimi85]

284. Are you serious?

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried real hard.

[Violet_Crumble]

115. What I read in that thread was revolting bigotry...

Why should anyone have to apologise to anyone who posts 'Agreed!' to a post that says 'The muslims brought it upon themselves by harboring, aiding and abetting the extremist crazies amongst them instead of reporting those people to the authorities.'? What next? People should apologise for speaking out against anti-Semitic, homophobic, racist, or sexist comments at DU?

Me, I don't give a shit whether someone wants to call hatred of Muslims bigotry or racism. Whatever it is, it's fucking ugly and shouldn't be tolerated or excused in any way, imo...

[MADem]

124. Why should anyone drag old shit over here, instead of confronting it in the thread?

That's a one word response and we don't know what was "agreed"--a jury let that post you're screaming about stand, so clearly four DUers didn't feel that the writer was talking about "all" or "every" Muslim--the jury plainly saw a situational, specific context to the language. It is entirely possible that the conversationalists regarded the remarks like a "Snitches get stitches" kind of thing, where people know what is going on but they look the other way. But hey--NO ONE ASKED. No one said "What do you mean?" Instead, someone alerted, the post stood, and "Scootaloo" dug it up--it's old, it's not from yesterday--and tried to use it to stifle conversation. And "Scootaloo" didn't even participate in that old thread! That's the real kicker--going looking for a "gotcha" like that.

That kind of shit makes DU suck.

I think there are a lot of people on this board who don't know much about Arabs, or South/Southwest Asians, or Islam, or the North African littoral--and it shows. For my part, when Arabs tell me how they'd like to be regarded in terms of their cultural identification, I take them at their word (and it helps that I've lived and traveled in the Middle East). I don't try to tell them that they ARE a "race" when they refute it, and that I know better than they do.

[Violet_Crumble]

137. Uh, because the discussion in this thread is about Muslims?

So it's kinda relevant to the discussion in this thread.

I don't recall 'screaming' anymore than I 'scream' about anti-Semitic comments or the many, many Islamophobic comments of Rhinodawg, another participant in the linked thread. Oh, but as long as anti-semites or racists don't talk about 'all' or 'every' of the group they hate, then that's fine, I guess. And who gives a shit whether that post was alerted on or not? I sure don't, and juries have left many bigoted posts alone in the past, so if yr basing what's bigoted and what's not on how a jury votes, then that's not a great way to get a clue as to what bigotry is.

I've got a question for you, "MADem". Do you think that European Muslims are responsible for the anti-Muslim rallies held in Europe? Or that Jews are responsible for anti-Semitic skinhead rallies? Or that women are responsible for the existence of those MRA hate groups? Because saying yes to any of those means there's a bit of a problem...

Oh, yeah. I know jack shit about Arabs. Never met one, never had any interest in the Middle East and I just sit here at DU waiting for some American to tell me how Arabs identify as a people and a culture. If there was a sitcom that'd educate me about it, I'd go for that rather than even this most basic type of reading...

[MADem]

142. Well, this thread is about what a "racist" Bill Maher is because he had a spirited conversation

with his friend, a guy from India, about a variety of issues, to include Islam and radical elements contained therein.

The subthread with our friend Scootaloo has to do with an odd insistence that people can be whatever race they want--so, I guess Kevin Bacon no longer has to long to be black--he can just DECLARE himself to be so, in Scootaloo World!

I think people are individuals, and I think in many neighborhoods, life can be tough and snitches DO get stitches, which is why some people ARE afraid to speak up. I also think a false sense of loyalty can sometimes cause people to look the other way when their relatives are doing bad things. That happens all over the world, in America, too, not just in Europe, as my links illustrate. "Muslims" are not exempt from the pressures that other groups that live on the edges of poverty, or who feel marginalized by the dominant society, endure. They're not monolithic, either--they don't act as a group (except during prayer in a masjid, of course) and they don't all have the same attitudes and viewpoints.

That said, any time there is violence of a terroristic nature, it is natural for people to go back and try to find out if other people knew about it and didn't report it. This isn't a "Muslim" thing...it's a "terrorist" thing. Lately, in Europe, the busiest terrorists like to color their actions with a Radical Islamist tinge. But they didn't invent this game. It's a bit of a shift from the Red Army Faction/Baader-Meinhof gang terrorism of the seventies, or the Direct Actions of the IRA, but big picture, it's same shit, different gripes. People forget.

I think your gratuitous question asking me if I blame people who are victims of discrimination for rallies by bigots is mightily offensive and just doesn't deserve a response. Some questions are stupid, and that was a beaut. The LUMPING!! Muslims and Jews and Women! Why didn't you just throw in Ferguson and Trayvon, to round out the insult?

[Violet_Crumble]

146. Like I said before, I don't give a shit if it's racism or bigotry...

It's all ugly shit. And Bill Maher's a fucking bigoted piece of crap. End of story.

As for the gratuitous question. My, uh, apologies for offending you inadvertently, but it's just that it appeared you were trying to dismiss what was said when it came to a post that blamed European Muslims for extremist RW anti-Muslim rallies.

Also, not sure why yr getting bent out of shape because I dared to mention other groups that experience bigotry. The fact is they do and Muslims are one of the groups that do suffer from bigotry both in the US and Europe.

[MADem]

152. I tend to think that people on message boards talk in shorthand at times.

I prefer to ask what people mean rather than assume they mean the worst.

I thought it was a cheap shot to drag a one word comment from a post way back in DECEMBER, that could have been taken more than one way, and assume the worst about the poster. It's not like the dragger even had a conversation with the draggee in the December thread. I mean, that had to be a Google for a Gotcha. It looked like the comment was being used to stifle conversation--I find that unsavory.

I don't think Maher is bigoted, unless one includes religious bigotry (I think atheists might object to that characterization, though--one person's "bigotry" being another person's "Articles of (un)Faith&quot --and he's an equal opportunity bigot, in that case. I've seen him rake them all over the coals, he's especially hard on the Catholics when they hit the news for Name Your Poison, the Magdalene Laundries, the abuse of children, consorting with the Nazis, etc. If the religion is in the news, he'll heap scorn on them. He doesn't care for religions--he made a movie about that. He doesn't suffer fools, he's not afraid to be "politically incorrect" and he's also not afraid to be controversial. I don't agree with him on some issues (I think he's behind the curve on women's issues to some extent, for example), I agree with him on others (he thinks the Teapartiers are lunatics and the war on drugs is a failure, e.g.), but he's never boring---I think he gathers together an interesting mix of guests and puts on a good show. There are worse ways to spend an hour.

[Violet_Crumble]

156. Sometimes when it's obvious bigotry, I don't bother asking what they mean...

Then again, I got really bored sometimes and I'd prod Rhinodawg and respond to his latest anti-Muslim one-liner by asking what he meant, but I and most of DU (and admin seeing they showed him the door) already knew what he meant. I'd say what's at play with the linked comment is that I'm fully aware of the rather stinky posting history of the person who made the original comment (not Quantess) and there's no other way to take what they said than outright, nasty bigotry, and that's what I responded to. I'm absolutely confident that if you'd seen what I've seen, you'd feel the same way...

I'm an atheist and I don't make any difference between religious bigotry and any others. It's all from the same ugly place, imo. It's not bigotry to criticise religion, but it crosses into bigotry when adherents of a religion are blamed for the actions of extremist types in their religion. I also suspect that in the US religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism aren't in the news compared to ones that the media have a fixation on, like Islam and Christianity. And the difference between those latter two in the US is one is the predominant religion in the US and the religion of those in positions of power. Muslims on the other hand are under attack from mainly (if I ignore this Bill Maher guy) RW media types. So even though I'm an atheist, I feel for American Muslims, especially after seeing things like those Muslim schoolkids being abused by protesters when they were singing the American national anthem.

I've seen a bit of Bill Maher. That's about all I'll be ever seeing as he totally unimpressed me and came across as a complete unfunny wanker. I like Jon Stewart and especially John Oliver for my American comedy/politics mix, even though the latter isn't American. But Bill Maher just leaves me cold...

[mimi85]

285. How do you know Fareed and Bill are "friend?" Just curious.

[MADem]

289. Because you don't hire people you hate, and you don't work w/them on projects, certainly.

Not only is Fareed a regular on Real Time, he is an adviser on the HBO series VICE, which is produced by none other than Bill Maher.

Civilized and mature people can enjoy a difference of opinion and not line up on either side of the barn brandishing pitchforks. I do wish we could do better on that score here!

[MADem]

43. Scootaloo is in error. He confuses culture and ethnicity with race.

Hispanic isn't a race, either. Pope Francis, David Ortiz and Alberto Fujimori are all "Hispanic"--but that's because they've been raised in a particular cultural milieu, not because they're the same color or share any particulars of appearance.

[Scootaloo]

53. No, I'm telling you that you don't get to tell other people what they are and are not

Lots of Arabs do identify as a race, particularly in regions of the world where they are a minority grouping. You seem to feel entitled to tell them that they are wrong.

I don't care whether Arabs identify themselves as a race or not, I leave that entirely up to each of them individually, as I do with everyone else. I just figured you might want to know that you don't have the authority to 'correct" those that do.

[MADem]

56. Yes--Arabs do identify as races--the races they come from.

Osama Bin Laden likely checked the "white/caucasian" block.

Arab is NOT a race. Keep doubling down, though! You're making it really clear to all precisely what you know!

Let me give you an example, that may, or may not, help you:


This is a photo of Sheikh Adel Al-Kalbani, a former senior imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca and a rather polarizing figure for his intolerant views towards shi'a Muslims.
RACE: Black
Ethnicity: Arab
Nationality: Saudi Arabian

It's not a question of "authority," either--it's a question of picking up a book every now and again. You're off the mark.

[Scootaloo]

58. And again, it's up to them, and not up to you.

This really is a struggle for you, isn't it, MADem? You can't wrap your head around the idea of not begin able to dictate the identity of others.

[MADem]

62. What's a struggle is encountering someone with such antiquated views on race and ethnicity in the

21st Century.

Are you of rather advanced age, or something? I didn't take you for an elderly person previously-- because most people who hold the attitudes you are spouting about this subject matter are at least in their eighties.

Here's another sample to help you along:


This is the late Alberto Fujimori.

Race: Asian
Ethnicity: Hispanic
Nationality: Peruvian

[Scootaloo]

71. No, yours is the antiquated view

You hold that there are only X amount of "actual" races. There are no others beyond that number, and everyone on earth can be divided between these categories.

Further, you believe that YOU are the person with the authority to do the dividing. The people you are trying to define have no say in the matter. How they identify is, to you, irrelevant, because there are only X amount of races, and you are the final and authoritative arbiter of how they are defined and who belongs to what.

Neither of these is true. Race is an extremely fluid concept and the only arbiting factor in it is how a given individual identifies racially. They are under no obligation to accept your definitions of them. if they agree with you, that is up to them. if htye disagree with you, that is also up to them. in no case is it up to you.

Your position is one of extreme entitlement and narrow view.

[MADem]

80. No, those races can most certainly be mixed, and the way they are defined now is

by broad regional swathes.

Race isn't fluid. You can add more in, but you can't take any away. You are a product of your heritage, and your DNA doesn't lie. If a Norwegian caucasian moves to Kenya, she doesn't suddenly become "Black."

This has nothing to do with "entitlement" or "narrow view." It has nothing to do with social constructs or tribal associations, either.

This is about ARAB is NOT a RACE. Nothing more. Stop embarrassing yourself by insisting otherwise. Since you won't listen to me, maybe you'll take a few minutes to read what these folks have to say:

http://www.adc.org/education/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/

Who is an Arab?

"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; many are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.

What is the Arab World?

The Arab World consists of 22 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Iran and Turkey are not Arab countries and their primary languages are Farsi and Turkish respectively. Arab countries have a rich diversity of ethnic, linguistic, and religious communities. These include Kurds, Armenians, Berbers and others. There are over 300 million Arabs.

What is the Muslim World?

There are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. The Organization of Islamic Countries has 55 member states. The ten countries with the largest Muslim population are: Indonesia (170.3 million), Pakistan (136 million), Bangladesh (106 million), India (103 million), Turkey (62.4 million), Iran (60.7 million), Egypt (53.7 million), Nigeria (47.7 million) and China (37.1 million). Of these countries only Egypt is an Arab country. Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs.

[Scootaloo]

97. No, this is about your belief you get to dictate others' identity.

You have it in your head that I am asserting "Arab is a race." It's not up to me. Nor is it up to you, not any organization you may wish to name. it's up to a given individual how they choose to identify themselves.

but then you also have it in your head that I'm asserting "Muslim" is a race, and that I refer to people as "orientals" as well. You also think that someone who agrees that Muslims deserve bigotry does not think Muslims deserve bigotry. So I think it's safe to say you've lost all semblance of a plot, brother, and it's bedtime in Massachusetts.

[MADem]

100. Like you dictate to Arabs--even after they tell you "Arab is not a race" -- that Arab is a race?

Please, give it up. Have some respect for the culture, who have tried to educate you with their article explaining very clearly that "Arab is not a race."

Yet you persist in disrespecting them. Tsk, tsk.

I didn't say you asserted that "Muslim is a race." I did say that you wrongly assert that "Arab is a race" when Arab is NOT A RACE.

Stop trying to change the subject. The subject is your false assertion about Arabs and race. You keep insisting that Arab is a race. Arabs--in an article by Arabs concerned with people who discriminate and stereotype them-- have TOLD YOU that Arab is NOT A RACE. Yet you continue to try to tell them and everyone else that you know better than they do.

Read the link. Learn a little something.

[Scootaloo]

106. No, i'm telling you that you don't get to dictate.

This seems to be a real, essential struggle for you.

I didn't say you asserted that "Muslim is a race."

However, you bold this line from the piece you link: "Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs." It's not bolded inthe source, so you're trying to make an emphasis of it. Why? it has no bearing on anything I'm saying here. Much as with your "orientals" stuff, you're pretty obviously setting up straw men you can knock down, so you can feel victorious in your retreat.

I did say that you wrongly assert that "Arab is a race" when Arab is NOT A RACE.

I've never asserted that it was. Or that it was not. I have asserted that if someone chooses to identify racially as "arab' then that is up to them. Not you.

Again, your struggle seems to be that you do not get to domineer and bully your way into forcing someone to accept the identity you want to impose on or strip away from them. The notion that it is not for you to decide really pisses you off.

Stop trying to change the subject.

I'm not. Racial identification is up to the individual concerned, and is not determined your arbitrary and undefined assumptions. I'm trying to find out exactly what those assumptions are, so maybe i can carry you - kicking and screaming, if need be - towards the finish line of this topic. You've stalled out in the middle.

You keep insisting that Arab is a race.

No, I insist you have no right at all to tell someone who identifies so that they are wrong.

Arabs--in an article by Arabs concerned with people who discriminate and stereotype them-- have TOLD YOU that Arab is NOT A RACE.

Good for them. It does not detract form the point that if someone so identifies, this organization has no more authoirity than you do to tell them "nuh uh!"

Yet you continue to try to tell them and everyone else that you know better than they do.

No, i'm saying that I trust individual people to identify themselves as they feel they wish to be identified, and i do not MADem to act as interpreter and judge for them.

[MADem]

111. I DO get to dictate, and I've even provided you a citation.

Arab is not a race.

Grand Canyon isn't a race, either.

You've been told--and not by me, by Arabs. Keep doubling down, though--let them know what you think of 'em!

[Scootaloo]

130. No, you don't. You get to dictate your own identity, and no one else's.

You've cited the stance of an organization. And I say good for them. The same as I say towards Arabs who dare defy the global authority of the ADC (an authority i'm pretty sure they don't claim, but that you seem eager to give) and identify themselves as a race anyway.

it's not up to me. it's not up to you. it's not up to the ADC. it's up to each individual person who chooses to identify that way or not.

You're starting to remind me of the (former) DU posters who insisted that Chelsea Manning is "he." or "it."

[MADem]

132. People DO get to choose their gender identity. They don't get to choose their race.

So bringing Miss Manning into the equation is a non-starter.

She can change her gender identity, but she can't manipulate her DNA to change her racial make-up.

"Arab is not a race."

[Scootaloo]

135. You're making the same argument as those transphobes did, though

You're just using different features as your anchor point.

As I brought up and you have evaded - six times - you need a consistent definition of 'race' to make this sort of determination. You have refused to give it. So you frankly have zero basis whatsoever for your assertion.

But don't worry, that's okay - I have no expectations of receiving such definitions, because I know there are none. "Race' is a purely social construct, and the definitions vary from society to society. You are using one that is convenient for you, but is - like all other possible definitions - wholly subjective.

Such determinations are, as I've been saying, best left up to the individual. Another point you are striving so hard ot ignore rahter than confront.

[MADem]

145. No, I am not. Your thesis is falling apart before your eyes.

Arab is not a race. I've provided you a link, written by Arabs, telling you this, and you ignore it. You insist that people can change their race like they change their socks, and all they need to do is click their heels together like Dorothy and say "I am a (fill in race)" three times and their wish will be granted.

Race is only a "social construct" to "social scientists." It's a different thing altogether to the scientists who have to take actual science classes to get their degrees, and the DNA doesn't lie.

You still haven't explained how Harvard, Yale and the rest of the Ivies will handle all those people applying for diversity scholarships based on their "declarations" of their races, have you? They'll be checking the "Scootaloo says it's OK" box on their Common College application!!

[Scootaloo]

155. I didn't ignore it, MADem

I've addressed it several times, in fact. The trouble you have is that you can't wrap your head around the fact that you cannot dictate to people how they get to identify themselves.

I've not said anything about anyone "changing their race." That's all been yours. And to bolster your claim, you cite a 1986 comedy starring C. Thomas Howell (14% at Rotten Tomatoes. Which is actually worse than White Chicks.)

[MADem]

178. I am not doing the dictating, but you certainly are.

And your thesis is not supported.

You still haven't explained how a student applying to a college can succeed in "deciding" that they want to be a minority race for the purposes of obtaining a diversity goal placement or scholarship. What's to stop little Justin Beibers from asking the UNCF for a scholarship?

I didn't say the film was any good--but there you go again, trying to divert, as if the quality of the film (which was--horror of horrors--a box office success despite the critics) even mattered. The point is that the film was MADE--the idea was there.

It's not the first time Hollywood has played with race, either--films involving switching up (body swapping, too) were popular around that time.

Sample:


That's Whoopi Goldberg under that makeup. She knew she wasn't a white guy in the film, though--she was playing some people who wouldn't respect a black woman so she gave them what they wanted, a white man.

You HAVE said something about people choosing their race, in actual fact. Pull the thread of this conversation back to where you were making vile, unsupported accusations with regard to my views about Chelsea Manning (you suggested I was in the "he" or "it" brigade, when nothing could be further from the truth, and you tried to compare that intransigence -that you invented in YOUR head--to my views on the topic of race. Too bad for you that your thesis failed there, as well--gender identity, as I said, is malleable, but race is not.). You insisted that there was no difference between Chelsea Manning's transgender journey and someone picking their race, in essence.
In case you forgot what you said about race, here it is for you to chew on:

it's not up to me. it's not up to you. it's not up to the ADC. it's up to each individual person who chooses to identify that way or not.

Race is not a choice. If it were, like I said, Trayvon would have "chosen" to become white in order to get away from his stalker-murderer. Your racial makeup is embedded in your DNA. You can't swap it out. Cultural identification, ethnic associations, and issues of history and heritage aside, you are, racially, what your DNA says you are. If anyone is dictating race, it's that pesky DNA.

And at the end of the day, still, Arab is NOT a race.

[merrily]

160. I don't know th an american organization founded by an American politician gets to determine what an

Arab is and is not not. Imagine if imagine if Syrian politicians, born and raised in Syria (or Libya or Yemen, etc.) got to have the definitive word on what a French person or an American is.

For one thing, Arabs were widely considered to be part of the Semitic race, until that issue became highly politicized.

To be clear, I am not saying the definition is wrong or not accepted by Arabs who are not Arab Americans and well within the US political system. I don't know one way or another (though I think that, at least on its face, citing members of a tiny, modern day minority having red hair and blue eyes as evidence that Arabs are not a race seems ludicrous).

I am saying only that, without knowing more, there seems to be no reason to accept the word of adc.org as definitive on the subject of what an Arab is or is not.

[MADem]

172. "Semitic" refers to languages and cultures--not race.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semitic

There is a reason why Hebrew and Arabic look and sound similar in many respects--they're even read the same way, right to left.

Also, if there were no one at the table, you'd have a hard time distinguishing the food of Israel from the food of Yemen or Jordan.

[merrily]

177. Plenty of references to "Semitic race" existed anyway, and were intended to encompass

both Jews and Arabs. Then, as I said, the matter became highly politicized.

There is a reason why Hebrew and Arabic look and sound similar in many respects--they're even read the same way, right to left.

Also, if there were no one at the table, you'd have a hard time distinguishing the food of Israel from the food of Yemen or Jordan.

Yes, I know all that. They were from the same part of the ancient world and intermingled then freely. It's not entirely unlike people from adjacent villages China 4000 years ago or more.

As for Israel, per se (as opposed to Jewish people in general), that was established within that region only in the 1940s, as you know. Obviously what is now considered Israeli cuisine is that of the geographical region and its historic peoples and the language is that of the original Jewish peoples of the region, updated, much like Arabic has been updated (at least in spoken form).

But, I am not discerning what relevance similarities in cuisines and language have to whether the adc gets to be the be all and end all of defining what an Arab is, or even what an Arab American is?

BTW, my ability to distinguish among cuisines might surprise you, but that is definitely not relevant to this thread in any way.

[MADem]

188. That was a misuse of the term; I believe it originated in (not Jew-friendly) Germany.

If you dislike the ADC cite--and it seems you do--here's another:

.... Over 200 million Arabs worldwide.
ƒ To be an Arab, is not to come from a particular race or
lineage.
ƒ To be an Arab, like an American, is a cultural trait
rather than racial.
ƒ The Arab world includes Muslims, Christians and Jews.
ƒ Any person who adopts the Arabic language is typically
called an Arab....

https://fas.org/irp/agency/army/arabculture.pdf

You do realize--or maybe you don't--that Jews lived in the land we now call Israel before 1940---they all didn't just go there a three quarters of a century ago, though the influx certainly stepped up after that point in time. And they were cooking for the thousands of years they lived there, too.

The reason you couldn't "distinguish between cuisines" is because in many cases, they're the SAME. It's not to do with your abilities in any way. The cultural touchstones of Arab and Israeli cuisine are in many instances IDENTICAL. That was the point I was making, that apparently sailed right over your head. Take away the people, and the food--the cultural "semitic" food--is the same.

[merrily]

291. Again, the term became politicized at some point.

Whether the original use of it was correct or whether the post-politicized definitions are correct is not exactly written in stone.


And, again, after all I and others pointed out to you, you are not asking any Arab to define "Arab."

you do realize--or maybe you don't--that Jews lived in the land we now call Israel before 1940-

Um. I know. Hence the reference in my prior post attributing similarities in reading right to left and in cuisines to living side by side thousands of years ago, much as two nearby villages in China thousands of years ago would share similaries in cuisine and the direction in which they read.

The reason you couldn't "distinguish between cuisines

You asserted that I couldn't distinguish between cuisines.. I replied that you might be surprised about that, suggesting that your assumption about my palate might be wrong.

because in many cases, they're the SAME.

I disagree. There are SOME common dishes and some dishes that originated in Egypt or in Morocco or in Syria etc. that are unique to that country. You might find them in other Middle Eastern countries now, just as you might find all Middle Eastern dishes in the US now. Travel, immigration trade, cookbooks, etc. spreads dishes from one country to another.

However, not not every Arab dish is native to every Arab nation. Some originated in Morocco, some in Egypt, some in Oman, some in Yemen, etc. and to this day are more prevalent in the land of their origin. and, even today, preparations vary. A dish made in Yemen may or may not taste exactly like that same dish made in Syria or Lebanon. And I don't mean just the variations that you find when two different cooks next door to each other prepare the same dish.

But, here we are still talking cuisine, yet you did not respond to my question about what that has to do with whether an Arab is a member of any race or not.

[LiberalAndProud]

110. Arabs are defined by culture, not by race.

Culture and ethnicity /= race. You seem to be committed to ideas that are demonstrably false.

[Scootaloo]

129. The idea that MADem does not get to determine someone's identity for them is not false

[yeoman6987]

141. So you were ok with Governor Bush putting Hispanic down as his choice?

If it is up to the individual after all.

[Scootaloo]

144. It doesn't bother me.

As far as I can tell, his doing so doesn't hurt anyone.

[yeoman6987]

147. Ok. Thanks for the answer.

I kinda don't care either because he may identify with the Hispanic culture because of his family, living in Miami and speaking fluent Spanish at home. Still no vote from me though. Lol. Have a great weekend!

[CJCRANE]

293. In my experience he would identify himself as an "arab", not "black" or African".

It's easy from a western viewpoint to put similar people into one big group, but if you travel around Africa you'll see that people don't just call themselves "black", there are lots of different tribes and races.

[MADem]

314. That's fine--if he lived in New York, he could call himself a New Yorker, too.

"Arab" is a cultural affiliation, not a racial category, rather like "Hispanic." Hispanic isn't a race, either. It is an identifier, and no one--least of all Arabs--is claiming otherwise.

[CJCRANE]

315. So which races are legitimate in your opinion?

And if someone says something negative about "hispanics" does that mean they are not racist?

Also, is "semitic" a race?

[MADem]

316. The term "racist" can also mean "ethnically bigoted." It's a shorthand term.

For example, white people are generally privileged--you've read about this here on DU. However, white people who are also Arabs or Hispanics can endure discrimination because of their ethnic affiliations.

All races are "legitimate." None is more "legitimate" than others--we're all way more alike than we are different.

[samsingh]

359. exactly right

[WinkyDink]

117. If they identified themselves as kumquats, you'd be okay with that, too?

[Scootaloo]

158. Do you know anyone who identifies as a kumquat?

How much time do you spend trying to convince this person otherwise?

[WinkyDink]

266. It's called "the principle of the thing."

[delrem]

262. You could perhaps publish an academic paper putting this issue to rest.

Your certainty that you have the one and only correct opinion of exactly who is exactly what "race" (based on some idea of "DNA", of all things!) is a wonder to behold. Proponents of eugenics will be all ears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29

[MADem]

280. I certainly could, but I won't.

Your inference is both ugly and noted, though. I imagine you think yourself quite clever at hurling such an oblique insult.

"Some idea of DNA" -- it's not witchcraft, you know.

[delrem]

283. I had no intention of insinuating that you're racist, if that's what you mean.

Or a eugenicist.
I don't think you are anything like that.

I do think you're engaging in apologetics, quibbling about a fine point of semantics the way apologists do.

[LostOne4Ever]

38. To quote a former Ambassador from Oman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs

[font size=3]The Arabs are defined by their culture, not by race; [/font]and their culture is defined by its essential twin constituents of Arabism and Islam. To most of the Arabs, Islam is their indigenous religion; to all of the Arabs, Islam is their indigenous civilization. The Arab identity, as such, is a culturally defined identity, which means being Arab is being someone whose mother culture, or dominant culture, is Arabism. Beyond that, he or she might be of any ancestry, of any religion or philosophical persuasion, and a citizen of any country in the world. Being Arab does not contradict with being non-Muslim or non-Semitic or not being a citizen of an Arab state.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Also:[/font]

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/arab

Race: While the term "Arab" does not refer to a particular race, the majority of Arabs are categorized as Semites, though Arabs include Caucasians, Africans, and Middle Easterners, with ancestral origins in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. The intermarriage of Arab seamen and their agents as far back as the first century [6] has left few 'pure' Arabs, racially. "Dark skinned" Arabs are Sudanese, Ethiopian and Somalian Arabs, and Arabs from Southern Egypt who are considered Africans. "Caucasian" Arabs are Arabs native to Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Tunisia, Algeria, and Libya among others, though they are considered by many as Middle-Easterners, or Semites.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]and[/font]

http://www.adc.org/education/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/

Who is an Arab?

"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. [font size=3]Arabs are not a race[/font]. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; many are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.

[MADem]

42. I am not "white," but thanks for playing.

Arab is NOT a race, nor is Hispanic, or Persian. It's an ethnicity. Catholic, Jew, Muslim...those aren't "races" either. They're religions.

But it's funny how everyone associates Arabs with "Muslim" even though plenty of Arabs are Christians, and some are Jews. And, as I said, most Muslims are NOT Arabs.

The whole basis of this thread is all about how much of a "racist" Bill Maher is--or have you dropped the line, there?

Not sure why you felt a need to get all up in it with me, in a personal way--care to explain that, or should I just let it pass by?

[Scootaloo]

47. Do you identify as Arab, then?

'Cause otherwise, it doesn't really matter what you are, you don't actually have any space to point and go "No! You cannot call yourself a race! I forbid it!" And even if you were, all you would accomplish is arguing the point with another Arab who holds otherwise.

Also, it bears mention, that so far you're the only one making an "Arab = Muslim" argument... granted, only so you can knock it down and act liek you've made an achievement, but still. it's just you, dude.

[MADem]

52. I got some bad news for you, pal--Fareed Z isn't an "Arab," either.

You'd probably be shocked to realize he identifies as .... (drum roll) ASIAN.

South Asian, to be specific.

Psssst....he's from INDIA!!!! He was born in MUMBAI!!! And it gets better--he's .... MUSLIM!!!!!!

I am making a couple of arguments, here.

1. Bill Maher is not a racist. He doesn't like religions.

2. You are using ad hominem attacks in a brutish, clumsy way, revealing a lack of command of the topic.

3. You owe Quantess an apology for trying to associate her with neo-Nazis.

You can run around calling Arabs and Hispanics and who-so-ever you'd like "races," but they aren't. Your insistence that they are, after more than one person has tried to help you through your misconceptions, says a shitload about you, though.

Keep waving that flag--that way we can be sure that we see you from a distance.

[Scootaloo]

55. I didn't see anyone saying he was, MADem

I'm telling you that you don't get to tell Arabs that they are not a race, if they feel that they are.

Do you honestly struggle so hard with the reality that you are not entitled to define other people for them?

As for your numbered list...

1. I did not call him a racist. I hold that he is a bigot and an asshole. i also acknowledge that there is definite potential for racist underpinnings to islamophobia, owing to the fact the majority of Muslims in the world are not white, while the majority of islamophobic bigots are.

2. I'm not using ad hominem at all. Ad hominems attack an irrelevant quality of the speaker in an attempt to annul the argument. Your belief you can dictate other people's racial grouping to them is very relevant. Quantess' overt support for islamophobia is also very relevant.

3. No. if she doesn't like the associations she has chosen for herself, she should dissociate from them. The company she keeps and the rhetoric she spews are not up to me, after all.

[MADem]

60. Yes, I do get to tell people that. Because they are not a race, any more than Hispanics or

Persians or Indians are.

Sorry if you don't like it, but you're not the decider. This isn't a question of "belief." Race is NOT like religion, a matter of culture and choice--if it were, people could change their race at a drop of the hat....say, who wants to be Asian this week? Anyone?

You took words out of context to try to smear a poster and to get her to shut up. What you did was a cheap shot and it's easy for anyone to see what you did. If you've got issues with her views on Islam, confront her in the context where she makes the statements, don't drag innocuous comments into separate discussions to use as a cudgel, hoping no one will click on the link.

[Scootaloo]

65. No, you don't. But thanks for making it so frank.

I'm not claiming to be anyone's 'decider' - by your own admission, that's you. Entirely you. I'm the one correcting your misconception here, I'm afraid. And yes, i'm afraid that race is a matter of self-identification.

You said "Black is a race" in another post. Okay. What secures that position, as far as you are concerned? "Blacks" are surely as diverse as other groups you have denied the right to refer to themselves as a race - Arabs, Indians, and Persians, for three. What's the cutoff-point? At what point do you, the "not-white" guy from Massachusetts, feel you have to put on the breaks and go "no, no, sorry, you don't get to"?

No, you don't get to tell other people what they are and are not. If that sheikh whose image you posted identifies racially as Arab, his race is Arab. if he identifies racially as black, well, he's black. if he identifies racially as Samoyed, then as far as it concerns me, he's Samoyed. I don't have the right to tell him he's not, and neither do you - i leave that sort of thing to his parents and the samoyed themselves, if they want to.

[MADem]

69. Let's all switch races, then--if it's a matter of "personal decision."

You don't think that poor guy getting stopped by that murdering cop would have liked to have switched up HIS race before that bum plugged him with a half dozen bullets or more? "Abra Cadabra!! DNA Shazaaam!!!! Make me white as Liberace!!!!"

It doesn't work that way. Your DNA determines your race, not your opinion or attitude. How do you think Skip Gates found out how much "white guy" he had in him?

It's not a choice. Keep confusing ethnicity with race, though, if you insist. You're wrong, but have at it.

[LostOne4Ever]

74. DNA has nothing to do with determining Race

It is a social concept based upon perceived physical features.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29

Race anthropologists were pressured to acknowledge findings coming from studies of culture and population genetics, and to revise their conclusions about the sources of phenotypic variation.[56] A significant number of modern anthropologists and biologists in the West came to view race as an invalid genetic or biological designation.[57]

You are right in that people don't get to choose their race, but saying it is based upon DNA implies that it has a basis in the biological sciences which is not true either.

At one time, people of Irish ancestry were considered their own race and classified as a "colored" race. This has changed with time. Similarly, the "one drop rule" was used in the past to determine if a person was "white" or not.

[MADem]

77. The old view of "race" was a social construct, but in looking at DNA, it's not.

In that narrow context, it's biological. It's neither good nor bad, it's just a representation of a person's ancestry. DNA isn't an opinion, either--it's a fixed marker. You can't change it.

Many people in the world are of "mixed race"--and DNA can tell you exactly how "mixed" you are and which ancestors, from where, contributed markers to your DNA stew.

Very few people regard those outdated "Irish race" or "Arab race" or "Japanese race" (funny that, as so many of their ancestors came from China or Korea) designations as valid anymore. The designators (from DNA) are much broader now and focus on ancient regional swathes and they are rid of the whole "ranking" concepts that so-called scientists derived a few hundred years ago. The people who hark back to those kinds of definitions are behaving in a tribal fashion, and often want to suggest that their clan is superior to other clusters of people sharing a similar appearance, heritage, ethnicity and culture. Using "race" to say "My tribe is better than your tribe" is pretty much a fail, these days.

Ethnicity, though, is much more malleable, and can change from generation to generation, simply by the act of a family picking up and moving to a new society/culture.

[Scootaloo]

79. No, the individual determines their race

That the cop saw "black" and believed that justification to murder a young man does not change this fact (and why are you using a murderous cop as a pillar for your argument, anyway?)

You touch on another reality of race as a social construct. A real quick example - President Barack Obama. In the United States, he's "black". His mother was a white woman, of course, but that's no matter, to America, he's every bit as black as his father, an immigrant form Kenya. These two men also happen to be 100% as black as Vin Diesel and Lisa Bonet, according to the American perception of race.

of course in Brazil, Vin Diesel, Ann Dunham, and Lisa Bonet are brancos, Barack Obama Sr. would have been preto, and Barack Obama jr would be pardo.

If this is sounding silly, just wait, because in Kenya, not only would everyone except father and sons Obama be regarded as white, but that neither of those men would be regarded as 'black" - they would be regarded as Luo.

Travel south a bit, to South Africa, and Ann Dunham is White, Vin Diesel, Lisa Bonet, and Barack Obama jr. are "Colored" and Barack Obama Sr. is "black."

Go to Japan, and you've got five people who are just "not Japanese."

Now, back to the cop you're using as a shim for your wobbly argument. Do you think he would gun down someone who looked like Lisa Bonet? Probably not, right? Well... why not?

She's as much a black person as the guy officer Fuckwit filled full of hot lead, isn't she? Are you going to tell her she's not? Is she simply "less of a black person" according to you, or is she not even a black person at all? it's how she identifies, at least last I knew, are you going to tell her she's wrong? What about other black people with fair skin, are they going to have to write you for your permission to call themselves black? What if instead they want to call themselves white, will they need your permission for that, too?

Awkward! Not "black enough" to get shot by the pillar of MADem's argument, but also not "white enough" that he'd let them call themselves white!

Which brings us back to what I've been telling you.

It's not up to you to determine what someone is or is not for them.

[MADem]

82. The American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee has a problem with your assertion.

You keep doubling down, I keep correcting you. You refuse to listen.

Like I said, if you won't listen to me, perhaps you'll stop humiliating yourself, and listen to them (FWIW, they agree with me -- "ARAB is NOT a RACE.&quot :

http://www.adc.org/education/facts-about-arabs-and-the-arab-world/
Who is an Arab?

"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; many are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.

What is the Arab World?

The Arab World consists of 22 countries in the Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, the Comoros Islands, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Iran and Turkey are not Arab countries and their primary languages are Farsi and Turkish respectively. Arab countries have a rich diversity of ethnic, linguistic, and religious communities. These include Kurds, Armenians, Berbers and others. There are over 300 million Arabs.

What is the Muslim World?

There are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. The Organization of Islamic Countries has 55 member states. The ten countries with the largest Muslim population are: Indonesia (170.3 million), Pakistan (136 million), Bangladesh (106 million), India (103 million), Turkey (62.4 million), Iran (60.7 million), Egypt (53.7 million), Nigeria (47.7 million) and China (37.1 million). Of these countries only Egypt is an Arab country. Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs.

[Scootaloo]

88. My assertion is that race is determined by personal identification

That is, if you ask someone "hey, what's your race," and he says "I'm an Arab," that's up to him to decide.

Not me.
Not you.
And no, not the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, either.

I'm still curious to hear about what you think these indelible, immutable, easily-determined "true" racial categories are. Can you lay it out? What are they? How do you determine - flawlessly at that - what human belongs to what group? And what sort of punishment should be inflicted upon those who defy your categorization?

[MADem]

89. "Arab is NOT a race." Good grief, even when Arabs concerned with the way people discriminate

against them and stereotype them tell you, plainly, IN WRITING, that "Arab is not a race," you still don't take the point.

Incredible.

[Scootaloo]

92. It is to those who identify themselves so, MADem

This is not a terrible struggle, MADem. It's a matter of personal identity.

This is the third time you have evaded my efforts to find out how, exactly, you categorize human races, and determine who fits where.

[MADem]

93. No, it isn't. Try reading that link again. nt

[Scootaloo]

94. I read it. The organization's members are free to identify as they choose.

If they do not regard themselves as part of an "Arab Race" well, that's up to them. If someone else does regard themselves so, that is up to them.

it's not up to me. It's not up to you. Either way someone wants to go, it's up to that person.

You really can't stand the idea that you lack authority to determine someone's identity for them, can you?

Still waiting to hear back on how you determine and categorize people into races. i want to see your system, MADem.

And how do you identify, by the way?

[MADem]

96. Because "Scootaloo" is going to dictate to Arabs all about their culture and heritage.

Ummmm....no. That's not how it works.

Arab is not a race.

That's the topic, and you're not going to play any bullshit "distract and divide" games to try to navigate away from that false assertion you made.

Sure looks like you are trying like hell to tell an entire culture what their "race" is, because .... Scootaloo sez! That's not happening. Read the link.

[Scootaloo]

99. Not at all. i'm just telling you that you lack such entitlement yourself

And frankly so does any organization you choose to come up with. Again, identification is up to the individual. Not up to me. Not up to the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. And very assuredly, not up to you.

I'm very sorry to have pulled the curtain back on your lack of entitlement over others, MADem. it seems like it's terribly frustrating for you.

[MADem]

103. Yeah, it IS up to the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. They've tried to tell you

to stop making stupid, hurtful claims like "Arab is a race." They've told you that Arab is NOT a race.

Yet you, Scootaloo, insist that you know better than those silly Arabs. They must not know their own mind when they instructed people interested in their culture that "ARAB IS NOT A RACE."

I love the way you've pulled the curtain back on YOU. This entire exchange is very elucidative as to your views about Arabs. You apparently want to deny them any ownership of their culture, and you want to dictate to them--despite their telling you, in plain simple language that you are wrong--that they have to be a "race" because YOU said so.

Tsk, tsk. I think the person who is a bit frustrated here is the one who can't come up with a good argument to counter the very plain guidance contained in the link I provided, and who, instead, keeps trying to change the subject from "Arab is NOT a race" to "anything else word salad."

[merrily]

168. An Arab American organization is not the same as an Arab organization.

Especially and Arab American organization founded by a US politician.

I am not sure they have a right to be the be all and end all of defining what constitutes an Arab American. As best I can tell, they have no authority to define Arabs who are not and never have been Arab Americans.

[DesertFlower]

72. fareed was born into a muslim family,

but years ago he said he didn't practice any religion.

[MADem]

78. You don't have to practice religion to be a Muslim.

If your father is Muslim, you are Muslim. If you don't practice the faith, you might be regarded by some scolds as a "bad Muslim" but you're still a Muslim. Fareed will be a Muslim for as long as he lives, even if he doesn't do any praying or pillars.

That's how it works!

[PassingFair]

183. Um...you lost me here. My mother is a Christian. I am not.

I'm not a "bad Christian".

I'm simply NOT a Christian.

[MADem]

201. The Christians, by and large, do not share the same viewpoint.

I can't speak for every Christian denomination, though--they don't all walk in lockstep.

In Muslim culture, if your father is Muslim, you are as well. Some people in Islam, in fact, believe that EVERYONE is born Muslim and the unlucky ones have parents of other faiths or none at all.

This Father-child "rule" is enforced to varying degrees depending upon how fundamentalist the POV is, but it is the very rule that the wingnuts leaned upon when they insisted that our POTUS was not the religion he stated he was but instead was a "secret Muslim" hell bent on putting a mosque in the gol-durned White House, I tell ya!!! In short, the wingnuts suspended their own beliefs and attitudes, and adopted those of Islamic culture in order to play "gotcha" with President Obama. Too clever by half, those Teafartiers!

It is not popular in Muslim culture to be an atheist. If you keep any ties in the culture, especially if you are famous, it is not a good thing to advertise, in the event some overzealous Imam decides to issue a fatwa which can make your life hell. I doubt you'll ever hear Fareed say he's an atheist, but it's not uncommon to "not practice" the religion--plenty of people are on the same page, and some will just attend worship services at major holidays, or when they are visiting devout relatives.

[CJCRANE]

292. You have the same thing in Catholicism and Judaism.

I know plenty of "lapsed" Catholics, the culture and religion stays with you even if you don't follow it anymore. The same applies in Judaism, which is also ethnically passed through the maternal line.

[DesertFlower]

250. in that case would obama be a muslim

even though his father was an atheist?

[MADem]

282. According to fundamentalists, yes--because his father would not be viewed as an atheist.

In a conservative sharia society, the ulema would regard the father as an apostate but the child would still be Muslim.

Do you remember the woman who was jailed with a death sentence for marrying a Christian man in Sudan? She declared herself to be a Christian but her FATHER, who left the family when she was a child, was Muslim and her brother, apparently also Muslim, "ratted her out." It didn't matter that she didn't have any relationship with the father and was raised by a religious Christian mother, the faith of the father is controlling. That woman, as I recall, was eventually released and emigrated with her husband, but it was dicey for a bit.

I don't have to reiterate that this is simply the viewpoint from a conservative Muslim perspective, I assume. The thing is, the GOP/wingnuts/Teahadists adopted this "Sharia logic" in order to goad and bait Obama in a rather childish and pointless way. It's a real dumbass thing to do, that kind of deliberate naivete, but that's the wingnuts for ya...

[stone space]

187. This reminds me of a story.

I am not "white," but thanks for playing.

My wife and I were over at a friends' apartment eating dinner. They are from Argentina, but live in Brazil, because he works at a university there.

His wife considers herself indigenous, and is so considered in Argentina.

So it's a bit of a shock to her when she turns white every time they cross the border from Argentina to Brazil.

"I am not white!", she screamed!



Well, she is when she's in Brazil, it seems.

Race is culturally determined, partially self identified, and partially an identification imposed by others.



Biologists and geneticist can get into the act, also, if they wish, I suppose (and they certainly have in the past in a rather negative way), but my impression of modern biology and genetics from the outside is that it tends to demolish the whole notion of race as a biological or genetic category, disavowing race and leaving it as more of a cultural, sociological, political, and economic matter.

[brooklynite]

191. Are Pakistanis Arab? How about Indonesians?

Sudanese perhaps?

[totodeinhere]

305. No, Arab is not a race. Most Arabs are Caucasians.

Arabs are a Semitic people, originally from the Arabian peninsula and neighboring territories, inhabiting much of the Middle East and North Africa. Most but not all Jews are also Semitic people. But Arabs are not a distinct race. And remember that there are plenty of Muslims of all races and not all Muslims are Arabs. And some Arabs are of other religions such as Christianity. And example would be Coptic Christians.

[philosslayer]

257. How can he be racist towards Islam when Islam is not a race?

The stupidity. It burns.

[Shoulders of Giants]

264. How can you be racist against a religion?

[totodeinhere]

304. But Islam is not a race. It's a religion. So I think that "bigot"

would be a better term to describe him. Muslims can be of any race including white.

[samsingh]

354. he is calling it like it is.

[still_one]

4. Anti-Islamic or prejudice against Muslims would be more correct than racist

Even bigot would apply

Not sure if racist is correct, but definitely agree with your sentiments

[One of the 99]

6. It's not just Muslims

See my post above.

[still_one]

21. obviously great minds think alike, thanks

[truebrit71]

7. Bullshit.

He didn't say anything racist tonight. Anti-religion? Hell yes, but nothing racist.

[One of the 99]

14. Nor did I state that he said anything specifically racist tonight.

My comment was based on a collection of comments over the past few years, including calling President Obama 'Chocolate Jesus' repeatedly in 2008.

[truebrit71]

230. You know he's a comedian, right?

....

[One of the 99]

247. And a political commentator.

[Scootaloo]

27. Maher's not anti-religion. He's anti-not-his-religions

Which is a common problem with the (I hate this term, but it works) "militant" atheists, such as Maher, Dawkins, and Hitchens. They've abandoned the spooky woo-woo aspects of the religions they grew up with, but the dogmatism and religious superiority complexes are still there.

[LiberalAndProud]

81. There is no dogma.

What you refer to as dogmatism is precisely the opposite of that. These men who you refer to as "militant" are anti-dogmatic because they feel certain that a literal interpretation of the holy texts does sanctify and even encourage vicious, cruel, hateful acts in the minds of some believers. While I disagree with Maher frequently on many things and his humor can be bitter and unfunny, I find your characterization of vocal atheists shallow and riddled with misunderstandings.

[Scootaloo]

87. As i said, I hate the term "militant atheists," but lack better terminology

Sorry, I'm not trying to "attack atheists" or anything - being atheist myself, it sounds counter-productive. I just don't really know what other terms to use to describe what I'm getting at.

And that is, this brand of atheist what still clings to the dogmatism one might find in their former religion. Especially that their religion, even if they don't "buy" it anymore, is still in every way superior to "lesser, barbarous" religions. That is, they may have ditched the deity, but they can't shake dogma of superiority.

Christopher Hitchens was especially bad about it, and Bill Maher gets pretty fucking nasty too.

After all, this is part of the cult programming every religion uses. The initiate is superior to everyone outside of the cult. Even if within the cult he is lower than dog turds. Especially then, so that the initiate can look at how he's treated, and still be convinced, "well, i have it better than the people outside of dear leader's influence! I'm so lucky!"

These guys were programmed with it just the same as any other cult escapee. I suppose I can't blame them too harshly - it's a form of trauma, and trauma is hard to shake (especially when it's a form of trauma that actually rewards you with those tingly endorphins!) But... if you're going to gather up an audience and talk about how religions are cults, and we should reject them...you should at least recognize these tics you still carry around and quash them when they poke up.

otherwise you end up like Christopher Hitchens, who sounded more and more like Ann Coulter on a tequiza bender every day.

[LiberalAndProud]

91. Is it all criticism of religion that you particularly dislike?

Or do you have a particular bone to pick? I know of two areas where I disagreed with Hitch vehemently. His support for the Iraq war and pro-life positions were particularly offensive to me. I don't know of others.

I have a suspicion you've spent very little time actually listening to these people, and paid more attention to what others have had to say about their positions. Your characterization as cultism is ridiculous to the extreme, and again very offensive.

[truebrit71]

232. Sounds to me like you know very little about Hitchens...

... and his work..."sounded more like Ann Coulter on a bender every day"...

That whooshing sound you hear is the point you completely missed as it flew over your head...

[delrem]

84. That's pretty much exactly what I think.

There's an unexamined cultural superiority complex going on.

I don't find any of it funny, or particularly enlightened.

[truebrit71]

227. This too is bullshit...

...."Militant" atheism is NOT a religion....

[Archae]

12. What it all boils down to...

Maher is simply a total asshole.

He even is listed in the encyclopedia of American loons, for his anti-vaxx stupidity.

[LuvNewcastle]

121. He IS an asshole. It's that simple.

I agree with a lot of things he says on his show, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a raging asshole. If I were him, I don't think I could live with myself.

[Logical]

13. Post one of his racist quotes please! Or self delete. Nt

[One of the 99]

15. How about calling the President 'Chocolate Jesus' on many occasions.

If Rush or someone on FAUX did that there would be no question that it was racist.

[Hoyt]

17. Then supporting him, even contributing a million bucks.

[HipChick]

19. and dating Black women

[One of the 99]

211. Yes no racist ever dated a black women.

That was scarasm just in case you didn't get it.

[leeroysphitz]

20. How is that even racist?

[One of the 99]

139. If Rush had said it

would you be giving him a pass like you're giving Maher?

[Hoyt]

192. Limbaugh would say it with different intent.

[One of the 99]

208. How do you know what the intent is?

Can you read minds?

[Hoyt]

223. In this case, Yes. I can also tell you are just being obtuse.

[One of the 99]

224. Can you also predict lottery numbers?

[Hoyt]

225. Your winner for today is 6, 14, 27, 28, 32, 45, 49. Good luck.

[One of the 99]

246. Thanks

[Bluenorthwest]

196. I love Chris Rock, who like Maher is a comic. Chris, who is not a bigot, does in fact use the word

'fag**t' with abandon in his act. I'm gay so I get to do with that as I please, but you, are you giving him a pass for using brutal slurs toward minorities or are you doing what I'm doing and employing reason and context and intention and the overall objectives and agenda of the artist when encountering the materials?

Name me any comic working today that you like. I will bring you a joke from that comic that would have to be censored for DU. Sarah Silverman? Out of context she's vulgar, bigoted and sexist. But she's none of those things. Maybe vulgar, I'll grant you that. Louis CK? Wanna start with him?

See, if Rush said what Chris Rock says, he'd be a terrible person. It's context, intention, set and setting. Chris, Bill, Sarah, Louis, these are comedians speaking comic material in performance. Rush is a political commentator.
If Barack Obama said what Chris Rock says, he'd be a terrible President. He is not a comedian. His context, set and setting is not a concert hall primed for laughs.

So which of today's comics do you like? Larry the Cable Guy?

[One of the 99]

207. Not trying to censor anyone

But Maher is not just a comic like Rock, he is also a political commentator like Rush.

[Bluenorthwest]

238. Excuse me, I did not sugest you were trying to censor anyone, that's uncalled for bullshit.

Maher is a political comedian, not a commentator. Sorry. You are simply grasping at straws. Not only did you evade addressing anything I asked you or said to you, your entire response is 'he's a commentator like Rush' without even a shred of reasoning to support such an absurd statement.
I'd like you to address what I actually said to you, and discuss it. Have some respect, this is a conversation you started, and steam rolling over that which others bring to the table is not even polite.

Which comics working today do you like? I keep asking Maher's critics that question and none of them can muster an response. The lack of ability to discuss the issue they drag to the table with such strong verbiage suggests that they are more rhetoric than reality.

If you can't contextualize your point with the way other comics speak of other groups, you have no point at all.

[One of the 99]

248. Maher has gone on sunday shows as a commentator

Rush calls himself a comedian too.

[MADem]

67. Here's the vile racist with his most recent girlfriend on holiday in Hawaii...

Her ancestors arrived in former British Guiana from the same country where Fareed Zakaria was born.

They've been an item for nearly a year. She must like the conversation, or something...!



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2894847/One-happy-New-Year-Bill-Maher-58-soaks-sun-bikini-clad-girlfriend-Anjulie-Persuad-31-Hawaii.html

[PCIntern]

128. Thinking the same thing...didn't have the picture...

you know, many many years ago the Philadelphia 76ers had a player named Darryl Dawkins. He was one of the first players to come into the NBA with no or next-to-no college and was a huge, and I mean HUGE, dominant player who was nationally famous for shattering the Plexiglass of a backboard during a nationally televised game. His nickname for himself was, "Chocolate Thunder". My employee, a black woman of great self-worth, refers to (unwanted) encounters with interested white men (she is very attractive), as "He wanted some chocolate for dessert, today." I would suppose that these individuals at some point figured out that they were black and they seem to be happy with that fact.

[Logical]

173. Thanks for this! nt

[One of the 99]

213. Proves nothing

Just because someone dates a person of another race doesn't mean they don't hold racist views of that race.

[MADem]

216. Oh, it proves something, it proves that

the guy is quite comfortable dating women of African or South Asian ancestry.

This woman is of Indian (i.e. same as Fareed Zakaria) heritage by way of Guyana and Canada. He's been seeing her for a year, so there must be something there.

[One of the 99]

222. So what?

That still doesn't mean he doesn't still hold racist views about people of her race or ancestry.

It is a very poor argument.

[MADem]

290. I'd suggest that it does, you're free to hold a different opinion if you like.

I don't see many Klansmen and Stormfronters at the annual NAACP convention, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough...?

[One of the 99]

296. Donald Sterling had a black girlfriend too

So it proves nothing!

[MADem]

312. Did he give a million dollars to a Democratic POTUS's campaign, too?

Didn't think so.

I see you.

[One of the 99]

322. No but the was a major contributor to the NAACP

for decades. He ever got an award from them. Yet Sterling was still a racist.

[MADem]

325. You introduced Sterling into this conversation--a man who doesn't have a talk show and, near as any

of us know, doesn't have a long and sustained "dating history." He has a wife who as much as said "That old man is craycray and needs a guardian."

No one gives a shit about Sterling, save you. He has nothing to do with Bill Maher. He dated a woman of mixed heritage who recorded him and then sold the material she recorded.

He's a loony old man with dementia, and you're comparing him to one of the most successful comedians on the circuit today. Why are you even making this comparison? What, precisely, are you trying to "prove?"

I see you.

[One of the 99]

329. Sorry, but

The argument was made that that Maher could not be a racist because he is dating an african-american and supported civil rights and donated to the President's campaign. Which in itself is a very weak argument.

You challenged this and asked the question:

I don't see many Klansmen and Stormfronters at the annual NAACP convention, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough...?

So then I brought up the example of Sterling to show that just because someone dates an african-american, donates to the NAACP and was even given an award by the NAACP. Yet he was still a racist.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm disproving the argument that Maher can't be a racist his is dating an african-american and because he has supported civil rights causes.

Sorry, that it upsets you so much.

[MADem]

330. You're not sorry at all.

And if you pull the string, the premise of this thread was that he was "racist" because he made comments about a religion.

Who knew "religion" and "race" were interchangeable terms?

I'm not upset at all--you see, I see you.

[One of the 99]

331. I'm sorry that

so many here are defending Maher for his racist and bigoted statement. Statements that if made by Dennis Miller or Rush or anyone on FAUX, the same people would be screaming bloody murder about.

I'm sorry that some would rather play semantics games and try to score cheap debating points rather than have a real discussion about racism and bigotry on the left.

I'm sorry that you're so upset.

[MADem]

332. He said nothing racist--"Islam" is not a race. It's a religion practiced by people of all races.

He made some derogatory comments about a world religion, but that's not uncommon for him. He is a harsh critic of ALL religions. He is not a believer and he makes that clear.

Watch his movie, his views are explained in it.

Dennis Miller or Rush or anyone on Faux would never say what Maher said, because their audience is fundamental Christians who wouldn't be happy listening to an atheist putting forward a view that their supreme being, the God of Abraham/Ibrahim, is a chimera.

I'm not upset at all, not sure why you would draw that wrong conclusion, I simply prefer accuracy to tiresome invention. Maher said nothing "racist" in that exchange, and seeing as he is a friend, employer and business partner of the Indian guy at the table (Fareed works on Bill Maher's VICE show) I rather doubt that Fareed was at all upset, either. Everyone is getting paid. Only a few DUers who didn't watch, or listen when they did watch, are not understanding what was said on that show.

[One of the 99]

334. It's not just about what he said about Islam

It's about his calling African-American guests 'Reverand' something he has never done to a white person. It's about calling the President 'Chocolate Jesus' on multiple times. It's about comments like this that perpetuate racist stereotypes: http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

Also, he has a double standard when it comes to attacking religion: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/bill-maher-says-islam-and-christianity-are-warlike-religions-but-israel-kicked-ass-in-its-little-war

And you are upset, don't deny it or you wouldn't keep replying. Your original point was that he couldn't be a racist because he has a black girlfriend and I proved that wrong with the Donald Sterling example. So now you've changed your argument to a silly semantics game which is not working either.

The shame here is that we should all be calling out racist and bigoted comments like Maher has made whether they come from a friend and ally or by people like Dennis Miller or Rush. Not to do so just enables racism and bigotry just like the do on FAUX.

[MADem]

338. Oh, don't be absurd.

If a brother or a sister has a divinity degree, they LIKE being called "Reverend." Anyone who knows a reverend or two knows this. I get the sense you're unclear on the pride associated in the community with that achievement.

"Chocolate Jesus" got a million bucks from Maher. That was a compliment, and the fact that you didn't "get" that indicates that you don't get this guy's schtick at all.

Apparently you've misplaced your irony meter, and had a humorectomy.

Further--he HATES religions--he has no "double standard" -- he hates it all. For someone commenting so robustly about the guy, you plainly know nothing of his work. He did a MOVIE telling us all how stupid he thinks religion is--you can probably find it at your local library. Israel is a "Jewish" STATE--the operative word being a state, a nation, with a standing military, a massive budget for it, and nuclear weapons. There is no "Islamic state" --at least not one with the same infrastructure and standing military, ISIS notwithstanding--so you are, in essence, criticizing a comparison that he did not make.

I reply because I abhor inaccuracy and naive, uniformed, keejerk "PC" commentary. That doesn't mean I am "upset" (though that's the go-to goad for people who can't argue their points, they get personal--so I suggest you should eschew that line or be noted for it). It means I have a certain level of impatience for absurd remarks that have no basis in fact. As anyone with a brain should have.

Comedy is dangerous. Maher is a comedian. If you can't bear him, cancel your HBO subscription or avoid him on Friday nights--I mean, really--get over it. For a supposedly "liberal" venue, that is supposed to have a broad acceptance of divergent views, your excoriation of this guy for his atheist beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs, however you want to phrase it) is intolerant in the extreme. You don't have to agree with the guy, but in the USA, we don't do that censorship thing.

And since you didn't take the point the first time, let me try again--Dennis Miller and Rush have, as their core audience, CHRISTIANS. Right wing, abortion hating, Jesus on a dinosaur loving CHRISTIANS. The difference between Maher and those two you keep bringing up is that Maher hates ALL religions, he's an equal opportunity hater--while your two little buddies you keep mentioning only hate one.

Now, if you want to toss everyone who hates religions out of the "liberal" club, you go right ahead and try--but I think you'd catch some noise from more than a few DUers who are robust atheists and share many of his views on the topic. In sum, you'd be looking at some pushback on that score.

[One of the 99]

342. Do you work for Maher?

I'm getting the feeling you must.

If a brother or a sister has a divinity degree, they LIKE being called "Reverend." Anyone who knows a reverend or two knows this. I get the sense you're unclear on the pride associated in the community with that achievement.

I've never heard that from any African-American I've ever known. When Maher called Michael Eric Dyson "Reverend:, Dyson looked like he was slapped in the face when Maher said it. So every African-American doesn't like being called "Reverend". And I use the term African-American, not "brother and sister". But that may explain why you're blind to Maher's racism.

"Chocolate Jesus" got a million bucks from Maher. That was a compliment, and the fact that you didn't "get" that indicates that you don't get this guy's schtick at all.

And Donald Sterling made big donations to the NAACP, they even gave him an award for it in 2009. So that argument proves nothing.

Further--he HATES religions--he has no "double standard" -- he hates it all. For someone commenting so robustly about the guy, you plainly know nothing of his work. He did a MOVIE telling us all how stupid he thinks religion is--you can probably find it at your local library. Israel is a "Jewish" STATE--the operative word being a state, a nation, with a standing military, a massive budget for it, and nuclear weapons. There is no "Islamic state" --at least not one with the same infrastructure and standing military, ISIS notwithstanding--so you are, in essence, criticizing a comparison that he did not make.

Again we are back to playing semantics games. I'm not sure if you're blind to Maher's double standard or just ingoring it because you are trying to score debating points.

I reply because I abhor inaccuracy and naive, uniformed, keejerk "PC" commentary. That doesn't mean I am "upset"

Could have fooled me.

It means I have a certain level of impatience for absurd remarks that have no basis in fact. As anyone with a brain should have.

So you are the arbitor of what is fact and what is not? That's news to me.

Comedy is dangerous. Maher is a comedian. If you can't bear him, cancel your HBO subscription or avoid him on Friday nights--I mean, really--get over it.

Get over racism and bigotry? Sorry can't do that. We have to call out racism and bigotry to fight it. Failure to do so just enables it.

And since you didn't take the point the first time, let me try again--Dennis Miller and Rush have, as their core audience, CHRISTIANS. Right wing, abortion hating, Jesus on a dinosaur loving CHRISTIANS. The difference between Maher and those two you keep bringing up is that Maher hates ALL religions, he's an equal opportunity hater--while your two little buddies you keep mentioning only hate one.

Ridiculous argument. The audience doesn't matter. The statements do. If Miller or Rush made the same racist or bigoted comments, they would (and should) be called out on it. So should Maher. Otherwise it is a double standard and moral relevancy.

Now, if you want to toss everyone who hates religions out of the "liberal" club, you go right ahead and try--but I think you'd catch some noise from more than a few DUers who are robust atheists and share many of his views on the topic. In sum, you'd be looking at some pushback on that score.

Atheists don't hate religion. They reject it but don't hate it. Maher's hatred of religions is very selective and in many ways factually innaccurate. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6488709

So if you hate inaccuracy as you claim, will you call out Maher's inaccuracies as Reza Aslan has?

[MADem]

345. This isn't about me, and no, I don't "work for Maher." What a foolish assumption.

I just don't like lousy, uninformed arguments, is all. If I wanted to play that petty little game, I could accuse you of working for Dennis Miller and Rush, seeing as you keep bringing them up in a thread that isn't even ABOUT them. But see, I don't do that, because making those kinds of personal "swipes" as a way to try to negate a person's comments is a cheap move. It reflects poorly on the person making the accusation.

I really think you want to pull the string on this thread--the reason I talk about Maher is because he's the SUBJECT of the doggone thread, not because I "work" for him.



I'm sorry that African Americans (and I'm getting the strong sense that you aren't one and don't know many, either) don't care to share with you their experience and views vis a vis their religious life, but I invite to wander into any AME church and call the Reverend running the joint by his first name. See what kind of reception you get. Your doubling down on this matter is uninformed, frankly and your lecturing tone a bit of a hoot. I will leave it at that because the only way you can learn is to go get some experience. If you can't manage to get some in real life, turn on Sharpton and listen to how many of his guests call him Reverend. Even when they get casual with him, they call him Reverend Al. It's a title that matters in the community and I get the strong impression that you don't have any roots in it (fwiw, I do).

You don't speak for all atheists--some atheists DO hate religion, and some of them have said as much right here on DU. And it's their right to hold that opinion, too, even if some might find it harsh.

There's no way Maher's attitudes can be "factually" anything--they're his opinions, after all. He's entitled to them. If you don't like them, pick up the remote and change the channel.

And you keep bringing up that "racism" word--again, Islam is not a race. Neither is "Arab." People of every race and ethnicity are both Muslims AND Arabs. It's as easy to be an Arab as it is to be an American--all you have to do is be raised in the culture and the region, and speak the language. Boom--you're an Arab. Being Arab is not about the Muslim religion, because plenty of Arabs are Christians, Jews, and other faiths or none at all.

[One of the 99]

346. Not foolish with all the time and effort you're putting into

making excuses for Maher's racist comments.

I just don't like lousy, uninformed arguments, is all.

If you don't, why don't you call out Maher on his lousy, uninformed arguments about Islam as Reza Aslan pointed out.

Will you hold Bill Maher to the same standard or continue to make excuses for his lousy, uninformed arguments?

I'll also point out that the "Maher can't be a racist because he has a black girlfriend" was a lousy, uniformed argument.

But see, I don't do that, because making those kinds of personal "swipes" as a way to try to negate a person's comments is a cheap move. It reflects poorly on the person making the accusation.

I'm sorry that African Americans (and I'm getting the strong sense that you aren't one and don't know many, either) don't care to share with you their experience and views vis a vis their religious life, but I invite to wander into any AME church and call the Reverend running the joint by his first name. See what kind of reception you get.

Wow first you say you don't take personal swipes, then you take a personal swipe.

Your doubling down on this matter is uninformed, frankly and your lecturing tone a bit of a hoot. I will leave it at that because the only way you can learn is to go get some experience. If you can't manage to get some in real life,

More personal swipes. Thought you didn't do that.

turn on Sharpton and listen to how many of his guests call him Reverend. Even when they get casual with him, they call him Reverend Al. It's a title that matters in the community and I get the strong impression that you don't have any roots in it (fwiw, I do).

The difference being that Al Sharpton is a Reverend, Michael Eric Dyson is not. So how is it appropriate to call Dyson "Reverend" or any other African-American who is not. It is a belittling comment that Maher only says to African-Americans, never to his white guests.

You don't speak for all atheists

And neither do you.

some atheists DO hate religion, and some of them have said as much right here on DU. And it's their right to hold that opinion, too, even if some might find it harsh.

Maybe some do. But most that I've known don't. And I never said that they didn't have a right to their opinion.

There's no way Maher's attitudes can be "factually" anything--they're his opinions, after all. He's entitled to them. If you don't like them, pick up the remote and change the channel.

Sure he his. But then I'm entitled to call him out for his racism and bigotry.

And you keep bringing up that "racism" word--again, Islam is not a race. Neither is "Arab." People of every race and ethnicity are both Muslims AND Arabs. It's as easy to be an Arab as it is to be an American--all you have to do is be raised in the culture and the region, and speak the language. Boom--you're an Arab. Being Arab is not about the Muslim religion, because plenty of Arabs are Christians, Jews, and other faiths or none at all.

And as I have pointed out it is not just his lousy, uniformed comments about Islam it is also racist comments to and about African-Americans. To end racism and bigotry, we have to call it out where ever is comes from and not excuse or deny it from people we like.

[MADem]

347. I'm not the one making detailed "TLDR" posts--YOU are.

You're the one who appears to be putting in a lot of time, here--not me.

Now, run along with your little strawmen and scenarios--you can find answers to all of your little points in already written material on this thread. I'm not going to continually re-iterate because you couldn't manage to take the point the first few times around.

[One of the 99]

348. But will you hold Maher to the same standard

on his lousy, uniformed arguments about islam?

Or at least explain how it is not racist for Maher to call Michael Eric Dyson "Reverend"?

[MADem]

349. We're done here--apparently you're the only one not figuring it out.

There's nothing to "defend" or "hold to a standard." Get over yourself--he's a comedian.

[One of the 99]

350. If we're done, why do you keep replying?

What am I not figuring out? I just want to know if you'll hold Maher to the same standard you say you hold everyone else. If you truely hate lousy, uninformed arguments, they you must also hate Maher's lousy, uninformed arguments on Islam.

And I'm still waiting for an explaination on how it is not racist to call Michael Eric Dyson "Reverend" when the man is a Scientist, not a Reverend.

[MADem]

352. You'll have to keep waiting. Buh-bye. nt

[One of the 99]

365. Then I guess you don't have an answer.

Not surprized.

[MADem]

366. I'd say YOU don't. Buh-bye!!!

[One of the 99]

367. Back again.

And with a nonsense response. Again not surprized. Your original point that Maher couldn't be a racist because he has a black girlfriend was proven bogus.

You claim that you hate lousy, inaccurate arguments but you refuse to hold Maher to the same standard for his lousy, inaccurate arguments against islam.

And you refuse to explain how Maher calling Michael Eric Dyson as well as many other African-American guest (but never whites) Reverend despite that none of them were Reverends, is not a racist comment.

[MADem]

368. Yes, you are "back again." Buh-bye! nt

[One of the 99]

369. You keep saying buh-bye but you keep coming back.

And yet still no answer to my questions.

[MADem]

370. As do you. See how that works? Buh-bye! nt

[One of the 99]

371. But I'm not saying buh-bye.

If you don't go away, you can't be missed.

[MADem]

372. Nor can you! Buh-bye! nt

[One of the 99]

373. Why should I?

I disproved your lousy, inaccurate argument that Maher couldn't be a racist because he has a black girlfriend with the Donald Sterling example.

I disproved your lousy, inaccurate argument that Maher calling an African-American guest "Reverend" isn't racist because Al Sharpton is a Reverend doesn't apply to those who are not a Reverend such as Michael Eric Dyson.

In fact I've shown that all your arguments defending Maher's racism are lousy and inaccurate arguments. As well as showing your double standard in not holding Maher to the same standard for his lousy and inaccurate arguments demonizing Muslims.

You're the one who keeps saying buh-bye (BTW that's from the 90s, you might want to consider something more contemporary) but yet you keep coming back.

[MADem]

374. I have no idea why you "should" do anything--and you disproved nothing! Buh-bye! nt

[One of the 99]

378. Yes I have.

That's why you don't even try to reply anyone more with your lousy, uniformed arguments and just post these silly one liners saying bye. Yet you keep coming back.

[MADem]

379. No, you haven't. Buh-bye! nt

[One of the 99]

380. You know I have

And it is driving you crazy.

[MADem]

381. I know you haven't. Poor you. Buh-bye!

[One of the 99]

382. That's just denial

That's why you can't let it go. You've been saying bye for 4 days now but keep coming back.

[arcane1]

252. You haven't proved he IS racist.

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

[One of the 99]

271. His own words do.

[arcane1]

272. No they don't. Only you do.

[One of the 99]

274. I didn't say this

“And you know why it’s so disappointing, I thought when we elected a black president, I thought two years in, I would be making jokes about “What a bad ass gangsta he was…”

Maher did. And this: http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

[arcane1]

276. Well then, I'm convinced!

Such Vile Racism!

[One of the 99]

277. I think that is called denial

Failure to call out racism is as bad as racism itself.

[hrmjustin]

18. I used to think he hated all religion equally but he is definitely an Islamaphobe.

[closeupready]

23. Oh yeah - so obvious; a 'water is wet' observation.

[hrmjustin]

25. I can't watch the man anymore. plus he is not even funny anymore.

[hrmjustin]

41. "Muslims are easr to hate these days" Not a very progressive response.

[Joel thakkar]

112. fyi

Bill has exposed the USA hypocrisy of bombing muslim countries and remain a strong opposer of war. He has expressed his views many times on this issue on his show. And yes, he has also expressed numerous times on how defence budget should be reduced. Thus, he agrees that "Anti-USA" and "Anti-West" chants in muslim countries are to be blamed at USA only..He was also disappointed when obama ordered air-strikes in Syria/Iraq and was delighted on hearing US-Iran deal.

[LiberalAndProud]

119. I probably shouldn't be surprised that you would say that.

I believe you also argued that the Charlie Hebdo attack had almost nothing to do with religion.

It seems too convenient to dismiss all criticisms of a radical, fundamentalist, violent theology with accusations of Islamophobia. I believe the accusation sheds no light on the discussion. It seem shortsighted and ignorant to provide cover for fundamentalist, radical zealots in favor of milquetoast tolerance for ideas that ought to be criticized.

[hrmjustin]

214. Provide a link where I argued that it had nithing to do with religion.

I'll wait.

[hrmjustin]

270. Still waiting for the link.

[PeteSelman]

28. You've got to be kidding, Bill ate his lunch.

Just as he did with Aflack before.

Islam is not a race. Maher is not a racist. What a silly notion.

[Hekate]

33. Bill Maher's shtick is getting old. As for Fareed Z, he is an intelligent and thoughtful man....

....and I enjoy his Sunday morning program very much.

[Dpm12]

34. I like Bill Maher

Real Time is one of my favorite shows.

[Brett Fitz]

35. Fellatio

[Warpy]

45. Not racist, just an ethnocentric prick.

Most Muslims hate what's happening just as much as Maher does. However, Zakaria made several good points and missed one, saying that in a lot of repressed societies, nutball Islam was the only way anyone could protest without being hauled off and shot immediately.

He missed the fact that Saudi Arabia has been exporting intolerant, fanatical Wahab Islam for decades, mostly to the poor in subsidized schools that teach it and little else. That plus government repression is what has led to the huge growth in the murderous gangs like al Qaeda. And don't forget, ISIS and al Qaeda have killed mostly Muslims.

Condemning all Muslims because of this is a loser's game. Maher needs to catch a couple of clues and put the blame where it belongs, and it's not on ordinary folks going about their business, mostly indistinguishable from garden variety Protestants.

Those are the people who will have to come together and secularize their governments, something that is going to have to happen anew here, too, since nutball Christians have gained so much power in ours.

[valerief]

49. Maher didn't talk about race. He spoke about RELIGION.

Get your facts straight.

[akbacchus_BC]

59. Bill Maher is not a racist, on the other hand,

be careful of Fareed Zakaria, he is not whom you think he is! I may be wrong, but isn't he the person who was supposed to protect Michael Jackson after his interview with Jackson?

[peequod]

64. I think you're thinking of Martin Bashir

I think Bashir rightfully exposed Jackson as at least a potential pedophile.

[akbacchus_BC]

66. Thanks for the clarification. I still believe that

Michael was not a pedophile! He was not allowed to be a child when he was a child but we will have to agree to disagree. I just love Michael and his music is awesome.

[peequod]

337. Ok, his music was indeed awesome

..and he was very charitable, he gave a lot of money to charity.

[AtomicKitten]

76. No, he's not racist. Antireligion, but not racist. /nt

[JonLP24]

85. He really is

Rula Jebreal to Bill Maher: “When you talk about Islam in a certain way… some people feel threatened”

Bill Maher Destroyed Again And Again By Reza Aslan

[Joel thakkar]

98. Lol..this is funny

1) Islam is not a race. It is a religion. Thus, i don't think he is racist. If you say he is anti-religion, it should be a compliment.

2) Fareed Zakaria actually agreed with him on many points and said "Islam has a cancer in it"..

3) Fareed also agreed on the pew research surveys that maher cites often and said that he will agree to the survey finding and not dispute it.

3) Only thing Fareed disagreed with Bill was that : the method from which the cancer should be removed from Islam. He said telling people : "your religion is motherload of shit and craziness" is not the best way. From what i get, fareed wants muslim to reform their religion and throw away fanatical ideas. While, on the other hand, Bill thinks that religion itself is a bad concept and would be better if muslims became atheist or more like salman rushdie or taslima nasreen.

4) If you are so glad with "Fareed Zakaria's" stand on this issue..you will love how he is a self proclaimed "pro" capitalist who always spews his agenda for drastic cuts in social security, medicare and tax cuts for the big companies.

5) Just because bill makes anti-islam or anti-Christianity comment...doesn't mean that he is not anti-Hinduism or anti-Buddhism..both religons are not mainly in news in USA...while Christianity and Islam is..

6) His "Chocolate Jesus" may be taken literally or in context of joke..but don't forget he was a strong supporter of obama, both in 2008 and 2012. He also donated $1 Million for obama Super Pac in 2012 and yes, he has always stood for black rights..whether it in Ferguson or Chicago or in any deep south town..He also criticized cops arresting/beating/shooting black people and always stands for drug reforms and legalization which helps the black community..Oh yes, a racist who is also dating black woman...she must be attracted to him due to his racist anti-black stands..right ?

7) Few peoples quote his old interview with Israel president "Netanyahu" and says he is a Zionist and anti-muslim...but if those people had time to see latest episode where he specifically said with senator elizabeth warren - "We are Pro-Israel but not like conservatives/republican". He said in the context where he and warren both supports the "US-Iran" deal and don't oppose it like Israel's prime minister "Netanyahu" or Republicans.

8) He also said that "Hillary has my vote but not my money" and offered $1 Million to Senator warren if she runs for presidency. Thus, nice way to alienate a guy who has supported obama in his last 2 campaigns and supports senator warren who is a true liberal unlike hillary who is more of a centrist.

9) Also, he has also exposed american hypocrisy by bombing one by one muslim country and then expecting them not to chant "anti-american" slogans. He has always said that USA should stay out of middle east war and middle eastern countries should solve the problem on their own.

10) Also the argument that Muslims feel threatened by the way bill maher speaks is bull-shit...yeah as if he is beheading them like isis or discriminating them in any way or threatening to kill them / blow them up.. He is not even protesting against anyone..while muslims protested against him during that "Berkeley" incident.

11) Also, a bigot is a person who cannot tolerate opposing views..if he is a bigot, why he keeps on inviting people like fareed, ben affleck, rula jebreal, reza aslam on his show when he knows that they will have opposing views ? It is a proof that he likes to have a debate with people who have opposing views. This is a virtue of a liberal and completely opposite to a bigot. Oh and by the way, his famous and most intense critic "Reza Aslam" is a good friend of him in real life and he personally has said that bill is not a bigot.

[RiverLover]

138. Thanks for a great post & some rationality on this ridiculous OP.

[romanic]

154. Excellent post.

I've always respected Bill Maher. He's an asshole yes, but he's always been the type of liberal that holds no punches and says what's on his mind without filtering it to be "PC". A rare breed among the left these days I think.

[m-lekktor]

193. excellent post! Fareed Zakaria ain't no lefty, that's for sure. nt

[TheBlackAdder]

200. Joel, YOU WON THIS THREAD! It was funny for a bit, then it revealed a saddening reality. nt

[kcr]

212. A bigot is someone who hates a person because of something intrinsic to that person

not because of how they behave. Hating someone because of their views does not make one a bigot. Those who hold that definition of bigot tend to be the ones who hold vile, indefensible views.

[Joel thakkar]

215. Intrinsic

Intrinsic = belonging naturally and yes, naturally all children are born atheist..they are pushed into religion by their parents..not by nature...Thus, criticizing religions is not bigoted as it was not with them when they were born..that view and mindset was provided to them (without their consent when they were child) by their parents. I agree that parents has a right to decide how they want to raise their child but adults can criticize religion when they become mature enough to understand it.

Also, i think if you criticize one religion and praise other religion (esp. the one in which you were raised), you are a bigot. (so i consider all republicans fundamental Christians as bigot as they criticize Islam but praise Christianity. )

[kcr]

259. Someone's religion is intrinsic, though.

The argument that people can choose their religion is used to rationalize bigotry, of course. But unless one is judging the actions of a person, it is bigotry. I'm sure that atheists feel that people are bigoted when they judge them as well and they would be right.

[whatthehey]

333. How is religion intrinsic exactly?

Would a Muslim child born in Indonesia but adopted and raised by Norwegian Lutherans inevitably and without external pressure become a devoited Muslim? For religion to be intrinsic and not the result of external pressure and indoctrination, that would have to be the guaranteed outcome.

The child will surely grow up with different skin coloring and facial structure from its adopted parents, because such things are genuinely intrinsic. That's the difference.

[One of the 99]

220. Racism and bigotry are never funny

And to address your points.

1) Whether it is called racism or bigotry it is still bad and wrong.
2 & 3) While Zakaria did agree on some things, his major point was that Maher was unfairly the whole religion and all of its followers.

4) Zakaria views on other issues has nothing to do with this. I don't change my view on an issue based on the people that agree with me and those who disagree.

5) Maher is selectively anti-religion. http://mondoweiss.net/2012/12/bill-maher-says-islam-and-christianity-are-warlike-religions-but-israel-kicked-ass-in-its-little-war

6) Go back to the clips it always wasn't in the context of a joke. If Rush had made the same comment would anyone give him a pass on it? And no racist has ever dated a black women before??? That logic is what is laughable.

7) The Iran nuke deal is totally irrelevant to this topic. But nice try as a diversion.

8) So because he shares your opinion of Clinton and Warren, you're willing to give him a pass on his racist comments. Nice moral relativism. I wonder if you'd defend him so vigorously if he disagreed with you.

9) Great but again that is not the issue here. Another weak attempt at diversion.

10) Never said muslims feel threatened by him. But that doesn't excuse his racist and bigoted comments. BTW loved the part about the beheadings and isis, worthy of a FAUX news host.

11) No that is your definition of a bigot. A bigot is someone who stubbornly holds on to their prejudices even when facts prove them wrong. Which perfectly describes Maher.

[Joel thakkar]

236. Yes, racism and bigory are never funny and maher did none of it

1) So you agree that it is not racism, right ? Now according to you bigot is someone who holds their views when facts prove them wrong. Bill thinks pew surveys are facts and even fareed didn't disputed it. Thus, now tell me who is a bigot when bill and fareed both agrees on pew survey ?

2 and 3) Zakaria's main point was Maher's method of reforming muslims and islam religion is not right, while his method is right. Both of them have many similar goals , just have different method in mind of achieving it.

He says to maher that IF YOU REALLY WANT TO CHANGE ISLAM RELIGION , speak in some sort of "respect" for the spirituality value that people take. That's it...you can look at the whole segment :

Never did he said that "Maher was unfairly the whole religion and all of its followers"...even when bill says : suppose it is social club which says "women are 2nd class citizens" "gay people should be put to death"...Fareed quickly says : but that's not all 1.6 Billion people and BILL SAYS "NOT ALL". THUS, HE IS CLEARLY NOT TARGETING ALL THE FOLLOWERS OF THE RELIGION.

After that fareed says he is not disputing the pew survey figures...Btw, the most recent survey done by Pew is of 2013 and not in 2011 (as claimed by fareed)..thus, even if it was done in 2011, it was not one time.

After that bill asks you don't think it is a widespread belief in muslim word that death is appropriate punishment for leaving religion...Fareed said "I don't know" because i didn't conduct the survey...

Now here is the survey finding :



You can dispute the numbers but fareed has said he himself is not disputing the numbers.

Fareed after gives example of Indonesia, a muslim majority country where minorities are living happily :

Indonesia Religious Persecution :
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2011/02/religious_persecution_indonesia

Indonesia, the great country where 72% muslims support sharia :



Indonesia, the great country where 93% think wife should obey her husband



Thus, fareed himself contradicts when he says he is not disputing pew survey numbers and quote "indonesia" as an example islamic majority country. I am not saying that all countries are supporting sharia, women as 2nd class citizens but it is spreaded about quite a few muslims and to turn a blind eye on it is foolish. Similar goes for all religion majority countries and not only islam.

After, that fareed shifts the goal post to "Arab Countries" and says the problem is there. Yes, the problem of Jihadism, ISIS, Killings, Bombing etc is there is "Arab Countries" but that doesn't take away the fact that 72% of indonesian muslims prefer sharia law and 93% of them considers wife should obey her husband.

Now fareed again says cancer in islam but the basic difference in us is how we will fix it..that's it..where does he says you are treating islam and muslims unfairly ? He just says your method is not changing those people.

Now bill says, some things that ISIS believes is supported by hundreds of millions of muslims all around...Suddenly fareed says to say that 100s of millions believe the same thing as ISIS is not true..sudenly Maher says he is not talking about beheading/burning people alive etc..he says they believe "IF YOU MAKE FUN OF THE PROPHET DEATH IS WHAT COMES TO YOU"

yes, and the same thing happened in Jan 2015..Thousands and thousands people protest against Charlie Hebdo in Pak and many other countries for making fun of prophet

http://time.com/3672871/charlie-hebdo-pakistan/

Don't you think these thousands of muslims would have thought that Charlie hebdo journalists got what they deserved as they made fun of prophet ?

Now, fareed says do these people go around burning people or killing it like charlie hebdo terrorist did ? He again missed the point. Bill said these thousand of people won't go on killing spree but they will be happy that few people killed those charlie hebdo journalists as they insulted prophet and fareed again continue that these people are not stoning people to death by missing the main point that they won't actually kill or they will say "Charlie Hebdo" asked for his death for insulting the prophet.


4) Yeah..i know..many people will do that..previously i have seen users here quoting "Gay-hating" conservative organizations just to prove how prostitution is bad..some people will quote some random quote from the other side of aisle to prove their point.

5) Here is the source interview : http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/bill_maher_on_israel_uncut_and_uncensored

The question was asked that why you make less fun of judaism..He answers : he did it in our documentary "religulous" and says it is not a warlike religion like Christianity or Islam...Maybe he is true..maybe he is not..i did make a post here on DU saying that i agree with his view that all religions are bullshit (including Judaism, to which he did make fun in the documentary) but i don't agree with the view that islam is more moronic and has a special place : http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026473305

6) As i said in my previous post, you can take it literally..not always as joke..even if you take it literally, see his actions where he has always stand with black people..he supported obama twice, millions of $$ for donation, ferguson, chicago, legal reforms for helping black community etc..etc..and yes, many white racist people don't even want a black person around them, let alone date one. And also the girl is 31 years old..she is completely able to understand by herself is bill maher is racist or not.

7)Yes, it is relevant as someone here quoted his video interview with israel president.. (subtle hint that he is zionist and anti-muslim)...yes, i just pointed out how good pro-zionist, pro-netanyahu bill maher is happy with the iran deal which zionist and netanyahu opposed.

8) No, who are you to decide if it is a racist comment or not ? Do you have any survey findings ? Is your survey company trusted and old ? I just pointed out that PC people usually alienate supporters of them just on silly issues...Now you may try to also spin that i said "racism" is silly issue, which is not what i said. We fundamentally disagree on if he is a racist person or not.

9) Not diversion, just answering some other person in the thread, so says he is anti-muslim etc..etc..yeah..he is suck an anti-Muslim that he will always strive for not raging a war with muslim countries...have friends like reza aslam etc..etc

10) Never said that the reply was only for you..i have answered multiple users in one reply...again, he has not made any racist or bigoted comments. Does majority of US population, media, politicians agree with you that he has made any racist comment ? Have you seen any popular black peoples movement against bill maher ? Heck, more people on DU disagree with you than agreeing with you..and yes, isis/beheading part is completely true..Isis beheads shias, ahmaddiyas, bohra and even sunnis if they don't agree on few issues..( now don't spin it and say that previously i said that majority of muslims agree with isis, that is on sharia and women as 2nd class citizens issue, not on beheading/burning). Thus, muslims around the world would feel threatened by isis. Faux news will actually report that muslims around the love isis and esp. on those beheading/burning issues..thus, what i said is exactly opposite from faux news would report.

11) Google agrees with my definition :



But let's say i accept your definition too. Bill maher states his views on FACTS - PEW Surveys. Do you have any counter survey from a reputed survey organization which proves Pew survey wrong ? I think you should contact other reputed survey companies and tell them to do the exact same surveys. See, if they have same findings or different.

[One of the 99]

302. Yes he did.

Racism and bigotry are wrong and Maher is guilty of both.

He is demonizing a whole religion and its 1.6 billion followers. That was the point Zakaria was making the other night. Maher uses the PEW poll to justify his bigotry not because of it. I refuse to demonize anyone based on a survey.

Maher has also made racist comments on more than one occasion: calling the President "Chocolate Jesus" thoughout 2008, belittling African American guests by calling them "Reverend" (something he has never once done to a white guest) and then there is this:

“And you know why it’s so disappointing, I thought when we elected a black president, I thought two years in, I would be making jokes about “What a bad ass gangsta he was…”

And this: http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

Of course he has donated to worthy causes but that does not excuse his racism. Donald Sterling was a big contributor to the NAACP and even won an award from the organization (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/clippers/2014/04/28/donald-sterling-clippers-naacp-alice-huffman/8411441/) but the man was still a racist.

Now some may want to give him a pass because he agrees with them on certain issues or supports the same political candidates that they do, but that is just wrong. The denial of racism and bigotry is wrong because it is enables it. The only way to fight racism and bigotry is to call it out from whomever spews it, be it a friend or an enemy.

[Joel thakkar]

318. Who are you to decide ?

More people on DU thinks he has not done any thing which is racist or bigot. (Just look at this thread's Rec and my thread's Rec in support of Bill Maher)

I don't see any widespread media campaign or movement from black community against bill maher.

Also, i explained to you scene and scene what happened in the show with fareed and he was not making any point of demonizing a whole religion and all of its followers. I you had read my above reply, you will be able to understand better. I don't think you will understand it better if i post same thing all over again.

Also, you need to understand the difference between joke and being taken literally. "What a bad ass gangsta he was" is a SIMPLE JOKE. JOKE are sometimes stereotyping. I have seen many jokes made on my race by "Russell Peters"..so do i get offended and literally think he is a racist person or laugh my ass off ? Of-course, i do the later one because i understand that it was a FUCKING JOKE.

Donald Sterling is not a professional comedian, bill maher is! Anyways, i don't see any more value in discussing this issue with you.

Thanks!

[One of the 99]

324. It's my opinion, deal with it.

And who are you to decide? You seem to think that you are the holder of ultimate truth on this subject and that only you are right.

And it is not a matter of a poll. At one time most people thought the world was flat. Were they right? Twenty years ago most were against same sex marrige. Were they right?

Bill Maher gets a pass on his racist and bigoted statements because of people like you who deny that his bigotry and defend him the same way FAUX news anchors deny and defend racism and bigotry on the right.

I don't need your explaination of what happened on the show, I saw it. You're spin on it is just your spin, nothing more.

Maher is not just a comedian, he's a political commentator who goes on sunday shows. Rush calls himself an entertainer and comedian too and uses the excuse some if his vile comments.

Wow you really missed the point about Donald Sterling. Maher may have a black girlfriend and gave to the President's campaign. That doesn't prove that he's not a racist. Sterling had a black girlfriend and contributed to the NAACP for years. But he was still a racist. Get the point now?

As I said before, racism and bigotry needs to be called out regardless of who it comes from, even if it is from a friend. Failure to do so just enables it.

[arcane1]

253. Bingo. It's amazing how people will twist and turn to make this something sinister.

It's embarrassing.

[B Calm]

101. So now when you put down religions your racist?

[LiberalAndProud]

122. ... and guilty of cultism

evidently.

[B Calm]

125. Bill did mention how crazy the PC police can get.

[Warren Stupidity]

176. new rules.

[Tommy2Tone]

163. Bill is anti Islam

but he is also anti any religion.

I'm kinda right there with him since religion is destroying the planet.

[Paladin]

165. Bill Maher used to be an entertainer. He's no longer entertaining. The end. (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

198. You better tell that to the swiftly sold out concert hall full of people coming to see him this week

in my town. And those in the other dozens of towns he fills each year, his HBO audience in the millions should also get a heads up from you. That's a lot of people suffering from the misapprehension they are being entertained.

[Paladin]

206. I've watched Maher's shows for years.

As long as I found him entertaining, I tuned in. I'm walking away from him now because his anti-Islamic and anti-PC proselytizing has sucked up way too much of his considerable talents as an entertainer and commentator. Other people are certainly free to attend his concerts and continue watching his show. I choose to do otherwise, and I would appreciate your respecting my decision in this regard.

[Logical]

219. I will inform the media. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

226. Of course I respect your personal taste and nothing I said suggested otherwise. You did not

make a statement about you no longer being entertained, you said he used to be an entertainer, now he's not, The End. You are free to have your opinion and to use heavy handed editorial language to attempt to spread that opinion, but it's just your opinion so don't expect others to agree with you or to allow you to make Regent like proclamations uncontested. It's a discussion board.
Try this. What comics working today do you find to be entertaining? Let's see if they meet MY standards and go from there, shall we? You might think you are being entertained by someone who is really not funny at all. Who are your favorite comics? Don Rumsfeld? YoYo Ma? Carrot Top?

[Paladin]

228. Way too much hostile judgment from you.

You start off by trying to put me in my place with an "it's just your opinion" decree, then you demand that I submit personal preference data to you, for your review and approval. See the problem, there? And that "Rumsfeld/YoYo Ma/Carrot Top" flourish at the end is a dead giveaway that you've ingested way too much of Bill Maher's recent output. You don't like my opinions? So fucking what? Like you say, it's a discussion board.

[Bluenorthwest]

234. Where is the judgement? I'm asking you what comics you find funny. You have no respect for me

so you refuse to engage and continue to preach. You are telling me I've ingested too much Bill Maher, but I'm being judgmental? You know nothing about me, yet you pronounce that which I must and must not do, call me out for imagined excesses and all of that to avoid a simple question.
Try skipping all the personal attacks and discuss this. Which comics do you find to be entertaining?

[Paladin]

239. Sorry, you haven't earned any further right to critique my preferences.

Let's do one another a big favor and consider this discussion ended.

[Bluenorthwest]

240. Wow. There was no discussion to end, just you pontificating and making personal attacks at me.

All of you who are criticizing Maher seem incapable of discussing the subject at. Can't name a comic you like, if asked you get surly and defensive. Creepy.

[Stellar]

174. Bills audience will certainly let you know whose side they're on by the applause.

I heard very little applause by either side on the argument...Bill or Fareed. I believe it was because Bills' fans didn't want to make it a negative against or for Bill. They probably felt the same way that you did about Bill and were surprised by his apparent hatred of all those people and their religion.

[Warren Stupidity]

175. What I learned from this fabulous thread:

1. you can choose your race.
2. you cannot choose your religion.

DU is a whole sea of stupidity at times.

[PeaceNikki]

217. mmm hmm

[Dr. Strange]

229. True, but it is GD on the weekend.

Although this:

1. you can choose your race.
2. you cannot choose your religion.

really does seem to be veering into moonbombing-level stupidity.

[Mosby]

231. lol

[LostOne4Ever]

265. This post wins the thread (nt)

[riderinthestorm]

303. Yup nt

[cbayer]

184. The vile misogyny he exhibited before this should have been a clue.

He's just another talking head that will say whatever he needs to to get and keep his audience.

[truebrit71]

335. Yawn...

He is actually a very funny comedian. I know you hate him because he's an atheist, but he gives ALL religions the short-shrift they deserve, not just islam. Check out Religulous. That should make it clearer to you.

And as for this most recent episode of Real Time, I watched it again in light of the many threads claiming he was 'schooled' by Zakaria and I just don't see it. What i DID see was a spirited and lively debate.

YMMV

[Enrique]

185. yes he is

in the loose sense of racist that means bigot. I hear all these things he says about Muslims and it seems to pretty much boil down to the fact that he doesn't like them.

[Shoulders of Giants]

189. You can say he's anti Islam, but Islam is not a race.

Also, its not like picks exclusively on Islam. He has been trashing Christianity for decades now, and even made a documentary about religion that trashed mainly Christianity (With about 5 minutes at the end to try to include the other religions). You may not like what he is doing, but I fail to see the racism.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

237. My gawd, what a stupid thread. Who gives a shit, anyway? Wasting all this time and energy

talking about a comedian. Hey, I've an idea!: How about we discuss Bill Maher and his schtick all day! Fuck that other stuff, I'm enraged at Bill Fucking Maher!

[Bluenorthwest]

242. Zakaria is a conservative. It's unusal to see a Union avatar endorsing his Union busting ass.

His recent trash talking of pubic sector Unions is worthy of Scott Walker. Something to think about.

[One of the 99]

245. So what?

Just because he is a conservative doesn't mean he is automatically wrong on this issue. Hitler was a vegitarian and against smoking so should we all smoke and eat meat to be anti-Hitler?

[Major Nikon]

288. Great idea! Let's start channeling Coulter, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly

They can't possibly be wrong 100% of the time and might just have some relevant retorts to Democrats as well.

[One of the 99]

297. Irrelevant

Nonsense response.

[One of the 99]

299. Maher is anti-union too

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/03/14/708343/-Bill-Maher-Has-Got-It-Wrong

[Bluenorthwest]

309. Bill Maher is a Union Member. Are you?

nt

[One of the 99]

310. Only because he is forced to be to work

And yes I am. Are you?

[LostOne4Ever]

317. Oh so all the pro union stuff he says on Real time does not exist?

and it really brings up the point, how bad does income inequality got to get before unions disappear altogether. Because if that is where the chart is going then I hate to think where the middle class is going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=240&v=_ERBVsG_jG4

"Because with a record wealth gap we need unions now more than ever. When American had a thriving middle class more than 1 in 3 workers was in a union. Now its one in ten."

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Just because he has some criticism of some unions (mainly police and teacher unions) does not make him anti-union. He has talked about the decline of unions and the american working class multiple multiple times.

Not like many pro-union people here on DU weren't criticizing the NYPD police union when it was accusing the Mayor of NY of having "blood on his hands" or insisting that when someone says they can't breathe that obviously can breathe. That does not make them anti-union, it means they have a particular criticism of THAT union or THAT policy.

Here Maher is promoting socialism which is....pro-union:[/font]

[One of the 99]

323. I give him credit for that

but he has also made anti-union statements. Either way it still doesn't excuse him for his racist and bigoted comments.

[arcane1]

251. And I'm sure you have abundant examplpes of this "vile racism", right?

This shit gets old after a while. Nice to see other posters pointing out the absurdity.

[One of the 99]

340. How about this...

Maher: “And you know why it’s so disappointing, I thought when we elected a black president, I thought two years in, I would be making jokes about “What a bad ass gangsta he was…”

And this: http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

[arcane1]

343. LOL that's the best you can do?

Look, you got your mega-thread. Mission accomplished. There's no need to go down swinging.

[One of the 99]

344. No

How about calling African-American guests "Reverend" or the President "Chocolate Jesus"? Racism is no laughing matter. Ignoring it just enables it.

[wheniwasincongress]

256. Funny and sad how

a comedic show on HBO always has the best political discussions anywhere on TV.

[joeybee12]

261. KNR to counter the pro-bigots here today...

Maher is also homophobic and sexist.

[One of the 99]

269. Thank!!!

[Arugula Latte]

263. Religion is not the same as race/skin color!

People choose to believe in mythology, whether it's Islam, Christianity, whatever.

Would you say that people who oppose Republicanism are "racists" too?

[One of the 99]

268. Wow the semantics police are out in force.

[delrem]

281. It'd be great if they had a clue about the subtlety of the terminology,

esp. in the 15th year of a "War on Terror" that has now totally engulfed the ME and that, I now hear, has killed over a million so-called "Islamic Terrorists" (along with collateral damage, of course - our smart bombs are smart, ethical, the epitome of justice, but you know what they say about having to break some eggs to make an omelette). Over a million. Not reaching Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia proportions quite yet, but getting there in its own unrelenting righteous way.

For my alert stalkers: The following is


But then, we civilized modern westerners know that unlike us the Muslims have been killing each other for centuries, and that's the true explanation for this ongoing slaughter. We civilized westerners with our superior western values know that the problem is that there are too few moderate Muslims in a sea of crazies. We civilized westerners with our superior western values sympathize with moderate Muslims, and moderate rebels. They are most like us, and they are the ones we arm - which is why they are "moderate". We civilized westerners with our superior western values know that our politicians are OK, honest, secular folk, and the problem is the mullahs. We know who is guilty, not us with our superior civilization and ethics, it's the mullahs. Just the word 'mullah' proves it. We civilized westerners with our superior western values know that the entire black site kidnap-torture system was a few bad apples, and doesn't represent anything like an actual plan, an actual systematic program. That has to be true because we're civilized and have western values, and because the arabs, I mean muslims, I mean Islamic Terrorists, I mean the enemy in the great and unending War on Terror, are the ones stuck in the 14th century with their mullahs and their barbarism, who do the torturing and murdering. The terrorizing. Not us. We civilized westerners with our superior western values would never lie to the world just to start a war against an innocent population. That couldn't be. Uh uh. We were fooled, we were tricked! And it was a previous administration.

[Major Nikon]

287. Probably because the semantics matter

One can hate religion without hating religious people. There is no parallel with race.

[One of the 99]

298. Tell that to Maher

[Major Nikon]

300. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026488109#post297

[Bluenorthwest]

308. Hey, Straight Person, the 'semantics' of that which is a choice and that which is an inborn

characteristic has been used by Straight Society to excuse the mistreatment of LGBT people. This claim that religions, which can be changed, discarded, or kept according to whim are inborn characteristics is being made by religions, which insist that being gay is chosen.
It's far too late for Straights and the religious to whine about semantics around what is and what is not a choice. Far too late.

[One of the 99]

311. I agree

And since I said nothing about the mistreatment of LGBT people, I'm wondeing why you replied to me.

[mimi85]

286. Well, duh!

Of course they're not - something most people have known since the sixth grade.

Back to Bill Maher. He's a bigot, a homophobe, somewhat of a sexist and I can probably come up with a few more. I do not believe he's a racist, although he (or his writers) have written some not funny "likes" about Obama.

And I wish he'd quit bringing up the million dollars he sent to the Obama PAC; Elizabeth Warren didn't care.

[rainmaker21]

306. Fareed is good.

But I'm not sure that Bill Maher is that bad.

[beaglelover]

307. No, he's not. Fareed Zakaria was saying it's Bill's job to change the minds of people about Muslims

No, it's the moderate Muslims like Fareed Zakaria to change the minds of people. It is his religion that is getting a bad name by the extremists in his own religion....and I loved how Fareed Zakaria never said 'no, gays should not be put to death for being gay'.....he just couldn't say it because he probably believes that gays should be killed just for being gay. He's such a moderate Muslim. Asshole.

[SamKnause]

327. I have to side with Bill on this one.

[KamaAina]

336. Fareed was a year behind me at Yale

My fondest memory of him was the time Raygun's defense secretary Cap Weinberger addressed the Political Union, of which he was president. Needless to say, a whole bunch of students decided to exercise their First Amendment rights by protesting. Fareed was having none of it. He pointed the protesters out one by one, with what looked an awful lot like a Heil Hitler salute, and had them removed.

Imagine my surprise when he emerged years later as one of a tiny handful of sane, reasonable voices on the right.

[MADem]

339. Ha ha ha --Cap "If they nail me, I'm taking ALL OF YOU BASTARDS DOWN WITH ME" Weinberger!!!!

That guy was like a mob boss! He sure didn't LOOK the part, but he played it to perfection!

GHW Bush probably never signed another pardon so damn FAST in his life!!!



Great anecdote about Fareed, BTW--I can just PICTURE it!!!

I remember seeing footage of old Cap at the Oxford student union--but if anyone filmed the Yale encounter, that would be some swell must-see TV!

[NCTraveler]

341. Biggot? Absolutley. Asshole? Absolutley.

Arrogant? Beyond words. Sexist? Sure thing. Still not sure about racist even though they do all seem to come together. Complete asshole kind of covers is.

[samsingh]

351. for the most part he's telling it like it is. i don't think he's a racist

[One of the 99]

364. No he not

He is demonizing 1.6 Billion people with very generalized and inaccurate information.

[B Calm]

353. Why are you so afraid of Bill Maher that you have to make up crap about him? Is

it his liberal agenda that upsets you?

[One of the 99]

362. Not making up anything.

His own words speak for themselves.

http://gawker.com/5551249/bill-maher-wants-obama-to-act-like-a-real-black-president-with-guns-and-stuff

[LynneSin]

360. I was turned off about what he said about Moderate Christians

He made a comment about new rules about Christianity and honestly, I no longer want to even bother watching his show or supporting him.

I get it - he's an Athiest. But as a Christian I still watched him because I thought we were on the same page when it came to the Fundamentalist Christians out there. Turns out Bill Maher is nothing more than a stupid narrow-minded Athiest who would rather be insultive to all Christians then understand the vast difference in our faith. It would be like me walking up to any random Muslim I see on the street and start berating them for what happened on 9/11. I'm smart enough to distinguish that the Muslim faith has extremists and most Muslims were disgusted by what happened on 9/11. Yet watching what Bill Maher said about 'moderates' in the Christian faith showed just how ignorant he is and how he is bad for progressives all around.

Essentially Bill Maher assumed that the Bible is a book that Christians are suppose to follow everything to it's exact meaning and that everything that occured in the bible is a part of the Christian Faith.

If that is what he believes the Bill Maher is about as ignorant as they come and perhaps he should just stop talking about religion if he refuse to actually have any basic knowledge of how Christianity works.

Old Testament - that was BEFORE CHRISTIANITY. Jesus wasn't even born then. Remember we were named after Jesus Christ who was born sometimes in Matthew which was the first book in the NEW TESTAMENT. SO talking about Sodom and Gommorah like it's some important part of the Christian Faith - it isn't. The Old Testament is nothing more than the history of our faith evolved of how things were before Jesus came along and defined what things were to be like as Christians. And if Maher actually read about what Jesus did - even he didn't obey those laws of Leviticus. He worked on the Sabbath, he refused to stone the adulterer (in fact he challenged the others about stoning her by saying 'Those without sin let them cast the first stone').

As for the other books, that was Paul, the faith wasn't named after him.

As far as I am concerned Maher is a joke and one we do not need to help the progressive cause.

The comment Bill had made was that moderate Christians were hijacking the Christian faith trying to make it more inclusive. Then used Sodom and Gommrah as an example of how it isn't.

[odd_duck]

375. People argue...

about race being a social construct. One positive thing about race is the various foods involved. In Buffalo, there is the annual Polish and Italian festivals, and boy do I love the Polish food!!!

[One of the 99]

377. Great Point!!!! NT

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

376. So what else is new? BM has been showin his true racist colors for a while now.